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  1. #391
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Vancouver WA
    Posts
    5,019

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    Quote Originally Posted by DFTR Josh View Post
    This is where AW gets it's bad name an uneducated people trying to use it. Come to UT and I'll show ya a MAX that you will be very happy with. A poorly setup Max sucks to see and hear, I've beat some big names with customer side by side with the Max wave.
    I figure it's something they were doing wrong. But they'd owned it a whole season already. So ?

    I don't blame them for setting it at 100% and 100%. Seems logical that you'd just MAX out the settings. But that's likely not the case based on what happened. At some point I'll go out again on one probably with the dealer. I was just confused and dumbfounded that we didn't get a good experience.
    2008 Moomba Mobius XLV. Monster Cargo Bimini, WS Rev 410's, Polk Cabins, 3 Infinity Subs, PPI amps, WS420, Exile BT, upgraded ballast pumps, up to 3,500+ pounds of ballast, Blue LED's...
    1992 Supra Sunsport. **SOLD** 2k pounds ballast, Surf System, Blue LED's everywhere, decent audio system.
    Tow Rig: 2013 F150 Ecoboost FX4 (wife's rig) Other money pits include:1998 BMW M3 Cabriolet, 2009 Audic A6 Avant 3.0T, 2005 Kawasaki ZX-6R 636.
    www.TraysonsToybox.com

  2. #392
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Posts
    195

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    I agree with everything Stazi said. And as I said before, and supported by the length of this thread, even with AutoWake, we are still in an infancy state with many people in the surfing world.

    Sorry you had a bad experience on the 2018 Max. But keep in mind that while AutoWake can help, it doesn't completely handicap you either. You can have AutoWake on and still really screw up the wave. This would be my original line of questions...Where did you have the flow plates set? Where did you have pitch and roll set? What was the amplitude display showing for displacement? Did they have GPS or paddlewheel and was the speedo accurate? Was the inclinometer calibrated correctly? I know that sounds like a lot of things that could be wrong, but truth is with any "smart" system, the system is only as good as the inputs and if everything is working properly.

    Let me explain how things could go, even with AutoWake on. Lets say you move the flow plates to 90% for surfing on the port side for normal surfing. As I have explained before, the flow plates do roll the boat, but they also create lift which lowers pitch. Lets also assume that you moved the roll for the port surfing to 5 degrees instead of 3. For arguments sake, we will assume everything else is set properly and working properly. In this case, the higher % than normal flow plate not only creates a lot of roll, but also lowers pitch. Typically we use front ballast to lower pitch, so with the plates down, the only thing the system can do is DRAIN front ballast to maintain the same pitch. On the Max, the center bag is closer to center of the boat, so it takes a LOT of water to adjust pitch so in this case, the front ballast might have been less than 50%, and probably closer to 25%. The same goes for port surfing at 5 degrees. With only a few passengers in the boat, I assume 1 is driving, 1 is sitting in passenger side and the other would NOT make much of a difference in roll. So, the 90% plate will probably roll the boat about 3 degrees, but the rest of the roll will have to be made up by again DRAINING the non-surf side. Surfing at 3 degrees, the non surf side probably would not drain much, but to get the extra 2 degrees of roll would have to be made up by probably draining another 50% of the non surf side ballast. Again, I don't know these variables to be the case, but IF this happened, we are NO longer running 3000lbs of factory ballast. We would be running 100% on the surf side (1000lb), 50% on non surf side (500lb), and 25% on front (250lb). So, really we are now only running 1750lb of ballast. You didn't mention passengers, but I assume at least 1 is a female so 3 average adults and 1 child is probably about 500lbs in passengers.

    To sum that up, we have 1750lb in ballast and 500lbs in passengers, for a total of 2250lbs, or 750lbs LESS than factory ballast. I say this all the time that there is NO replacement for displacement, so if this was the case, it wasn't AutoWake that was making the wave small, it would have been the lack of displacement that made the wave small. Again, I have no idea if this is close to what happened or not, but that is why I ask what did the amplitude display show? In this case, if we only had 2250lbs of ballast and passengers, then the displacement would have displayed approximately 40%. Again, if you missed it, the amplitude display on the Max is basically a chart of what the Max can handle. At the bottom of the scale is 0 lbs. The top of the scale is 5800lbs. 5800lbs is the combination of factory ballast and passenger capacity. As I have said before, to get a "good" surf wave, you really need to be at least at 70% on amplitude display. On the Max, that means you need to have 100% full ballast in all compartments AND at least 1000lbs of additional passengers or weight. 3 adults, 1 child and with wrong settings simply won't get you there. I know some people may disagree that factory ballast alone should be enough, but that just isn't the case for most people. Again, in your case, you said the wave "looked" good, but didn't have push. That tells me that AutoWake probably did the best it could to get the correct pitch and roll, you just didn't have the displacement. Did I mention how important displacement is????

    As to comparisons to the XLV, that isn't really a fair comparison. Keep in mind, the XLV hull is substantially different than the max. It was a narrow hull design and had cutouts in the back compartments that narrowed the running surface even further. For surfing, it would allow the boat to roll pretty easy without the extra lift in the corners. You also said 3000lbs of ballast. Did you mean 3000lbs ballast and passengers, or 3000lbs of ballast plus passengers?? Also, are you just rolling the boat or adding a "suck" gate? See how all these variables add up? Also, the Max is substantially deeper and has a higher overall capacity. I looked it up and on the XLV, the factory ballast was 1450lbs and total passenger capacity was additional 2300lbs. So, total capacity on the XLV would have been 3750lbs. If you are including ballast and passengers in the 3000lb number, then you are actually at 80% on amplitude. So, I would imagine an XLV running at 80% amplitude would have a good wave. Especially if compared to a Max running at less than 50% amplitude.

    Hope you don't take this the wrong way Trayson. I know you have been a long time poster on here and a very faithful Moomba owner. I appreciate all your feedback over the years and hope you don't feel like I am being defensive about your feedback. I am just trying to explain how even with AutoWake, it will not create the perfect wave if you don't everything set properly and most importantly if you don't enough displacement...
    Matt Brown
    Product Development Manager

  3. #393

    Default

    Goose,

    Still kicking the 2017 Mojo. Last software update I did was the November 2017 version I believe.

    Anything newer that is backward compatible?

    Ken

    Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

  4. #394
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Posts
    195

    Default

    Actually.....

    The 2019 software used in the Max and Helix, SHOULD be backward compatible for 2017 and 2018 model boats. However, the only difference really for 2019 is the addition of the ballast sensors. The software is the easy part, but without the sensors and wiring, you wouldn't notice a difference.

    BUT, if you did want to add sensors (flow sensors only) to a 2017 or 2018, you should be able to contact your local dealer and they can contact our parts department about getting the parts necessary to do the install. I have NO idea what we would charge for that but we are working on a kit for those looking to upgrade...
    Matt Brown
    Product Development Manager

  5. #395
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Commerce Lake, MI
    Posts
    2,145

    Default

    Also to add don’t think that setting amplitude to 100% and then letting it automatically fill the ballast from empty will mean the bags are 100% completely filled. I have tried this and it stopped the bags before they were truly full.

    I ALWAYS fill the ballast manually to the point of overflow, THEN turn on Autowake. This ensures I have max ballast. This issue is also probably worse on the boats with a draft sensor as the weight of the occupants makes the boat sit lower in the water and the Autowake could shut off the fill sequence before the bags are completely full, as it will think the boat is “sunk” enough.



    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    2017 Moomba Craz

  6. #396
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Vancouver WA
    Posts
    5,019

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by goose View Post
    I agree with everything Stazi said. And as I said before, and supported by the length of this thread, even with AutoWake, we are still in an infancy state with many people in the surfing world.

    Sorry you had a bad experience on the 2018 Max. But keep in mind that while AutoWake can help, it doesn't completely handicap you either. You can have AutoWake on and still really screw up the wave. This would be my original line of questions...Where did you have the flow plates set? Where did you have pitch and roll set? What was the amplitude display showing for displacement? Did they have GPS or paddlewheel and was the speedo accurate? Was the inclinometer calibrated correctly? I know that sounds like a lot of things that could be wrong, but truth is with any "smart" system, the system is only as good as the inputs and if everything is working properly.

    Let me explain how things could go, even with AutoWake on. Lets say you move the flow plates to 90% for surfing on the port side for normal surfing. As I have explained before, the flow plates do roll the boat, but they also create lift which lowers pitch. Lets also assume that you moved the roll for the port surfing to 5 degrees instead of 3. For arguments sake, we will assume everything else is set properly and working properly. In this case, the higher % than normal flow plate not only creates a lot of roll, but also lowers pitch. Typically we use front ballast to lower pitch, so with the plates down, the only thing the system can do is DRAIN front ballast to maintain the same pitch. On the Max, the center bag is closer to center of the boat, so it takes a LOT of water to adjust pitch so in this case, the front ballast might have been less than 50%, and probably closer to 25%. The same goes for port surfing at 5 degrees. With only a few passengers in the boat, I assume 1 is driving, 1 is sitting in passenger side and the other would NOT make much of a difference in roll. So, the 90% plate will probably roll the boat about 3 degrees, but the rest of the roll will have to be made up by again DRAINING the non-surf side. Surfing at 3 degrees, the non surf side probably would not drain much, but to get the extra 2 degrees of roll would have to be made up by probably draining another 50% of the non surf side ballast. Again, I don't know these variables to be the case, but IF this happened, we are NO longer running 3000lbs of factory ballast. We would be running 100% on the surf side (1000lb), 50% on non surf side (500lb), and 25% on front (250lb). So, really we are now only running 1750lb of ballast. You didn't mention passengers, but I assume at least 1 is a female so 3 average adults and 1 child is probably about 500lbs in passengers.

    To sum that up, we have 1750lb in ballast and 500lbs in passengers, for a total of 2250lbs, or 750lbs LESS than factory ballast. I say this all the time that there is NO replacement for displacement, so if this was the case, it wasn't AutoWake that was making the wave small, it would have been the lack of displacement that made the wave small. Again, I have no idea if this is close to what happened or not, but that is why I ask what did the amplitude display show? In this case, if we only had 2250lbs of ballast and passengers, then the displacement would have displayed approximately 40%. Again, if you missed it, the amplitude display on the Max is basically a chart of what the Max can handle. At the bottom of the scale is 0 lbs. The top of the scale is 5800lbs. 5800lbs is the combination of factory ballast and passenger capacity. As I have said before, to get a "good" surf wave, you really need to be at least at 70% on amplitude display. On the Max, that means you need to have 100% full ballast in all compartments AND at least 1000lbs of additional passengers or weight. 3 adults, 1 child and with wrong settings simply won't get you there. I know some people may disagree that factory ballast alone should be enough, but that just isn't the case for most people. Again, in your case, you said the wave "looked" good, but didn't have push. That tells me that AutoWake probably did the best it could to get the correct pitch and roll, you just didn't have the displacement. Did I mention how important displacement is????

    As to comparisons to the XLV, that isn't really a fair comparison. Keep in mind, the XLV hull is substantially different than the max. It was a narrow hull design and had cutouts in the back compartments that narrowed the running surface even further. For surfing, it would allow the boat to roll pretty easy without the extra lift in the corners. You also said 3000lbs of ballast. Did you mean 3000lbs ballast and passengers, or 3000lbs of ballast plus passengers?? Also, are you just rolling the boat or adding a "suck" gate? See how all these variables add up? Also, the Max is substantially deeper and has a higher overall capacity. I looked it up and on the XLV, the factory ballast was 1450lbs and total passenger capacity was additional 2300lbs. So, total capacity on the XLV would have been 3750lbs. If you are including ballast and passengers in the 3000lb number, then you are actually at 80% on amplitude. So, I would imagine an XLV running at 80% amplitude would have a good wave. Especially if compared to a Max running at less than 50% amplitude.

    Hope you don't take this the wrong way Trayson. I know you have been a long time poster on here and a very faithful Moomba owner. I appreciate all your feedback over the years and hope you don't feel like I am being defensive about your feedback. I am just trying to explain how even with AutoWake, it will not create the perfect wave if you don't everything set properly and most importantly if you don't enough displacement...
    Goose, I'm sucking up the knowledge like a sponge! No offense taken. I was passenger on a boat that had been used all season so I was surprised they didn't have it dialed. And yes, everything you said makes sense and sheds WAY more light on it.

    The only reason I brought up 3k in my XLV is because 3k of ballast seems to be the point at which most boats really start to be more enjoyable. I actually prefer my wave in my XLV to the same 3k in my buddy's G23. His is a little longer, but mine's bigger and cleaner. And if the ballast on the Max I was on was really that much less than 3k, it makes a ton more sense.

    And my wife will appreciate the assumption that she weighs less than a typical guy! LOLOLOL

    I do appreciate the speculation to attempt to figure out what was really happening. That's honestly why I posted it in the first place. I wasn't trying to "complain" rather I wanted to understand the WHY and figure out what should have taken place to have a better experience.

    And I do appreciate that my XLV is way different. FWIW, I run maybe 500 to 600 starboard, the 1180 bag under the PLAYPEN (did I mention that I LOVE the Playpen bow?!?!?!?! hahahaha) and the rest of it's all along the port from tip to tail. And yeah, I run 3000 to 3300 pretty regularly only in ballast. So comparing a dialed XLV to a stock Max where they didn't have the settings optimal is a recipe for disaster.

    That said, they put me on the wakeboard behind the Max and put it at 100% 100% and I hucked the first jump and it sent me into another zip code. I got bucked so high that I got off axis in the air and crashed so hard that I was begging them to drain ballast and reduce amp. The wakeboarding wake was insane. No complaints there except that I don't know if I am man enough to handle it Maxxed out!!!
    2008 Moomba Mobius XLV. Monster Cargo Bimini, WS Rev 410's, Polk Cabins, 3 Infinity Subs, PPI amps, WS420, Exile BT, upgraded ballast pumps, up to 3,500+ pounds of ballast, Blue LED's...
    1992 Supra Sunsport. **SOLD** 2k pounds ballast, Surf System, Blue LED's everywhere, decent audio system.
    Tow Rig: 2013 F150 Ecoboost FX4 (wife's rig) Other money pits include:1998 BMW M3 Cabriolet, 2009 Audic A6 Avant 3.0T, 2005 Kawasaki ZX-6R 636.
    www.TraysonsToybox.com

  7. #397
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Posts
    195

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by trayson View Post
    Goose, I'm sucking up the knowledge like a sponge! No offense taken. I was passenger on a boat that had been used all season so I was surprised they didn't have it dialed. And yes, everything you said makes sense and sheds WAY more light on it.

    The only reason I brought up 3k in my XLV is because 3k of ballast seems to be the point at which most boats really start to be more enjoyable. I actually prefer my wave in my XLV to the same 3k in my buddy's G23. His is a little longer, but mine's bigger and cleaner. And if the ballast on the Max I was on was really that much less than 3k, it makes a ton more sense.

    And my wife will appreciate the assumption that she weighs less than a typical guy! LOLOLOL

    I do appreciate the speculation to attempt to figure out what was really happening. That's honestly why I posted it in the first place. I wasn't trying to "complain" rather I wanted to understand the WHY and figure out what should have taken place to have a better experience.

    And I do appreciate that my XLV is way different. FWIW, I run maybe 500 to 600 starboard, the 1180 bag under the PLAYPEN (did I mention that I LOVE the Playpen bow?!?!?!?! hahahaha) and the rest of it's all along the port from tip to tail. And yeah, I run 3000 to 3300 pretty regularly only in ballast. So comparing a dialed XLV to a stock Max where they didn't have the settings optimal is a recipe for disaster.

    That said, they put me on the wakeboard behind the Max and put it at 100% 100% and I hucked the first jump and it sent me into another zip code. I got bucked so high that I got off axis in the air and crashed so hard that I was begging them to drain ballast and reduce amp. The wakeboarding wake was insane. No complaints there except that I don't know if I am man enough to handle it Maxxed out!!!
    Well, I am glad you didn't take my response the wrong way. You know how texts and emails can be taken the wrong way sometimes and I was trying to help explain, not defend so glad we are on the same page...

    As to your XLV, I loved that boat. That was one of my first boats where I was trying something different with running surfaces and some of those changes are definitely helping you now for surfing. I will be honest that I was originally hoping those changes were for wakeboarding and they did allow you to sink the boat with less ballast (that's why it had the notches) but it made the wakeboard wakes quite a bit steeper once you put a lot of weight in the boat. As I said before, now those notches allow you to sink the boat with less weight as it isn't fighting you with lifting surfaces. It also helps in surfing as the chines are not preventing you from rolling the boat. We have changed our running surfaces a LOT since the XLV, but the lifting surfaces on the sides of the chines are WAY different on the Max. That makes the Max a LOT more stable side to side and also makes the wakeboarding wakes have a smoother transition with a longer transition. If you wakeboard mainly behind the XLV, I can only imagine the wakes were a lot different. I can visualize how that probably looked and a lot of people get that feeling when you ride a fully weighted Max at wakeboarding. Wait till you get a set behind a Makai. The Makai is about 700 to 800lbs heavier than the Max and the ballast is an additional 1000lbs. So, it is like hitting that same Max with about 8 more passengers!! Keep in mind longer boats do require more ballast, but I think you get the point. Lets just say during the validation testing, we had the Makai totally loaded up and I can say it scared me. Maybe the fact that I am 43 now and more fragile had something to do with it, but I didn't want any of that wake haha

    And don't get me started on the playpen. Playpen bows were here when I got here in 2000. I loved them because you could put sooo much ballast in the front and also use that area for storage. The bows were super strong and comfy and I loved the flip up seat backs. The problem was we were the only ones doing it at the time and every year we had so many non-owners complain about having to "walk across" the interior in the front. We eventually gave in to the negative feedback and got rid of them. Now, almost every boat is sold with bow fillers and other guys that used to sell against us having playpens, now make playpens!! hahaha Isn't that the way it goes. Sometimes the people that start something give up because they are the only one doing it. Only to find out later, they were actually ahead of the curve but gave up too soon.

    Anyways, back to the point, give it another shot someday, but take this knowledge and help the people you go out with. Honestly, I have gotten on many peoples boats (that they thought were dialed in) and within just a few minutes had them making a wave they couldn't believe. With surfing, many people don't know what "good" really is because they haven't seen it, or even with AutoWake, don't trust the system and try to use someone else's "expert" opinion about how to make it work properly. I tell people all the time, experiment and learn. Fill the ballast all the way, then turn on AutoWake. Next time, turn on AutoWake and see what it does. Let AutoWake TEACH you how to be more experienced and a better driver. Let AutoWake TEACH you how moving passengers helps. Let AutoWake TEACH you how to optimize displacement. Let AutoWake TEACH you how displacement works and where the minimum level is you need. AutoWake is a very impressive system. But if you don't use it right or don't let it teach you, it can't do miracles....

    good luck.
    Matt Brown
    Product Development Manager

  8. #398
    Join Date
    May 2018
    Posts
    4,920

    Default

    Autowake and the surf and wake presets have been nothing short of awesome in the 18SA.

    For a newb to this sport driving has been super simple.

    I fill ballast 100% pick the preset surf setting, my son jumps in and grabs the rope and the wave is great. Autowake adjusts it automatically and teaches you were to put passengers or extra ballast.


    Without autowake as a newb, we would not have been surfing a good wave like we did the first time we tried.

    OUTSTANDING system.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    2021 Supra SA 400
    2018 Supra SA 400 (SOLD)
    Michigan

  9. #399
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Location
    Knoxville, TN
    Posts
    1,372

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by goose View Post
    Honestly, I have gotten on many peoples boats (that they thought were dialed in) and within just a few minutes had them making a wave they couldn't believe.
    Goose, feel free to come on over and dial in our SA anytime, hahaha..but really, we only live 2 exits away from the plant on the water.
    2018 Supra SA400 aka The Ron Burgandy
    2011 Sea-Doo Wake 155
    2015 Mojo Surf, sold...2013 Axis A22 Recon Edition, sold...2010 Axis A22, sold...2007 Maxum 1800sr3, sold

  10. #400
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Christina Lake
    Posts
    171

    Default

    Hey Goose
    Will the new software for the 19 moombas work on the 18 supra's? Will the new ballast sensors work on a 2018 SL?

    thanks
    2018 Supra SL
    2013 Nautique 210
    2011 outback v
    1992 Sunbird

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