Tower Speakers - Need help replacing

[EarmarkMarine]

There certainly is nothing wrong with Brian's system design approach and that works for many people.
After having a dedicated marine division since the late 90s and after installing several thousand boat systems we appraoch it differently at least in how I would describe it.
We normally treat the subwoofer as part of the in-boat zone just like a woofer in a three-way system. Why? First, because in most moderate systems its not practical to drive the subwoofer to the level that it can project to the rider at wake range. In most moderate systems the woofer and amplifier would be over-driven not to mention that the in-boat occupants that would object to that much SPL in their face for any duration. Second, when lounging behind the boat for any period at rest it takes an inordinate amount of power to drive a sub from out of the bathtub, so to speak, away from the boat when the listeners are below the deck cap down at water level. So many people go easy on the sub in this scenario to conserve battery power. Lastly, we are very focused on sound quality in the boat so we always try to maintain a very balanced in-boat sub/satellite system in respect to the product and in the tuning process. The tower speakers are often used so differently that we address this as a different and independent zone. Plus, we would prefer that boaters select larger tower speakers with a warmer balance so that they at least capture enough bandwidth to simulate fullrange. To a degree we do consider the ambient radiation from the tower speakers in the boat.
Now there are definite exceptions. There are those boaters were we design and build their system specifically to entertain others at the sandbar or dock. They usually want the entire musical range including the bass to project along with the tower speakers for several boat lengths away in a dominant fashion. Under those circumstances with a very powerful system we do have to consider the subwoofer in unison with the tower speakers. It takes four times the power to reproduce one octave lower bass at the same amplitude and it takes four times the power to double the distance at the same amplitude so with those types of challenges this isn't an approach for a moderate budget system. And in that case you are looking at a mighty big sub and enclosure, mighty big sub amplifier and a mighty big battery bank.

David
Earmark Marine

[MLA]

John,

To me, it sounds like you have 3 issues going on.1) under powered tower speakers, 2) poorly tuned system, and 3) a short in the in-boat system putting the zx700.5 into protect mode.

My approach would be this. get what you have performing to its optimal level, then reevaluate.

For number 1, an amp change would be in order, but I would do number 2 (no pun intended) first for the tower. No matter the gear, poorly tuned is poorly tuned.

Now, for the problem with the zx700.5 going into protect mode. You are going to need to get a DVOM out and start checking speaker circuits. Also, you need to inspect real close for a possible power or ground cable shorting out at the terminal lugs on the amp. Make sure you dont have a stray strand of wire that missed the lug. Outside of shorted speaker or lead or a problem at the lugs, you could be looking at a setting/tuning issue.

[EarmarkMarine]

John,
You posted just a fraction before I did so I wasn't able to read your comments in time.

The Kicker 5-channel is probably fine and you most likely have a problem(s) external to the amplifier. If the amplifier does require repair and its not a water-exposure issue then its still worth it versus a replacement. That amplifier will have no trouble serving your purposes as you've described them for six in-boat speakers and one subwoofer.
I'm confident that if you do find another 250.2 then you will be set for tower amplification for the long term. But I am going to recommend that when the time comes you move to a single pair of larger tower speakers rather than trying to supplement your existing pods. From a power standpoint the idea of using dual 2-channel amplifiers in the bridged mode better fits a single pair of more substantial speakers than it does four speakers. And, two 8-inch tower speakers are going to have the advantage over four 6.5" conventional automotive-based speakers in surface area, warmth and midbass extension.

For now you will have to first track down the present demons and get the existing equipment operating at its potential just as MLA wrote.

David
Earmark Marine

[johnallenewu]

Thanks guys for all of the advice. I will try isolating the short tomorrow if I don't see a stray wire or what not causing the short near/at the amplifier. I am really excited at the idea of hearing my system in whole for the first time once I get this sorted out. Might have to roll the boat down to a stereo shop for a full tune once I get it all working too. David, I like your idea about 2 big tower speakers instead 4 small ones. Just reinforces that a pair of the XM9's are what I should be holding out for. By the way at $1100 I will probably move those to the next boat instead of "trading them in". I will let you guys know if I am successful or if I need some more advice.

[kaneboats]

These guys are way more qualified than I am to help you now with all the info out there. The only thing I wanted to mention is an observation based on this part of your explanation: "We are 90% surf . . ."

Check out the Exile SXT65 speakers before you change whatever you have on the tower. While I agree that getting what you have now working is probably the priority, if you do decide to upgrade you will kick yourself if you don't at least hear these before you decide what to do. Good luck!

[MLA]

I want edit my post just a little after double checking the specs on the ZX250.2. At 4 ohm, such as driving 1 speaker per chnl, its output is 85W rms. That is by no means, grossly under powering those Kicker components. Although they would run comfortable at 120W, I do not believe upgrading the amp at this point, would yield the results you are looking for. I agree with David, if you are ready to make the investment, then go with a single pair of larger speakers. Picking up a 2nd zx250.2 would out you spot on for most any 8" tower speaker out there.

Zone wise, I feel that the in-boat and tower need to be different zones and designed to achieve the goals that the owner wants for each. IMO, the sub is part of the in-boat zone and in most installs, stays that way. 9 of 10 customers with towers, do not want a 2K watt in-boat system to compete, keep up or be in balance with their 2K watt tower setup.

For the tow-sport enthusiasts, most are after a setup that allows them to tone down the in-boat volume when the rider is in tow. This allows the rider to enjoy the tunes without the passengers being subjected to the in-boat volume at the same time. So in those cases, an in-boat system that will keep pace with the HO tower system is not practical. There is the exception, though. There are those that funds are not a concern when designing the system. In most cases, they spend more time at the party cove. Their days on the water are less about tow sports and not too family friendly. So for them, having a 2500 watt sub projecting 6 boats over to the beer pong table is what their goals are.

[EarmarkMarine]

Not to steer this thread too far of course but to expand a little on Mike's zone comments which I entirely agree with... You always want a little extra sub capacity and the ability to control the sub is nice to have if you are turning down the in-boat speakers while really driving the tower speakers extremely hard. Obviously under those conditions the in boat occupants are getting alot of residual radiation off the tower speakers whether they want it or not. But normally that doesn't constitute a zone in itself. Its just a bit of extra capacity and a bit of control.
For bass that is musical you cannot overdrive the capacity of your in-boat coaxials. Why? Try listening to any subwoofer in isolation and without the coaxials. It will absolutely sound soggy and indiscriminant. So you are very dependent on a balanced relationship between the subwoofer and in-boat coaxials if you want pitch accuracy and tonal definition in your bass. As your subwoofer overdrives the coaxials, provided it has that ability to do so, you will increasingly lose any resemblance to musicality. So the sub is tightly tied to the in-boat coaxials as part of a common in-boat zone. If you only want disco bump at the exclusion of sound quality then its a different set of priorities. And there is nothing wrong with that when its a conscious decision.

David
Earmark Marine

[Brianinpdx]

John - I didn't realize you where from Seattle. You have some great local resources close by for help if you run into trouble. or Need

- Exile is located down in portland. Welcome to stop by anytime for a refreshment. Redbull just sponsored us and dropped off a shiny refrigerator with all kinda stuff in it.

- Divine Marine is up your way. You might have seen him at the seattle boat show. I'm sure he'd give you some direct input.

- Bakes Marine is over in Issaquah (sp?) and they have an in house tech.

Sometimes the forums can go around and around in circles. I probably speak for all the audio guru's in saying you can reach out to any one of us for help regardless of the brand gear you are running.

The time is now to get all those issues sorted out because before you know it, it'll be time to DWIN and get on the water. Bakes a good service place if you need help with any of that stuff too.

and yes, I agree with all the above comments about getting that system working before you run go change it. If on of those amps are toast, I'd probably forget repairing it and just replace it with one of the amps listed in the classified section Probably be cheaper, and the forum members are all good guys.

-Brian
Exile Audio

[wolfeman131]

Sometimes the forums can go around and around in circles.

How else is one supposed to build up their post count?