Polar Bear 2018 Video

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03-12-2019, 09:53 AM
dakota4ce

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmvotto

Dude, your making my point , the line up for the PB best surf boats for 2019, subpar , only one 25 ft boat , a wake tractor ( really ) not and apples to apples comparison and lots of lead to try and equal, but as you stated doesn't matter how much lead I throw in a 23 ft boat wont compare to a 25 foot boat .

yes bigger boats make bigger waves.

That’s awesome that we are making the same point apparently!

What’s your dream lineup for a surf event?

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03-12-2019, 09:56 AM
dakota4ce

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmvotto

yes bigger boats make bigger waves.

I would not say that exactly. Deeper boats make bigger waves is how I would phrase it.

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03-12-2019, 09:58 AM
dakota4ce

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmvotto

I know I wasn't talking about wedge. tabs do gates don't

Gates flood over the top eventually and have a limited ceiling. A significant drawback. Gates also induce tremendous drag.

They work very well to a certain point, yes.

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03-12-2019, 10:00 AM
dakota4ce

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmvotto

find in the early thread where I typed Malibu , you could have guessed sanger or pavati but YOU didn't.

Bill Clinton , really , grow up.

Never grow up .

You bait me into saying Malibu. But You didn’t have anything to do with it. Got it. [emoji1743]*[emoji3603]

Were you perhaps thinking Malibu? Is that fair?

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03-12-2019, 10:01 AM
dakota4ce

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmvotto

I know I wasn't talking about wedge. tabs do gates don't

Oh my bad. You quoted my wedge post and responded.

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03-12-2019, 10:06 AM
jmvotto

Quote:

Originally Posted by dakota4ce

Never grow up .

You bait me into saying Malibu. But You didn’t have anything to do with it. Got it. [emoji1743]*[emoji3603]

Were you perhaps thinking Malibu? Is that fair?

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lol ......... really thought it was odd no tige but understand the friction. johhny steig may have send his A24 if asked
03-12-2019, 10:06 AM
dakota4ce

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmvotto

don't need it 300 on top of the hard tank under the cushions is just fine.

roll with me and I will show you fun.

I don’t doubt it would be fun!

The 23LSV we have is less than stellar without wedge and at least 500 in the bow. We run 11.4-11.6 mph. Maybe it changes with speed?

And with the requisite weight, the nose is low. Caution is recommended. But the wave is a sweet thing.

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03-12-2019, 10:07 AM
dakota4ce

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmvotto

lol ......... really thought it was odd no tige but understand the friction. johhny steig may have send his A24 if asked

They tried to get an Axis and it fell through. Same for the ZX5.

Not sure what Axis.

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03-12-2019, 10:14 AM
jmvotto

Quote:

Originally Posted by dakota4ce

That’s awesome that we are making the same point apparently!

What’s your dream lineup for a surf event?

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Supra SE
MC x24
Centurion RI257
Tige Z5
Malibu lsv25
pavati al24 or al 26 just because.
Nautique g25

I left out the" budget" models of each mfg not there is a budget model anymore
03-12-2019, 10:14 AM
TXSurf4

https://i.imgur.com/fI3omdh.png

I left yesterday and we were at 3 pages LOL!!
03-12-2019, 10:20 AM
jmvotto

Quote:

Originally Posted by TXSurf4

https://i.imgur.com/fI3omdh.png

I left yesterday and we were at 3 pages LOL!!

WW aint got nothing on us .. lol

winter doldrums definitely taking its toll up north
03-12-2019, 10:32 AM
dakota4ce

Polar Bear 2018 Video

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmvotto

Supra SE -needs weight
MC x24 -needs weight
Centurion RI257
Tige Z5 -needs weight
Malibu lsv25 -unknown, maybe needs gas LOL
pavati al24 or al 26 just because -needs huge weight
Nautique g25 -needs weight

There’s your fair playing field. Like I said I’m not sure about the 25 LSV—but the bone stock one that I rode behind in Feb was good but not amazing.

There, it’s ready. Tell LeadWake to ship in a few thousand pounds for the event if we want all things equal.

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03-12-2019, 10:50 AM
jmvotto

Quote:

Originally Posted by dakota4ce

There, it’s ready. Tell LeadWake to ship in a few thousand pounds for the event if we want all things equal.

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yes but probably not 7k
03-12-2019, 11:00 AM
dakota4ce

Polar Bear 2018 Video

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmvotto

yes but probably not 7k

To have enough I sure would. The Pavati will swallow 2K right off the bat. Poor little AL24 only weighs 4900#.

Anyway, we are in full agreement anyway so it’s all good? LOL

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03-12-2019, 11:34 AM
muehlcj

Quote:

Originally Posted by dakota4ce

Ok! Why don’t you create that system. You would be revolutionary! The hull and surf system that sinks itself.

You aren’t wanting to hear the physics. Yes it really would like to have 2000 pounds more. Do it with people. Do it with water. Do it with lead. It’s your choice.

What about a boat that is exactly the same length weighing 1200 pounds less to you doesn’t make sense? It has absolutely nothing to do with the shape of the boat or the type of tabs.

If you want your Makai to behave like an FI25, then fill it with water bags like the Fi is filled. Every compartment: WATER. No storage. Then you have what you’re asking for.

Not sure how else to communicate it.

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At a very simplified representation there are planning hulls and displacement hulls. Then you start taking sections through an actual hull port to starboard, bow to stern, keel to water line and looking at how that shape transitions and how the waterline changes with speed. Now you start getting into that CFD. You want to engage different shapes at different speeds to produce different results at different speeds. Initial lift at slow speeds, less lift at desired speed etc. Why shape a hull that fights your desired end result? Most wakeboats were already headed the right direction anyway but some have optimized for surfing better than other thus requiring less offset weight.

I guess all those fluids and aerodynamics classes I took are holding me back in the physics department.

You are looking at displacement in only a static situation. When the boat is sitting still overall weight of the boat + ballast will displace = weight in water. When you start moving all that changes.

I’m not arguing that a Makai needs more weight than a FI to achieve the same results. I think in fact that’s the point. One manufacture is set with killer wave from factory no need to 2-3k in lead and ones not.
03-12-2019, 11:40 AM
muehlcj

Quote:

Originally Posted by dakota4ce

There, it’s ready. Tell LeadWake to ship in a few thousand pounds for the event if we want all things equal.

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I'm not sure I understand "equal". Are you saying boat weight + ballast weight for each boat should be the same? That's not "equal". You add weight to the SE to get total weight the same as the RI257 you aren't equal because now you could add 2K to the RI and make it better.....
03-12-2019, 11:47 AM
dakota4ce

Quote:

Originally Posted by muehlcj

At a very simplified representation there are planning hulls and displacement hulls. Then you start taking sections through an actual hull port to starboard, bow to stern, keel to water line and looking at how that shape transitions and how the waterline changes with speed. Now you start getting into that CFD. You want to engage different shapes at different speeds to produce different results at different speeds. Initial lift at slow speeds, less lift at desired speed etc. Why shape a hull that fights your desired end result? Most wakeboats were already headed the right direction anyway but some have optimized for surfing better than other thus requiring less offset weight.

I guess all those fluids and aerodynamics classes I took are holding me back in the physics department.

You are looking at displacement in only a static situation. When the boat is sitting still overall weight of the boat + ballast will displace = weight in water. When you start moving all that changes.

I’m not arguing that a Makai needs more weight than a FI to achieve the same results. I think in fact that’s the point. One manufacture is set with killer wave from factory no need to 2-3k in lead and ones not.

Except how do you explain that if you give the Makai the same amount of weight as the FI it makes a very similar size and awesome wave? It really doesn’t need “more” than the Fi.

If you close that 1200 pound gap between the Polar Bear Fi and Makai, the waves are very similar. I have run mine at that weight. It’s ridiculous.

But....That shouldn’t happen with their hull designs being so different—right? Or maybe their differences simply don’t matter a lot in this situation and at these speeds. And overall displacement really isn’t the most important factor. It’s really about the depth of the hull in the water at weight and speed. And it’s ability to stay down. Nobody is really planing at surf speeds.

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03-12-2019, 11:50 AM
dakota4ce

Quote:

Originally Posted by muehlcj

I'm not sure I understand "equal". Are you saying boat weight + ballast weight for each boat should be the same? That's not "equal". You add weight to the SE to get total weight the same as the RI257 you aren't equal because now you could add 2K to the RI and make it better.....

Equal overall weight in order to sink the boat to similar depths.

The Ri comes with a LOT MORE stock water ballast than SE.

Yes you could add more to the Ri if you want. If you can get the motor to actually push it. You’re going to run into the limit of a single propeller to be able to push it.

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03-12-2019, 11:53 AM
dakota4ce

Quote:

Originally Posted by dakota4ce

Except how do you explain that if you give the Makai the same amount of weight as the FI it makes a very similar size and awesome wave? It really doesn’t need “more” than the Fi.

If you close that 1200 pound gap between the Polar Bear Fi and Makai, the waves are very similar. I have run mine at that weight. It’s ridiculous.

But....That shouldn’t happen with their hull designs being so different—right? Or maybe their differences simply don’t matter a lot in this situation and at these speeds. And overall displacement really isn’t the most important factor. It’s really about the depth of the hull in the water at weight and speed. And it’s ability to stay down. Nobody is really planing at surf speeds.

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I guess your solution would be that all other brands should offer huge factory water ballast like Centurion. They don’t unfortunately. They for some reason choose to offer storage.

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03-12-2019, 11:56 AM
jmvotto

Quote:

Originally Posted by dakota4ce

I guess your solution would be that all other brands should offer huge factory water ballast like Centurion. They don’t unfortunately. They for some reason choose to offer storage.

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They want to keep them off the bottom of the lake ...
03-12-2019, 11:58 AM
dakota4ce

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmvotto

They want to keep them off the bottom of the lake ...

Oh I get it. Centurion has cornered the market to floating better. Damn! That’s a huge competitive advantage.

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03-12-2019, 11:59 AM
dakota4ce

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmvotto

They want to keep them off the bottom of the lake ...

Frankly I don’t know how centurion is able to offer that much factory ballast. They obviously play the capacity rules differently with what they choose to equip their boats with.

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03-12-2019, 12:00 PM
jcredible

Quote:

Originally Posted by MJHSupra

Too bad the event did not have a method where the riders could post their comments on some of these boards. Like you did.

How many different boards did you get to ride - 6 to 8? If I recall, each rider gets 2 morning and 2 afternoon sets for 2 days? And 8 different boats to try.

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This thing escalated quickly! We got to ride behind 8 boats in the weekend...and I probably tried ~10 boards...as part way through the session I would swap if I wasn't digging the board. Here are some that I rode:

1) Zombie Next Level(A few different sizes) - So fast and fun...would buy one of these for sure
2) Soulcraft Da Honu - Was a 49" and super short...spun my first 360 on it and rode away!
3) Soulcraft Secret Weapon - Loved this board...ordered a shorter version that I am pumped to get on in May
4) A Zombie Hybrid...not sure the model - It was fun...but have decided the Hybrids are not really my thing...don't seem to do anything well with a bit of both worlds
5) Soulcraft AV Inspire - Was a great board too
6) BlueSurf - Not sure the model, and it was super choppy when riding it.
7) LibTechAir'N - I liked this board...would consider buying one just due to the invincibility of it not getting dinged up!
8) Hyperlite Varial - I couldn't seem to make this one work for me personally.
9) Soulcraft custom build of the fella on our boat. - I was super little and fast...loved it.
10) Victoria Captain - Just tried a Skim...personally like the surf style more!
03-12-2019, 12:06 PM
dakota4ce

I don’t believe it’s really escalated. We are discussing how it can possibly be that 2 different 25’ boats that have a 1200# weight difference whilst surfing could possible have a noticeable wave difference.

A. It must be that the lighter of the 2 has a crappy hull and surf system that needs to be revisited.

B. Or, maybe is it because the heavier one, well, is a lot heavier? Like 1200# worth.

Folks have asserted A. I think it’s primarily B.

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03-12-2019, 12:49 PM
shockthis

Anyone ever seen either of these?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYJ85CEc2Sw

https://patents.google.com/patent/US7216601B1/en
03-12-2019, 03:48 PM
larry_arizona

Quote:

Originally Posted by shockthis

Anyone ever seen either of these?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYJ85CEc2Sw

https://patents.google.com/patent/US7216601B1/en

Isn’t this similar to centurions ram fill?

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03-12-2019, 04:27 PM
trayson

Quote:

Originally Posted by dakota4ce

That being said—I wanna surf a foil this year. That could be a place for a smaller wave!

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I tried surfing my foil a couple times. And I realized I had "too much ballast"!!! And also having the 30" mast wasn't great and I need to try surfing the foil with the 20" mast instead. We just don't spend a lot of time on the foil. It's usually an afterthought if we have "extra" time after ski, wakeboard, surf.
03-12-2019, 04:31 PM
dakota4ce

Quote:

Originally Posted by trayson

I tried surfing my foil a couple times. And I realized I had "too much ballast"!!! And also having the 30" mast wasn't great and I need to try surfing the foil with the 20" mast instead. We just don't spend a lot of time on the foil. It's usually an afterthought if we have "extra" time after ski, wakeboard, surf.

We have a limited amount of calm water, so maybe the foil can provide some fun after the lake gets chopped up a little bit.

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03-12-2019, 08:38 PM
trayson

Quote:

Originally Posted by dakota4ce

We have a limited amount of calm water, so maybe the foil can provide some fun after the lake gets chopped up a little bit.

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It is good for that. but even the foil is affected to some degree by chop (though not in the normal way). When you're foiling, you don't want the blades to breach the surface of the water, so if there's 1 foot high chop, and you're only riding on the 2' mast, there's not a lot of room for error. That's why if I'm riding at wakeboard length it's been more fun on the 30" mast.

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