Here’s another crazy finding, my Makai was better with GSA, but not markedly so. In fact, it was hard to tell. I removed it and went back to factory software functionality because of Autolaunch.
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Here’s another crazy finding, my Makai was better with GSA, but not markedly so. In fact, it was hard to tell. I removed it and went back to factory software functionality because of Autolaunch.
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Flow and Swell are different because Supra and Moomba are actually 2 different companies under Skiers Choice.. they each also have their own engineers.. my guess is they're different because the hulls are different between the 2 with different geometry. Just an uneducated guess, not sure why they share some tech but not the surf system.
Not sure why so argumentative.Quote:
Originally Posted by dakota4ce
There are certainly changes to be made and it's obviously not going to bolt up with stock gsa parts.
My last gsa build used 2.25" short throw Bennett actuators so that's not a problem.
Auto level and launch would still work if done correctly. It all comes down to the geometry of the mounting to get the deployments close to the factory deployment with similar timing.
Not trying to be an ass but just because you bolted stock parts up and it didn't work doesn't mean it can't if done properly.
At that point it looks like you're just wanting a larger tab? I'm not sure all the effort on a boat that has a nice surf system is really worth all the effort.. several people have done gsa on the new boats, all said it was better, and only marginally, and that may have just been hopeful thinking because they spent the money to do it. Really hard to quantify results.Quote:
Originally Posted by SONIC
Gsa tabs are a lot more than just larger tabs.
I like to tinker and make things. My SA wave is great. If I can make it better why not.
To clarify spending 4k on it is in no way worth it on a new boat IMO.
But I can make them for nothing and see what happens.
Fair enough.. have fun, hopefully it's great, I'll buy a set, lolQuote:
Originally Posted by SONIC
I did not “bolt stock parts” up. I installed GSA.Quote:
Originally Posted by SONIC
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Really interested to see how you got the large range of movement out of a 2.25” stock actuator without overloading it due to what will need to be a very short lever arm. Show me some pics of your last build? What was it on?Quote:
Originally Posted by SONIC
I would never do it in a 2020 SA personally. The improvement in wave was negligible at best on Makai. Swell 3.0 is a great setup.
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You’re right, it’s all geometry. So you’re going to change the mounting point of the GSA tab to be much closer to the hinge. Like, borderline right next to the hinge. At that point it’s not a GSA tab, it’s a home made tab that is like GSA. That’s a bit different than what we were talking about. Which was converting a SC boat to GSA tabs. You’re starting from scratch with one off stuff out of your shop.Quote:
Originally Posted by SONIC
I personally would be very concerned about auto leveling—deploying that giant tab into the water stream at 25mph. That’s a shit ton of force on the mounting screws.
I say get to getting! It would be neat to see.
Show us what you did before?
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Tige 23V.Quote:
Originally Posted by dakota4ce
It is a short lever arm, but no issue with the actuators.
30 degrees up 14 degrees down.
Attachment 28935
Lots of testing with placement to get it right.
Attachment 28936
i agree Swell3 is very good, but I'd put money on GSA style being better. No way to know but to try though :D
If you reread my post that got you all hot and bothered you'll see I said GSA Style tab :D Hence why I said you used stock parts.Quote:
Originally Posted by dakota4ce
On my tige I used them for launch mode and I did use them to level on occasion but I agree its a lot of force on the screws at that point. That being said they didn't fail.
I would suspect your mounting brackets might have to have to look a little something like the Swell 3.0 brackets look which move the top mount of the actuator out and away from the boat—in order to get the range of movement you need.
Anyway, good luck!
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I agree, I really like the approach SC took there, it's really clever and is much better for the actuators long term IMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by dakota4ce
I would likely clone the Swell bracketry and replace the swell tab with the GSA style tab and then figure out the actuator throw for placement of the attachment point to the tab.
Just depends on how bored I get this winter!
Yeah I guess you got me really good there with the word “style.” To me the spirit of the conversation is really about being able to put GSA tabs on a swell or flow boat. That for me really is the only practical way to discuss this, because I do not have a fabrication shop or the time to spend figuring it all out. Nor does most everyone else—except of course you. Remaking the entire system to be one-off custom opens up the realm of what’s possible without a doubt. But nobody besides you will be able to get it done. I am a stock parts guy. Mostly anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by SONIC
Good luck! For the rest of us, GSA tabs on a Skier’s choice boat are pretty much a pipe dream.
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You permanently bend both tabs to match the flow 3.0. When not in surf mode how much actual drag will be placed on the tabs? If there is a small amount of stage placed on the tabs will it be much and eventually wear out the connection to the boat. I’d try a none permanent solution.
Y’all got me thinking about the possibility of converting 2.0 to 3.0, seems like a reverse lever system could work....
Thinking out loud here: One end mounted to the transom, fixed pivot point mounted to the regular tab, other end mounted on the “flap” at the end of the tab. As the regular tab goes down and away from the transom, it would extend the flap. The amount of “throw” achieved could be altered by using different length arms between the moving pivots and the fixed pivot.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...2f53cf08a6.jpg
I'd be willing to try, as long as its not permanent.Quote:
Originally Posted by z28ke
Am I missing something here? If delayed convergence is what you’re after why not try a hillbilly homemade suckgate out and see if it improves your wave. If Flow 3.0 is such a game changer ( I’m not so sure it is) someone will do the R&D for you and then just buy the product with all the bugs already worked out..just sayin
I’m with you, a baby suckgate would simulate the same “crab” effect of the 3.0 wing with the 2.0 tab deployed. I’m not putting my time and energy into it making a 2.0 to 3.0 conversion, I just saw working out the mechanics of it without an additional actuator as a fun challenge to discuss.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommy2slow
I don't think its a game changer. It just allows clean waves on each side without dicking around with ballast or going for more list angle. Fill everything, have clean wave no matter what side you choose because of the yaw it adds. That is it. Convenience.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommy2slow
And it works. Well. True level weighted clean side switching.
Heck you could add the additional actuator and just put it on manual switches. Same same.Quote:
Originally Posted by z28ke
Adding a suck gate would actually make it less convenient than offsetting ballast to clean the wave up.
Absolutely, I just started thinking about how do you mechanically (without an actuator) make something deploy downward, while it is attached to something that is also deploying downward? Obviously the engineers at SC decided an electric actuator is best, but I was stumped at the challenge of trying to figure out an alternative. A reverse lever is what I came up with. Just nerding out here trying to solve a hypothetical problem since I found it interesting lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by dakota4ce
Sorry bud, I wasnÂ’t directing my question at anyone in particular. I was just wondering after reading the thread why nobody was using a suckgate of some kind to create the delayed convergence that Is the intended effect of the 3.0 to see how well it works. For sure, the convenience of having it only the push of a button away is attractive but I would want to see the effects of the gate on the wave first if I could. I already weight my boat evenly so a quick change to one side or the other for a suckgate wouldnÂ’t be a huge hassle. As far as even weight goes and using delayed convergence, I would be willing to bet that Nauti and Malibu owners still list their boats to clean up their wave.Quote:
Originally Posted by z28ke
Your ideas on adding a linkage that lowers the hinged corner as the surf tabs are lowered is bordering on genius though. If you actually figure it out IÂ’ll be the first to place an order.
Cheers
Yaw. It makes yaw. We are looking for yaw.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommy2slow
Delayed convergence is a somewhat mythical concept written in a brilliant Malibu Patent.
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Make a mini suckgate and stick on the side of the boat. :)
Delayed convergence is what all surf gates, tabs, shapers, and listing do, in different ways. It's all the same result. A wave.Quote:
Originally Posted by dakota4ce
Do you have a pic of it extended? I have a hard time believing you got any kind of travel with a 2.25" throw actuator. I built a similar system, and short throw wouldn't work. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...18414de072.jpgQuote:
Originally Posted by SONIC
What? Never heard of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shoebox
Just kidding. I know this.
The small plate on 3.0 adds a yaw moment. That’s what I was clarifying.
My comment about it being mythical is because their patent uses that term, but applies to everything. It really is a brilliant patent but is far too broad. But it’s too late for that critique, though.
I am going to patent accelerated convergence and sue them.
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He would really only need 5-7 degrees below the boat bottom—thats where all mine were best. Of course considering errors in measurement. Measuring that angle is different every time it seems.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shoebox
This pic looks like you have a lot of down travel.
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I'll see what I can find.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shoebox
I had 30 degrees up and 14 degrees down.
Ask and ye shall receive.
https://forum.moomba.com/attachment....2&d=1597939211
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...f7833d666a.jpg
That’s a gigantic actuator for 2.25”! Weird looking. Seems like it’s as long as a Lenco body is for the 4.25” version.
What’s the actuator look like In the up position? Not familiar with Bennet at all. Looks like it’s mounted exactly like a Lenco would be—really far outboard on the plate. I would have expected the opposite.
Are the plate dimensions similar?
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The tabs are same basic dimensions as the GSA tabs
They are Bennet Bolt actuators, their newer line to compete with Lenco.
Nice thing is lifetime warranty so no more having to buy new lencos every few years lol They warrantied one that I broke with a misalignment without question.
Only downside is the bottom mount is plastic where the lenco is metal.
13.75" length 2.5" stroke. (I misspoke on the 2.25 if that 1/4" matters to anyone :D)
https://forum.moomba.com/attachment....3&d=1597941037
They make kits to convert lencos over so I assume they are the same dimensions essentially, but the bolts are larger in diameter.
I don't have anything to add here but I find this a super interesting conversation. I learned a lot more about how these systems work. I've wondered, all summer, how my Supra can make such a great wave equally weighted when my old Supra needed to be listed to make a good wave. We tried listing the new boat and the wave was worse. These systems want equal weight and really are ingenious.
All about the yaw! Gets that rooster tail away from the wave face and cleans that mess right up. Pretty sweet!Quote:
Originally Posted by tre
GSA plates make yaw with the vectoring channels built into the plate. Very slick design.
Surf systems have come a long way in just a few years that's for sure.
Many different approaches can all create a great wave Surfgates (malibu), Tabs (SC, Tige, Mastercraft, centurion, etc) and NSS (nautique) are all different approaches to the same goal and they all work.
This is a great discussion. With the 2.0 system being on many boats out in the wild a manual or synchronized way of adding the 3.0 lip would be a big hit. I’m a nurse and work on people so, I have nothing to add except a boat I’ll trial something you good people can come up with.
Yeah I know, it wasn't really directed at you, more the guy who you were replying to.Quote:
Originally Posted by dakota4ce
He said he has 30 up and 14 down. Not sure what my up was, looked similar to his, and I had it set to 18 down - too much as you noted, 5 was perfect. But not too different than what he had, and adjustable depending on which mount hole was used, and where I mounted the lower mount. I suppose you could get significant up and 6-8 down with a short throw actuator.Quote:
Originally Posted by dakota4ce
You can see in this pic of the smaller tabs I made as well, I could get between 12 and 30 down depending on where I placed the lower mount. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...bbc25afea0.jpg
Yeah as you know a small movement in the actuator mount can have a large effect on the deployment, looks like on your small tabs about an inch of placement difference yielded 18 degrees of change.
Through a lot of trial and error on placement for both ends i was able to get the extension and retraction that I wanted with the 2.5" actuator.
It would have been easier with the 4.5" version but I wanted to give the bennetts a try and they don't have the long throw versions.