T100 - how thick was the floor where you drilled through? Also, where did you get that deck plate cover? Do you have a link or a part number?Quote:
Originally Posted by T100
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T100 - how thick was the floor where you drilled through? Also, where did you get that deck plate cover? Do you have a link or a part number?Quote:
Originally Posted by T100
Those are marine inspection covers that you can get at most marine supply stores.
T100, was it holllow under the ski locker floor-no foam?
The floor was just over an 1/8 of an inch thick, I bought the marine inspection cover from my local boat shop for $12.00, I can get the number off the box later day, it's in the boat.
The foam was to the top of the ski locker floor, there was maybe an 1/8 of an inch between the two in some places, maybe because of freezing in the previous year I did not own the boat??
I drilled through the ski locker, then two depths of the hole saw (very carefully the second depth), I used a utility knife and cut it like a pie to remove the foam each time. I tried to keep it as clean as possible.
Just as a side note, after taking the majority of the water out, water kept coming from the rear of the boat. The foam is saturated with water and I am not sure it will be completely dry by the time I put her away for the winter. I am going to buy a couple of moisture removers from the boat shop.(Not sure what they are called)
I can tell you now that a have done this I have peace of mind over the winter !
Skiers Choice, come on, there is something obviously not right here. My front hull would have been an ice block as big as the entire foam core and more.
thats a nice clean job. I think this is prob the fix as water may be coming from the back of the boat, bilge into this areaQuote:
Originally Posted by T100
I'd pretty much signed off this forum due to switching seasonal interests, but with a few day break from hockey, thought I'd take a boo.
All thirteen pages of this thread later:
1. We have an issue. I have yet to read that it has caused a problem.
2. Where I live it gets so cold that Celsius meets Farenheit. That ain't no Rodney Dangerfieldizm. Point being that at ambient temperatures lower than thirty below, if this issue was causing freezing damage, you would have heard it on this forum from local folks.
3. When Grant pulled out 8 gallons and was still only sucking the surface, that's what got my attention. Despite the point in one post about there being some give in areas allowing for expansion, with that amount of water I don't think there would be enough expansion room.
3. the absence of any info directly from SC injected into this thread suggests:
A. Yep, it's an issue.
B. Too risky for them to comment; they are staying out of it.
4. I appreciate the handiness of many Forum members. I have a 45 yr old special interest car and I expect this kind of chatter (home made remedies to alleviate mfr design flaws) on THAT forum, but this is a modern day issue on assets we are paying tidy sums for.
Got my interest; will stay tuned. Mine's stowed away for the season, so can't check it.
(Canucklehead...your Canucks must follow this forum. They're at the top of their division now, with the Oilers at the bottom).Quote:
Originally Posted by Canuckle Head
Yeah, that was a pretty good game last night. Go Torres! :DQuote:
(Canucklehead...your Canucks must follow this forum. They're at the top of their division now, with the Oilers at the bottom).
Maybe Skiers Chioce will pull their heads out of their behinds and respond to the issue. Thinking I may sell the boat if this is how they treat loyal customers. :-( I love my Moomba but this is crap.
I think this is the jist of Skier's Choice's position - yes, there is water down there but there has been no damage caused by it so it doesn't fall under their structural warranty. I think the water is expanding to fill the void down there and then it pushes up on the ski locker floor since this is obviously the structure put not enough to cause any visible structural damage.Quote:
Originally Posted by moombabound
Not saying I agree, that's just my interpretation from my selling dealer's response and SC's response thru my local dealer.
Nice work! Just one question - why did you not drill the hole further back in the locker? Seems that would be the low point within the locker so you would want to suck the water from there.Quote:
Originally Posted by T100
I went with that location of the hole because when I looking at the belly of the boat that was the lowest point in the dip of the bow under the boat. As I shop vac-ed the water out, I raised and lowered the bow of the boat to get the flow of the water to move. That is why I noted the water was surprisingly coming from the rear of the boat after the majority of the water was vacuumed out.
DOCDRS I am considering installing a bilge pump, that is way I went with the 6" access hole.
How much water was in the hold?Quote:
Originally Posted by T100
Cheap overstock deck plates here.
While i don't typically see freezing temps where this could cause an expansion issue, i do see another issue that could be as big an issue in the warmer climes. Basically moisture.
This spring i pulled the boat from storage and i had mildew on the sundeck vinyl and along the top of the rear seat. In other words only in areas close to the factory cover.
When i pulled up the cover it was wet under it, in fact it had growth on the underside! Not only did i have to totally clean the vinyl, i had to scour the cover as well. Now i know 100% that there was nothing wet in the boat, the bilge was dry and i had moisture packets in. I also know 100% the boat didn't get wet. I also know 100% that the factory Atwood covers are made from poly/cotton material and don't breath worth a damn. So where did the moisture come from?
I'm willing to make a solid bet it came from the trapped water in the bow. I will know for sure Saturday when i winterize if i have the issue or not but it only makes sense, where else would it have come from.
So for everyone with the issue and in warmer climes you could end up with the very same issue.
mpnracing, did you get a chance to measure the floor thickness where they installed the deck plate?
I vacuumed out at lest 12 L / 2.64 gallons, not to mention what my shammy (ShamWow) sucked up as I was drilling.Quote:
Originally Posted by Canuckle Head
Razzman - I didn't even think to measure it when it was open :( Although they put an extra layer of fiberglass matting over the main part of the locker as you can see in the pics earlier in the thread, so it should be plenty strong.
If it's comming from the rear of the boat then I would guess that it's trapped back there as well. Why isn't it making it's way to the bilge area? I'll tell you why, because it's a DESIGN FLAW.Quote:
Just as a side note, after taking the majority of the water out, water kept coming from the rear of the boat. The foam is saturated with water and I am not sure it will be completely dry by the time I put her away for the winter. I am going to buy a couple of moisture removers from the boat shop.(Not sure what they are called)
Just got off the phone with SC. Their web presence is almost nil right now which is why they haven't noticed/responded to this thread. I was told there they have hired someone that is currently in training that will better represent SC on these forums in the future.
I discussed this issue, as well as this thread in detail. The guidance I was given, and asked to share with all of you, was to go through your dealer. They have several different ways of dealing with this issue, including the deckplate/vacuum method that some of you have already done. They also mentioned drilling weep holes to allow water to somehow reach the bilge (I didn't understand this one) as well as the option of drilling a much smaller hole that doesn't require a deckplate and then using a reducer on your shopvac to reach the water.
So if you haven't already, take it up with your dealer, and report back on how you plan to address the issue. Personally, I like the bilge pump idea. Hmm....
Didn't Cab try that already?
Quote:
Well, I got this e-mail from my dealer this morning who heard back from SC:
"The answer was that it is not a structural issue that would be covered under the limited lifetime warranty of the hull, so it will not be covered under warranty."
What I don't understand is why they agreed to cover mnpracing's boat but not mine, especially when mnp bought his boat used and I bought mine new (no offense mnpracing).
Oh one more thing I forgot to mention. I asked about the potential issues with doing absolutely nothing. From their perspective the worst case scenario is that if it got 100% full of water down there, then froze solid you could potentially end up with some stress cracks in the floor of the ski locker area. This would be cosmetic only and would never impact the structural integrity of the hull in any way.
PS - don't shoot the messenger. :)
Thanks for the update Brainrinse. It would only make sense that with that water in there you have the potential for mold growth as well - which wouldn't be good.
Brain, thanks so much for posting that information from SC. It's unfortunate that this is happening to a large number of the loyal customers on this site. I am sure there are countless other boats out there experiencing this issue that aren't on this forum.
In a perfect world, SC would make good on this as part of a 'recall' or something similar. However, we all know it's not a perfect world. I am really stoked to see the proactive approaches by a lot of you guys on here - personally I'm not ready to drill into the floor of my boat - but I am glad to know I have options. And from all appearances, these options have all worked, at least in providing a way to remove the water.
True, it's crap that this is occuring at all, and it would be awesome to dry the area completely up, seal it all 100%, and be done with it. But it sounds like there very well may be numerous places water can get into the place.
So, whether you do or wether you don't try to fix you boat, it makes me feel a little better that SC did have a little to say on it (though they needed prodding several times). I would caution to take their stance at face value, but I don't think they would lead us all astray, not when it comes to the structural integrity of their boats - and not when we all love our Moombas as much as we do!
Never gonna happen! I have the crappiest dealer ever who is known for screwing up work like this! Hell they overtightened my oil filter and then wouldn't take responsibility for the work even though they were the last ones to touch it when i let them winterize in late '08, they didn't even winterize properly! Then they wanted it for a week to get it off!Quote:
Originally Posted by brain_rinse
Nope, they will never see my boat again. The funny thing was I brought up my concerns to Natalie Carrera way back in '08 about them and she insured me that their previous reputation issues had been addressed. I guess they didn't take it seriously. I made the mistake of telling a buddy to go to them, they screwed his up too! My bad, shame on me ... :cool:
More thoughts ...
I'm thinking this needs to be looked at by a neutral third party and assessed, no manufacturer is going to own up to a defect in hull design or construction. If this is indeed a defective design then even the "fix" may not actually fix this at all. Like i said earlier, If the water is getting in from somewhere else then this won't correct anything right?
Think about it, '07 up boats have dripless shaft seals so where would that much water be coming from? The bilge? Not enough to fill that bow cavity. I have a really hard time believing that much water can flow through the small hole into the ski locker from the bilge and go forward and over into that cavity. Water over the bow would flow over, accross the floor and to the rear of the boat. Sure some would get to the ski locker, but not that much!
Currently i don't have a ballast bag in the ski locker, the pump is even removed so no water can get in there from the ballast system yet there is still water there. There's no leaks in the cooling system at all so what gives?
Take away all the other variables i've heard. Rain storms; nope, not me. Water over the bow; not since summer of '08. Wet gear in locker; nope, never. So where is it coming from? It's enough that i have to suck it up with a vac or multiple towels. I'll know more in a couple days. This makes me wonder if this issue isn't part of the reason for their Vinylester Barrier they apply? To protect against extra water in the hull and delamination?
Just thinking openly is all. The more i see and read about this the madder it makes me. I love my LSV and it's been 100% reliable, but this is not right and needs to be addressed by SC, especially since the list is growing every day!
Grant read my previous post, #132.Quote:
Originally Posted by Grant M
When I removed all the foam, the water was very clear and there was absolutely no smell to the water or the inside of the compartment. I also just had the boat winterized so there was antifreeze in the motor bilge but there was no pink color to the water I was taking out for under the ski locker.
I just looked at lunch and there is another inch of water in the hole.
I have a real hard time with the comment SC made about the freezing of the water, that"s a lot of water and eventually SOMETHING will crake, break or heave over time. Yes it has some area to expand but the water should have a correct place to flow to and bilged out.
SC should at lest figure that out for us guys that do not have a Dealer in our area.
Mine was some nasty smelling $*it. Smelled like some fish had been stuffed up there and heated up really good, then left to cool, then heated up again, then left to cool, then heated up again, then.......Quote:
Originally Posted by T100
Yes, see post #86.Quote:
Originally Posted by Canuckle Head
There is no way you can get all the water out without going to the bottom of the foam core or even sucking the water off the top. The foam is FULL of water also. Not sure where a guy would put weeping holes.....?Quote:
Originally Posted by brain_rinse
Like I said before, SC should come up with a solution.
I really like T100's "solution". It's out of the way, simple, and should do the trick. I'm thinking that a solution like this, once you get what appears to be all the water out, it won't be much of an issue. I could see opening this up after each outing, or once a month, or whatever to suck out whatever made it's way in - but once the majority of the water is sucked out, I wouldn't think we'd see these spaces fill completely up again... that is, unless the water is coming straight from the bilge, unencombered (sorry, word of the day!). But getting the majority of the water out would prevent damage that might occur from having the entire cavity full.Quote:
Originally Posted by T100
But, now that I think more about it, I've seen my ski locker have quite a bit of water in it after a few hours on the water, and no idea how or where that water came from. Similar to what Razz has stated several times... I rarely if ever take water over the bow, don't store wet things in the locker... interesting.
Hopefully things will survive one more winter, and I'll check to see if I have this issue in the spring...
Quote:
Originally Posted by squeeg333
So to expand on that idea (which some have said) and to make this pretty much worry-free.
So whenever the ignition is turned on the auto bige pump is operational and would be functional. A cylindrical screen will keep foam where it belongs and a clean area for the pump.
- Drill a 6-8" opening in the ski locker floor comparable to the lowest collection point below.
- Carve out foam circularly same diameter as deck plate to hull.
- Insert circular screen from top to bottom in opening (similar to raw water filter screen).
- Insert and secure an auto bilge pump (ex: Rule 500 series) into opening.
- Plumb into front ballast drain.
- Wire to existing bilge pump circuit or another 12v ignition source.
- Insert a 6-8" deck plate in the ski locker and seal.
The biggest issue would be securing the bilge pump to an uneven surface. It would have to be very secure as that portion of the hull takes a bit of hammering unlike the stern bilge area.
The biggest plus to this which i believe was said, you wouldn't have to cut into your floor or worry about fixing the obvious defect (imo).
Hmmm ... I like this idea MUCH better than cutting the floor.
ya read my mind, i'm going to have to check my boat out as well.....and with that at the rear of the locker you will prob be able to fish a line from in front of your fuel tank hopefully as it wont have to go farQuote:
Originally Posted by T100
Same here. The other huge bonus would be that you've also addressed the "stank locker" issue by adding that deck plate. Aaaand you get redundant bilge pumps which is nice peace of mind.Quote:
Originally Posted by Razzman
Just a note for every one.....they have been using foam for flotation for years, even back when they used wood for stringers and floors. Although the wood would rot and the foam would become saturated.....just browse the supra or cc forum... or visa versa, I do not believe it ever caused a serious structural problem.....But it is an issue and I believe t100 solution with a bilge pump is an appropriate solution.......due to the design and the fact that water seeps everywhere it may even be the permanent solution and find its way as OEM on newer models.....Just because I said it, does not make it right but it is the way it is.
The only real issue I see with this is getting a pump close to the floor. If it's not close it will still leave water there. With a deep v keel that will be a challenge. Now if weep holes can be added as SC suggests that would eliminate the rest. But that would require pulling the gas tank. HmmmQuote:
Originally Posted by brain_rinse
I have an 08 XLV and I haven't noticed a squish sound in the basement of the boat but I've never compared the center compartment of the LSV/Outback to the XLV. I know for sure that the XLV center comparment has got to be much deeper that the other two models. However, I don't truly know if there is a false floor down there. As far as water getting into the bilge and/or under the void between the hull and gas tank...that's going to be from the in floor cooler on the XLV as it drains into that area in front of the gas tank and a small amount will come from the very little amount of water that will drip/leak from the ballast sac connectors in the center ballast. My boat storage area has a very steep incline that I pull my boat up (much steeper than the ramps) and I'll park there for a few minutes to allow that water from under the gas tank to make it's way to the "normal" bilge area and out the drain hole. So far, so good with me...I hope.
Well I had a couple extra minutes last night of free time so i grabbed the cordless drill with a 3/4 hole saw and started drilling-as soon as the pilot bit went thru I had water squirting up about a inch. Drilled the hole and water poured out for about 2 minutes-this is a 3/4 hole-that can only mean that the water is higher than the bottom of the ski locker floor. One good thing is the water didnt stink.
After 7 yrs of Moomba ownership with 2 boats this is the 1st time Ive really been upset about the product.
Plan to drill the hole out to 6" and add a deck plate and just vacum out the water once a month or so, or might put some tubeing down to the bottom and run it up to the side of the boat like the ballast drains-I could then just stand outside the boat and vacum the water from there-lost easier that way.
Add another to the list :cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by moombadaze
I kinda got the sme ideal last night, drill a 3/4" hole and see if water comes out, if so use a long piece of 3/4" copper pipe to the bottom (with holes drilled in it), attach a hose to it and siphon out all i can over the side and leave the hose there for the winter. That way i can repeatedly suck it out until totally empty/dry and repair in the spring.
dumb question:confused:, do supras have this issue too?
Member 09outback stated his '03 Launch SSV has the this issue as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by jmvotto
Add Iowa05LSV to the list.
We had this exact issue (if you look back you will see the thread from 1+ year ago). Our dealer (B and B in Delhi IA) resolve the issue for us. Since we didn't get the boat on the water this year, I can't speak to if this was a perminant solution.
Can you please go into some detail on what your dealer did?Quote:
Originally Posted by Iowa05LSV