COPS, Speaker POPS, and Bad Sound SHOPS

[David Analog]

I have a Nickleback CD specifically for tuning although I don't normally listen to it. The problem is that I don't listen to any music with that level of compression. So for me Nickleback is like using a 0 dB CD test tone to set my max gains. It will expose limitations at the earliest possible point. But for my music I would be leaving some dynamic range on the table. So IMO it is a great starting point but definitely not the final or only selection for tuning. Be sure to mix in some of what you listen to daily.

[philwsailz]

David-

I absolutely agree that it should not be the only or final selection for tuning. One has so many other things to set, crossovers, phase, etc. You CAN'T hear those subtleties if you have Nickleback on.

I question though your comment that you would be leaving dynamic range on the table. If you have gain-staged every single item in the signal chain so that they all exactly start to clip at the same time, you have not given up dynamic range anywhere, but have in fact squeezed every last drop of dynamic range out of the system.

Wait... I get it. You are saying that you listen to music that is not recorded close to 0dB. It is on average recorded much quieter, probably 6 to 18 dB quieter on average. I am in the same boat. Most of us are a decent amount of the time. Follow me, we agree, and I know you know that... just playing along and now it is time to elaborate.

Guys, know we have not given up dynamic range, the dynamic range still fully exists! It is just that if we only use Nickleback, or a 0dB calibration, the music will be often unduly quiet when the stereo is playing other music at normal operating levels. As I attempted to point out in my comments on the first page, the typical driving Nickleback track approaches the 0dB test as David points out. It is GOOD at helping you find the onset of clipping distortion and allows you to do so for a significant portion of the song, since it is so heavily compressed in the recording stage. IF you gain stage your whole system with a Nickleback track, you should find that without changing radio tone controls that you will never clip your stereo again. It will not be as loud on other music though...

So What is a guy to do? Probably what we all do anyway. Leave the amp gains a little bit higher than the Nickleback CD suggests... It is a FIRST part of tuning, in order to set your signal chain and each of its components to its max gain before clipping. Just remember after you bring the amp gains up, the Nickleback CD will be the one that clips your system the worst when its cranked way up.........


I know this discussion is a tough one to follow for a lot of the readers, and in an attempt to present the material in as simple as possible a manner, some obvious points inadvertantly get swept under the table. It all comes down to risk avoidance and probability.

Say if one of you were tuning a stereo for a 16-year-old first time car owner first time stereo owner, you will probably assume he is going to turn the treble all the way up, the bass all the way up, and switch on Loudness and Bass Boost if available... As a result, if you don't want to have to service the stereo as the kid tears it up, you probably will end up setting the amp gains a little lower and the high-pass crowsovers a little higher... You will take a conservative approach to settingt the stereo up in an attempt to provide the customer a rock-solid system that won't break under abuse, since he probably cannot tell by ear when he is clipping some part of the audio signal somewhere.

Conversely if David or I, or Tim, or some of the other stereo experts on here were tuning our own systems for our own car or boat, I guarantee that we will set some things differently for our own tastes, as we know our own tastes, know our own listening preferences, and absolutely know how to listen for the signs of bad stereo behavior. We also understand fully that if we break a part of the stereo by over-driving it, it really is OUR fault, not the equipment's fault.... We probably have some music deemed VERY WEIRD by many of you from artists you have never heard of..... Or it is music we recorded from a live performance ourselves...


As I re-read through what I just wrote, (looking for mis-spelled words) I realize the last two paragraphs are probably the two extreme examples of stereo ownership. the rest of the world, (most of you guys) live somewhere in-between these two extremes.

As has been done in the past, and as it will be done again, there can be books written in these forums attempting to get every nuance of system tuning nailed down, purely scientifically in a perfect cookie-cutter textbook fashion. And every one of these examples will miss something, somewhere, for some other system. There is a standard approach, but there is no set of standard settings.

As I mentioned in a previous post, Nickleback is good for INITIAL gain settings, and it is a good tool to get unity gain established.

If you use Nickleback for final tuning, you can be reasonably sure that no other recording is going to clip an audio system without heavy tone control adjustment. That fact is what I attempted to write in my reply to Jwredmon101's post. As David pointed out though, and I wrote a book elaborating on, that is not where you ultimately shold stop.

Clearer or muddier?

You be the Judge...

Phil
Kicker

[Jwredmon101]

So in easier terms.. If I tune my system to Nickelback.. I wont clip on any song .. but if I have songs that are recorded alot lower .. I could be missing potential power, putting me far behind where clipping would be because the track was not recorded at 0 db. Correct?

[David Analog]

Phil,
You read my statements correctly. I always start out by finding out what my absolute limits are. Even finding clipping with a scope and test tone I find that I am leaving some music contrast unrealized if using a 0 dB tone. So my final tune is always by ear with what I prefer for daily listening. Of course, that has to be a little different for the 16 year old driving the family boat.
I will listen to the best of any music category. Jazz, rock, country, etc. etc. But I mostly listen to Classic Rock and the Rock outgrowth up to the present. At the beginning of Rock, the recordings were terrible, then many got really good, and then the recordings have moved to appeasing compressed mediums. For that reason a pro will have a handful of selections that he uses for contrast. Some of those selections will be specifically for exposing the limits. Sometimes the amplifiers are more powerful than the speakers can withstand. Some of those selections are used because they are favorites and he knows the program material so well. Some of those selections are never played personally. And I have a completely different selection for car and boat. In a car I often have control over amplitude, slope, and crossover frequency between the midbass and tweeters so certain music becomes critical in tuning. In a boat, once you get past the defining of the limits, you typically only have control over level matching zones and biamping a sub and sats.

[philwsailz]

So in easier terms.. If I tune my system to Nickelback.. I wont clip on any song .. but if I have songs that are recorded alot lower .. I could be missing potential power, putting me far behind where clipping would be because the track was not recorded at 0 db. Correct?

Dang!

You took my long-winded textbook and basically condensed it to two sentences.

You are absolutely correct.

[Jwredmon101]

Dang!

You took my long-winded textbook and basically condensed it to two sentences.

You are absolutely correct.

If we ever discover other life forms..I like to think I would make a good translator!

[btye1]

The "sound shop" you took your boat to should be downright embarrassed with the work they performed. I would guess that they have tuned multiple boats the same as yours is. Hopefully you didn't spend too much money on that hot mess.