Keep it coming, Matt! Great info.
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Keep it coming, Matt! Great info.
Maybe this had happened to other people , but today while using auto wake , had everything set for port surfing got going auto wake achieved, then the wake started to look like crap , my wife was driving, we stop and look at the screen , and the suffer dude was still pointed for port surf , starboard plate was down , but the auto wake settings changed to starboard surf settings while driving and it had dumped 65% of the port ballast, had to flip the auto flow switch to middle and start over , I have noticed alot but I can catch it when I drive , some major software issues going on
Similar thing has happened on my 17 Mojo. I was surfing port side, wife was driving. On autowake, boat was dumping port locker and listing to starboard.Quote:
Originally Posted by stevemarich
Has happened a few times. Very frustrating.
Don't like the idea of driving 4 hours round-trip to see if dealer can replicate it. Which of course they won't.
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Common factor is the wife....jus' sayin' 🤷🏼*♂️
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Yeah, I went down that road. After I got out of the doghouse, I became confident it was software issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stazi
It happened today when I was driving.
Seems like it is trying to achieve opposite side pitch and roll settings.
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I would have gone down that road too, but auto flow switch was still in same place, starboard plate was in the same position , and screen indicated surf port , but the auto wake settings changed to the starboard settings , the other times when it happens it is when I turn the boat off to change riders , turn boat off , key back to on to get everything booted up , but when the key is turned back on , the port plate goes down , but the switch is still in surf port , flip the switch to middle and back all is normal , it does this 1 out of 5 times , having it change the actual auto wake settings while driving , I don't think my wife could navigate through the menu and do that while driving , and again flip switch to middle and back to surf port ,all is good , other than the time it took to get the ballast refilled.
Steve and Kenn, I am going to send this feedback to our vendor. Honestly, I have never seen this, but as you eluded to, software glitches can happen. The hardest software glitches to fix are when they happen randomly and are not reproducible. I will also try doing some testing and see if I can duplicate. Typically when we test systems such as this, we do more cycle testing to see what happens when you switch from surf left, to surf right, to off, etc. It sounds like your issue is happening more from long term use in the same day with multiple key cycles?? Is that accurate? Or is there anything else that maybe you are doing that might help me trying to trouble shoot?? My typical personal family use is quite different. I surf port side, but also surf some stbd side. I like mixing it up quite a bit so I don't typically surf the same side for very long. My oldest surfs port and my wife surfs starboard. In addition, we have an almost 3 year old and between sets we do a lot of swimming. I typically turn the system off between sets so that I don't accidentally the leave the system on when I put it on the trailer because sometimes the swim sessions turn into long affairs that end up with going home. My oldest is also 10 and that means we rarely ever go to the lake without a friend. Most times that friend doesn't know how to surf or wakeboard so we pull them on the wake sled or kneeboard. And occasionally my wife likes to ski. What I am saying is we typically use the boat for all disciplines and very randomly throughout the day. So, maybe how I use the boat is a lot different than how you guys are using the boat and maybe that is why I haven't seen this "glitch" you are talking about. If you have any more details that might help us duplicate it let me know. If you want you can also email me at [email protected] if you don't want to write a novel on here about it. Thanks for the feedback and hopefully if there is a glitch we can find it and fix it. And I also assume you are running 2017 software? Maybe if it was a glitch then it got corrected already? If not, then we do need to correct it so thanks for your help.
We all surf port in my family and crew, after going to bigger bags we have to list slightly to keep the surf tabs 65 and under for the port side so no more transfer while surfing for now , yes running a 2017 , the glitches that happen the most are when after surfing port for awhile, turn the boat off to swap riders , after turning the boat off, I turn the key back to the on position after a minute or less to let the system boot up while rider's are changing, before powering off, everything is left in surf port side, when powering back on the starboard plate comes up and the port plate will go down, but the surfer dude is still showing surf port and auto flow is in surf port, no huge issue as I see it happening and flip the auto flow to middle and back and problem solved for now, that issue happens about 1 out of 5 times same. The most frustrating one is when using auto wake , I got everything set for my daughter to surf, ran the boat till auto wake was achieved, turned it off , got her in water and ready , started surfing , no issues, did 10 minute run she drops the rope and goes for a minute without it , and falls out of wake , her own mistake,we circle around throw the rope and go again , never shutting boat off or changing anything, after going for 5. Minutes or so I'm noticing the wave changing for the worse , we stop and looking at the screen the set point in auto wake changed to the starboard settings, auto flow was still in surf port , just set points changed , so it dropped port bag to 50,% and filled starboard to 100% while starboard plate is still deployed. I definitely get glitches in software , see it all the time in New vehicles. Hope there is enough to go of for some think tank action. Keep up the good work , any manufacturer will have some sort issue with something, it's how they address it is key . Thanks for your involvement Matt, speaks wonders about SC.
Perfect! That type of detail helps a lot and I will try that exact setup and see what I can find. I am sorry you had that issue and glitch, but maybe with your help we can figure out what is going on and get an improved version. Like I said, the 2018 software actually works in 2017 and adds some additional logic like predictive state that honestly I think you will love! It also removes ballast minimums and the logic that auto fills one side before doing anything else. It might be possible that when we changed to the predictive logic it fixed a glitch we didn't know existed. But it might still be there and we didn't even know. As an fyi, there is also a soft and hard bootup based on time that key is off. It might be that we need to test more what happens if you leave the systems on during these and that might be the cause of the glitch. I will keep you posted. Thanks again for the help and patience on the matter.Quote:
Originally Posted by stevemarich
You bet , the good news is that they are minor glitches imop and never have caused us to come off the water early which is awesome, I will try to get a video if I rememberQuote:
Originally Posted by goose
I sent an email with a screen shot of the system info. Also included some detail on our experience to help with potential diagnose of issue.
For sake of other forum members, the upshot is that my experience is essentially similar, which is to say, Autowake seems to be trying to achieve goofy surfing "roll" even when set for regular surfing.
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I can confirm some of the same issues on my 17 mojo. I have not noticed issues with the wrong plate deploying but I did see the weight being sent to the opposite bags yesterday. Initially the port wave was dialed once autowake was achieved with no rider. We stopped and turned the engine off to get a surfer in the water, started back up and got under way, it looked great but with in a few mins the wave started falling apart. I checked the percentages on the rear bags and the port bag had emptied while the starboard bag had filled. I turned auto flow off and manually got the bags back to where they should have been and the wave was rockin again.Quote:
Originally Posted by stevemarich
Yep, exactlyQuote:
Originally Posted by moombahighrider
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can this be added to the 16 craz and cost?
Well, thanks to all the feedback and detailed explanation, I have been able to duplicate the issue. Honestly, I apologize and I am embarrassed that we were not able to catch this glitch in the validation process. What I have found is this...Sometimes when the switch is in Surf Port location, if you turn the key off, it actually sends a command to the PDM that tells the system to switch sides. If you look very closely before the screen shuts off, when this happens you can see the surf guy quickly change sides and it does change the roll default. If you look at the transom, this signal actually pulls up the stbd plate and deploys the port plate. The reason is does this is because all the commands are actually sent via a ground signal. It doesn't happen every time, but sometimes in the power down sequence, it actually sends a ground signal to the wrong input and slips the operation. I could NOT get the glitch to happen when leaving the port plate down for surfing stbd side so that is why some people might not ever see it. Also, if you turn surf off every time like I do, you wouldn't see it. However, if you surf port side all the time and leave switch in that position, then it wouldn't surprise me if you saw it very often through the day. Why it does that is very complicated and honestly I don't understand it but that is what is happening. The worst part is when you turn key back on, the little surfer switches back to the correct side, however the wrong plate stays down and the roll default stays wrong. So, it would actually completely ruin the wake because the wrong plate is deployed and it would try and drain ballast from wrong side. To fix it, you have to turn surf off, then back to correct side. I have relayed all this to the vendor, they are going to try and issue a field fix asap and we will try to make that field fix as easily accessible as possible. Of course, once we have it you can contact your dealer if you don't feel like flashing the software, but you can also do it yourself by putting the file on a memory stick and following a process.
Again I sincerely apologize that we didn't catch this glitch to now. But we do really appreciate the feedback and hopefully now we will have a better system because of it. Also, I feel terrible because I thought some of our negative feedback was because people may not have understood AutoWake or changed settings, when the truth is this glitch probably caused lots of frustration and poor performance. Again, until we get the fix you can just turn Surf off and back on to make sure it is correct, or look at the roll number. Or turn surf off when you turn the key off. Hopefully we will have a fix very quickly and I will post again on here how to get the fix and how to reflash the software. Thank you for your help and patience.
Unfortunately you can not add AutoWake to any 2016 except the Helix. It requires the color 480 display. The standard display in 2016 did not have enough processing power or memory to handle the software. Sorry.Quote:
Originally Posted by Smokeuu
Matt, thanks so much for getting back to us and verifying so quickly. Super appreciate how seriously you guys are taking this. Hopefully the fix is not too hard to get sorted out
Matt, way to jump on the issue. Glad to have you onboard posting more and sharing tips and tricks.
Matt, a slightly related question: when turning surf off, would that not start adjusting your ballast settings to go to wakeboard instead of surf? That is one of the reasons I would leave port surf on between riders, but I always shut the engine off when switching riders.
Thanks Matt, glad you guys were able to duplicate the problem, and start working on solution, thanks again
You are correct. If you turned surf off and left key on, then it would try and adjust ballast to wakeboard settings. However, if you turn surf off, then turn key off, then it wouldn't have time to really even turn the ballast pump on. When key is off, it wouldn't try and adjust.Quote:
Originally Posted by moombahighrider
Also, after a little more testing I found that if you leave the key off long enough, WITH the surf switch still on port surf, then eventually it would get into a hard boot startup. On a hard boot, it would actually reset the plates, then see the input, then correct the issue. So, lets say you left the port side switch on. Rider number 1 is finished so you pick them up, turn key off. If that rider changes his mind and wants to ride or you turned the key off to give them instruction, then the glitch might happen. But if you turn key off, change riders and that takes a few minutes, then you would actually then see a hard boot and with a hard boot, the glitch would not happen. Which in turn makes the glitch even more random. Bottom line is we have a problem, thanks to your help we have found it, and I have asked the vendor to fast track the solution and I will try to make it as easy as possible to correct. In the mean time hopefully I have given some ideas of how to prevent the glitch from happening until we can get the solution.
Another fix around the glitch is you can bump the safety lanyard to turn key off without actually turning the display off. Again, most people probably didn't even realize you can do that, but with key on, you can push the red button of the safety lanyard at anytime and actually it will turn off ignition. However, it doesn't cycle display power which in turn doesn't send a random ground signal causing the glitch to start with. Hopefully we will have a solution in hand before many of you even get back to the water but that is just another tip if you didn't know that.
have done the safety switch , bumped it with my knee while towing a surfer, and it works , was a little funny at the time. Thanks again Matt.
I don't spend any time on other boat manufacturer's websites/discussion forums but I ask, what other boat company (or car company for that matter) has this kind of relationship with it's owners. This right here is an example of EXCELLENCE in customer satisfaction. With any complicated system like this, there is going to be some untested bugs. It's unfortunate in a product of this cost, but it does happen. It's not unique to Skier's Choice by any stretch of the imagination. Do you think for a second, MC, Malibu, Nautique have product developers engaged w/their customers at this level... and with this rapid of a response. Matt, whatever Rick is paying you is not enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by goose
Thanks Pound, everyone here at Skiers appreciates the kind words. We are just trying to do our best.
And that is why I choose to say with Skiers Choice!! My wife wanted to trade up from out 2016 Mojo to a G23 and I was tempted by the lifted skirt and perfumed inner thigh of a G23. I spent hours reading through this forum and other forums and no other company offer this kind of support. Bottom line Skiers Choice is killing the competition with customer service like this.
Slightly excited reading about the inner thigh!Quote:
Originally Posted by Prospersigman
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Lmfao!
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I think the AutoWake system is just trying to let everybody know they should ride GOOFY!!! [emoji3][emoji3]
So I am a nautique owner, we went and demoed a few different boats. The first boat we hopped in was a supra sa, I have to say that autowake is a sales persons best friend. I went wakeboarding and the wake was awesome, level and fun. Then my wife went surfing and the wake was great.
We then tried a tige and a centurion, the boats were nice but setting them up was a pain as the sales people didn't get it dialled in. The nautique dealer did get g23 set up.
I have to say this will sell more boats as it makes the sales guys job much easier well done supra/moomba
Random AutoWake Tip of the Day – Advanced Users (part 2 – Flow Plates)
The truth is when it comes to wakesurfing, it is pretty simple what effects the waves. Displacement is priority #1. It trumps everything. Displacement is only created by ballast and passengers. Without displacement, you don’t have a wave. You can adjust flow plates, wakeplates, suck gates, etc all you want, but if you don’t have displacement then you don’t have a wave and you definitely don’t have push. Once you have displacement, then it truly is the overall pitch and roll of the boat that shapes the wave. Roll has the most impact on shape, and Pitch has most impact on length. The flow plates and wakeplates DO affect roll and pitch, but NOT NEAR as much as displacement does. If you have 1000lbs of displacement equally distributed, you could adjust flow plates and wakeplate to get a wave, but if you have 3000lbs of displacement placed in exactly the right place, then you don’t need flow plates or wakeplates at all. 7 years ago wake shaping devices didn’t exist. People surfed by listing boats. Flow plates, wakeplates, Surf Gates, NSS, Gen 2’s were not developed to replace ballast systems. They were designed to allow users to surf easier with boats that were more equally weighted. In our case, we have located the plates and set factory defaults because that is what we found to work for most users. Again, as you become a more advanced user, then you can start experimenting with the plate locations and you can fine tune the waves even more.
So, the next step is to learn how the flow plates work. As I said before, any plate that pushes water has an opposite reaction on the boat. If a plate is deployed below the surface and pushes water down, then that creates actual lift on the boat. This is how the wakeplate and flow 2 plates work. Without getting too complicated, lets just say it creates lift and lift is actually the opposite force of displacement. When you surf left, the stbd actuator goes down moving water to a different location but also “rolls” the boat by lifting the stbd side. It is actually doing 2 things as it helps the “delayed convergence” of the water behind the boat creating the surf wave. Ok, so that is a lot of words, but what exactly does that look like? Sometime when you are on the water and NOT surfing, switch to manual mode and experiment with Flow plate location to see how that actually “looks” behind the boat. The best way to do that is with a slightly offset weighted boat. So manually fill the ballast in the boat to 100% on surf side, 80% on opposite side and at least 50% in the front. Have the passengers sit in the boat as evenly as possible. Now, without moving any passengers, turn cruise into manual mode and go between 10.8 to 11mph. When cruise is engaged, manually move the flow plates all the way to 0. You can move the plate on the controls screen with the up and down arrow. When flow plates are at 0, you will notice that the wave is not formed and unsurfable. Slowly add 5% plate at a time and watch how it changes the wave. You will probably notice that somewhere between 45-60% the wave will start to form. But don’t stop there. Keep adjusting all the way to 100%. As you continue to add plate, you will notice the wave “looks” like it is getting longer and possibly cleaner. But you will also notice that the wave will be getting smaller and eventually it will probably again become unsurfable as you get closer to 95-100%. The reason is because it will eventually create so much lift on the one side that it is really fighting the displacement that is trying to push the boat down. Do this on the port and stbd side and see how the prop rotation also affects how much plate is required on the port side relative to the stbd side. Now that you understand better how the flow plates actually work, then you can begin to understand when you might want to adjust them. My general rule of thumb is if I do NOT have a lot of displacement, then I can help the system gain a little more “PUSH” by actually running the flow plates a little higher than normal (Maybe in the 40-50 range). On the opposite side, if I DO have a lot of displacement, then I can actually run the plates a little lower (Maybe in the 75-85 range) to give the wave a little more length. If you like to have the majority of your passengers sit on the side that you are surfing, then you can also run less plate. This creates less roll by the plate and the offset weight creates the roll. If you have your passengers evenly weighted or even possibly a little to the wrong side, then you can slightly add more plate to clean up the wake without having AutoWake drain ballast to compensate. Again, as I said before, do NOT make these adjustments until you have first tried factory settings and experimented with flow plates and actually understand what you are adjusting. As with anything, all adjustments have tradeoffs. What might work for one application might make something else worse in a different application.
Ok, that is it for Advanced Users Part 2. Part 3 will be how and when to adjust wakeplate and also how and when to adjust pitch and roll for advanced users using high amounts of displacement.
This is awesome!
Same issues for me as well. I've only used Autowake a handful of times. Each time it drained port side. 17 Mojo.Quote:
Originally Posted by moombahighrider
For those keeping up with this issue on the glitch, I received new software today that has addressed the glitch, I tested it in the shop today and took it to the lake today and so far so good. I think we have fixed the glitch. We will continue to finish the rest of our standard testing, but we should have a fix that we can send out no later than the first of next week. Thanks again for helping us fix it. Maybe this glitch has been the issue for some of those not having the best results with AutoWake.
Stay tuned....
Awesome news! Thanks Matt
Matt,Quote:
Originally Posted by goose
Will the software update be for Moomba autowake only?
Not sure what you mean? The software I have tested is for Moomba. Looks like you have a Supra. Were you having a problem with it??Quote:
Originally Posted by Prospersigman
We had this happen too. I think if you swap from port to starboard or vice verses you need to turn auto wake off and the back on for it to be set for the new surf side.Quote:
Originally Posted by stevemarich
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Makes sense except on that issue we never did change anything , was surfing port side for 10 minutes or so and all was good , picked up a down rider never turned boat off or changed settings , got rider up and after going for 6 min or so the wave was diminished , the auto wake settings changed to the starboard settings with the switch still in surf port while driving, used it all day to today without it happening thoughQuote:
Originally Posted by rdlangston13
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This is my experience as well!Quote:
Originally Posted by stevemarich
Ok, for the glitch update, I ran the new 2018 software all weekend and I think the glitch is gone. As with any software, fixing one glitch might have created another "bug" somewhere else, but it seems to be solid to me. We still don't have the 2017 software done as we wanted to validate the 2018 first, but we should have that shortly. We are thinking we might try and put this software somewhere on our website or somewhere in a cloud based location so that owners can just download their latest software when ever they would like. Reflashing the software is very straight forward. You download the file, put it on a USB stick, put the USB stick in the USB port under the dash, and hold down the middle button while turning the key on. That puts it into bootloader mode and looks for the correct file type on the USB. If it is on there, then you select it and it reflashes the software. It is very important to note that when you reflash software, it resets your ballast timers. So you will have to go back and change those. It is recommended that you see where timers are before reflashing so that you know exactly where to set them to. It also resets flows plates and AutoWake settings back to default, but I recommend leaving them at default for most users anyways.
Again, for those not up to speed, the glitch was created because of the way we send the input signal to the PDM. To surf on port side, the switch actually sends a 12V positive signal to the PDM. To surf on stbd side, the switch actually sends a 12V negative signal to the PDM. What happened was if you turned key off with the switch in the surf port setting, sometimes based on exactly what turned off and when, the system would lose the ignition wire which generated the 12V positive signal. However, the now "neutral" signal would sometimes see ground and send an accidental 12V ground command to the PDM. That is why it changed plate locations and roll settings. Sometimes, it would do that, then on key on, it would see the now 12V positive signal and correct itself. But other times it wouldn't. Anyways, we were able to add delays that hopefully prevent that from happening and additional delays that go back and recheck every key cycle. So, even if it does send the wrong signal, then it does correct it and based on my testing, I couldn't get it to "glitch".
It is important to note that as with any electrical system, many factors can also contribute to "glitches" like this. Boats used in the water are NOT the optimum setup for proper ground planes. I am a mechanical engineer, so I am way outside my comfort zone talking electrical stuff, but lets just say that all grounds are NOT equal in a boat. In addition, loose connections at the battery, engine, bus bars, and in many areas can cause ground loops and noise. An electrical engineer reading this would probably laugh at my ignorance, but it is possible that this glitch could be more prevalent in some boats more than others. Regardless, hopefully we have found the fix and again hopefully this will improve performance for those such as TJC that might be seeing this glitch...