Craz vs MB Tomcat F22

Looked at a beautiful craz this week. Almost 70k! Seen a f22 tomcat on lake last year and it was huge and talk of the 40 boats on the sand bar. I went for a ride this morning, froze by butt off, but off, but a monster surf curl with 400 lbs of ballast we ran and an awesome rolled over wake for wakeboarding like the malibu is known for.

Haven't seen a craze wake but heard they are great wakesurf but so so on wakeboard wake.

Has anyone seen them first hand and rode them?

Same raptor power and they are willing to be super aggressive on price where they can grab market share and say they won't be under sold to have the opportunity to get on lakes they are not.

Any feedback appreciated

What happens in a few years if they leave the market? This would be one of my concerns. Other than that haven't heard good or bad about them. Market is getting tight I would make a deal soon. Showed my Mondo this afternoon and now have a deposit pending bank approval. Sale price withing $1 of my asking price.

Out of the box the Tomcat will be better surf wise. The craz needs some weight, minimum 1100s in rear. A few on this forum even get the Enzo sack and it fits.

Tomcat just needs to be dialed in. It comes stock with 2800lbs + you can get PnP 1100s factory.

Both will surf great, both look great & both priced reasonably well for the 22' market.

Test drive both but make sure you bring extra weight for the craz cause I guarantee you won't like it stock.

Then it comes down to what you like more, traditional bow or pickle fork with a monster play pen area. Both run the same motor & both have great fit & finish. MB will give you more custom options when it comes to gel & vinyl. Craz will be a little less money. Either way both are great boats.


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You have motor and glass weight almost the same..same as helix through mojo. It is all hype and what your willing to get raked over the coals for. Besides tower change and reverse seat the mondo is the same and within 2k of craz but want me to pay 11k more in 2 years! LMAO.

Not a boat that is starting at 20 ft that doesn't need min of 3300 lbs to have good surf wake. It is all fluid dynamics and volume. I would be expecting to custom the craz or tomcat to 4500 lbs and pic up the most aggressive prop to push it. Love seeing everyone ride their bows high saying they don't want a long wake but want height. Sack it sick and bury the bow and any 22 ft boat should be 4500 lbs if you have only 3 or 4 buds in boat so you get height and length. We didn't drop over 50k to compromise. Just prop it correctly to take care of your engine

Leaning towards the tomcat. Size and look on water blew away anything on the lake. They even fixed the ugly tower that looked like Jesse ventura wearing metal suit in running man.

Talked to guys in Michigan and they said a tomcat dealer is in the works for central wisconsin so game on!

I wonder if the MB guys like the Moomba on their forum lol

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Originally Posted by northern mondo owner

You have motor and glass weight almost the same..same as helix through mojo. It is all hype and what your willing to get raked over the coals for. Besides tower change and reverse seat the mondo is the same and within 2k of craz but want me to pay 11k more in 2 years! LMAO.

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You want them to sell a new boat for less than you paid 2 years ago? Personally, I'm happy to see the value of the Moomba increasing.

You did not read my cost comparison between models and increase in price.

I'm not an MB owner. At this time I'm a none owner.

You like price going up why? Unless your a dealer.

What if they sold a supra for 10 dollars. Would you sell your boat cause it's lost value?
Noone buys boats for investment. It is pure money for joy value.

Not much different than the guys who say they wrote out a check for 100k for a boat.
If you wrote 100k check out instead of investing and having those returns pay for the boat and still have the 100k well I don't see the logic.

Read what I sent on model price comparison and then new price

Just asking for a wake comparison and feedback. If the response came feom an MB user where are the craze pics of how it looks. Noone denied the response as well.

We all nonledtover model mojo go for 63 to 65 . We all know they still aren't taking a loss on a factory build of 40s.

Not blaming someone for making a buck either. That is good ol capitalism.

At a certain point you have more options and was looking for the comparison and pics to keep me as a moomba owner. Did that mojo you buy run you 63? New left over is...youn lost value and not gained. It's just if it's your color or look. But left over 63 to 65 not used. Tell me you paid less and have no hours on and I'll agree you paid less that a new left over.

Let's be blunt...besides minor cost savings changes....the year says 16 and not 17 on most boata..bikes..cars...trucks

"but want me to pay 11k more in 2 years" .... I read as you have/had a 2015 mondo and the 2017 craz is 11k more than you paid for the 2015 Mondo 2 years ago. The price jump in Moomba between models is approximately 2-3k for each model size increase.

So minimum 2k makes up for the difference between Mondo and Craz. The other 9k increase is due to Moomba increasing pricing each year. No?

I didn't say I bought my boat as investment ... I didn't say I wrote a check for my boat ...

I do, however, prefer to lose as little as possible when it comes time to sell. If Moomba's prices went down I wouldn't have a chance of getting anywhere near what I paid. With them going up in price, I stand to lose less money when it comes time for resell. As prices increase on the new models, the prices for used boats creep up also.

Ex: the past 5 years of the boat market have seen a drastic increase in new boat prices. I bought a used Supra in 2010. I put 450 hours on it and sold it in 2016. I sold it for more than I paid for it 6 years prior. No, I didn't buy it as an investment. I bought it for joy. But it did make me happy that I didn't lose money on it. I understand that won't happen again but I do like minimizing depreciation.

I'm not a dealer and no I wouldn't sell my boat because it lost value.

"If you wrote 100k check out instead of investing and having those returns pay for the boat and still have the 100k well I don't see the logic." .... while I understand the premise of where you are heading .... it doesn't seem realistic.

Ex: Borrowing 100k is going to cost you 4.5% annually in interest. If you can earn more than 4.5% on your money, sure it makes since to investment elsewhere because interest income > interest expense, so you come out slightly ahead and maintain the flexibility of having cash on hand.

However, to maintain your 100k principle ("those returns pay for the boat and still have the 100k well I don't see the logic"), you will need to create income of 1,000 per month (assuming a 10 year loan at 4.5%) from your 100k principle. That means a return on your 100k of 12% year after year for 10 years.

If you can point me to where I can conservatively earn 12% on investments while paying the bank 4.5%, I'll read that too.

My originally point, though, was that I would see increasing prices as good, not bad, for resale.

I think resale is one of the things Moomba is likely better than the MB on. Moomba is more widely recognized due to the volume of boats they produce in comparison to MB and have a much larger dealer network.

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Originally Posted by northern mondo owner

At a certain point you have more options and was looking for the comparison and pics to keep me as a moomba owner. Did that mojo you buy run you 63? New left over is...youn lost value and not gained. It's just if it's your color or look. But left over 63 to 65 not used. Tell me you paid less and have no hours on and I'll agree you paid less that a new left over.

Let's be blunt...besides minor cost savings changes....the year says 16 and not 17 on most boata..bikes..cars...trucks

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I'm really not sure what you are saying. Yes, I paid more than 63 for my Mojo but I'd be willing to bet I have way more options than the holdover for 63k. I also got to use my boat for a whole summer (right at 100 hours) before the price was marked down to 63k. Perhaps I could have bought a 2015 leftover but it wouldn't have had the things I wanted.

I know for a fact I have lost value from when I drove off the lot. I'm not doubting that. I was saying I hope to minimize the loss of value and increasing prices does just that.

The year may or may not make a difference depending on make, model, and year .... The difference between manual flow and autoflow was significant which is 14 vs 15. IMO, the difference between autoflow 1 and autoflow 2 was a significant difference which is 15 to 16. Before those years, you had the change from Mojo 2.5 to the current Mojo, which is a different size boat, therefore, significant.

The things that kept me away from MB when looking ....

The lack of dealers
The look
The pillow looking interior
The price point for being a non major brand
Mostly, the look

How do the warranties compare?

Not sure where you heard the craz wakeboard wake is weak for wakeboarding. We only run around 2500lbs for wakeboarding. I usually have to tone it down with the wake plate because the wake is too much for me. I've only got a few inverts and spins in my bag though. Unless you plan on going pro, the craz wake is great. I would definitely put it in a league above "rolled over"

I'm willing to bet DFTR has a few pics of a stock craz wake.

Here is mine.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...e975c00517.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...7e9b5fac2e.jpg

Exponential decay vs linear growth...

I'll stop talking dollars and cents because that is reserved for the office and I'm just here to see a craz wake and surf wake vs what to me is my other option.

I seen the other option perform amd looks. Awesome....I love the craz look..f22 a bit more...but have a great feel of reliability with moomba....so again...why I am asking. If this wasn't done by people market share wouldn't change hands and percentages would remain.

Yes it is getting to be a dealer market. That is why moomba is rising fast but head wind in pricing now allows other to be considered.

Again...why I'm looking for the pics and feedback from the users....all emotion and brand loyalty left out. I'm loyal to performance and what I'm getting for said price.

No no not weak! So so based on style of wake. I love a rolled over less lippy wakebaord wake that the bu is known for producing but a 22 footer in that price range opens a whole new can of worms.

That is a conversation best left for the supra forum. It is why that boat is priced that way...better performance fit and finish....is it not?

I love the full ramp in your pic. I guess the question is are you able to still have the same ramp less the lip? I see pros like and hate it...I'm not even close to that level. My boy can ride supper steep and lippy but every video or pic I take he is more predictable and launches higher on a rolled over wake...but identical volume. ...just the lip or peak rolled in.

We ride 70 to 75 feet of length...when 80 at times when pulling at 23mph...the lip rolls at that speed but you need a chiropractor visit when you grab an edge

Would like to ride slow and still have that rolled edge but wake wasn't that wide on my mondo slow and all corp and lip with a rope 65 and longer

Can't say I've tried to get rid of the lip. Sorry, I can't answer that for you. Here are a couple surf wave pics too. Regular wave is 3400lbs with 3 in boat. Goofy is just over 4000lbs with 3 or 4 in boat. Only 12 ft of water though.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...b8e938a528.jpg

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...fced8c1812.jpg

Ok. Wow what 600 lbs does! We all know weight is our friend.

Ever have it in 25 plus depth where it really grows?

I seen the other in our deep bay that is 100 ft.

I know my mondo really came to life with 3600 but I had to be 25 or more.

I can see the amount of volume not even being engaged and man that has to be impressive in deeper water!

The reg pic is is 40 feet of water, it's just a really bad angle. Also, was the second outing in the new boat so we hadn't really figured the wave out yet.

https://youtu.be/kRQy6g6Dh2E

This was 1.0 plates and 2200 lbs with stock prop.

In 2016 we went to 2079 prop..3500 lbs ballest and 2.0 plates

The 2016 setup and surf blew this away!

Thought I was moving and sold and then landed an offer I couldn't refuse out of the blue

We used our toon so little but had to when we had too many going out to sand bar.

Bigger boat...no pontoon..use our jetskis when we want to run back and forth from sand bar to lake house. That is now the plan.

Just the comparison. Wish moomba made a pickle fork 22 with the helix width..raised MB floor..that would be the G21 and 22 mxz and F22 killer.

I'm going to hold out and see if any other pics come in from deep water or more wakebaord wakes.

Really want to see what a helix wake looks like setup correctly. Not that I want a boat that size again...but the engineering and concept is awesome. I think that hull in a little better looking front end at 22 ft would be the ticket. Just can't get over that wake tractor look. Not as bad in water look but on a trailer it just bugs me

Soon!

I paid over $80K for the 17 Mojo Pro. That being said, I looked at the MB TOMCAT and I liked the look and style of the Mojo more. To be honest I also relied on advice from friends that felt the Pro would have a much better resale value, down the road.

I'm relatively new to boating lol.

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Originally Posted by northern mondo owner

Exponential decay vs linear growth...

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Lol. I can agree to leave well enough alone.

On performance. I believe the craz hull is a shortened version of the new mojo hull, which was a Supra hull. There are inherent benefits of being the little brother of the boats that pull the PWT.

The wakeplate is designed to adjust the shape of the wake for a riders personal preference between steep and mellow. In regards to heavy weight, the newest flow system utilizes all 3 plates of the surf system to help get the boat on plane, then returns back to your settings.

A side note, Moomba has 10+ years of consecutive customer satisfaction awards from NMMA. Unless something has changed, i believe MB is one of the few inboards not certified by NMMA.

Pics are a start to a decision. You need to demo both, setup how you plan to use it.

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I don't even see how they are in the same category?

F22 starts at $82k. Maybe they come off a lot more??

Craz is $20k cheaper and looks much better. Sold. I can figure out the wave with weight and settings.

I would but Rance's SA before I bought a tomcat.


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by KG's Supra24

Lol. I can agree to leave well enough alone.

On performance. I believe the craz hull is a shortened version of the new mojo hull, which was a Supra hull. There are inherent benefits of being the little brother of the boats that pull the PWT.

The wakeplate is designed to adjust the shape of the wake for a riders personal preference between steep and mellow. In regards to heavy weight, the newest flow system utilizes all 3 plates of the surf system to help get the boat on plane, then returns back to your settings.

A side note, Moomba has 10+ years of consecutive customer satisfaction awards from NMMA. Unless something has changed, i believe MB is one of the few inboards not certified by NMMA.

Pics are a start to a decision. You need to demo both, setup how you plan to use it.

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That NNMA awards crap is total B.S. though. When a dealer tells you that anything but 100% score is a fail, so make sure you give them 100%, you know the system is flawed. It was like the sky was falling when I gave the service department one bad mark, and it was for good reason. I even made a point of calling to give the service manager a chance to make it right before I did the survey. I know I got the exact same space when I bought a new Ford last month. So I definitely wouldn't make a decision based on that bogus NMMA award.

Love the SA!

Not a bad option...Look for a used Supra...

Cant tell me you aren't sacking a SA to 5k ballest before buds and gals but with boat weight im not sure I would be comfortable with only a 400 in it.

I'm sure it will perform good with less but lets face it, we don't go for more to be content with good!

That would be some serious re-prop!

Looks are opinion..I love how they both look.

Guess I wait to Demo the Craz. Gonna be hard to demo with stock ballest vs. a sunk F22 fialed in.

That would not be fair.

i'll find one in the next month sacked or when I am on business in the south sooner.

Till demo days I guess

Just looked on Supra sight and the pic of the SR wake is awesome! longer ramp, lip doesn't roll over, as you go back you still have the same and wake doesn't even roll over, it just kind of collapses.

That is the money wake!

Now I have to dig for some SR wakesurf with it sacked.

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Originally Posted by mattsask

That NNMA awards crap is total B.S. though. When a dealer tells you that anything but 100% score is a fail, so make sure you give them 100%, you know the system is flawed. It was like the sky was falling when I gave the service department one bad mark, and it was for good reason. I even made a point of calling to give the service manager a chance to make it right before I did the survey. I know I got the exact same space when I bought a new Ford last month. So I definitely wouldn't make a decision based on that bogus NMMA award.

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I can't believe they got upset they didn't get a 100%. It's like they give awards to manufacturer/dealers who get the highest percentage of fully satisfied customers, in an effort to make consumers aware. You went and broke the system when you gave them a deserved bad mark. ;)

I certainly wouldn't buy a boat based on the certification but it is something to put on the table when shopping brands.

Maybe I've been at work too long, maybe it's this thread, but I feel like I'm in a twilight zone.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by northern mondo owner

Just looked on Supra sight and the pic of the SR wake is awesome! longer ramp, lip doesn't roll over, as you go back you still have the same and wake doesn't even roll over, it just kind of collapses.

That is the money wake!

Now I have to dig for some SR wakesurf with it sacked.

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Have you looked at the NXT 22? It has some attributes similar to MB, in a similar price point, with better styling, IMO, and is a brand with long standing history.

Is the Supra SR a sub 100k boat?

No worries. In manufacturing cunsulting. It is similar to ISO cert at many places. People just want to see a cert from the purchasing group or manufacturing group. Can't tell you the most elite shops...I thoufht....that had the cert...had the worst quality control and retention of records. Then I seen other non ISO shops that were perfect.

It means something...but not a deciding factor.

Being a consultant it is normally price. Lower price means you have a better process control and standardization of materials. You then increase profits by being priced under your competition and taking market share away and skilled labor and engineering.

Prices are climbing on the entry level boats...yes that is supply and demand but it also signals flaws and stress in the manufacturing process.

I'm just here to find pics of wakesurf...wakes...

In the end...it's glass weight...motor..sewing machine...and you are allowed to sell something for what again?

That's correct....whatever someone is willing to pay

Search no more!! Not far off from MB price and all your questions, concerns, comparisons are solved.
https://dallas.craigslist.org/dal/boa/6018521081.html


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Just adding my two cents and being that's about all it's worth...

When I bought my Supra SA I was replacing my Moomba LSV, so already in the SC family. I seriously looked at a MB F22 Tomcat. I had an open deal on both sides, a 2015 MB or a 2013 Supra. Although the Supra was older it was still over 6k more than the MB.

There was not water available to lake test as I bought in December, so was purely going on videos, recommendations and people like this on forums. The MB is a very nice boat, they are doing some things other boat builders are not, the hull shape and surf wave looks a lot better out of the box than what I have seen with SC. In 2015 there were some issues that have been addressed with 2017 models. MB is a smaller builder than SC, but they have been around for quite a while, Mike seems very easy going and am assuming a good leader in his company. MB does not sponsor major events like SC does.

SC and Supra, I know the Craz is not a Supra. I ultimately chose the Supra because the fit and finish seemed better, the use of interior space made the SA seem bigger even though both boats were 22. The Supra Vision system as well as switches was a huge selling point. For the wife, the power adjustable and heated drivers seat along with the heater were key points.

Bottom line, the deal I got on the Supra was in my opinion better than the MB. I know I can sell my SA today for more than I paid for it, I am not sure MB will hold value as well?

With all that, my brother is looking to get a wake boat, specifically a surf boat. He is looking at MB, Axis, Supra, Moomba, Malibu etc... he has found a 16 left over Supreme to consider. INHO all things considered, spend time in each and water test them and decide from there.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by northern mondo owner

Love the SA!

Not a bad option...Look for a used Supra...

Cant tell me you aren't sacking a SA to 5k ballest before buds and gals but with boat weight im not sure I would be comfortable with only a 400 in it.

I'm sure it will perform good with less but lets face it, we don't go for more to be content with good!

That would be some serious re-prop!

Looks are opinion..I love how they both look.

Guess I wait to Demo the Craz. Gonna be hard to demo with stock ballest vs. a sunk F22 fialed in.

That would not be fair.

i'll find one in the next month sacked or when I am on business in the south sooner.

Till demo days I guess

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Ive owned an F22 and I now own an SA400. The 400 will push plenty of weight. When weighted properly the wake behind it blows the F22 out of the water (haven't ridden the Moomba) the wake is smooth and rampy. Doesn't have the vertical face and lip like the MB or old Nati. I've ridden the G too and the wake behind this one is so close you would really have to be itching to spend 30K to not go SA