Ethanol vs non-ethanol, problems?

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07-17-2019, 11:04 PM
Jeepers

Quote:

Originally Posted by jason1973

All pump gas is required to have detergent. I am not sure where you got this from. At least in the midwest. They ALL have detergent packages. Its required.

That is not true. There is no regulation requiring any detergents or additives in gasoline! Check you facts!

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07-17-2019, 11:05 PM
Jeepers

Quote:

Originally Posted by MLA

The EPA does mandate a basic additives package for every gallon of road fuel that goes into the pipelines. The more name brand gas companies do add some proprietary additives to the gas once they draw it from the pipeline though. IMO, this is manly marketing.

I fuel up at where ever the gas is the cheapest. My 17 year old SUV with 280K averaged 16+ MPG from new up to the day it died. Zero fuel problems.

And your study population is 1. Glad physicians don’t use those sample sizes when studying medications, surgical techniques and treatment protocols!

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07-17-2019, 11:07 PM
Jeepers

Quote:

Originally Posted by sandm

edo- texas may be different due to the location to refineries but out west in Boise, there was only 1 main pipeline into the valley and all but 1 of the major brands buys from the same source out of salt lake city(iirc flying J travel center buys from a different refinery in slc and trucks it up). each manufacturer then adds their own special mixture to make it unique. chevron could get the "bottom of the barrel" and then add from there. stations are selling the same basic gas and adding what they want to it but in the end costco, walmart, chevron, insert any name here- are all coming from the same holding tanks.
I would be surprised if it's much different around other parts of the US. with razor-thin margins buying in bulk from wherever and adding your own additives makes business sense.

https://www.idahostatesman.com/news/...e40864992.html

not sure about requirements in the midwest with detergent being required but would not surprise me. gasoline in green bay was price controlled in that you could not sell below cost so everyone sold for the same amount. no reason to not add it as margins were the same for everyone.

So you now know why Maverick gas is less expensive.

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07-17-2019, 11:13 PM
Jeepers

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edo88

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...6f12df5a93.jpg

I’m just saying there is a big difference between top tier fuel and regular there’s nothing wrong with running cheap fuel on a motor that uses good ol sequential or TB injection. But for motors with direct injection I would only run a top tier brand even if it is 87 octane seen plenty of motors carbon up with 30 40k miles. Vw actually made us add a fuel additive that would help break the carbon down if it had cold start misfires. Lexus was replacing pistons. Since carbon is a by product of combustion and with direct injection you don’t have the injector cleaning the valve a good detergent is a must

We had a diesel that got bad fuel at shell and blew up the injection pump and sent metal through the entire system shell cut a check for 10k for the repairs also another reason I’ll only get fuel at a reputable place.

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Even standard fuel injector performance will decrease with regular use of non-detergent gasoline. Running every other tank probably won’t cause an issue.

I guess folks just need to ask themselves if saving a nickel per gallon ($2 per 40gallons) is worth it. It reminds me of my wife who use to drive all the way across town to save a couple cents per gallon. It made sense in her mind until I showed her the math.

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07-18-2019, 12:48 AM
Edo88

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeepers

Even standard fuel injector performance will decrease with regular use of non-detergent gasoline. Running every other tank probably won’t cause an issue.

I guess folks just need to ask themselves if saving a nickel per gallon ($2 per 40gallons) is worth it. It reminds me of my wife who use to drive all the way across town to save a couple cents per gallon. It made sense in her mind until I showed her the math.

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I’m pro detergents won’t run anything but a top tier fuel supplier. I’ve torn plenty of motors down and seen the difference between Kroger fuel and shell. That being said all my vehicles are diesel lol. Just the boat is gas powered but it only gets top tier

Side note though surprised no one has mentioned the crankcase recirculation system and how much cleaner a engine would be if one was to bypass it and install a catch can system

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07-18-2019, 06:37 AM
larry_arizona

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeepers

You can only take advantage of the higher octane if you increase the engine’s compression. Tuning won’t do jack crap and anyone who says otherwise you should ignore. They have no fricken clue what they’re talking about.

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So how come I can put a stock truck
running 87 octane from the factory on a dyno......say a GM 5.3L and increase the timing and fuel tables with 93 octane and make more horsepower?

How did GM in 2014+ have the 5.3L make 355hp 383 ft lbs on 87, but when running 105 octane E85 it makes 380hp and 417 ft.lbs knowing GM increase the timing tables when the alcohol sensor reads 85% alcohol?

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07-18-2019, 08:49 AM
MLA

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeepers

And your study population is 1. Glad physicians don’t use those sample sizes when studying medications, surgical techniques and treatment protocols!

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LOL, its all good. My vehicle is just one small sample of my experience over a 30+ year career in the automotive repair/instruction and boat industry.
07-18-2019, 08:57 AM
larry_arizona

I just rolled 250k miles on all original drivetrain on a 2002 Sierra 4x4 5.3l, runs great, reliable and consumes nearly zero oil.

I just changed the oil for the 10th time.......I will let that sink in for a moment.

Amsoil since day 1.

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07-18-2019, 10:53 AM
sandm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeepers

You can only take advantage of the higher octane if you increase the engine’s compression. Tuning won’t do jack crap and anyone who says otherwise you should ignore. They have no fricken clue what they’re talking about.

tuning is one of the best ways to get more poop out of a motor without changing the octane or compression requirements.
the raptor 400 and 440 motors are identical. only difference is software. where is the extra hp/tq coming from the 440?
personal experience. in 2006 I drove my evo9 to oregon. car was filled with 91octane premium(recommended by mitsu). a guy named Jestr flew from Florida for a tuning session. strapped the evo to the dyno. base pull was 302hp/297tq. only opened the hood to cool the engine-no parts added and nothing mechanical changed. no changes to fuel or additives. 7 pulls and 30 minutes later. dyno reads 363hp/362tq. where did the extra 60hp/tq come from with no changes in octane or compression.
take a car tuned on 87, feed it 93, change nothing else and if you messed with the tune you will get more hp/tq out of it. messing with the timing and fuel delivery will net more power.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeepers

Even though the gas station sign says: Chevron, Conoco, Texaco... the non-ethanol fuel the station is selling is not from that brand. They buy the non-ethanol from tiny local fuel distributors and there are no detergents.

read this article and see that in Boise's case ALL fuel is coming from the same source whether it's ethanol/non-ethanol/top tier/discount. additives are added later. the couple stations that sold both mid grade ethanol and mid grade non-ethanol are getting them out of the same bulk tank of fuel.
interesting that I would bet a lunch spokane is operating the same way as some of your gas is coming through the same pipe from boise and some from billings thru a similar pipe/delivery system. betting money just like boise the additives/ethanol are put in once in the area.
https://www.idahostatesman.com/news/...e40864992.html .

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edo88

Side note though surprised no one has mentioned the crankcase recirculation system and how much cleaner a engine would be if one was to bypass it and install a catch can system

had one in the evos. just don't let the emissions testing stations catch you ;) primary goal was keeping the oil out of the intake tract. iirc I dumped a small amount each month. probably a 1/4qt each oil change.
07-18-2019, 10:59 AM
larry_arizona

GM engines LS and LT should run a catch can, especially on a supercharged variant like the LSA, LS9, LT4 and LT5. The PCV systems are a little goofy.

I understand guys who are wrench savy, but regular joe would struggle with understanding the catch can maintenance.

I run one on my LSA and it keeps the intake tract clean.

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07-18-2019, 11:12 AM
sandm

Quote:

Originally Posted by larry_arizona

I understand guys who are wrench savy, but regular joe would struggle with understanding the catch can maintenance.

meh. just have them blow the oil under the car onto the street. no different than all the cigarette butts you see people flick out the window. society today doesn't give 2 poops about littering :)

I do jest :)
07-18-2019, 11:24 AM
larry_arizona

Quote:

Originally Posted by sandm

meh. just have them blow the oil under the car onto the street. no different than all the cigarette butts you see people flick out the window. society today doesn't give 2 poops about littering :)

I do jest :)

Bwahahaha, you could use it for oil slick mode.

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07-18-2019, 11:38 AM
sandm

way to put your james bond hat on :)
07-18-2019, 12:24 PM
Matt0520

Quote:

Originally Posted by larry_arizona

For the record, Costco gas is top tier.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...3d1a1e96b3.jpg

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Good to know! It’s the best and cheapest near me!

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08-02-2019, 03:29 PM
Jeepers

Quote:

Originally Posted by larry_arizona

So how come I can put a stock truck
running 87 octane from the factory on a dyno......say a GM 5.3L and increase the timing and fuel tables with 93 octane and make more horsepower?

How did GM in 2014+ have the 5.3L make 355hp 383 ft lbs on 87, but when running 105 octane E85 it makes 380hp and 417 ft.lbs knowing GM increase the timing tables when the alcohol sensor reads 85% alcohol?

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The HP increase comes from the timing modification not from the 93 octane fuel. The 93 octane fuel allows you to advance the timing without getting pre-ignition.

Advancing the timing is moving back from TDC, earlier in the compression cycle. Due to the length of time it takes the air/fuel to burn after it's ignited, it is ignited prior to TDC, giving it time to burn and gain peak combustion, which then forces the piston down.

As the octane number increases, it becomes harder and harder to burn. This helps prevent pre-ignition only and has nothing to do with HP gains.

This also answers the last part of your question. If you use a lower octane rated fuel in an engine not designed for that octane the engine can not run efficiently. When the “APPROPRIATE” octane rating for that engine is used, the engine runs at optimal efficiency which translates into more power output. It’s modifications which are adding the HP, not the octane.

Using higher octane fuel in an Unmodified engine gives you nothing. Once you modify the engine: advance the timing, increase compression... the higher octane fuel is needed to prevent the air fuel mixture from igniting too early in the compression stroke. That’s it. There’s nothing magic about.

Is octane important? Absolutely? But more is only better when you’re modifying the engine or designing the engine to run at higher compression ratios and combustion timing modifications. To get the full benefit of the modification you need a higher octane fuel (again, simply to make the fuel more difficult to ignite either under pressure or higher temps.

Again: The 1st octane booster was lead. Lead is not flammable. Adding lead simply made it more difficult to ignite the fuel. It reduces the fuels volatility. However, once the fuel is ignited high octane fuel and low octane fuel produce the same energy.

It’s the modification that produces the HP. The higher octane just allows you to maximize the advantage of those modifications. If there’s no modification your just wasting your money on the higher octane fuel.

There’s like 10,000 articles on the internet about this.

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08-02-2019, 03:39 PM
Jeepers

Quote:

Originally Posted by sandm

tuning is one of the best ways to get more poop out of a motor without changing the octane or compression requirements.
the raptor 400 and 440 motors are identical. only difference is software. where is the extra hp/tq coming from the 440?
personal experience. in 2006 I drove my evo9 to oregon. car was filled with 91octane premium(recommended by mitsu). a guy named Jestr flew from Florida for a tuning session. strapped the evo to the dyno. base pull was 302hp/297tq. only opened the hood to cool the engine-no parts added and nothing mechanical changed. no changes to fuel or additives. 7 pulls and 30 minutes later. dyno reads 363hp/362tq. where did the extra 60hp/tq come from with no changes in octane or compression.
take a car tuned on 87, feed it 93, change nothing else and if you messed with the tune you will get more hp/tq out of it. messing with the timing and fuel delivery will net more power.

read this article and see that in Boise's case ALL fuel is coming from the same source whether it's ethanol/non-ethanol/top tier/discount. additives are added later. the couple stations that sold both mid grade ethanol and mid grade non-ethanol are getting them out of the same bulk tank of fuel.
interesting that I would bet a lunch spokane is operating the same way as some of your gas is coming through the same pipe from boise and some from billings thru a similar pipe/delivery system. betting money just like boise the additives/ethanol are put in once in the area.
https://www.idahostatesman.com/news/...e40864992.html .

had one in the evos. just don't let the emissions testing stations catch you ;) primary goal was keeping the oil out of the intake tract. iirc I dumped a small amount each month. probably a 1/4qt each oil change.

Good article regarding Dyno test.

https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cul...-dyno-numbers/

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08-02-2019, 03:55 PM
Jeepers

https://youtu.be/gqvhaPLuTPI

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08-02-2019, 04:41 PM
Jeepers

https://www.bellperformance.com/blog...Octane-Ratings

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08-02-2019, 08:04 PM
larry_arizona

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeepers

https://youtu.be/gqvhaPLuTPI

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This dudes videos are pretty damn good. Well explained about how you can make more HP with higher octane if you add timing and how low octane will drop to lower timing tables when knock is sensed.

This is of course assuming the engine is tuned for the higher octane.

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