Kaiyen has no push

Got our ‘21 Kaiyen and the wave has zero push. Things I’ve tried

Passenger Load: Wife and 7 yr old
Water depth: ~15ft
Surf Side: Port
Things I’ve tried
- Burped bags
- fill all bags until overflow
- Calibrated inclinometer
- All bags 100%, all tried settings all on these ranges center plate 0-25, wake plate 40-90
- Added 400lb fatsac to rear seat, same ranges as above, got pitch to 9 and roll to -1 to -2

Nothing works, I’m an experience surfer on right sized board. Appearance wise the wave looks decent, just doesn’t have any push.

Any ideas? I’m pretty bummed and out of things to try.


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Schlanseay

Got our ‘21 Kaiyen and the wave has zero push. Things I’ve tried

Passenger Load: Wife and 7 yr old
Water depth: ~15ft
Surf Side: Port
Things I’ve tried
- Burped bags
- fill all bags until overflow
- Calibrated inclinometer
- All bags 100%, all tried settings all on these ranges center plate 0-25, wake plate 40-90
- Added 400lb fatsac to rear seat, same ranges as above, got pitch to 9 and roll to -1 to -2

Nothing works, I’m an experience surfer on right sized board. Appearance wise the wave looks decent, just doesn’t have any push.

Any ideas? I’m pretty bummed and out of things to try.


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https://youtu.be/NXx_nCSc3gc

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First off is it 15' or sub 15', the one thing we notice in our Mondo is that as our lake shallows up on the one end and we get into the 15' range it really impacts the wave and the waves push. Not certain this is your issue but it likely is not helping as 15' is on the lower end of water depths for a good wave with these boats from what I have read/experienced. Also when you are saying that the pitch and roll are hitting the target numbers is that with autowake left on as with your crew size and weight autowake would likely be draining the rear bags to try and hit your pitch numbers. Not the same boat I know but I would load that 400lbs in the bow and pick up another 400lbs for the back if you need more weight but that is just based on my Mondo experience but not a crazy difference in the boat sizes and same ballast. We put a 400lb bag on the floor as far up as it will go and then a 155lb on top in the bow and when running light crew like you are we throw another 400lb bag on the floor as far back as we can get it. Not sure if any of that helps but I hope you can get it dialed in.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Chuds

First off is it 15' or sub 15', the one thing we notice in our Mondo is that as our lake shallows up on the one end and we get into the 15' range it really impacts the wave and the waves push. Not certain this is your issue but it likely is not helping as 15' is on the lower end of water depths for a good wave with these boats from what I have read/experienced. Also when you are saying that the pitch and roll are hitting the target numbers is that with autowake left on as with your crew size and weight autowake would likely be draining the rear bags to try and hit your pitch numbers. Not the same boat I know but I would load that 400lbs in the bow and pick up another 400lbs for the back if you need more weight but that is just based on my Mondo experience but not a crazy difference in the boat sizes and same ballast. We put a 400lb bag on the floor as far up as it will go and then a 155lb on top in the bow and when running light crew like you are we throw another 400lb bag on the floor as far back as we can get it. Not sure if any of that helps but I hope you can get it dialed in.

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Thank you, I’ve read about the 15ft as well. We have three other Moombas that all surf the same depths some even shallower, one Max and a couple Makai’s. Figure our Kaiyen should be able to as well. We dont use autowake, we only flip it on to check where numbers are at then flip it off. What was your mondo like out of the box to inform you to weight the bow and rear?


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my gut is with only 2 on the boat(7yo isn't even a cooler of weight) you need more weight. our old 22ft tige had upgraded 1500lbs in the rear and with only 2 of us on the boat, wave would look good but it sucked to ride. we needed 3-4 in the boat and an additional grand in weight to even begin.
know it's not apples to apples but we came so close to purchasing a kaiyen and since it's usually just the 2 of us and 1 other couple, we had a grand in lead we were prepped to use.

pitch/roll are part of the equation but you also need to displace more water and weight is the answer there. bet you run with 8 adults and same bag and it'll be AMAZING.

No replacement for displacement.



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We got a 21 Kaiyen and have had zero issues getting a great wave for surfing. Did drop in 500 lbs of lead in the rear lockers but it worked without the lead as well. Still recommend the lead as you can then get more weight in the back so the front bag will actually fill up while still achieving the pitch. I use autowake and tweak the pitch and roll to maximize the amount of ballast the boat can hold. Usually around 8.5 to 9.5 pitch. -2 roll. Prefer to put the wake plate at 0 but it always moves back to 25 for some reason after picking a rider back up. Using the default settings for surf plates which is 60 or 70. I did have to burp the bags initially. Have checked since and haven't needed to burp again.

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Originally Posted by Cylee

We got a 21 Kaiyen and have had zero issues getting a great wave for surfing. Did drop in 500 lbs of lead in the rear lockers but it worked without the lead as well. Still recommend the lead as you can then get more weight in the back so the front bag will actually fill up while still achieving the pitch. I use autowake and tweak the pitch and roll to maximize the amount of ballast the boat can hold. Usually around 8.5 to 9.5 pitch. -2 roll. Prefer to put the wake plate at 0 but it always moves back to 25 for some reason after picking a rider back up. Using the default settings for surf plates which is 60 or 70. I did have to burp the bags initially. Have checked since and haven't needed to burp again.

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What is your human crew weight typically with that 500# lead?

For reference.

21 Supra SA

Surfs great at 10,200# total weight
Surfs amazing at 10,700# total weight
Surf wave is ridiculous at 11,600# weight

My guess is a Kaiyen will rock a great wave at 10000# total weight
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When I'm surfing (220lbs) just the wife and two kids in the boat. They total about 250. Sometimes we have the dog for 30 more.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Schlanseay

Got our ‘21 Kaiyen and the wave has zero push. Things I’ve tried

Passenger Load: Wife and 7 yr old
Water depth: ~15ft
Surf Side: Port
Things I’ve tried
- Burped bags
- fill all bags until overflow
- Calibrated inclinometer
- All bags 100%, all tried settings all on these ranges center plate 0-25, wake plate 40-90
- Added 400lb fatsac to rear seat, same ranges as above, got pitch to 9 and roll to -1 to -2

Nothing works, I’m an experience surfer on right sized board. Appearance wise the wave looks decent, just doesn’t have any push.

Any ideas? I’m pretty bummed and out of things to try.


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Our lake has a shallow side as well. We used to avoid it as the loss of push was noticable. I read on an earlier post here that someone who surfed on a 15 ft slowed down to 9.9 mph, so I started messing around and settled on 10.2 mph with around 8.5-9 deg. pitch works great.
I use 800# of lead and typically 3-5 peeps on the boat. At lower speed I try to stay no more than -1deg. roll. This is hard to maintain when the boat is loaded with people for some reason, so I just revert to factory settings when the boat is full. For reference total weight we surf is 9500 - to 10k#s.
We have a Mondo, but Kayen isn't that much different. Hope it helps.

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Originally Posted by Cylee

When I'm surfing (220lbs) just the wife and two kids in the boat. They total about 250. Sometimes we have the dog for 30 more.

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You are at roughly 8900# boat weight. If your crew is going to be that light as a norm, you need at least 1000# to start to get a big push and 1500 would be impressive.

start with 1000# of lead and go from there.

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I hear ya. We trailer so I'm not looking to add any more lead. And we don't seem to have the same issues as the initial poster with push. My family surfs fine with just the 500lbs of lead.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Schlanseay

Thank you, I’ve read about the 15ft as well. We have three other Moombas that all surf the same depths some even shallower, one Max and a couple Makai’s. Figure our Kaiyen should be able to as well. We dont use autowake, we only flip it on to check where numbers are at then flip it off. What was your mondo like out of the box to inform you to weight the bow and rear?


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Do you know what the other boats are running for extra weight and as Ralphy notes if they are doing anything different speed wise etc? Just a thought might be worth picking their brains if nothing else to help figure out what they did vs stock. We ride with a light crew typically (spotter and driver max 300lbs if that but I am not asking my wife or mother what they weigh) and yes you can surf it but I think you might be suffering from less than ideal depth and light crew killing your push. Watching the wake 9 video for the mondo we just tried to replicate it as best we could, the 500 plus lbs in the bow (they used 500 but we go more as it is not all the way forward) and the extra 400lbs in the back on the floor to make up for the light crew although we do ride it with a larger crew sometimes because as larry notes more displacement the better. If I were you I would see if you can get your hands on some more weight and or people ballast and see if that helps you out, if possible try it on a deeper lake just to see how much that is impacting you. As sandm and others have noted these boats typically like more weight than stock ballast provides , not to say that you can't surf it stock but it will be harder with less push in less than perfect conditions. We don't do lead just because our launch is shallow and I don't want to have to load lead in and out every time plus we have the single axle trailer.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cylee

I hear ya. We trailer so I'm not looking to add any more lead. And we don't seem to have the same issues as the initial poster with push. My family surfs fine with just the 500lbs of lead.

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I mixed up OP and your set up.

Regardless, Kaiyen will benefit from more weight.


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Sounds Like I need some lead or ballast bags for more weight and increasing my roll from -1 ish to at least -2


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cylee

We got a 21 Kaiyen and have had zero issues getting a great wave for surfing. Did drop in 500 lbs of lead in the rear lockers but it worked without the lead as well. Still recommend the lead as you can then get more weight in the back so the front bag will actually fill up while still achieving the pitch. I use autowake and tweak the pitch and roll to maximize the amount of ballast the boat can hold. Usually around 8.5 to 9.5 pitch. -2 roll. Prefer to put the wake plate at 0 but it always moves back to 25 for some reason after picking a rider back up. Using the default settings for surf plates which is 60 or 70. I did have to burp the bags initially. Have checked since and haven't needed to burp again.

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This is helpful thank you, I may not be getting enough roll, we were around -1 to -1.5. Some Kaiyen owners say they like it around -3 to -4 even


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With our Kaiyen, we've noticed that if you try to tune for amplitude you actually get less push than setting up a nice long wave. When I surf, it's just my wife and two young kids in the boat for a generous combined weight of 200 lbs after a few breakfast tacos. We have 700 lbs of lead in the boat evenly spread throughout... so we're at ~9k combined weight all in.

We've ditched autowake and the regular footed surf setup I've been using lately is:

11mph
0% wakeplate
45% starboard surf plate (Flow 3)
100% Front / 100% Port / 90% Starboard

Sorry for the crappy video screenshot, but it's a pretty fun wave with good push:

https://i.imgur.com/41hT5aA.jpg

If wife turns to the right slightly while surfing, the wave stacks! So I'm going to try adding a little more roll into the equation if I ever get a chance to fool around a bit more...

The more people I have in the boat, I start adding a bit more surf plate and bumping up the speed.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rhouse181

With our Kaiyen, we've noticed that if you try to tune for amplitude you actually get less push than setting up a nice long wave. When I surf, it's just my wife and two young kids in the boat for a generous combined weight of 200 lbs after a few breakfast tacos. We have 700 lbs of lead in the boat evenly spread throughout... so we're at ~9k combined weight all in.

We've ditched autowake and the regular footed surf setup I've been using lately is:

11mph
0% wakeplate
45% starboard surf plate (Flow 3)
100% Front / 100% Port / 90% Starboard

Sorry for the crappy video screenshot, but it's a pretty fun wave with good push:

https://i.imgur.com/41hT5aA.jpg

If wife turns to the right slightly while surfing, the wave stacks! So I'm going to try adding a little more roll into the equation if I ever get a chance to fool around a bit more...

The more people I have in the boat, I start adding a bit more surf plate and bumping up the speed.

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Looks awesome though!

Suggestion - skip the tacos and get burritos next time!


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Went out again today, had about 600lbs of people all on port side (surf side) and as far back as possible.

Manual settings: front and port rear 100%, starboard was 85%, center plate 0%, surf plate 60%. Check autowake and pitch was 8.5 and roll was -2

Turned on autowake it filled both rear bags to 100% and emptied the front to 40%. It achieved pitch 9.5 and roll to -3.5.

The auto wake I could start to get a slight feel of push but nothing to actually ride still. It seemed like at one point the boat sped up and I could see the start board plate digging in, I usually can’t see any difference when surfing from the plate being down. Does anyone have photos of the back of their Kaiyen surfing so I can see what it looks like on the side the surf plate is deployed on? I am starting to think my surf plates aren’t doing the correct thing.


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Turn off Autowake!! If you don’t have a big crew it’s just going to make it a pain to use Autowake and get a good wave. You can worry with Autowake later on when you have a big crew more consistently or when you’ve added enough extra ballast.

I know the Max is not the same as the Kaiyen but as a general rule it takes about 5k lbs of ballast on a Max before it comes alive to make a big, strong wave with plenty of push. With the Kaiyen being a little smaller I suspect it would take just slightly less ballast to also get a bug, strong wave with plenty of push.

As mentioned, there is no replacement for displacement. You need to add some extra bags and or some lead.

Anyone using the Fatsac extra ballast or wakemakers bags (for Makai) on the Kaiyen? Any fit issues?

How much extra weight does it add?

Attachment 30482

Not a kaiyen, but my mondo has issues with my port side wave as well. My starboard wave is decent and I ride it no rope, but my guys have issues on the port side. I think I need to work with my plate settings a bit to maximize that wave for them. I have 500lbs lead, and the wakemakers rear bags. I want to add a bit more lead to it and see where that gets me.