What was that one little hint that fixed your heelside jump to get pop?

Howdy. I've been here for years, but remained on a stubborn plateau. Basically, I can't do a wakeboard jump very well at all. Wait, correction -- I can and have, but only a few times when I was experimenting with technique, and could not reproduce what I did right.

I'm looking for you guys to remember what, beyond the obvious of what all the instructional videos and "introduction to jumping" tutorials say, helped you get some really good pop off the wake.

I've solicited help from better riders, seen The Book and Detention 2012, and even paid a coach (who showed up hung over and underslept). Everyone and everything seems to gloss over exactly what needs to happen in that last yard or two as you are getting to and up and wake. Right now, I am going through the LearnWake.com on-line videos, which do add some drills to the Book DVD.

One thing that's failed is asking someone to take a video recording of my drills. They get bored, put the camera down by the time that I've barely finished warming up, and miss the few times that I do something better. Repeat, week after week, season after season. For tomorrow, I've secured a promise to video EVERY jump attempt. In the meantime, I can say that my jumps look pretty much like every other beginner video on Youtube, where the poor sap just cannot seem to stand tall at the wake -- bent knees, somewhat absorbing the wake's energy.

I need to know what the trick YOU found to getting that pop WITHOUT herculean leg strength. As I said above, I've done it, but still cannot figure out what went right.

Years of "working on it" have not led to success. When I was learning to jump on a hydrofoil, a visiting expert did give me a couple of golden hints that our on-board senior rider never thought to tell me. I'm hoping that this thread will replicate that success.

I'm looking for very specific, not general, hints. For example "don't attack the wake" is general, while "approach a bit slower with the board pointed X degrees from perpendicular to the boat" is specific. "Fear is ruining you" is general, while "you are hesitating and slowing down just before the wake" is specific.

Some of the advice that I have received helped with one-wake drills, but not wake-to-wake jumps. The forces are just too high. Something specific and fixable is still wrong and no one has spotted it yet. I am sure that most of you have been in the same spot, so what was that last correction to your technique that helped the most?

In case any of you have read my past posts: knee surgery succeeded in stopping the deterioration. I'm also adding bow sacs to better balance my XLV, which produces too-steep of a wake when there are too many people on board. So, those technical roadblocks have been addressed.

Thanks in advance!

As mentioned in another thread, make sure you don't absorb the energy in your legs. If you approach the wake and let your knees flex you make the jump worthless as you have no pop. If you are having a hard time standing tall at the top of the wake, just try keeping your legs slightly bent, but firm and locked and keep that stance all the way through and see if you can transfer the pop from the ramp into your jump, sometimes its hard for people to time standing tall at the top of the wake and push too soon at the trough and get the same result as absorbing the wake.

Also another thing, keep on edge all the way up the wake. My brother is one example. He comes in hard but at the trough of the wake he eases up and has lost a ton of energy approaching the wake. He crests on the other side and the landing is hard. You don't need to carve so hard that the spray hits the people in the boat, but keep a nice slow carve at the beginning and slowly increases the tension all the way up the wake. Also shorten the line to get the feeling of wake to wake and gradually increase the length as you get better.

First, you need to repeat hitting the wake. When you practice, start, let the boat get to speed and then hit the wake. There doesn't need to be a "warm up" for falling. Yes, your driver will be picking you up a lot.

If you REALLY aren't getting it, start jumping 1 wake. Start on the right (or left) wake, board across the prop wash and hit the wake for a jump. While doing this, ensure proper load on the rope, proper posture of the body and legs, and concnetrate on technique that the videos talk about. You won't get as much air as the trough is lower, but it will work.

Next, shorten your line for wake to wake. The shorter the line, the narrower the wake.

Practice.

Edge at the wake with your board at a 45 degree angle. Set your edge by leaning against the rope instead of using the fins on the board. Use the whole wake, meaning ride all the way up it and really use the lip of the wake. Also keep the handle in close to your body. One you get some video post it up and it will give us a chance to give you some more specific tips.

Learning how to load the line, edging correctly and standing tall with the handle at your hip will get you up in the air.

The best way for me to retain line tension when cutting towards the wake is the almost drag my ass on the water. Keep that line tight by your hip and lean back/bend your knees as you cut. Always watch the base of the wake as you are approaching it, then push your legs straight (at least close to it) as your rolling up the base. The flatter your board is as you ride up the wake, the better the pop. Also remember to not absorb the wake with your knees....dont use them as shock absorbers. DO NOT let off the line tension (meaning, stay on your edge) or you will likely get no pop, or be way off balance even if you do get the pop you're looking for.


**I wanted to edit this to say again that I almost have to drag my ass to get the pop/speed needed for wake jumps and tricks. I line up with the boat and allow it to initiate the pull back towards the wake, then I start my progressive cut slowly dropping lower and lower to the water and loading the line. The guys I ride with can tell the instant I start my cut whether or not i'm committed to the trick i'm trying based on where my ass is compared to the water:D. It will take a lot of watching and experimenting, but maintaining your edge and hitting the wake strong (not mushy) will be the end point you want.

I am afraid that today's effort to get some video footage went poorly. Normally my lake is sparsely attended, but today saw about 3X more traffic than I have ever seen. It was difficult to get more than a few seconds of good water before hitting other boats' wakes. I expended most of my limited stamina on warmup and drills, so my jumps were even worse rubbish than usual. I had a laundry list of variations to try, including bzubke1's 45-degree suggestion, but I never got that far. I'll have to try again on my cottage vacation this week.

I did get through some of LearnWake.com's "standing tall" drill with no problem whatsoever. However, it did not help in the least when trying to jump wake-to-wake. I find that lots of the better-known advice help somewhat when doing one-wake drills, but not when advancing to wake-to-wake jumps.

Here's the thing: people can say to "stand tall at the wake" all day. I know that that's essential and have been trying for YEARS. I find that it's just too much of a blast on my legs, most of the time. Then once a season or so, I make some variation and it works like magic -- black magic that I still don't understand and cannot replicate often. No huge burst of strength was required. Without know what went right, I cannot practice that good technique. I need more tweaks like bzubke1's 45-degree suggestion. Please keep them coming.

Most of the other riders I've met have had this problem. The few who overcame it just cannot seem to articulate what they are doing. Over on LearnWake's forums, there are tons of postings with similar issues, trying to tease out some more information that the experts seem to consider either too obvious or inconsequential to state until specifically asked.

So, if you ever had a problem with standing tall at the wake, how specifically did you overcome it?

Thanks again.

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Special question for Brando86: in your response, you first said "The flatter your board is as you ride up the wake, the better the pop", but then your second paragraph drove home the point about being on edge. So, flat or on edge on the wake? Please elaborate if possible.

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Originally Posted by Ian Brantford

"The flatter your board is as you ride up the wake, the better the pop", but then your second paragraph drove home the point about being on edge. So, flat or on edge on the wake? Please elaborate if possible.

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This never made sense to me either. If you are on a 45 and edged out how the heck can you "stand tall" without giving up the edge or unloading off the line?

Ian, I feel you, bro! I am in the exact same situation. I have been wakeboarding since 2005, and just cannot get my jumps consistent. I haven probably made 10-15 excellent wake jumps with tons of pop, but I have no idea what I did to get that. The harder I try to recreate it, the worse my jumps get.

Lately, I have been trying to not think about it as much. I have been trying to edge to the wake with my legs already straight, so that avoids the whole standing tall issue. However, you can't cut from very far out and do that. I have been going just outside the wash, maybe 10 feet from the wake, keeping my legs straight, and drifting into the wake. I think I anticipate the wake too much, so I have been trying to not really look at, just kind of look at the shoreline beyond. This helps since I don't know when I will hit the wake, I won't anticipate it.

It kind of reminds me of firing a gun, some people flinch when they fire it because they are anticipating the shot. My brother busted me big time once with this by asking me to shoot his 7 mag rifle, but not chambering a round. I pulled the trigger and jerked the rifle, even though it didn't fire. What an a-hole, but it did prove a point!

The other thing I have trouble with is breaking at the waist and letting the handle out. I have been trying to keep a stacked body position, meaning keep my body in a straight line from my feet to my head, perpendicular to the board. that way the energy of the wake is pushing straight up through my body, and my weight/ center of gravity is aligned with the axis of the force. If I bend at the waist, forward usually, then the energy and force of the wake pushes my body into a curve and I fall out the front. Along with this is keeping the handle glued to the hip. The line needs to be pulling at your center of gravity in order to stay upright during the jump. If the handle comes out and up, it forces you to break and the waist and it pulls you over as well. I wish someone made a hook that I could wrap around my waist that I could hook the handle on.

This also relates to regulating the line tension. The more tension generated, then the more likely to get pulled forward and break at the waist, and then you lose the axis of force acting on you. However, with not enough tension, there sill be no air. I have yet to figure out what the optimum line tensions should be.

I don't know if any of this will help, but I just wanted you to know that you are not alone, and that these are the things that I have been working on, that seem to be helping, but it is slow going.

I think alot of it is a mental issue. I am very analytical and into the physics of things, and I think that hinders me quite a bit. I also have OCD, so that doesn't help much either. I think if I could get out of my head more, I would have better results.

Good luck!

This biggest thing that holds me up from going big is the fear of crashing. I've had a few BIG face slappers and it scared the shit out of me, cos it hurt.
I am almost making it W2W, I know I could do it easily if I just said "F@$k it" and just charged hard and not worried about getting an "amber-lamps" ride afterwards.

For me, I get the most pop by edging out as far as I can on my TS, and then setting on my HS and cut back to the boat with a progressively harder cut, the closer I get. Then as I hit the trough I kind of roll my feet and board forwards to toward the boat (pivot through my ankles) to flatten the board out some and then do a sort of jump/stand, as if you were to jump in slow-mo. I exaggerate the pop and lift my front foot higher than the rear, so that I have less chance of doing a digger, but I am sure that saps some of the jump energy when I do it. This is my second season wakeboarding and I'm 37...so I'm not in a hurry to kill myself yet like some of these fearless kids I see that just do whatever without any fear.

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Originally Posted by Ian Brantford

Special question for Brando86: in your response, you first said "The flatter your board is as you ride up the wake, the better the pop", but then your second paragraph drove home the point about being on edge. So, flat or on edge on the wake? Please elaborate if possible.

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I suppose this could get particularly confusing, but think of it as though you're cutting but your legs are bent and you are charging the wake at that 45 degree angle. Now...with those things being considered, you're likely standing on a 60/40 split with more weight being placed on your back leg. The best way to describe the standing tall motion is to still lean against the line in order to keep the tension, but you're wanting to straighten your legs on the edge(or think of a trampoline...you'd push down to get higher). While you're cutting towards the wake you're displacing a ton of water that will balance out your body at the 45 degree cut while your legs are straight. Now "Straight" does not actually mean that your legs MUST be straight....they actually just need to be firm. Your legs can be bent at a 90 degree angle once you approach the wake as long as they are FIRM, not soft/mushy.

Honestly, before you work on getting "pop" off the wake, you need to work on your edge towards the wake. Forget the "stand tall" at the wake for a few trips out and focus solely on maintaining your edge and hitting the wake with stiff legs. One thing I cant really give advice on is how to hit while on edge because it will totally screw you up over and over in the beginning. Progressively cut towards the wake, and remember one thing...you should never be cutting harder towards the wake than when you're at the base of the wake. Cut out, let the boat initiate your cut and progressively cut harder and harder and harder until you're in the air...otherwise you will not retain balance in the air. I'm going to assume that you're a pretty smart guy because you're entirely over analyzing your technique. It took me 3 years to get across the wake and this is what finally got me there...it just takes a lot of trial and error. Once you understand the idea of the hardest edge coming at the last possible second while keeping your legs stiff, you'll be able to progress quickly since stability also comes with the cut.

Do a few drills where you're hitting the wake on a good edge, but go ahead and absorb the wake to get a feel for it. Once you're comfortable with how fast you're cruising towards the wake (which will always feel crazy fast at first), hit the wake with stiffness. Imagine dropping from a roof onto a trampoline - you're going to naturally try to absorb that bounce with your knees so you dont end up back on the roof. If you hit that trampline with stiff legs you'll get booted...this is what you want :)

Ian,

Have you seen the video below on wakeworld? I found it to be very helpful.

http://www.wakeworld.com/news/featur...ariations.html

Al

If you edge in and pop right you don't have to be going crazy fast. Basically sit in a chair thats leaned back at 45 degrees as you edge in. once you are at the wake, stand up out of the chair but retain your 45 degree orientation to the water

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Originally Posted by rdlangston13

If you edge in and pop right you don't have to be going crazy fast. Basically sit in a chair thats leaned back at 45 degrees as you edge in. once you are at the wake, stand up out of the chair but retain your 45 degree orientation to the water

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I wrote like 5 pages of information, and you wrote 3 sentences and summed it up better than me. :D

...and remember.....commit to it, don't back off last second.

If the thought of crashing is intimidating maybe stick to wakesurfing or come to the conclusion that maybe wake to wake is not for you right now. I admit I am getting of that age where crashing hard doesn't seem as appealing as it used to so I tend to take it easy.

Brando, I like the trampoline analogy .

Rd the chair also visualizes it .

Thanks...

this thread is great.. I can soooo fit in with brian and ian. rode a wakeboard enough to get good at getting up, going across the wakes and switch riding, but jumping has been weak at best. I think at the end of the day, my fear is the faceplant. as mentioned, I've fallen a couple of times and had it hurt.

fortunately I don't ride with anyone that is any better at boarding so the couple times a year I get up and ride, they are impressed at the fact that I get up on my first try :)

thank god for wakesurfing. at least I can be good at something....

I keep telling myself next year is the year I'll go w2w. so 2013 it is :)

You guys are really helping now. Can you get a little more specific about the "when"? You said, "when you are at the wake". Does this mean when the front of your board reaches the wake or when you have started up it or is anytime about then OK?

Right when you reach the trough or "the bottom of the ramp" your legs should be locked hard.

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Originally Posted by Stazi

Right when you reach the trough or "the bottom of the ramp" your legs should be locked hard.

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I agree with this. It takes just long enough to process the thought that I start the standing tall motion/locking legs when the front of the board is at the base of the wake. By the time I think it through i've already hit the wake and am airborne. On another note, I finally balled up and charged the wake hard enough to land about 5 feet into the flats this past weekend. That is fun, but not as easy on the knees:)

My advice is to take all the information everyone has given and use it.....it is good information. I would add getting a helmet. I know it sounds dorky but I am telling you it will probably get you over that mental block. I bought one last year and even though I wasn't any better at wakeboarding for some reason it got me over the mental block and I started "trying" more tricks. It helped me improve my wake 2 wake last year. I went from going W2W at 60 ft to being able to do it at 75 ft and still able to land in the flats if I want. Just my $.02

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Originally Posted by Lawdog

My advice is to take all the information everyone has given and use it.....it is good information. I would add getting a helmet. I know it sounds dorky but I am telling you it will probably get you over that mental block. I bought one last year and even though I wasn't any better at wakeboarding for some reason it got me over the mental block and I started "trying" more tricks. It helped me improve my wake 2 wake last year. I went from going W2W at 60 ft to being able to do it at 75 ft and still able to land in the flats if I want. Just my $.02

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I wear a helmet too when I want to practicing jumping bigger. I couldn't care less at the jeers my buddies give me. I need to be able to stay alive and keep working to provide for my family.

as for videos i had the same issues trusting someone to film well.. i have had the air trakker camera mount on my tower for a few years now.. works great.. not sure if the guy still makes the product or not any more..


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gM5IlTdoPjI

i was always getting hurt from never being able to progress at wakeboarding, I'm getting older now, so i just strictly wakesurf and have been trying to progress with that.

Pretty good info in this thread. The chair analogy is prob the best way to visualize it. A good drill to make it practical is a standing tall drill.

Edge out like you are going to setup up for a toe side wake jump until the edge no longer get you anywhere. Once you find this spot hold the position for a count of 3. Then while holding the edge stand tall against the line and lock out your legs for a count of 3. You will know that your are doing it correctly if the spray from your board doesn't change any.

Do this 4-5 times then attempt a wake jump, you should recognize a noticible difference in pop.

helmet is a must, and maybe even a mouth guard. Who cares if your buddies jib you about it. It will give you that extra boost since you feel more confident in pushing yourself.

Just bumping this thread back up for one of the guys looking for help. This thread probably helped me more than anything else in a long while. Enjoy! Maybe some new advice from our better riders???????

I finally got wake to wake (HS only so far) down last year to where I can do it consistently, and land out in the flats if I want - though landing on downside wake is much softer...anyway, 3 things made it happen:

1. Speed up - nothing crazy, but 22mph made a big difference over 20 to learn
2. Shorten the line
3. Try to hit the wake at a 90 degree angle. I know 45 is ideal, but I think by "trying" to hit it straight on, it probably ended up putting me at the correct 45. Trying to hit 45, I was definitely not hitting it straight on enough to get any pop.

hold you edge all the way up the wake, do not flatten out and make sure you use a progressive edge. If you hold the edge all the way up the wake you will pop off the top, oh and make sure handle is at your hips and you will be good to go. By edging up all the way thru the wake you will no absorb the wake with you knees thus not getting any pop.

Feeling a little stoked now because I *finally* broke my rut and can do some nice wake-to-wake jumps now. Before, I could do a jump, but it was low with no hang time at all, and I would usually case the wake and fall.

So here's the one thing that helped me out; thought I would share. It's the only thing that I changed last night, and it did the trick.

I had my son video all of my jumps one day (I should do this more often, heh), and noticed that when I edge in, my rear shoulder was very low and my lead shoulder was very high. What this meant was that I had all of my weight on my back foot, none on the front. Or probably it was more like 80/20 weight distribution. I didn't know I was doing it.

Anyway, to correct it, right at the beginning of the coast, as I was going into the sit position (see http://www.learnwake.com/videos/hs-j...erfect-set-up/ and watch the setup for the first jump in that video), I very purposefully make sure that I had exactly 50/50 weight on each foot. Then during the edge, kept that 50/50 (which was easy, once you started out that way). Boom, big jumps landing three feet out in the flats, and consistent landings.

Of course this little correction goes along with all of the other stuff...mainly a progressive edge and standing tall at the top of the wake.

I've always been able to get good pop, but feel that the rope doesn't stay close to my hip in the air. Any ideas?

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Originally Posted by snyderaaron

I've always been able to get good pop, but feel that the rope doesn't stay close to my hip in the air. Any ideas?

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Without seeing a video i would say your edge is taking you away form the boat thus not allowing you to keep the handle close. If you relax the edge a little that may give you a little more control on the handle as well as more pop because your energy will be a more upward motion rather than away.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

dhyams,

As mentioned in some of the other posts, that is exactly what I was doing. It is amazing the difference it makes to get the proper weight on the front foot, it just boots you!

Howdy. Wow, I really set off a long and intensive thread here! Thanks for all the feedback. I especially appreciate the comments that fall outside of the usual stuff and point out less obvious problems like angle of attack and weight balance.

However, none of these issues were what's been wasting my wakeboarding life since 2005. I found it, after putting together many comments from others over time and drawing a conclusion that they just weren't able to articulate: the wake is way too steep because I have been balancing the boat wrong. Yep, that's been the blocking factor that nullified all other progress with careful training and technique.

Unfortunately, the only others who have ridden behind on my boat and could have pointed directly to the problem didn't really put it together in an obvious way -- it just seemed that my boat makes a steeper wake than some. Those who might have pointed to a straightforward fix didn't say so because they had the skills to adapt for the day. Even my buddy's slightly newer XLV always seemed a bit better, despite his apparently similar use of ballast. I never looked in detail. So, I was aware of an issue, and was always happier when putting a couple of people in the bow, but never considered this to be a super-critical issue.

This changed when I thought about what it says on the transom: "Official boat of the Gravity Games". It's got the 1000 lb (or an 1180 if you really do the math) center bag and two 500 lb rear ballast bags. In competition, it carries a driver, possibly an observer, and that's it. While I upgraded the original Gravity III to a 1180 with two 750's and seldom filled the 750's to more than about 500... I never compensated for passengers in the main seating area, except for sometimes asking one or two to sit in the bow, and that's when I got my occasional "hey, there's some pop" results.

So two days ago, I tried it with NO original ballast, just three people on board, plus an extra bag with about 300 lbs in it sitting in the bow. Bam! The wake was much easier to ascend without that Herculean effort that was breaking my body. My trick knee was acting up too much to take good advantage, but a nephew finally said that the wake was just like with the Malibu in the wakeboarding course that I sent him to get in a previous season.

Also, my old boots were getting soft without my noticing, so I replaced my boots and board late last season. That also improved things independently, but didn't fix thing problem for my entire crew.

So, now I have to start learning to jump on a wakeboard all over again. Oh, well. Those upgraded rear bags won't see much use outside of the occasional wakesurfing set from now on.

Executive summary: don't bother wakeboarding unless you properly balance the frickin' boat; if an experienced person says "the wake on your boat is steep", that means it need fixing.

Wow! Well, sorry we didn't think of that, but the wake is really important. Steep wakes are aggravating if you are not used to them. I am not a big fan of them, and yes, more weight in the rear makes the wake more steep and more weight in the front make it less steep.

I think a lot of people go overboard on ballast, and a huge wake can make it difficult to progress at wakeboarding. We took my buddies Tige Z3 to Smith Mountain Lake this weekend, and he likes to run it with the ballast mostly filled (he has the 2300# pro system) and the wake is just too big and steep. I much preferred it with the ballast empty. I was still landing in the flats with only about 75% effort. Of course he loves the huge wake, but he has about 5 inverts and loves to go big into the flats.

The other good thing about less ballast: think of how much money you will save on fuel!

I've been messing around with some similar problems. Lately, it seems that the handle is getting pulled from my hand when landing. I've come to the conclusion that it's not being pulled out, I'm just to far forward on landing and it would pull me over for a faceplant and I've been letting go and coasting to a stop. My board tip still seems to be popping up and I'm consciously working on putting more weight on the front when coming in. I'm still working on keeping the handle tucked closer in to my body, but it's not comfortable for me at this point and I seem to carry in less speed than with arms extended. When I first got the boat, I filled them to 50% and it scarred the hell outta me when I exploded off it and was bobbing around dazed for a few minutes. I can't even wrap my head around filling them all the way.

Lately, I've been running my GIII bags around 25% full and it still seems to 'rampy' for me at this time. It's becoming counter productive because now I'm becoming afraid of pending falls when landing in the flats. I think I might try your advice and just load up the bow and keep the back empty and see what happens this weekend.

Also another thing, keep on edge all the way up the wake. My brother is one example. He comes in hard but at the trough of the wake he eases up and has lost a ton of energy approaching the wake. He crests on the other side and the landing is hard. You don't need to carve so hard that the spray hits the people in the boat, but keep a nice slow carve at the beginning and slowly increases the tension all the way up the wake. Also shorten the line to get the feeling of wake to wake and gradually increase the length as you get better.

This. I'm not even a good wakeboarder but once I learned to start with a nice slow curve and build tension all the way through the wake, I started easily going w2w. Before I'd cut real hard then try to flatten the board at the top of the wake. I'd lose my angle and just kind of jump. I learned that you should be cutting the hardest at the top of the wake, kind of like on a slalom ski. However, your knees are not shock absorbers like they are on a slalom through the wake, knees should be stiff or even standing up at the wake. Try using half effort as you initiate your turn but build it into a sharper and sharper turn and try to have the board almost straight sideways as you leave the wake. commit.

I always load up and begin pushing off near the bottom and 'jump' off the wake. Are you saying to just ramp off the wake organically? It makes sense, because when I begin pushing I'm sure I come off edge???

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Originally Posted by Boatdrinks797

I've been messing around with some similar problems. Lately, it seems that the handle is getting pulled from my hand when landing. I've come to the conclusion that it's not being pulled out, I'm just to far forward on landing and it would pull me over for a faceplant and I've been letting go and coasting to a stop. My board tip still seems to be popping up and I'm consciously working on putting more weight on the front when coming in. I'm still working on keeping the handle tucked closer in to my body, but it's not comfortable for me at this point and I seem to carry in less speed than with arms extended. When I first got the boat, I filled them to 50% and it scarred the hell outta me when I exploded off it and was bobbing around dazed for a few minutes. I can't even wrap my head around filling them all the way.

Lately, I've been running my GIII bags around 25% full and it still seems to 'rampy' for me at this time. It's becoming counter productive because now I'm becoming afraid of pending falls when landing in the flats. I think I might try your advice and just load up the bow and keep the back empty and see what happens this weekend.

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I have the same boat as you. I noticed right away that the wake was odd (compared to what I was used to). I added 200# of lead blankets in the bow. I ride with the 200# up front, plus the center tank full.

Even with no rear ballast, the wake will easily allow going into the flats. I keep the wakeplate almost all the way down. (nose down).

If you have access to something that is around 200# you can put in the bow just to try it, I strongly recommend it.