Winterizing with antifreeze on block or not ?

Hello, I just read that post https://forum.moomba.com/showthread....ith-pics-by-Al about winterizing (thanks to Al)
My concern is about antifreeze in the block or not. In that post, he just drain the block and other stuff but the guy who sell me the boat filled the block with antifreeze. Is it not better to fill it with antifreeze?
Is there not a chance to have rust in an empty block ?
for info : my boat would be in a garage but not heated during winter (with about -15°C outside)

One other question : at the spring time, did you do something special before running the engine the first time to prevent cylinger damages or with the fogging oil in the cylinders during the winterization it's enough?

Thanks in advance for your advices.

Gurt,

Since air does not freeze until -360.9F, the engine, transmission and v-drive are safe from freeze damage just by draining the water. So pink marine/rv antifreeze are not a must, but they can offer some benefits, the biggest being a rust inhibitor.

One thing about the marine/rv antifreeze, is that its not like automotive coolant/antifreeze. The pink stuff should not be diluted as it works best at 100%. If diluted, its freeze point quickly rises. So the most ideal method is to drain the water from the raw water system, then run the marine/rv though.

A boat can and should, IMO, be winterized in a way that its turn-key ready come spring. So nothing additional needs to be done to the boat before hitting the water. In theory, you should be able to back the trailer down the ramp, start the boat and go. But, I always like to start it up and let it run on the fake-a-lake first. Nothing worst then being "that guy" at the ramp on the first and busiest day of the season and the boat wont start, momma and the kids standing on the dock and you're blocking a lane.

Before fogging, I would consult your engine manufacturer. The methods and need for fogging have changed, especially with CAT engines.

Thank you MLA, about antifreeze that's what I thought. About fogging and more, I have informations on the engine user manual and this forum !

One other question : why most of the people change the oil before winterization ? An engine specialist told me that it is much better to not let a brand new oil in the block all the winter long. For me it looks logical to do it like that but most of you do it during winterization. Is there a particular reason ? except the fact that you can run your boat the first day after winter without nothing to do?

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Originally Posted by gurt

One other question : why most of the people change the oil before winterization ? An engine specialist told me that it is much better to not let a brand new oil in the block all the winter long. For me it looks logical to do it like that but most of you do it during winterization. Is there a particular reason ? except the fact that you can run your boat the first day after winter without nothing to do?

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Not sure why others do it but i prefer that the old oil with all the shizzle in it doesnt settle it has a good six months to create a shizzle pancake on the floor of the oil pan. I also do it so come spring the boat is ready to go

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Originally Posted by gurt

One other question : why most of the people change the oil before winterization ? An engine specialist told me that it is much better to not let a brand new oil in the block all the winter long. For me it looks logical to do it like that but most of you do it during winterization. Is there a particular reason ? except the fact that you can run your boat the first day after winter without nothing to do?

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There are a number of reasons to change the oil at layup.

Used oil becomes corrosive. This can eat away and pit the soft metals such as bearings and pistons
Used oil collects deposits from combustion (this is why its black when we change it) as well as a little un-burned gas
The crankcase, especially a marine engine, collects condensation through its heat up and cool down cycles. This collect as water in the bottom of the pan.

The best practice is to change the oil and filter and run it one last time for a couple of minutes prior to storage.

For winterization, I like to run anti-freeze in the block. Sometimes, I may drain the block too. If you look at all of the nooks and crannies in the engine block, I don't like the odds of all or the water getting out of all of those spaces. While I know there may be room for expansion during a freeze, it's cheap for me to run antifreeze to make sure that doesn't happen. I also like the rust protection. In the south, if may be freezing for 4-5 days and in the 60s with rain, giving a lot of humidity a chance to do its thing.

What is the difference in oil sitting on the self in a bottle or in your engine? Used oil carries a lot of things that can damage engines if they sit for a while. Change it at the process.

I leave the impeller OUT of the boat. It sits in place and will deform the fins which will lead to failure. Also, I believe that there is added stress to the shaft and seal. Leaving the impeller out means the new one should be peak for the season at the start.

Fogging should be done according to the manual for your engine. For most newer engines, that is just shooting into the spark plug holes.

Today I did the steps to winterize but could not remove vdrive bolts I then put RV antifreeze in the vdrive and then used my air compressor to push this all through the vdrive and repeated this procedure How does everyone feel about this approach it semed like was able to work

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Originally Posted by drb59

Today I did the steps to winterize but could not remove vdrive bolts I then put RV antifreeze in the vdrive and then used my air compressor to push this all through the vdrive and repeated this procedure How does everyone feel about this approach it semed like was able to work

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What vdrive bolts are you talking about? Drain the block, heads and disconnect the hoses going to the water pump/vdrive This should remove a majority of the water. Then hook up a fake a lake connected to a tank of RV/Marine anti-freeze. Run it until all pink comes out. Fog it for the last 20 seconds. That should do it.

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Originally Posted by MJR63

What vdrive bolts are you talking about? Drain the block, heads and disconnect the hoses going to the water pump/vdrive This should remove a majority of the water. Then hook up a fake a lake connected to a tank of RV/Marine anti-freeze. Run it until all pink comes out. Fog it for the last 20 seconds. That should do it.

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There are two drain bolts on the vdrive 1 front right one back left.

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Originally Posted by drb59

Today I did the steps to winterize but could not remove vdrive bolts I then put RV antifreeze in the vdrive and then used my air compressor to push this all through the vdrive and repeated this procedure How does everyone feel about this approach it semed like was able to work

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That is more than sufficient. If you drained the water out of it, then poured antifreeze in the intake you will find that it takes very little before you have it coming out the outlet.

How are y'all adding antifreeze?


Sent from my iPhone

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Originally Posted by rdlangston13

How are y'all adding antifreeze?


Sent from my iPhone

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I pull a hose from the thermostat housing and fill till it is fill then reconnect the hose. Usually takes 3-4 gallons to fill.

I can't remember which hose.

Keep in mind I have not lived in a place with a hard freeze.

Thanks I thought this was good enough but wanted reassurance. I bought a bimini and the dealership will install in the spring so I will get them to loosen the bolts at that time for next season winterization.

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Originally Posted by rdlangston13

How are y'all adding antifreeze?


Sent from my iPhone

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I pull the j pipe off the tstat and fill w antifreeze here after I have drained the block and sucked out water in the hose with a shop vac. Dont forget your heater if you have one

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Originally Posted by DOCDRS

I pull the j pipe off the tstat and fill w antifreeze here after I have drained the block and sucked out water in the hose with a shop vac. Dont forget your heater if you have one

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So basically if I have to drain the block and disconnect the hoses there is really no point in doing this. I was hoping it would be something super simple so I could avoid draining everything


Sent from my iPhone

For the past two winters I have just hooked a hose up to the raw water intake and put it in a bucket of marine antifreeze that is under the exhaust behind the boat. Then I just fire the boat up and let it run for about 20 or so minutes till I know I have the water flushed out of the engine. I thought this was correct. Is that not true? I don't drain the motor prior to running antifreeze in it.

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Originally Posted by walb0244

For the past two winters I have just hooked a hose up to the raw water intake and put it in a bucket of marine antifreeze that is under the exhaust behind the boat. Then I just fire the boat up and let it run for about 20 or so minutes till I know I have the water flushed out of the engine. I thought this was correct. Is that not true? I don't drain the motor prior to running antifreeze in it.

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Walb,

I wont tell you your method is wrong, but here is some food for thought. The marine/rv antifreeze is best at 100%. Its not meant to be diluted with water, like automotive antifreeze. For this reason, theres no way to really say what the freeze protection level is, once diluted as you have done. Its a guess at best.

I will admit, that I did basically the same as you, on a boat I used to own. It was too hard to reach the drain plugs, so I just cycled a few gallons of the pink stuff through it. Down here in NC, we get cold spells, but not long cold periods. I was completely comfortable with what I was doing, because I knew I was diluting the antifreeze. Owned that boat for 4 years and never an issue. After getting the tow boat after that one, we rode year round. I would just drain the water on the boat ramp, put the plugs back in and tow her home. Boat was turn key ready for the next warm day and I never used the antifreeze again. Once I figured the routine out, it only took about 10 mins to drain block and put everything back together.

Marine antifreeze looses its protection dramatically if its diluted. Sucking it up into a non drained engine at idle will give you a false sense of security. Take a thermostat with a thermometer and put it into a pot of water on the stove. You will be surprised how little it opens at 160. Now you tell me how long its going to take to get all the water out of the block and diluted with the antifreeze? So if you use 5 gallons of antifreeze and you do manage to distribute it with all the water in the intake line, block, heater, exhaust manifold, muffler(yes , lots of water in the muffler-try draining it sometime)....you have diluted it in half or more.....your protection is greatly reduced and at idle pressures you are luck to have fully reached all the passageways in the block.....plus your spending 20 minutes of running the motor......why not just drain the block, and the intake lines then the antifreeze will go directly into your block and the dilution wont be as great.

Or you could run it for 20 plus minutes and check the specific gravity to determine the diluted burst protection......

A solution of -50 antifreeze diluted in half will only provide a burst protection of +15 deg F.

The first year I owned the boat I did drain everything per the thread with pictures on here. The following year I had to replace an exhaust manifold due to a crack in it. If I need to drain the water and then run antifreeze then I will. I just didn't know.

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Originally Posted by walb0244

The first year I owned the boat I did drain everything per the thread with pictures on here. The following year I had to replace an exhaust manifold due to a crack in it. If I need to drain the water and then run antifreeze then I will. I just didn't know.

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When you drain your exhaust manifolds via the quick disconnect you have to make sure that water flows from both lines.....the drain hose/fitting on the manifold can become plugged and the manifold may not drain completely. I placed a t on mine and clamping one hose I can drain one manifold at a time to make sure neither fitting is plugged.....just poke your block drain hole and you will see the debris that can plug holes

Hi, after reading your posts, I think I found the solution that I will use. First I will drain (block, manifold, etc) and then fill with antifreeze with this method :
http://tof.canardpc.com/preview2/89a...5e5c423704.jpg
I will put a tubular system into the exhaust so I can have all the antifreeze into a bucket wich is pumped back to the "main" antifreeze bucket. The "main" antifreeze bucket is connected to the boat via a fake-a-lake.
In this way, I don't loose liquid on the ground, I make a antifreeze loop so the boat can run idle for the necessary period. I also plan to use the same antifreeze solution for more than one winter. In my case the antifreeze will be an glycolic pink that need to be diluated (depending on the antifreeze level you need but around 50%). I think (and hope) it is a good solution, I just need to buy a pump

I ran a fake lake for 15 mins and then changed my oil, after this i pulled all my plugs ( trans/motor) disconnected my hoses, opened up my heater hoses and blew out water, drained water out of ballasts pumps added antifreeze to them. Once all this was completed i plumbed in a hose to intake of the water strainer were the water comes into the boat from the lake and cycled antifreeze through the boat for 20 mins, approx 4 gallons of antifreeze is sitting in the system, pulled the impeller. Once that was done i pulled the spark plugs and squirted a bit of oil into each cylinder. I hope this works cause it gettin cold out.

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Originally Posted by duch17

I ran a fake lake for 15 mins and then changed my oil, after this i pulled all my plugs ( trans/motor) disconnected my hoses, opened up my heater hoses and blew out water, drained water out of ballasts pumps added antifreeze to them. Once all this was completed i plumbed in a hose to intake of the water strainer were the water comes into the boat from the lake and cycled antifreeze through the boat for 20 mins, approx 4 gallons of antifreeze is sitting in the system, pulled the impeller. Once that was done i pulled the spark plugs and squirted a bit of oil into each cylinder. I hope this works cause it gettin cold out.

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looks good, I assume you added stabil to your gas tank before you ran your motor and forgot to mention it

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Originally Posted by gurt

Hi, after reading your posts, I think I found the solution that I will use. First I will drain (block, manifold, etc) and then fill with antifreeze with this method :

I will put a tubular system into the exhaust so I can have all the antifreeze into a bucket wich is pumped back to the "main" antifreeze bucket. The "main" antifreeze bucket is connected to the boat via a fake-a-lake.
In this way, I don't loose liquid on the ground, I make a antifreeze loop so the boat can run idle for the necessary period. I also plan to use the same antifreeze solution for more than one winter. In my case the antifreeze will be an glycolic pink that need to be diluated (depending on the antifreeze level you need but around 50%). I think (and hope) it is a good solution, I just need to buy a pump

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That will work, but if you want to simplify things just run a longer hose from your fake-a-lake to the bucket under your exhaust. And really don't need to put any pvc on the exhaust to catch it. Just a bucket or two, maybe a large storage container.

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Originally Posted by brain_rinse

That will work, but if you want to simplify things just run a longer hose from your fake-a-lake to the bucket under your exhaust. And really don't need to put any pvc on the exhaust to catch it. Just a bucket or two, maybe a large storage container.

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Agreed; no need for a pump. In fact, when we winterized our I/O with this method, there was enough water suction that it would suck the hose flat to the bottom of the bucket. We solved this by drilling a few holes in the hose, and notching the cut end so it wasn't flat.

Also: we added an extra rust inhibitor to our anti-freeze (like this: http://prestone.com/enca/node/425 ). Note that although it looks in the internet picture like a typical gallon container, it's just 14 ozs. in real life.

Here you go:

https://forum.moomba.com/album.php?albumid=320

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Originally Posted by gurt

Hi, after reading your posts, I think I found the solution that I will use. First I will drain (block, manifold, etc) and then fill with antifreeze with this method :
http://tof.canardpc.com/preview2/89a...5e5c423704.jpg
I will put a tubular system into the exhaust so I can have all the antifreeze into a bucket wich is pumped back to the "main" antifreeze bucket. The "main" antifreeze bucket is connected to the boat via a fake-a-lake.
In this way, I don't loose liquid on the ground, I make a antifreeze loop so the boat can run idle for the necessary period. I also plan to use the same antifreeze solution for more than one winter. In my case the antifreeze will be an glycolic pink that need to be diluated (depending on the antifreeze level you need but around 50%). I think (and hope) it is a good solution, I just need to buy a pump

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I think this will be the way I will do to winterize my Mojo :

Winterization part 1 (at the lake)

Put the boat on the trailer
Clean the hull
Empty the ballasts
Put the fuel stabilizer
Full the tank


Winterization part 2 (at home)

Clean water filters (if present)
Remove the ballasts and clean/dry them
Drain water in the block, manifold, V-drive, etc
Check V-drive anode and replace if necessary (min 19mm)
Reconnect all the drain and hoses
Connect the fake-a-lake “loop without pump” system with antifreeze
Run the engine for 10-15 minutes
Check engine temperature !!
Wait few minutes for the oil to cool down
Change engine, V-drive, Gearbox oil and oil filter
Run the engine few minutes
Remove spark plug and spray fogging oil in each cylinder
Run the starter 1 second without starting the engine (you have to disconnect “something”)
Install old spark plugs
Inspect the belts and replace if necessary
Remove the battery and keep it inside and charged during winter
Remove the water pump impeller, grease it and place it in a sealed bag
Remove the ballast impellers, grease them and place them in a sealed bag
Grease steering cables, starter bendix, etc
Clean your boat inside/outside
Place dehumidifier in your boat
Put something under each seat and cover to allow air to circulate
Put the cover and store your boat


During the winter

Check if the dehumidifier are not full
Keep the battery inside, connected to a charger to maintain it charged


Before the season part 1 (at home)

Remove dehumidifier
Check and refresh your antifouling if necessary
Check and replace the anodes under the hull if necessary
Remove the old spark plugs and spray fogging oil in each cylinder
Run the starter 1 second without starting the engine (you have to disconnect “something”)
Install new spark plugs with dielectric grease
Clean flame arrestor and breather hose and replace PCV valve
Drain antifreeze in the block, manifold, etc (keep it for next winter)
Install raw water impeller
Reconnect all the drain and hoses
Install ballasts impellers
Install ballasts
Install battery
Clean your boat


Before the season part 2 (at the lake)

Put the boat in the water, be careful to be sure that the thru hull intake for the raw water is in the water
Start your engine and check the temperature


During the season

Check oil level (block, V-drive and Gearbox) at each time you refuel
Replace block, V-drive and Gearbox oil and the oil filter each 30-35 hours

What are you going to grease the impellers with? I would suggest 100% silicone over anything thats petroleum based

How many hours on your 2012? It will not need new plugs, unless its time based on hours. If thats the case, then the wires, cap and rotor if applicable, would also be due.

The only thing different I would do, is fire the boat up on the fake-a-lake first, as opposed to doing at the ramp. Just in case.

I will grease the impellers with Motul Tech Grease 300 (Multipurpose grease, formulated with synthetic base oil stocks and from complex lithium soap, with extreme-pressure, anti-wear, anti-oxidation and anti-corrosion additivation).

My 2012 add about 435h when I bought it and now 500h (I did 65h this season). In the indmar manual they say to change spark plug annualy, that's why I plan to do it.

I'm not sure to understand your last point... I don't plan to fire the boat up at the ramp but at home, do you mean I should connect the fake a lake on the ramp first and not at home ? I never plan to fire up the boat without the fake-a-lake. In wich case ?
Thanks

Is it better to fill the tank with gas for winterization or leave empty or half full? Or does it matter? It seems like I hear something different from everybody I talk to about it.

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Originally Posted by jntMobiusLSV

Is it better to fill the tank with gas for winterization or leave empty or half full? Or does it matter? It seems like I hear something different from everybody I talk to about it.

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If you are forced to fill with ethanol blended fuel, the ideal method is to leave the tank near empty and treat with an addative that is designed to address the side effects of ethanol over time. Ethanol is like a sponge, and will absorb moisture at a greater rate then just plan gasoline. Once its saturated, the water and ethanol will fall out of suspension. This is called phase separation and leaves a blob in bottom of the tank. This will likely result in a no-start condition or the engine will run for a little, then stall when the fuel/water filter become full. The less fuel in the tank over the season, the less water that could be absorbed.

If you do choose to top off the tank, dont go much past 3/4 tank. As the spring temps warm up, the fuel will expand and purge out of the vent and down the side of the boat.

I never buy ethanol for the boat, so I fill it up per the manual.