Raptor 400 vs 575

Hey guys, I am currently shopping for my first wake boat and have decided I am going to order a new Moomba. The issue is IÂ’m trying to decide between a mojo with the raptor 400 and the 1.76 drive or stepping up to the makai with the 575 and 1.5 drive in it. I havenÂ’t been able to find much information on the 2 engine options and how they actually perform in a boat. My concern with the 400 is that I will get it and potentially be underwhelmed. On the other side, I donÂ’t know if stepping up to the makai and the 575 is worth the extra $20k. IÂ’ll be mostly using it for wakeboarding and cruising around. I know that you donÂ’t buy a wakeboard boat for speed, but some of the lakes i plan to go on are pretty large and IÂ’d like to be able to kick it up and get somewhere when i want to. I know a lot has to with the prop, but IÂ’m wondering if anyone has experience with them and what type of performance/speed you can get out of them. When ordering a Moomba currently it looks like there are 3 prop options. If I got the makai IÂ’d plan on going with the prop for higher speed, but I canÂ’t find anything on what performance looks like for wakeboarding or how the different props affect the mojo with the 400. Any information to help my decision would be much appreciated. Just trying to see if the extra $20k is worth it and people thoughts on the extra size of the makai

What size crew are you going to be having on your boat?

I ask because the two reasons to get a 575 outside of “because I can” is weight and altitude. Since altitude isn’t an issue, weight is your only factor.

Seating on the Mojo is 17, and the Makai is 18. Weight difference between the two is 400# dry weight. 10 gal more fuel on the Mojo.

Both boats essentially have the same fit and finish. Again, if weight isn’t the issue, lose the idea of the 575, and save $10k and get the 450 in either boat. I don’t think you’ll be disappointed.

Isnt there a way to tune the 400? There has to be. I can’t see why any Ford tuner cant tune the 400 to a 450 for whatever nominal fee and tuning device you would use in the truck version?


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Originally Posted by j.mo

Isnt there a way to tune the 400? There has to be. I can’t see why any Ford tuner cant tune the 400 to a 450 for whatever nominal fee and tuning device you would use in the truck version?


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ECM is locked and can’t be tuned.


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I'd try to get out in each one if possible.
My SA is significantly heavier than either of those boats and I have no issue with the 400.
The only time I have ever felt it is lacking is with 12+ people, full ballast and 1000lbs of lead trying to get on plane to get back to the dock. It will do it with the surf tabs deployed for launch but it takes longer than I'd prefer.

My opinion is at your elevation of 660' the 400 is plenty in either boat.
The 450 would likely hop on plane a little quicker and save you 10K over the 575.
IMO the 575 is for spending money because you can, or because you're at 6000ft and trying to wakeboard loaded down.

Curious what the take rate is on the 575 Makai


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Once you start to get over 23', I would get the 450 before the 575. Unless you are living in the mountains somewhere.

Not sure I've seen any 575 Makai models. Not even on social media.

I rode the new Mojo 400 with a full crew and lead. It got on plane great for surfing, I do not recall the RMPs. Did not try wake board speeds that day. That was in Knoxville TN. You will not hear many reviews on the new Mojo b/c it was released after boating season was essentially over. People were putting boats away and water was getting cold. Once spring hits, you will hear more. They have been hitting the dealer showrooms now.

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Originally Posted by larry_arizona

Curious what the take rate is on the 575 Makai


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I want to say I read that they sold one last year. Really puts the overall price up into the next echelon of boats.

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Originally Posted by SONIC

I want to say I read that they sold one last year. Really puts the overall price up into the next echelon of boats.

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Exactly, I would be shopping SL versus 575 Makai


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Or the OP could just buy my SL with the 575 and have the best of both worlds.:cool:

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Originally Posted by Prospersigman

Or the OP could just buy my SL with the 575 and have the best of both worlds.:cool:

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Great idea!!!


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I recall years ago a Red/Gray Supra SC with that big azz motor. I think it was in UT. That was a hot rod!

boater4life on here... his '14 mondo has the 409 in it. not sure many were built with that combo. I had to be careful pulling riders up as it would rip your arms out. that boat was a beast and man did it sound amazing......
someday if he ever sells it will be interesting to see what premium that engine brings.

I will say the previous Gen SA has sporty handling for a big boat.

Not the razor sharp handling of a DD ski boat, but still will carve a turn, add in the 575 power and I am sure it’s a fun ride.

I am a speed and horse power junky with cars, but figured out a tow boat is for towing and not drag racing.....lol, in fact fast boat guy on the lake can be annoying.

I suspect a 575 might touch high 40’s maybe 50?


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Originally Posted by larry_arizona

I am a speed and horse power junky with cars, but figured out a tow boat is for towing and not drag racing.....

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Wake boat = Water tractor. Wave plow. Chop dozer. Motor-graders of the inland seas.

Thank you guys for all the input on things. After reading all of this I am definitely leaning towards the mojo. Does anyone have any advice of what kind of deal I can expect to get on one of these. I got a quote today and it looks like there’s a $4k discount, then a $2,600 freight and prep charge, a $500 title, license fee. Then with taxes it’s ending up about $5k over the price on the website when I was building it. I know Moomba doesn’t discount as much as others but I’m curious as to how much I should be able to get things moved.

It's sounds like discounts are not as deep as they used to be. Supply/Demand for both Supra and Moomba and dealers are not having issues selling boats. People are have been lining up for 2021 build slots since last fall.

All dealers will have items like prep charges. Once the boat gets to the dealer, they install batteries, tower speaks, and mirrors. So there is an add-on for that.

For MSRP - 3%-5% off. Options are what drives the costs up.

Dealers only get X number of boats/build slots. So if they do not make a "good" margin on 1 boat, it's not like they can just get more build slots.

Little secret.

Dealer cost on moombas is appx 75% MSRP and Supra is 65% MSRP.




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Originally Posted by larry_arizona

Little secret.

Dealer cost on moombas is appx 75% MSRP and Supra is 65% MSRP.




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And now they are leaving a few screws and bolts off of Larry's build as it goes down the assembly line...

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Originally Posted by Prospersigman

And now they are leaving a few screws and bolts off of Larry's build as it goes down the assembly line...

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I waited until it shipped lol,

That said it’s pretty easy to find on the internet’s lol


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Originally Posted by larry_arizona

I waited until it shipped lol,

That said it’s pretty easy to find on the internet’s lol


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And people piss and moan over 5 cents a gallon every day at my gas station..


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Originally Posted by j.mo

And people piss and moan over 5 cents a gallon every day at my gas station..

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I drive 3 blocks down if it's 2cents cheaper :)

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Originally Posted by sandm

I drive 3 blocks down if it's 2cents cheaper :)

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Oh I know.


But for some reason everyone wants their boat dealer to make a healthy and “fair” profit

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I absolutely expect my dealer to make a fair profit or else they will no longer be a dealer.

Just pointing out how much room there is to help understand how much discount you can negotiate.

Moomba 6-8% is a good target
Supra 18-21% is a good target


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Originally Posted by j.mo

Oh I know.
But for some reason everyone wants their boat dealer to make a healthy and “fair” profit

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I'm all about them making some money but what is defined as "fair"?
cousin and I bought same exact boats 2 months apart in 2020. we didn't find out until a month later and ironically they are almost same spray pattern. came from different dealers over 1500 miles apart. $2500ish difference in options but just short of 18k difference in otd price(w/o tax). one dealer is largest independent single location dealer. other is a pretty decently sized dealer. both sell same lines of wakeboats new. only difference, cheaper dealer sells cycles and sleds. higher priced only sells boats.

"fair" profit to my cousin that paid more?

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Originally Posted by sandm

I'm all about them making some money but what is defined as "fair"?
cousin and I bought same exact boats 2 months apart in 2020. we didn't find out until a month later and ironically they are almost same spray pattern. came from different dealers over 1500 miles apart. $2500ish difference in options but just short of 18k difference in otd price(w/o tax). one dealer is largest independent single location dealer. other is a pretty decently sized dealer. both sell same lines of wakeboats new. only difference, cheaper dealer sells cycles and sleds. higher priced only sells boats.

"fair" profit to my cousin that paid more?

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Ouch!
I'm a big proponent of price fairness and can't stand people gouging. At the same time though if you pay 18k more than someone else for the same thing it's got to be at least partially your fault :D

Fair markups are different in every industry and at every location. It all comes down to how many boats/things they sell a year.
My company competes with others that charge literally 3-5x what we do for the same product. We could get those clients who are rich enough/stupid enough to pay that but I wouldn't be able to sleep at night. I prefer to make more sales at lower margins.
I assume boat dealers are the same way.

Negotiating skills start with knowledge, not everyone has the same knowledge available.

I know what discount I am comfortable with and I have decent googlefoo skills.


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Originally Posted by larry_arizona

Negotiating skills start with knowledge, not everyone has the same knowledge available.

I know what discount I am comfortable with and I have decent googlefoo skills.


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Seedealercost.com has been in my Arsenal for years


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Originally Posted by j.mo

Seedealercost.com has been in my Arsenal for years


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Ding ding ding ding!!!!!


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I've always wondered about that web site. Quite frankly I don't think it's accurate. Anyone know where they are getting their information from? They don't site any sources.

A very quick glance at the 2021 Mojo show EVERYTHING that I compared is marked up 33%. I'd be very surprised if every option has the same markup.

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Originally Posted by UNSTUCK

I've always wondered about that web site. Quite frankly I don't think it's accurate.

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I have wondered the same thing. supra/tige are private companies and I would hazard a guess that they are not sharing that data. it would be easier to ballpark the public company product(bu).

wonder if it's a known industry average for markups and they are taking msrp and applying some formula to all boats based on your findings at 33% markup.

just for fun I looked up our boat. according to that website, dealer made around $5k on our sale. highly doubt that but one never knows.....

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Originally Posted by UNSTUCK

I've always wondered about that web site. Quite frankly I don't think it's accurate. Anyone know where they are getting their information from? They don't site any sources.

A very quick glance at the 2021 Mojo show EVERYTHING that I compared is marked up 33%. I'd be very surprised if every option has the same markup.

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Originally Posted by sandm

I have wondered the same thing. supra/tige are private companies and I would hazard a guess that they are not sharing that data. it would be easier to ballpark the public company product(bu).

wonder if it's a known industry average for markups and they are taking msrp and applying some formula to all boats based on your findings at 33% markup.

just for fun I looked up our boat. according to that website, dealer made around $5k on our sale. highly doubt that but one never knows.....

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Some units have a pictured invoice.
Same goes for RV’s. The markups are massive.
Just wheeled a deal on a Low Rider S Harley for my buddy a couple months ago citing SDC info. They are close, and the info is relevant.


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Originally Posted by j.mo

Some units have a pictured invoice.
Same goes for RV’s. The markups are massive.
Just wheeled a deal on a Low Rider S Harley for my buddy a couple months ago citing SDC info. They are close, and the info is relevant.


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It’s in the ball park and a good reference to use, no way will a boat dealer tell you invoice like a car dealer will.

Boat dealers and territory are different than automobiles.


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Originally Posted by larry_arizona

It’s in the ball park and a good reference to use, no way will a boat dealer tell you invoice like a car dealer will.

Boat dealers and territory are different than automobiles.


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I checked a few of the costs and they are pretty close surprisingly. I looked at power sports stuff and I was shocked it was within in a couple hundred of what it is. Invoice a car dealer shows you is still not actual cost. They get hold back on top of that as well.

I can't speak to current state... when I bought my 1000ninja in wisconsin in '13 the dealer and I spoke about incentives and hold backs. he stated kawi was funding part of the bike as it was an '11 sold new in '13.
dealer in arizona in '19 when I bought my z650 wouldn't say as much but didn't say no. it was a '17 leftover bought with 1 mile in '19.

this was on holdbacks. boats seem to be the only thing I have ever purchased that push "territories" but I haven't ever shopped rv's or travel trailers.

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Originally Posted by sandm

I can't speak to current state... when I bought my 1000ninja in wisconsin in '13 the dealer and I spoke about incentives and hold backs. he stated kawi was funding part of the bike as it was an '11 sold new in '13.
dealer in arizona in '19 when I bought my z650 wouldn't say as much but didn't say no. it was a '17 leftover bought with 1 mile in '19.

this was on holdbacks. boats seem to be the only thing I have ever purchased that push "territories" but I haven't ever shopped rv's or travel trailers.

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Depending on the sales person... they might not know anything about hold back. Most sales people don't. When i started years ago I had no idea.

For those wondering. “Hold back” is money that is “held back” and released from the manufacturer once the unit is sold.
My last truck I bought was invoice minus holdback. Which I gunned for and argued for 4 hours over that $1500. The first $14,000 was a 10 minute affair. The last 1500 was where the fight was. I got $1000 of it though lol.


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What does everyone use on their boats to clean/protect it? Both on the exterior and the interior. Then also the on the gatorstep flooring? I've thought a little about ceramic coating it, but that can get pretty costly. Just curious what people do both on a regular basis when you take the boat out, but also as preventative.

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Originally Posted by Duke-s

What does everyone use on their boats to clean/protect it? Both on the exterior and the interior. Then also the on the gatorstep flooring? I've thought a little about ceramic coating it, but that can get pretty costly. Just curious what people do both on a regular basis when you take the boat out, but also as preventative.

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1) IGL ceramic coat all gelcoat, quick detailer wipe down after coming out of lake. (Not a popular option)

2) dawn and water interior (chill tech only)

3) Hula RAD 5 or RAD10 on gator step (benchmark cleaner for GS)


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