So you want to tune that stereo???

[Brianinpdx]

Everyone wants their stereo to sound great, under a myriad of conditions and of course to make the most of their gear and operate it at maximum performance. Sounds pretty good eh? Well, here’s the secret… that statement means something different to just about everyone on the water. So what really does this elusive term, “tune” mean and how can you apply it to your setup.

To answer this question I look at it like a Pyramid. The tuning is that small block of the puzzle that’s on the top--the smallest piece. It’s built on a wider foundation of other ingredients that all come together to form the pyramid. Think that sounds crazy? Well, lets take a look piece by piece and work our way up.

On the ground level, I look at system design, goals, and budget. Breaking it down sometimes into upgrade chunks. And once this is in place, it all starts with the backbone – power, ground and fusing. Ya, all the un flattering expensive, hidden away stuff that nobody see’s. We need proper distribution, Batteries with reserve power to meet the demands of the system performance. We might need to upgrade the factory speaker cable before doing tower upgrades. We might need to start with putting in place a Perko switch to isolate the stereo current consumption.

Working our way up to the mid level of our stereo foundation / pyramid, we need to take a hard look at our current gear… what we got, what we want, and what we can afford. We need to select the gear or upgrades on how they will fit into the big picture. I cant tell you how many calls I get from guys asking how they can keep up with the Johnson’s with a 5 channel amplifier they found on Ebay for 75.00 bucks. Fact is… It’s just not going to do a super job because its trying to do to much. Or the calls from people wanting to drop 2K+ on a new tower setup but they have no subwoofer. The mid level of our pyramid is critical if we want to get to the top. Selecting amplifiers that are matched well to the speaker load, and the shear number of speakers connected to an amplifier are very important things to pay attention to because they have real world impacts to the fidelity, dynamic range, and later down the path… tuning of a boat stereo. There are numerous configurations and to say one is more prudent than another would be false. However, most of the time, the path usually leads to a 3 amplifier setup which allows for dedicated audio amplification for each zone – cabin / tower / sub. I advocate amplifying the cabin speakers first, then adding a subwoofer setup, and last a tower setup.

Another fundamental building block is the source unit. Utilizing one that offers 4-5V of output will instantly yield better results down the signal path of the stereo. In simple terms, having big time fancy 3 amp setup is pointless without a good source feeding them.

I’ve probably forgot a few of the building blocks, but 6 interruptions from little kids tonight…. It’s a wonder this post hasn’t self deleted. So feel free people to chime in.

Putting it all together… So you want to tune your boat, you say? Ok, fair enough, what I do is go down the list… looking at all the foundation, to see whats missing. In short order I can tell where the deficiencies will be without ever turning on the stereo. For example….

Example: This setup has a 25.00 headunit….
Thought: Probably going to have compressed or clipped audio into the amplifiers. Basically putting a governer on the overall performance.
Solution: punt that thing and feed your amps with something quality. Atleast get a line driver

Example: This setup has a 2500 tower setup and no sub anywhere on the boat.
Thought: Probably going to be missing 2 octaves of musical information and crossover points are running to low and loudness gimmicks are engaged on the deck.

Example: This setup has a 15” woofer with 2K of power on it but the deck is driving the cabin speakers without an amplifier inline. Think I’m kidding? I’ve seen it on 80K tow boats before.
Thought: who’s the Jackwagon that came up with this idea! It’s going to sound totally out of whack and no tone adjustment on this planet will help it.
Solution: power the cabin setup so it can get closer to the sub performance.

I could probably write about 20 more of these examples and they don’t always spell buy stuff. Sometimes it means making sure we have a volume control for the tower setup. Sometimes it means looking at the digital media and making sure its higher bit rate. There is no short answer on how to tune a boat. It’s going to be different for each individual setup based on the gear they are running and the locations its installed. Since we don’t live in the perfect world, for 3 amp systems and such, it ultimately comes down to working with what you have and making informed adjustments to optimize and blend the gear you have.

I caution you all… as Mandley will testify, it becomes a grand game of, “If I change this… will it effect that? And how much…”

Call me Jaded, but adding Eq’s into a boat setup, often has more draw backs than benefits. If the operators would leave them alone after the initial setup, I’d be all for it. But 99% of the time when I visit fiends, customers and the general boating public on the water, the EQ’s all have smiley faces on them and I just have to shake my head. My view of tuning a boat is to re-setup the gains, freq sweep the subs, adjust subsonic filtering, eliminate bassboost, appropriately integrate crossover slopes to flatten out the over all system tonally. From there one can shape appropriately if an EQ is involved or fatten up the bottom end somewhat and most importantly, setup the overall max volume of the stereo so it wont damage the individual components.

My advice is this: For those of you that don’t want to roll up their sleeves and work on their own stereo, choose to work with an installer that has spent lots of time on many different boat stereo installations. Experience is the key! For those of you that are DIY types, you are directly supporting a company when you buy their brand of gear. With this in mind, you should ask them for specific guidance on how best to set it up and tune your overall system for peek performance. Some companies specialize in this and others don’t have a clue from a technical point of view (no, I wont name names).

In representing a manufacturers perspective, I see a lot of people bend over backwards to save a buck or two on gear only to have zero after purchase support. It’s that support that will help you tailor that final building block of your stereo pyramid – Tuning for Max performance!

Just my 2 cents.

-Brian
Exile Audio

[EarmarkMarine]

You can, in my experience, do a very significant sub, in-boat and tower system using two amplifiers.
My opinion may differ on this because we have so many excellent five and six channel amplifier options available. There will come a point that when a system crosses a certain threshold that a triple amplifier set up is necessary to get the larger power numbers or stretch performance. Here is an example of system building and matching. A 1000 watt woofer with extreme excursion cababilities is going to take considerably more power out of the gate. Those attributes come at the expense of heavier parts and less efficiency (not sensitivity but efficiency as there can be a big applied difference). A high roll heavier surround to support the longer excursion adds moving mass. A voice coil that uses heavier gauge wire to provide greater thermal capacity must be longer to maintain the same resistance, thus we have greater moving mass. With greater mass comes greater inertia and control issues. The idea of a speaker is to displace air...not mass. Sure, you can play with the parameters and magnet size a little to offset the efficiency losses but you can't cheat mother nature (physics) and you have to give it back with a higher resonance or a compromise in some other performance attribute.
A speaker with 3 dB less efficiency and double the power handling may attain the identical output as a speaker with half the power handling and 3 dB greater efficiency. Properly matched with an amplifier the lighter mass woofer may play a particular low frequency with equal impact at a much lower package price point.
For the individual who chooses the woofer with the highest power rating and connects it to an entry level amplifier (also rated at big power when lightning strikes)...well, he might only get a fraction of the performance of properly matched gear. Unqualified specifications in an industry that doesn't govern specs is tricky.
This is one scenerio and there are countless variations on this theme and countless other performance attributes to pursue. Kicker, WetSounds, JL Audio, Exile, HollowPoint to name a few will know how to properly match their componentry. The methodolgy of one may gravitate around their particular product offerings and does not necessarily translate to the product offerings of another brand.
Here is what should be taken from this. System design and component matching, one component to another, each component to its application, is critical in determining the performance that you get. 'Tuning' is not a magic pill that can overcome mistakes and flaws in your system design. 'Foundation' is a very apt term as the final product will only be as good as the weakest link.

David
Earmark Marine

[Razzman]

Kudos Brian! Another excellent how-to from one of our resident audio experts. We are extremely lucky to have them onboard!

[KG's Supra24]

I will preface this by saying that i feel i have become the voice of the "little man" (or reasonable man) and that I also appreciate VERY much all the help from the audio guru's that routinely post here.

This is a great "how to" for what to consider at the base of starting to build your system. THE #1 STEP AS WELL AS THE MOST IMPORTANT STEP. It provides little to no insight on "how to" tune. I take away from this, we (the audio gurus) cannot fix the mess a DIY does by tuning, which i completely understand.

I'm sure yall have endless stories of what has been brought to you. That has been part of the reason Dusty and myself have started trying to generate some DIY threads. That way someone wanting to save, what keeps getting referred to as "a couple bucks' (when in reality we are talking a couple thousand) can do it knowledgeably and you won't be seeing as many of the horrid systems that get brought to you.

The OP was great read and very good information until the last paragraph where it became more or less self promoting for the big guys. We know that if we drop our boat off there we will be getting excellent customer service from some of the best guys in the industry. However, not everyone can or wants to drop 5k to 10k on a stereo install. Therefore they have to resort to buying online. A DIY should have done his homework and researched how to piece gear together and how to build from ground up (which this thread provides great insight to) and then they need somewhere to go for tips (customer service). In which case there are a couple excellent threads on wiring and building and such.

I feel the constant tear downs about buying online and how the DIYer screws up lacks professionalism (when beat to death). I don't think they are posing a serious threat to your market share either. As mentioned above, you are talking 2 completely different ball games in terms of price. Once again speaking form the little man, some of the threads seem to intimidate a DIY job and/or assume a solid DIY job cannot be done.

PS: No offense guys and I understand brand loyalty but the big high fives from the members with loaded exile boats on a "non-self promoting" thread that addresses nothing about tuning (which the title suggested) is laughable.

Vent over.

[sandm]

I certainly don't want to step on any toes here as I appreciate as do everyone the advice that phil, dave and brian bring to this forum(although I have not personally used/solicited any as I think I know my fair share about system install/design, but will thank dave for the bullets ).. however I do agree with kg that there is not much info in this post with the exception of building a solid base, and can def. understand the position that the experts are in. it's a no-win for them in most cases on a forum like this and topics about their field.. tough to offer advice but remain non-self-promoting, and not wanting to give the farm away for free as well.

I view this on one side that you have a bunch of guys that install their own gear and want help/advice on the final tune, and the industry pros that don't want to offer up free help for nothing and have to fix someone elses mess. 2 interesting positions..

my take: if you need help building a system, pay for the help from the pros. they are there to ensure you get a good system for a good price. if you are a diy, then learn all phases of it, don't expect help with any of it for free other than forum guidance, and don't expect a shop to finish the tune when they didn't build it. part of diy is going from start to finish yourself.
fwiw, I did my entire system myself and did the tune myself. it may not be perfect and any of the guru's on here would probably find fault with the settings, but at the end of the day, it sounds fantastic to me and none of the equipment is being pushed beyond it's intended use. it's a noisy outdoor boat, not carnegie hall

[mmandley]

This thread is a bit funny to me, in the fact if you have ever spent some time talking to Brian at Exile you will see this post is how he talks when you let him talk on his own.

He has a million things running in his mind and if you dont keep him on track he tends to wander a bit when talking lol.

I personaly spend 4 months at Brian main shop last winter/spring when i did my upgrades to my boat.

These included, tinting the windhield, installing a flip over bow light, stripping all my factory stickers, installing new custom stickers, and removing the entire stereo system and installing a completly new system from the wires to the speakers. This even included a new head unit and remote.

I can tell you if you talk with Brian hes one of the most informed and educated guys in the stereo field and hes a wealth of info but like a lot of these electronic gurus you have to keep them focused because its easy for them to ramble off side topics.

As for my system i did it 100% myself. I didnt design the sub enclosure but my LSV was the base of what all Brians Moomba sub boxes are. I was the ghinnie pig boat in a lot of Exile designs last year.

Does this make me loyal to Exile you bet, but then again how many can say they have been intrigual to a company entrance to the Marine world?

Other then that if you meet Brian in person hes one of those people who literaly give you the shirt off his back, hes made countless discounts to people on gear on this forum, prices that make me thing WTH man?

Take this advise, if you want true content on how to do things dont ask and expect a huge amount of detail in a forum. EMAIL these guys and others here. I talk with people more in email then anyware and i have installed a couple full Exile systems as well as countless other car and boat systems now. Its a fun hobby but at the end of the day if i need advise and direction i knwo who to call and email. Its a better forum to talk to these experts then in a forum where everyone is going to critize whats said.

[11 Outback V]

I may be new to this forum but am not new to12 volt Audio. There are many different trains of thought covered in this topic so far.
Basically what you need to keep in mind is that you cant make a good chicken salad out of chicken s@#t.
I have delt w Brian and with David in the recent past. both were totally different outlooks on Audio and business.
The main thing about "tuning" a system is that it has toooo many variables. The way you set up or tune a system may not sound good to the next guy. Now adjusting for peak output and performance is something totally different. All of the "tune" request are not that, they are just setting up for peak performance and hopefully some soundquality, as much as your system will allow.
The term "tune" is being used totally wrong in this aspect.
In order to "tune" a system you need something with greater control than just a HP/LP filter and a gain. There are several companies that make products to "tune" but I havent seen ANY of those mentioned here.

So lets all just try to help each other get the best that we can for OUR budget even if we dont promote the product. It may not be on your shelf but that doesnt mean its not good quality. You never know when a person will buy something from you if you point them n the right direction in the begining. Customer service even if they only bought connectors!!!
Basically the foundation must be good. If you are planning to upgrade in the future start with a good "base", power supply ie batteries, wire, cables and interconnect.

Just a start......

[KG's Supra24]

My view of tuning a boat is to re-setup the gains, freq sweep the subs, adjust subsonic filtering, eliminate bassboost, appropriately integrate crossover slopes to flatten out the over all system tonally. From there one can shape appropriately if an EQ is involved or fatten up the bottom end somewhat and most importantly, setup the overall max volume of the stereo so it wont damage the individual components.

This is essentially what i was wanting expansion on in one of the other threads.

Let me give an outline and maybe you, or someone, can expand.

Re-setup the gains: this is essentially turning the head unit to max volume and turning the gain up on the amp until you begin hearing distortion. Then bring it back down a couple notches?

Freq sweep the subs: Not sure what you mean? Setting the sub amp freq to 60-80 hz?

Adjust subsonic filtering: Highpass the towers and in boats if you have a dedicated sub?

Eliminate bassboost: If th sub amp has a boost, turn it off?

Integrate crossover slopes to flatten out over all tone: I dont have a clue here.

I put question marks next to everything because i just don't know. These are the questions I was looking for answers for in one of the other threads. I was hoping your OP would address these issues.

I was hoping to find answers to the above as well as from other guys that have done it themselves. Have you had yours next to a professional tuned boat? Can you tell the difference? What general guidelines did you follow?

[mmandley]

This is essentially what i was wanting expansion on in one of the other threads.

Let me give an outline and maybe you, or someone, can expand.

Re-setup the gains: this is essentially turning the head unit to max volume and turning the gain up on the amp until you begin hearing distortion. Then bring it back down a couple notches?

Freq sweep the subs: Not sure what you mean? Setting the sub amp freq to 60-80 hz?

Adjust subsonic filtering: Highpass the towers and in boats if you have a dedicated sub?

Eliminate bassboost: If th sub amp has a boost, turn it off?

Integrate crossover slopes to flatten out over all tone: I dont have a clue here.

I put question marks next to everything because i just don't know. These are the questions I was looking for answers for in one of the other threads. I was hoping your OP would address these issues.

I was hoping to find answers to the above as well as from other guys that have done it themselves. Have you had yours next to a professional tuned boat? Can you tell the difference? What general guidelines did you follow?

Ok brothern let me see if i can help you out here.

System setting to start all flat. This is Deck setting. No treble or bass boost. Turn off the Loudness.

If you use an Iphone or something that has a built in EQ set it to off.

OK for a basic nitty gritty way to assume your deck is producing clean power you use 75% of its volume adjustment. Lets say Kenwoods because most i have seen have 35 on the dial at max. So 30 is the real max i use to make sure its producing a clean signal.

When talking distortion it comes in many varieties but the main one we are concerned with it the type that destroys the amps and speakers.

OK now that Deck is set, you will tune each amp separately now.

Cabin amp. Set gain to lowest point. Now on the amp if you dont have a distortion light or sensor and the only ones i see that do are high end ones like the ones i use.

Lets assume the amp will start producing distortion at 75% also < relative to the gain setting> Rule of thumb is you generally don't gain over 60% on the amp.

Now play some music and with your cabins what your looking for first is high pass > mid bass and tweets < and you slowly turn the gains up till you see or hear this. See the woofer over working < excursion > is maxing out. Or you hear the woofer sounding like its working to hard. The music should sound really clear. Basically at this point if the amp has frequency setting you will prolly you turn this up till its around 120 hz.

Now that that's done you will do the same with the sub but its going to be set closer to the 60-80 hz range most likely You will adjust the gains the same way watching how fare the woofer is throwing. If you get a nasty punchy sound then you need to turn your gain down or change the frequency setting.

You will do this for your tower amp or the speaker the same way.

This gets you tuned so your not blowing your system.

Your direct questions.
Freq sweep the subs: Not sure what you mean? Setting the sub amp freq to 60-80 hz? Means to flatten it all out at a ) setting

Adjust subsonic filtering: Highpass the towers and in boats if you have a dedicated sub? No this is a setting the sub amp should have its a type of frequency i cant explain this as i just dont quite understand it eather but to me it makes the bass more punchy sounding

Eliminate bassboost: If th sub amp has a boost, turn it off? Yes turn off bass boost settings and loudness setting.

Integrate crossover slopes to flatten out over all tone: I dont have a clue here. Same as the subs it just means you want all the deck settings, and ipod or what ever settings at 0. This way when your setting the gains you don't have exaggerated frequencies your compensating for

I hope this at least clears some of it up for you, Im no pro but id like to think i have a clue most of the time.

After you have all this set up then you can listen to the music and see how it sounds, and if its not to your liking you can then adjust settings, this was just a nitty gritty fast way to get the most clean sound out of the system.

As for my system in my boat i run it all flat and its amazing sounding. I can link you several threads from last spring on it and on my sound tests we did.

[Razzman]

excellent post!

You earned yourself a sticky!!

What a suck up!