Upcoming upgrades - ballast questions

We just got a 2007 LSV, so now I have to think about it all winter. To entertain myself, I'm starting to plan some modifications. I got some great ideas from this forum. I think that the top of the list will be a swivel seat, some ballast upgrades and a wind screen for the walk through.

It came with the GIII system. My end goal is to have large locker bags, IBS and plumbed with 3 dedicated reversible pumps. I have a couple of questions:
1. Can I "ease" into this system, financially? I'd like to get the larger bags first. Can I live with the stock pump set up with longer fill times (20 minutes?) while I save some money for the pumps?
2. It's not clear to me what size bags fit in the lockers. From what I've read, I think that 1100# bags fit (with bracing) but I've also read a lot of 750# set ups. Is 750# the limit for the earlier LSVs (2005 and earlier)?

Are there any other must-have modification projects that should be on my short-list?

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Originally Posted by gregski

1. Can I "ease" into this system, financially?

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Not without relentless ridicule from the rest of us.

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Originally Posted by wolfeman131

Not without relentless ridicule from the rest of us.

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agreed. go whole hog or sit on the porch.

The poor guy asks a couple of simple questions in one of his first posts and that's the welcome he gets?? Let the ridicule begin.... :)

I have the smaller OBV, but you should be fine with the stock pumps until ready to upgrade and I believe the 1100# sacs should fit in your LSV just fine.

If you upgrade to the bigger bags in the back, you will find that you need an IBS to compensate for the weight. I've got the same boat and it loves weight in the bow. When we fill the 750's in the back for wakeboarding, we put an additional 800 in the bow on top of the IBS. So that's another bag you will need to fill soon enough, and you can't run all four on one pump in my opinion - it would take too long. You could save a little money and go with aerator pumps over the reversibles. That is what I currently have and they have treated me well (although reversibles would be nice). The timing really depends on you and how you most enjoy your time on the boat. Time to sit/fill or on the go?

The 1100's will fit in the 07 LSV with bracing as you said. If you plan to do a lot of surfing, definitely go with the 1100's. The 750's I have put out a good surf wave for our use but we spend most of our time and effort progressing on wakeboarding. As I mentioned earlier with the 750's and some weight up front, we get a great wake for boarding.

If it didn't come with Perfect Pass, that would be mod #1 in my book. The ACME 1433 or similar prop upgrade would be #2 with the added weight.

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Originally Posted by mikenehrkorn

The poor guy asks a couple of simple questions in one of his first posts and that's the welcome he gets?? Let the ridicule begin.... :)

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It's OK, I fully expected it. The "ease into it financially" was a bit tongue in cheek. I wish I could break out another hundred, but alas it's another thousand.

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Originally Posted by JGP54321

If you plan to do a lot of surfing, definitely go with the 1100's.

If it didn't come with Perfect Pass, that would be mod #1 in my book. The ACME 1433 or similar prop upgrade would be #2 with the added weight.

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My wife is 100% surf, so that's my motivation to go 1100#. I'm probably 70/30 wakeboarding/surfing so I'll likely want a little less ballast for boarding but we'll see :) I'm basically giving up the slalom. I know people say the Mobius is a good cross-over, but I've never enjoyed skiing behind one - but of course I'm coming from a competition ski style boat with a sweet (none) wake at 30 mph.

It had already been upgraded to PP Star Gazer, which would have been #1 otherwise. My old boat doesn't have PP and I was tired of jerky pulls while every new driver learned. I forgot about the prop. I don't know what is on there so I'll need to look.

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Originally Posted by moombadaze

agreed. go whole hog or sit on the porch.

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Looks to me like he's going bacon and hamhocks to start. guessing the rest of the whole hog will come after the sale of the ski boat and we all peer-pressure him into a new gigawatt soundsystem, led's, 18" shoes, tow cover, etc......

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Originally Posted by JGP54321

Time to sit/fill or on the go?

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When we launch, we easily have 15+ minutes while the truck is parking, driver returns to the dock and we idle out of the no-wake and then the no-ski zones. The inconvenience would be when switching set-ups but I think we could tolerate a bit of waiting for the first season. But is ~20 minutes even in the ball park to fill say 600# in the rear lockers, the center and an IBS with the stock pump? Or am I talking about 40?

You don't want to fill with just one pump. I suggest you drill a new 1" thru-hull to supply your surf side bag and get a Tsunami pump like this one dedicated to the surf bag. You can keep everything else stock for now. (You can keep the pump or sell it later but you need the extra inlet for your eventual reversible pump on that side anyway.) You can also consider a T fitting and putting two of these on there.

http://www.walmart.com/ip/Attwood-T1...2-VDC/14150754

I had the old sprinkler valve setup with 3 fill valves running off a single thru hull/pump on my old supra. it would take around 15 minutes to fill one of the 1100 sacs in the rear locker and the 400 sac in the belly. no other mods to the setup than the bag. had plans to do some of the mods you will find on here, but really never found the need nor the time to do them. gave time to swim, crack a beer or just shoot the breeze. I can't speak to switchover as that boat never saw a goofy wave in the 5years I owned it. around the same time for the single rule pump to drain the 1100bag as well.

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Originally Posted by sandm

I had the old sprinkler valve setup with 3 fill valves running off a single thru hull/pump on my old supra. it would take around 15 minutes to fill one of the 1100 sacs in the rear locker and the 400 sac in the belly. no other mods to the setup than the bag. had plans to do some of the mods you will find on here, but really never found the need nor the time to do them. gave time to swim, crack a beer or just shoot the breeze. I can't speak to switchover as that boat never saw a goofy wave in the 5years I owned it. around the same time for the single rule pump to drain the 1100bag as well.

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My '02 Moomba has the same setup, one fill pump with three dump pumps all aerators.

Definitely not as fast as my newer setup with five reversibles, but on the Moomba, I just added the bigger bags and as Sandm said, gives more time to let the stereo run and maybe enjoy a cold one ("ONE?!" I just heard my wife scream...)

With the five reversibles, I had to also add a new under dash dc distribution panel with a new main circuit breaker (80A?). Works real nice, but I did dump some money into it and ruined a nice weekend before I installed it. Popped a fuse (well hidden) and didn't have pumps or stereo as the WS 420 was ran off the same block.

Perfect pass is a must!

You can buy the larger bags (1100), an IBS, a few extra bags to move around and use several tsunami pumps to fill them quicker. I did this my first year until I installed a complete reversible system.

You can find used 750s around..

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Originally Posted by parrothd

Perfect pass is a must!

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I agree, PP is a "MUST"

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Are there any other must-have modification projects that should be on my short-list?

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There are many stupid long lists on this forum (the lists aren't stupid, the length of the list is). Start with a full blown stereo system...Hours of fun listening to how Exile, Wetsounds, Kicker or (fill in the blank) is better.

Don't forget you will NEED LEDs! (preferably RGBs) and don't look at Berg's thread on his new interior, it is awesome!

But most of all, have fun! Spend money in the off-season and check your prop - Get a new (or used) one now if you still have the 537 or whatever came stock. (there's even a 1617 in the classified section here!)

A heater is a must!

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Originally Posted by parrothd

A heater is a must!

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What is a "Heater"?!!

1. Swivel board racks
2. On board charger
3. Second battery
4. Blue Seas ACR (add a battery kit)
5. Houseboat to go with the Wakeboard boat
6. Get that prop!!!! Perfect X-mas present!

Don't forget LEDs
http://youtu.be/YRyXQ_A5ixk


2013 Moomba LSV

We like to help

http://i683.photobucket.com/albums/v...isButthead.gif

definitely go with the 1100 for the rear, you might want to get a portable tsunami pump and use it to help speed everything up.

I was planning on upgrading the the rears on my 13 OBV with 750#. Simple plug and play upgrade there. I was wonder if it would be possible to slide the 400's under the bow seat one on each side forming a V.

I know I won't get them full. It would be cheaper then buying an IBS.

I figure the the rear sac (50x16x16) is only 2" shorter than the IBS arms (52x12x12) and I would lose a little bit under the front seat. But at the end of the day they will both only fill so much no matter how big.

Also, for those that run the IBS how much weight are you getting up there and do u still run the center 400#?

I tried the two 400's in the bow of my obv07 , much happier with the ibs, but the 400's it will work and will pop the front seats.

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Originally Posted by gscharf

I was planning on upgrading the the rears on my 13 OBV with 750#. Simple plug and play upgrade there. I was wonder if it would be possible to slide the 400's under the bow seat one on each side forming a V.

I know I won't get them full. It would be cheaper then buying an IBS.

I figure the the rear sac (50x16x16) is only 2" shorter than the IBS arms (52x12x12) and I would lose a little bit under the front seat. But at the end of the day they will both only fill so much no matter how big.

Also, for those that run the IBS how much weight are you getting up there and do u still run the center 400#?

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First thing is yes you can run the 2 400s under your nose. Filling is the easy part, its draining that's much more difficult.

Filling you can simply run a hose between them but when draining you need a suction source on each bag. You will need to devise a Y to drain on both bags. When i tried to use a pair of 450s in the nose of my Mojo this is the exact problem i ran into. Yes still run the 400 in the ski locker.

As for the OP.

I had a 08 LSV with a huge surf waves on both sides of the boat, very clean lots of power. The LSV on Regular is very easy to make a big clean wave, the goofy how ever is a much different animal.

I ran 1100, in the rear, the factory 400 in the locker and a 650 IBS in the nose on the stock ballast system for 3 years. The largest of the system was only 1 summer.

You will want to fill your ski locker bag right after you launch and it can be left full pretty much all the time. You how ever will not want to run the IBS full unless you are going to wake board and you don't want anyone riding in the bow because it will ride very low with no rear weight.

We did this when people wanted to wake board and i didn't want to fuss with leveling the boat side to side, and trying to get the wave clean. Ski locker and IBS wake plat 100% 23mph and it was a beefy clean wake that only takes about 10 minutes to fill.

When i went to reversible, i only did it on the rear bags, this makes plumbing simple, allows you to remove the restrictive ballast tree and use the main pump as a dedicated ski/IBS pump. I also mounted to the rear plastic panel above the muffler. Lots of room for plumbing and easy to get to if i burned an impeller.

hit me up if you want the thread, or upgrade ideas on the LSV.

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Originally Posted by moombadaze

agreed. go whole hog or sit on the porch.

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I found a good deal on 4 Johnson ballast pumps that were bought new but never installed. I picked those up. I'll be picking up 1100# bags and the IBS in the spring. He wanted to sell all 4 together, so I decided I'd set up a x-link system with the 4th unless there is a compelling argument to do something different with it.

We took the boat out one last time (11/10), I took a wakeboard run and I was totally disappointed with the hole shot. I looked and it's the stock prop, so that will definitely be changing as soon as I find a good deal.

Which now means I'm going whole hog. You guys suck!

Do you ever switch sides? I was going to do an x-link setup but used that pump for my surf side under seat bag.. I rarely switch sides and when I do it only take 7-10 minutes for my 750...

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Originally Posted by parrothd

Do you ever switch sides?

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Yeah, goofy friends. I'm pretty rookie on the surfboard but I try really hard on the wake board to ride both regular and goofy. I imagine that I would like to do the same for surfing, or at least toeside/heelside. We'll see.

Another option is to use the x-link to simultaneously fill the first locker - i.e. run both right and left pumps and the x-link pump to the right which would fill the right side twice as fast. I'd probably end up limited by the fill time of the ski locker/IBS combo.

I did consider plumbing the 4th in as a "utility" pump with a connection to manually connect hoses to for extra sacs around the cabin.

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Originally Posted by gregski

I did consider plumbing the 4th in as a "utility" pump with a connection to manually connect hoses to for extra sacs around the cabin.

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instead of manually having to connect hose's, install the valve from Wakemakers and simply flip the handle to divert. Using the reversible's for anything more than about 1100lbs just takes to long-my experiance. Your off to a good start

Make sure the bags you get have extra ports on the top or you can install your own if doing a cross pump setup.. I spent a lot of wasted time trying to figure out the perfect setup, I only have goofies every once in a while so I use my 4th pump for under the seat, we still use a extra bag and tsunami pump to fill that, may plan was to have a line from the under seat bag to a hose to fill extra bags.. It's in the to do list.. you can't go wrong with any setup..





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Originally Posted by gregski

Another option is to use the x-link to simultaneously fill the first locker - i.e. run both right and left pumps and the x-link pump to the right which would fill the right side twice as fast...

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I run reversibles including one for a cross-link, but when running a bunch of reversibles you really need to look at your electrical system. I put in an additional DC distribution panel with removable fuses and mounted it in an area that is easy to get to. I did this after my first weekend out with my reversibles wired to a factory disto block and blew a fuse that I could not find. The new Blue Seas distribution panel has it's own power supply cables and ground back to the batteries and is on it's own circuit breaker near the batteries. I can now run all five reversibles at the same time.

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Originally Posted by EricU

I put in an additional DC distribution panel with removable fuses and mounted it in an area that is easy to get to.

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Yeah, my plan was to put in a little panel like this: http://www.bluesea.com/products/5025
I'm thinking of putting it in the engine compartment and running cables off the starter solenoid. Then using relays on the pumps so that I only have to run a low current control signal from the switch up front to the solenoids and keep all of the large wires to a minimum.

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Originally Posted by gregski

Yeah, my plan was to put in a little panel like this: http://www.bluesea.com/products/5025

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That is the one that I used, or real close to it. Just make sure it is mounted somewhere you can easily get to and carry extra fuses.

Remember, it wont be in the comfort of your driveway when one of them pops. I haven't had one problem yet running all five pumps at the same time, though I usually only run three at a time max.

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Originally Posted by gregski

Yeah, my plan was to put in a little panel like this: http://www.bluesea.com/products/5025
I'm thinking of putting it in the engine compartment and running cables off the starter solenoid. Then using relays on the pumps so that I only have to run a low current control signal from the switch up front to the solenoids and keep all of the large wires to a minimum.

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it requires 2 relays per pump to revers its polarity. This is too complicated considering that a standard Carling DPDT rocker will do this for you and carry the load. The pump only requires 12ga wire and has a continuous current draw of about 15A. I suggest passing on the relays, locate the pump's fuse block under the helm and feed it with with ample cabling from the battery.

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Originally Posted by MLA

it requires 2 relays per pump to revers its polarity. This is too complicated considering that a standard Carling DPDT rocker will do this for you and carry the load. The pump only requires 12ga wire and has a continuous current draw of about 15A. I suggest passing on the relays, locate the pump's fuse block under the helm and feed it with with ample cabling from the battery.

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I agree 100%, that is what I did. No need for relays (Listen to MLA, he has helped me out on a few wiring single lines)

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Originally Posted by MLA

it requires 2 relays per pump to revers its polarity. This is too complicated

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Yes, 2 per pump but I disagree about it being too complicated, just a little more complicated. You trade off some cheap relays for the heavy/expensive wire. Overall, it's a less expensive solution. The relays are another failure point but they are pretty reliable - In 20 years, I've had one failure in my '84 Jeep and no failures in any other vehicles. I'm making the assumption that the engine will be running while filling so I'd rather take up to 80A right near the alternator instead of running that current on the battery cables.

But... I have an ulterior motive. I'm dreaming up a geek project and would definitely need the relays for a control system.

When you quote only half the statement, it changes the entire context. 2nd, even with the engine running, you will actually be pulling the current through the battery cables, from the battery. As mention, that new fuse block needs to terminate directly to the battery. Therefore, you would not be pulling any additional current through the existing boat battery cables. The only other safe place electrically, to terminate that fuse block, would be on the main B+ starter post. So contrary to your vision, your setup would actually be pulling through the battery cables.

If the batteries are in the port side mid-ship locker, then you are only looking at about 12ft of 4ga cabling to run the B+ and B- to the helm for that fuse block.

Just a different approach, thats all.

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Originally Posted by MLA

When you quote only half the statement, it changes

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Sorry, it wasn't my intention to change the context, just reference my response. (OK, this time I intentionally loped it off)

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Originally Posted by MLA

The only other safe place electrically, to terminate that fuse block, would be on the main B+ starter post.

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Right, this is my initial plan. I wasn't clear when I said "near the alternator" I meant electrically, not just physically. (But to be clear it's the + terminal of the starter relay not the starter.)

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Originally Posted by MLA

even with the engine running, you will actually be pulling the current through the battery cables, from the battery

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Because the alternator isn't generating this much current at idle or based on connecting to the battery posts? I was thinking about this and I don't know any specs for the alternator. Any idea what it's generating at idle? From experience, if you run 3-4 pumps while at idle, does the system voltage drop to 12V such that you know you're getting everything the alternator has and the battery is supplementing the rest?

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Right, this is my initial plan. I wasn't clear when I said "near the alternator" I meant electrically, not just physically. (But to be clear it's the + terminal of the starter relay not the starter.)

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And to be a little more clear, boats often times use a starter relay in addition to the starter mounted solenoid. And when I reference the starter, I include the starter motor and solenoid together since this is a GM style v's an old ford style with a fender mounted solenoid, in which case the starter motor actually has a cable connected to it.

The starter relay is on the starter solenoid side between the key switch and solenoid. That circuit was never intended to carry any other additional loads such as ballast pump. There may be a helm breaker in the engine bay that is fed directly off the starter's main B+ post. in theory, you could terminate to the starter feed side of that breaker, but not the helm side. But, you would have to consider the cable gauge. In many cases, its as little as 10ga, but can be as large as 4ga. So, this would bring us back to going directly to the starter main B+ that is connected directly to the battery B+ with possibly a 2/0 cable.

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Because the alternator isn't generating this much current at idle or based on connecting to the battery posts? I was thinking about this and I don't know any specs for the alternator. Any idea what it's generating at idle? From experience, if you run 3-4 pumps while at idle, does the system voltage drop to 12V such that you know you're getting everything the alternator has and the battery is supplementing the rest?

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Regardless of where in the circuit the load is terminated, the battery is the primary source and the alternator is there to keep up with loads and replenish lost battery voltage. In a practical sense, the higher the potential load, such as 4 pumps pulling 15-20 amps each, the closer you terminate to the battery, the better the entire circuit will be.

The regulators output is based on load, but is also dependent on engine rpm. Even with a stereo pulling 120A, you wouldnt see a 60A alt peak, its just doesnt happen. if your battery drops below 12V with some pumps running for a few minutes, you need to test that battery.

I dont want you to think im downing your use of relays. Its a sound practice and your system in theory, is sound, other then I would suggest terminating directly to the battery. But given thats its going to take 8 relays and somewhere to mount them all, I think its overly complicated, considering a switch with a labeled actuator is readily available.

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Originally Posted by MLA

So, this would bring us back to going directly to the starter main B+ that is connected directly to the battery B+ with possibly a 2/0 cable.

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I think we are really talking about the same thing just in two different places. I am talking about connecting to this same node of the circuit. It is the same as the battery + connection. I just want to connect on the engine side of the battery cable. The alternator and the battery connect together at the starter (relay, solenoid or whatever we call that point). That is the main +12V rail of the system, no fuses or protection, only limited by the supply of the alternator (or battery if not running).

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Originally Posted by MLA

Regardless of where in the circuit the load is terminated, the battery is the primary source and the alternator is there to keep up with loads and replenish lost battery voltage.

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I disagree with you here. When running, the alternator is the primary source of a vehicles electrical system. It operates at ~14V and the battery is actually a load until it charges up and then it is neither a source nor a load in the DC system, it's basically invisible. (It is a capacitor so it will filter higher frequency signals but let's ignore that and say that everything in a vehicle is running DC/steady-state.)

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Originally Posted by MLA

I dont want you to think im downing your use of relays.

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I don't think that at all. I appreciate your ideas perspectives. I came to these forums to bounce my ideas off of people like you.

Below is the single line that MLA helped me with my current boat, didn't use relays and I am not sure what benefit you would get out of adding relays in.

And I am not trying to argue any point, but more of being curious.

http://i699.photobucket.com/albums/v...ps28694e73.jpg

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Originally Posted by EricU

I am not sure what benefit you would get out of adding relays in.

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My main priority for wanting to use relays is to have a way to control the pumps using a micro-controller.

A secondary benefit is to limit the bulk of large gauge cables. Using just the rocker switches, the 5 lines to the pumps need something like 12g wire and this runs from the rocker switches back to the pumps most likely in/near the engine compartment. If you mount the fuse block near the pumps and use relays on those lines, then you only need short bits of the 12g wire to go from fuse to relay to pump and little control wires to go from the rocker switch to those control relays - this could be sprinkler control cable (1 cable with 10 wires).

Your drawing is spot-on. The only difference for me is that I will connect the fuse block to the blue box that represents the starter so that I only run a few feet of the 2 gauge cable. I would definitely rather run 5 pairs of 12 gauge wire from the helm/batteries to the engine than 1 pair of 2 gauge cable that same distance.