Raptor 400 VS 450

[flienlow]

Can anyone form SC tell me what the specific difference between the Raptor 400 VS 450 is ?

Is it cams and Tuning? What would it take to turn a 400 into a 450?

I am trying to justify the $7600 price tag for the same exact mill.

404 LB-FT OF TORQUE
350 HORSEPOWER
89 OCTANE UNLEADED (MAXIMUM 10% ETHANOL)


452 LB-FT OF TORQUE
410 HORSEPOWER
93 OCTANE UNLEADED (MAXIMUM 10% ETHANOL)

Furthermore, what is the BEST Surf Prop for each engine with the W/1.76 Transmission?

[larry_arizona]

Your road block will be the ability to tune to ECM on the Raptors.

The 400 and 440 were rumored to be identical engines with the 440 having a hotter tune, in fact you could not order a 440 ECM unless you had a 440 both ran on 89 octane.

Not sure what of any internals are different on the 450 or if it’s just another hotter tune on 93 octane. Seems logical as cams would likely sacrifice low end torque for higher horsepower.

A good tuning rule of thumb is 10hp per octane point. 4 points difference from 89-93 could easily explain the 60hp delta.

I believe the 580 is also just the 400 with the supercharger.

On the Supras, Acme and SC worked on the 16x13.9 prop specifically for the 1.76 trans. Not sure if a 16 fits a moomba.

That would be my choice.

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[TXSurf4]

This I am sure of the 450 is the same motor as the 460 just with a smaller diameter exhaust. It is 400HP and 447 Ft-Lb. It requires a minimum of 91 Octane if it is E0 and not 93.


Now I am not 100% on this but I do believe it also has different heads than the 440 and 400.

[MLA]

A good tuning rule of thumb is 10hp per octane point. 4 points difference from 89-93 could easily explain the 60hp delta.

May be worth clarifying this before followers get the idea that running higher octane = higher HP/performance.

[larry_arizona]

May be worth clarifying this before followers get the idea that running higher octane = higher HP/performance.

IF ECM is tuned for the higher octane then 10hp per octane is a possibility.

Just putting in higher octane without tuning the ECM won’t help.


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[Panzer987]

Can anyone form SC tell me what the specific difference between the Raptor 400 VS 450 is ?

Is it cams and Tuning? What would it take to turn a 400 into a 450?

I am trying to justify the $7600 price tag for the same exact mill.

404 LB-FT OF TORQUE
350 HORSEPOWER
89 OCTANE UNLEADED (MAXIMUM 10% ETHANOL)


452 LB-FT OF TORQUE
410 HORSEPOWER
93 OCTANE UNLEADED (MAXIMUM 10% ETHANOL)

Furthermore, what is the BEST Surf Prop for each engine with the W/1.76 Transmission?

I'm not a mechanical engineer, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

I'm told most of these differences in output are far more often caused by tuning discrepencies than actual internal changes. It makes sense since an engine manufacturer would want to create the best economies of scale. They can make changes to the software far more easily and cost-efficiently to boost output than they can by changing internal pieces, which requires a lot of manufacturing change-over specific to the actual engine production.

Typically, once you start trying to circumvent the software, you start dealing with voiding a warranty.

[sleek98]

It would take about 3 degrees of timing to gain that 60hp. It wouldn't surprise me if they made the tune it for 410 package and then pulled a few degrees for the lower end package.

The higher the octane the slower the burn and the more timing you can run.

[MLA]

IF ECM is tuned for the higher octane then 10hp per octane is a possibility.

Just putting in higher octane without tuning the ECM won’t help.


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Thats part of what needed to be clarified. The HP is in the engine compression and tune, not the octane. Running the proper octane gets the optimal performance. Running higher then required gets you nothing, but running lower then required nets you a decrease in performance. You would want to run the oct that matches the engine and tune profile, rather then match the tune to the oct.

[SONIC]

Point of all this is to say:
Yes the price is crazy for just a tune, but there's nothing you can do about it (no aftermarket tuning available the ecms are locked) so if you want the power you pay the premium.
It's just how indmar makes money (lots of it I'd say lol) and helps them offset the slightly higher warranty costs on the hotter builds.

[MJHSupra]

I will find the thread on social media where someone from SC talked about the internal differences in the 400 vs 450. I thought it was exhaust, intake, and tune components.

There was a debate going on, but people were getting confused about the prior motor 400 vs 440 (that was tuning) VS the newer 400 vs 450.