Ballast System Upgrade Plans

[cab13367]

Tazz,

Thanks for the post. I think your set up is one of the best out there. I will definitely take you up on your offer for advice. A few questions come to mind:

• When your bags were filling when underway, before you cut the back of the scupper off, did you have a vented loop installed and it was still filling by itself?

• Could you do us a favor and time how long it takes for one pump to fill one bag with the boat at rest and tell us the capacity of the bag. Consider the bag full when water starts coming out of the drain fitting.

Thanks,

Al

[tazz3069]

No problem

1. At first, I did the Mods to the sprinkler valves. I did not know about the vented loops yet. So while under way, the bags filled. Back to the drawing board. I was introduced to the vented loops by Jason from Wakemakers.com. I thought, what the heck I will give it a try. I tore out and immediately put those valves in the trash can. I then re plumbed and and install the vented loops. Took it out for a water test again. Bags again filled up while under way. I wanted to torch the thing. When I got home, I had to scratch my head really hard. I decided to cut the scoops off the scuppers. I went to Home Depot and purchased a dremel tool. Took the boat out again the following weekend for another water test. I had my finger, toes, hair, and anything I could cross in anticipation of the new system. Put the boat in the water, and open the valves. No water came in at all. Drove through the no wake zone and still no water. When I punched it , i had the wife and son keep on eye on the rear bags and I keep an eye on the center bag. To my surprise, no water at all. I check to see if the valves, that I opened, were open. Finally, after all that frustration and pounding of by foot, like a spoiled kid, the bugs are all out.

2. I did test the fill times on the bags. I really do not remember what the time was. I need to find an old post. I know that I posted this when Moomba had the older site up. Let me see if I can find it.

Here is the first post on the ballast failure.
https://forum.moomba.com/showthread.php?t=7992

Here is the link for the final product
https://forum.moomba.com/showthread.php?t=8985

I really hope this information helps. This is the best upgrade for people who want a faster system in the older boats.
Tazz

[cab13367]

Thanks Tazz! Lots of good info in those posts. Did u upsize your fill hoses to 1" or did u leave the stock 3/4" hose in place?

[tazz3069]

I left everything in 3/4" I could nopt get the connection off the bags. Si I have the 1" scuppers, fittings, ball joint, all the way to the pump. Then from there, I kept it 3/4"

Tazz

[cab13367]

I left everything in 3/4" I could nopt get the connection off the bags. Si I have the 1" scuppers, fittings, ball joint, all the way to the pump. Then from there, I kept it 3/4"

Tazz

Tazz,

I think you would see a significant improvement in fill times if you went 1" from the pump to the bags. I was able to get the fittings off but it wasn't easy. I heated the base of the fitting with a hair dryer on high for a good 15 minutes, then folded up the bag in such a way that I could get a good grip on it with both hands right where the fitting connects to it, then had my wife use channel locks to grab and back the fitting off. I got two of them off this way. The other one wasn't glued so it came right off.

Of course, you would have to buy 1" hose, fittings, and vented loops.

Al

[jasonwm]

Al im curious as to having both your 1200 on the same intake, are you planning to run a powered switch to both pumps separately?

Sharing one intake is a common way to save some money and reduce the number of holes that have to be drilled in the hull. As long as the intake is appropriately sized for the demand of the pumps this is not a problem.

IM not sure about the whole idea of just a check valve for the rear bags eighter.

Check valves often work for the rear bags, but ultimately a vented loop (along with a non-scooping intake fitting) is the only way to ensure water will not enter or leave the bags.

My understanding of why we need the Vented Loop is not only to help the bag not drain threw the fill line but to also allow it to not fill while under way. I know in my sprinkler valve they get stuck open a little and my rear bags fill while under way.

That is correct. We typically see rear bags draining (which can be blocked with a check valve) and front bags filling, but that is not a hard fast rule, and in reality what happens can vary depending on the model of boat, or even the day.

My plan as of right now is to run my T800s as drain pumps to stop the issue with bags not draining because the T800s are a much more efficient pump then the aerators.

Attwood's Tsunami series pumps are aerator pumps. The issue with the factory system isn't the pump, but rather the installation. Aerator pumps are not self-priming, so they need to be installed as close to the water source as possible. Contact me if you want more info on fixing your factory system.

Hold the presses, I've got some breaking news! Forgive me if you already know this but the stock fill pump, Rule model 207F, also known as the Rule 2000, is in fact a 1200 gph pump, NOT 2000 gph as the model number would imply. I've seen this on several places now. Below is a spec sheet that I pulled off an online retailer's site (see the first row in the third table and the corresponding pic to the right of it) as well as a link to another retailer that shows the 1200 gph flow rate.

Yeah, we uncovered this a few years ago in our testing of factory system.

Mike,

Yes, I would take the wiring from the sprinkler valves and connect them to the new pump. So when you hit fill, it turns that pump on.

Keep in mind that you'll need to upgrade the factory fuses to accommodate the increase in current the Tsunami pumps will draw.

The reason your rear bags filled while underway is because of the scupper on your intake. You'll have to drill holes on the scupper to ventilate it, cut it off, or replace it with a mushroom type intake. I forgot to mention that in my first post.

Cutting holes in the scoop portion is not sufficient to prevent passive filling. Either cut it off (you won't have to deal with the holes left behind), or remove it (you will have to deal with the holes, but can increase the size of the intake from 3/4" to 1" to feed more pumps.

I've never had any issues with my drain pumps - sure you just didn't have a kinked hose or something?

Issues with the system draining are fairly common. They're related to the factory location of the drain pumps for the rear bags as well as the fact that there is no vent connection on the factory bag.

The port bag is most commonly the issue, but it can effect both.

I'd definitely go with separate pumps and check valves or vented loops vs replacing the sprinkler valves with Irritrols. I think the only reason to go with Irritrols is if you don't have room for separate pumps which is why Jesse went that route.

For a lot of our customers this comes to down to cost vs. expectations. If a slight increase in fill speeds for not too much money will satisfy your expectations for the system then replacing the valves is a good route to go.

If you're ultimately trying to implement a system that is designed correctly from the start then go the discreet pump route (whether it's aerators with vented loops or flexible vane impeller pumps like the Jabsco or Johnson).

Let's get our heads together on this and figure out the best way to go. Let's get Eric (stretch) in the loop as he is at the same stage we are. He and I talked ballast systems last night on the phone until my battery went dead (LOL!).

We've probably upgraded close to 100 boats now, so let us know if you have any questions.

Sorry to jump in, But all I have to do to stop my bags from filling underway is to drill holes in the scoop ! That sounds way too simple lol

It depends on how your current system is setup, can you supply us with some additional information?

Tazz,

I think you would see a significant improvement in fill times if you went 1" from the pump to the bags. I was able to get the fittings off but it wasn't easy. I heated the base of the fitting with a hair dryer on high for a good 15 minutes, then folded up the bag in such a way that I could get a good grip on it with both hands right where the fitting connects to it, then had my wife use channel locks to grab and back the fitting off. I got two of them off this way. The other one wasn't glued so it came right off.

Of course, you would have to buy 1" hose, fittings, and vented loops.

With T800's there's no benefit to using 1" hose so stick with 3/4".

[jasonwm]

Whoa, that was a really long reply, sorry!

[tazz3069]

Tazz,

I think you would see a significant improvement in fill times if you went 1" from the pump to the bags. I was able to get the fittings off but it wasn't easy. I heated the base of the fitting with a hair dryer on high for a good 15 minutes, then folded up the bag in such a way that I could get a good grip on it with both hands right where the fitting connects to it, then had my wife use channel locks to grab and back the fitting off. I got two of them off this way. The other one wasn't glued so it came right off.

Of course, you would have to buy 1" hose, fittings, and vented loops.

Al

I thought about that. I feel pretty good now that I got rid of the sprinkler crap. If I do anything and that is if, I might put in a bow sack with its own pumps. Not sure if I want to do that. I hate at the end of the day, when I am dog tired, that I have to disconnect the hoses and try to lift the water filled bags over the side to empty the remaining water. I wish that these things will just fully empty. Why cant Moomba design a hull with built in tanks.

[tazz3069]

Tazz,

I think you would see a significant improvement in fill times if you went 1" from the pump to the bags. I was able to get the fittings off but it wasn't easy. I heated the base of the fitting with a hair dryer on high for a good 15 minutes, then folded up the bag in such a way that I could get a good grip on it with both hands right where the fitting connects to it, then had my wife use channel locks to grab and back the fitting off. I got two of them off this way. The other one wasn't glued so it came right off.

Of course, you would have to buy 1" hose, fittings, and vented loops.

Al

I thought about that. I feel pretty good now that I got rid of the sprinkler crap. If I do anything and that is if, I might put in a bow sack with its own pumps. Not sure if I want to do that. I hate at the end of the day, when I am dog tired, that I have to disconnect the hoses and try to lift the water filled bags over the side to empty the remaining water. I wish that these things will just fully empty. Why cant Moomba design a hull with built in tanks.

Hey Jason (Wakemakers.com)
Do you have a better solution on a pump or a system or something that might just help with the emptying of the bags. I have even tried to empty my bags on the boat ramp. I figured since the bow is in the air and the stern is down hill, all the water will go towards the hose. Not the case at all. I still need to remove the hoses and lift it over the side to empty. Please help.

Tazz

[jasonwm]

Hey Jason (Wakemakers.com)
Do you have a better solution on a pump or a system or something that might just help with the emptying of the bags. I have even tried to empty my bags on the boat ramp. I figured since the bow is in the air and the stern is down hill, all the water will go towards the hose. Not the case at all. I still need to remove the hoses and lift it over the side to empty. Please help.

Tazz

Unfortunately that's one of side effects of aerator pumps, because they're not self-priming they won't get all of the water out. Relocating the drain pump to be closer to the bag will help a lot, but you'll still have water in the bags.

Changing to flexible vane impeller pumps (Jabsco or Johnson) is the only solution.

Even boats with tanks that use aerator pumps (Malibu) will leave water in the tanks, you just don't know about it because the tank is rigid.