Printable View
I’m in the market for a wake boat and leaning towards Makai. However I’m hearing more and more the 400 engine is too underpowered, it won’t plane, and it’s unreliable. I am between a Mojo and Makai (which I haven’t test drove yet). I’m wondering if I should just focus on Mojo? Thoughts?
Thanks for insight.
Unreliable? These Raptor motors have been used in several boat brands for years and seem to be near bulletproof.
As far as Makai and 400 I think a lot of that will depend on where you live (altitude) and what kind of watersports. Need more info. I know people with the Makai and 400 and they have no issues with power but they live near sea level and use the boat for surfing.
Thanks... we are in VA at 1000ft above sea level. So I don’t think that’s an issue.
Sorry to clarify... I wasn’t hearing issues with the raptor engine but with the Makai electronics and other issues (non engine related).
Ford Raptors have plenty of power and reliability is outstanding and this is coming from a GM guy.
That said prop it correctly and it will pull anything you can throw at it and I run the 400 in a heavier Supra SA.
I think the “electrical” issue you heard about was Moomba and Supra switching to a 240 amp alternator that had a wiring flaw from the factory. It’s an easy fix if your dealer knows what they are doing.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Also a GM guy here and I'm really impressed with the raptor motor. All the problems you hear about are either people complaining because they don't understand that these boats are a small volume product, there's always going to be little things in the first 20-50 hours. It just sucks because some of those little things can leave you dead in the water... Then there's also people who have mechanical inclination so most of their problems are self inflicted.
Sent from my SM-G988U using Tapatalk
I had the same concerns when I went to the SL, given the boat is > 1k heavier than my previous Mojo. I stuck with the 400 given the advise of some forum members, and I have to say, I am glad I saved those 8k$. The 400 pulls my SL weighted with full ballast and crew like a champ. I am yet to find an instance where I was left wanting more power. I live in central Mn. And surf quite a bit at Gull lake, not sure what elevation is. The new gear ratio and the prop adds more torque.
At 1000ft, I'd say stick with the 400 and put that money toward adding every single option you can. Load that puppy up.
Or get the Mojo. I loved that boat. Only problem is no subfloor ballast. I have to say, I really like the subfloor ballast thing. Sooo nice to preserve storage. You don't realize how nice it is until you have it. The SFB would be the only reason I would pick Makai over Mojo. I like the spray pattern of the Mojo better also.
We have 26 hours on our 2020 Makai with no engine problems other than a small transmission fluid leak that the dealer fixed as part of our break-in service.
We opted for the 450 engine. No power issues at all with full ballast (including wakemakers upgraded bags and 1000# of lead), 4 adults and four kids in the boat, at both sea level and at 5000'.
And, yes, the extra storage, subfloor ballast and walk through transom are all great features of the Makai.
Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk
Wise choice on the 450 at 5000 feetQuote:
Originally Posted by jsb
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Thanks everyone… Glad to know that Makai isn’t having all the problems as it was stated to me.
I have a Makai with 70 hrs on the clock this boating season. I did have 1 issue that I had to get resolved at the dealer, but after owning several boats, I’m going to tell you it is not like owning a new car, there are going to be things that have to get taken care of.
I too have the 400 and couldn’t be happier. The 450 would be an unnecessary expense in my opinion.
We have a 2020 Makai with the 400 and haven't had any issues with power at 580 ft. Seems to be a great boat IMO. Just note the 2020s have a different geared Vdrive than the earlier 2019 models. Either works just make sure you have the right prop.
My lake’s elevation is 1,127.
Would the standard 400hp work ok?
Yes, I would say 2500-3000 feet is where it starts to become a minor concern if you were trying to wakeboard full ballast at 22mphQuote:
Originally Posted by RB56
Just to clarify, the raptor 400 is 350hp and 404ft lbs of torque.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I hear this discussion about high altitude and engine performance quite often. But it makes me wonder, based on how IC works, really what you need is turbos or superchargers. Naturally aspirated engine performance will decrease significantly as O2 concentration thins out in higher elevation and barometric pressure drops. So, I would assume you get a little more performance out of the 440, but as far as I know, it is still naturally aspirated, it may have larger air intakes and filters but, the displacement is the same and unless you push air under pressure with a turbo or supercharger, the engine is still starving for O2 and the benefit of the 450 will not be anywhere near as good at the same elevation. You really want the forced air of the turbo with the 550.
Isaguel.... I have been in a mojo but not a
Makai. Since you have owned boat I’m curios your thoughts
On roominess for passengers between the 2
Models? Does the Makai provide that much more room than
A mojo?
Thanks!
The makai is 1.5 ft longer and also deeper to account for the subfloor ballast. I have been in a Makai and I have to admit, it is substantially roomier inside. Thankfully SC chooses not to waste space in those less than useful transom seats we see in other boats like MC and Nauti's. Therefore, that extra length directly translates into quite more noticeable room in the seating area. The bow seems also larger. That being said, you're also talking about a boat that's 800lbs heavier. Think about towing or fitting lengthwise in garage. The difference maker really is the subfloor ballast. The Mojo will need more ballast, the extra bags will take up your storage. When you have a couple of families and all their stuff, the extra storage under the seats is essential.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tgardner917
One way to ameliorate this shortcoming on the Mojo is to get the 1100 lb WM bags and then add 800lb of lead evenly throughout the boat. It'll get you the minimum 4k lbs ballast that the Mojo needs and save some storage. Just remember to reinforce the engine compartment divider walls. If you live on a lake and don't have to tow, the Makai has the advantage.
I think both boats are great. The short answer to your question is, yes, the Makai has substantially more room and the SBF is awesome. But the Mojo has plenty of room, well designed and roomy for a 23 ft boat, but you'll need to opt for the Pro tower in order to fit in an 8ft garage.
probably a good topic for the indmar engineers :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Isaguel
forced induction, specifically turbos make more power at lower elevations and it holds true at higher but they experience a loss of power as well. the air in denver is much different than the air in san diego. the turbo crams the same psi of air into the engine regardless of altitude(wastegate holds psi) but due to less oxygen the engine is still working harder and producing more heat which reduces power. superchargers spin at a constant speed unlike a turbo so 10psi of boost at sea level will likely not be 10psi of boost in denver. now a 10% reduction in power off a 400 is a lot different than a 10% loss off the 550 so supercharger would still be a good bet at higher elevations but still not ideal I believe.
on the 400 vs 440, It's my understanding that they are identical in all aspects and the extra oomph is all in software tune. no difference in actual engine components. I could be wrong on this and indmar seems to keep it a secret on what they are doing. it would suggest above that the 400 is very conservatively tuned and the 440 likely has a little more fuel and some timing changed to get the extra output but I remember reading somewhere that the extra hp/tq is all on the mid-top end so out of the hole the engines are almost identical.
they don't publish the dyno charts that I have ever seen and likely for good reason. there's a 460 version that it looks is tuned for higher octane and closer to the edge. this would be the "upgrade" to get as I bet the curve has a larger bump in low end grunt than the 440.
a lot of people get hung up on engine specs and if you go back 12-14 years ago mastercraft was loading the snot out of the xstar hull with engines putting out less hp/tq than the raptor motors. props- and now tranny/vdrives really make a bigger difference than the few ftlbs you are going to get from the 440 upgrade.
again all imo......
I get what u say. I take back the comment of the 550 having a turbo. I knew it was superchgr, just a slip in thought stream.
But, what I mean is, at any elevation, all other things being equal, with forced induction you're always going to retain more power at higher elevations. If you cram in more air, you will have more oxygen available to burn more fuel and generate more power. A forced induction enhanced engine should theoretically retain more efficiency as the elevation increases than a naturally aspirated one. I just don't think you get the bang for the buck in the 440 that you would if you could somehow bolt a turbo onto that thing. I'm not saying you don't get any extra power. I'm not mechanically savvy, I'm just questioning how much benefit you would gain for 8k$. Do you gain just as much "torque equivalent" if you would just switch to a lower pitch prop and sacrifice some speed rather than spend 8k$ for a marginal benefit? I dunno. I wish someone would run the numbers. It would be an interesting project. Not sure how you Dyno a boat, but I'm sure there are ways.
BTW, on that subject. Why hasn't anyone ever commented on easy ways to get more air in that doesn't cost a fortune. A high flow air filter and larger air intake e.g. Should not have to mess with ECU and it's a bolt on mod. Should not void warranty, and if you ever need warranty work and you're concerned, just remove it and bolt on the old one. It's just a car engine. It's one way to get more air in without spending 8k. I'm sure someone here is knowledgeable and can provide some info. I'm just curious. I have no idea how feasible this is. Room in engine compartment a problem?
A 460 at 5000 feet elevation will lose 61.5hp or make 348.5 hp. So it would perform the same as a 400 (350hp)does at sea level.
A 580 at 5000 feet loses 76 hp and makes 433 hp.
Elevation is a killer, but that is the purpose of the 460 and 580 options for high elevation regions.
Do you need more than a 400 at low elevations? Nope. But at $8000 and $21000 option, if money is not a problem why not lol.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
The $8,000 they charge for nothing more than software has had me thinking. It’s highway robbery frankly. Do you suppose they expect reliability to go down...aka warranty claims up? I get it - if the charge was $1,000 or less, I would bet every boat would have the 450.
Our Makai has the 400, were at low altitude and I have never had an inkling for wanting more...
The 450 offered in SC boats is actually the 460 with a smaller diameter exhaust. To my understanding it is more than just different "tuning" when comparing to the 400. If I remember correctly it has different heads, cams and a couple other parts. I will look for the info I had on it as I did a fair amount of research before I opted for the 450. I know in 2019 when we ordered our Makai one of the big draws for the 450 was that it was already mated with the 1.76 Transmission. I haven't ridden in a 2020 with the 400 and the 1.76 yet so I can't compare but I know that was a solid move by SC.
440 was the tune only delta 23 ft lbs over the 400 for $7400.
The 450/460 does have different hard parts and 91/93 octane tune. Not sure hp/tq numbers on the 450 with smaller exhaust.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
When did they stop offering the 440? I know when I started to look at the SC brand which was MY 2019 they only had the 400, 450, and 575.Quote:
Originally Posted by larry_arizona
I know on the 450 the torque is 450 lb-ft. On the HP I don't remember the exact # but I know it is ≥ 400 HP.
On Moomba's site they say the 450 is +46 lb-ft and +60 HP over the 400 which would put the 450 at 450 lb-ft and 410 HP.
2018 was last year for 440Quote:
Originally Posted by TXSurf4
If SC says +46 ftlbs and + 60hp that makes the 450 450 ftlbs and 410hp, so it’s only 2 ftlbs less than the 460 which is 452/410
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I have owned 3 SC boats...2016 Moomba Mojo with 400, a 2017 Supra SA with 400 and a 2018 Supra SL with the 575. All of my boats have had an additional 850lbs of lead in them and we usually run a crew of 2 families for a total of 8 people (4 adults/4 kids ages 8-13). This debate has gone on over the years on this forum time and time again. The people with the 400 typically say they have never needed more power...I disagree. With both my 2016 Mojo and 2017 SA that had the 400 in it I had to flip it to wakeboard advanced mode to drop all 3 plates down to get on plane and move people to the bow or it would take forever. The other option was to drain half the ballast out to get on plane.
My good buddy bought a 2019 SL450 (early model that does not have the 1.76:1 tranny). It still has similar issues that the 400 had getting on plane but is noticeably better than the 400 was in my other 2 boats. We are in the DFW area so obviously elevation is not an issue for us.
My 575 is unbelievable...never an issue getting on plane not matter how many people in the boat with 3500lbs of ballast and 850llbs of lead. I would love to go 575 again but with the 1.76 tranny and the ability to run a 16x17 prop I wouldn't pay the upcharge again. Even though the whine of that blower on the 575 is worth the price!!!
If you go Makai with the 5200lb dry weight, 4000lbs of ballast and from what I read there is a definite need for lead or additional ballast (lets say 800lbs of lead), along with 370lbs in fuel, then gear and people you are looking at roughly 11,000 pounds I would say the 450 is a must...I am sure there will be people that disagree.
That is why is said "On Moomba's site they say" lol that does seem awfully close. So i reached back out to Indmar and the 450 is 400 HP and 447 lb-ft of torque.Quote:
Originally Posted by larry_arizona
Thanks for finding that data.Quote:
Originally Posted by TXSurf4
400= 350hp/404tq 89
440= 398hp/427tq 89 $7000 option 2018
450= 400hp/447tq 93 $8500 option
460= 410hp/452tq 93 NA
550= 510hp/580tq 93 $21000 option
Moomba option prices slightly lower.
On the 450,460 and 550, you can run 91 with some loss of performance.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
When I was building my boat I heard all the same things about the 400 (it had the 1.5 Transmission at the time). I did stumble across one member on here (some people will know who I am talking about) that had a 2019 Makai with the 450 at the time that he had "slammed" for surfing. By "slammed" on a Makai I am talking about 1,700 lbs of lead and the Wakemakers 1345s in place of the factory 1k rear bags (4 adults). He told me that in his older SE he had the 440 (1.5 Transmission) and had it set up the same way and that it was maxed out surfing like that and would sometimes struggle holding speed in rougher water. He said on his Makai the 450 didn't mind the weight at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Prospersigman
All that being said when I opted for the 450 (MY 2019) it was the only motor in SC's lineup with the 1.76 Transmission and I made that decision as much for the transmission gearing if not more than the extra power. Also the clearance to run a larger prop was another added bonus with the 1.76 transmission. I run 1K in lead and just upgraded to the Wakemaker's 1345s in the rear and this boat/motor doesn't bat an eye at the weight. I haven't ridden in any 2020s with the 400 so I can't speak as to how it compares to the 450 what I can say is that I have never regretted getting the bigger motor!
I was talking to a dealer today and they verified that if you are 3000ft ASL that you'll want to go with the 450 or 575. Most of my boating occurs between 4500 and 6500 ASL, so I was already ruling out any 400 Makai or Supra, and preparing for the upgrade. I usually don't have large crew, but when I do, or when the Sierra zephyrs start, you need that power when plowing. They said the 450 should meet my needs, and that the 575 upgrade wouldn't be realized unless I had the boat filled with brew and crew.
When my wife makes me move to the lowlands below the snow line, I'll have all the power I need with the 450.
Great thread. Lots of great info on engine performance and effect of altitude on power. I'm glad I brought up the age old topic about altitude, turbos and SC's.
Now, question #2:
I have a lawnmower, a Toro, B&S engine, that just keeps sputtering, and .......
you should dump the Toro and get a Honda.Quote:
Originally Posted by Isaguel
My input on the engine stuff. We have a 19 Mondo with the 400. It is small than you all are talking about. most of our use is at 5600'. surfing we have about 4800# plus people. current prop is what ever the upgrade prop is. (next step is to upgrade this) surfing is fine and about 3400 rpm. pulls up fine. it will really struggle to get over 15-18 mph when loaded, if it does get there.
wakeboarding we drop ballast down, we are not superstars. although we have had some with us and the wake is fine for them.
when we go to Lake Powell at 3600' there is a huge difference in the pull, with everything else the same.
for the $ upgrade, i do not think i would take it.
How do you find the 400 with the 1.76 Transmission to be in your new SL? what is your ballast setup and crew size? What prop are you running?Quote:
Originally Posted by Isaguel
I have not felt it lacking in power. I boat at a local lake at 1100ft elev and at gull lake mostly at <1200ft. I do not use AW. Fill everything 100% and port side tab at 85%. WP depends on rider, I'm 185 and have WP at 25-30%, might bring it down to 50% for my 12 y/o son. Speed 12 mph. I do have 200lbs only of lead in the back lockers. Crew, usually 7-8, mix of adults, teens and pre-teens. I initially had planned to get 600# of bags, my dealer only had 4 bags in stock and was going to order more. The wave has so much push and length I decided I didn't need it. My setup is not soo impressive, pretty stock, but works and the boat has no problems pulling a surfer or 5 tubers. I have the standard 16x17 prop. I thought I'd upgrade to the 15pitch, but haven't felt I needed it, I will get it as a second spare. It cruises at 41 mph. So, I can have my cake and eat it too. I will eventually get some more lead, just for the heck of it. Wave can always be longer, and maybe then I'll feel the need for upgraded propQuote:
Originally Posted by TXSurf4