Seems like it'd be easy to use the rear factory bags instead of spending money on a couple new bags. they wouldn't fill up all the way of course... just a thought.Quote:
Originally Posted by jmvotto
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Seems like it'd be easy to use the rear factory bags instead of spending money on a couple new bags. they wouldn't fill up all the way of course... just a thought.Quote:
Originally Posted by jmvotto
Yes, sold my rear bags in 12
I'd be a little cautious with adding too much weight on top of the playpen seating. I found a support beam cracked underneath it - running 800 plus a short stocky guy up front and bouncing over waves didn't help.
yeah only ran it one day for a few hours...like the no bags visible look..Quote:
Originally Posted by bergermaister
We have a lot of this information outlined in our Resources section (albeit it can be somewhat difficult to find).
The end results, after doing this a few thousand times, is that aerator vs. impeller comes down the specific scenario. There are just too many variables, like budget, target performance, system configuration, etc. that come into play to make a single blanket statement about which is "best". We try to provide as much information as possible so people can make an informed decision about what is best for their application.
I know I'm a little late to the party, but I just wanted to provide some information that is specific to Moombas based on their factory ballast system:
1. A vented loop alone will not solve passive filling issues if you use the factory scupper thru-hull. You need to also remove the "scoop" portion of that fitting to prevent water from being driven into the intake when the boat is running through the water. Once that's done, a vented loop on the center locker will solve any passive filling/draining issues. For the rear bags, you only need to use check valves, as passive filling is not a symptom when bags are installed above the floor.
2. It's really not possible to link multiple bags together with aerator pumps and expect them to work correctly. Plan on having a dedicated fill/drain pump for each location to ensure everything works correctly.
Like Berg said, with a properly designed and installed system, you'll have just as much reliability out of aerator pumps as you would out of reversible pumps, it just takes a little more work to get there.
Thanks for the followup. Good to hear considering the pile of WM stuff that's sitting in my garage from the black friday sale! Spencer and I went over everything and he said the same as you.Quote:
Originally Posted by jasonwm
Hope to see you guys sometime on LBC! I'll be there for a week this summer.
Yes, definitely need to connect on the water this year so we can see the finished product.
Well, we dug into the ballast upgrade this weekend and I can now see why there's all the talk about reversible systems being easier than aerators.
I decided to forego using the OEM scupper intake for my new aerator pumps and went with 3 dedicated 1" thru-hulls for each of my new pumps. I am capping the OEM scupper intake and will reserve that for down the road when I will likely add a 4th pump that's a reversible to use for filling misc bags...
Trying to remove the scupper or trying to grind off the scupper fins was too much work. so I didn't go that route.
So I had to fit a thru hull, ball valve, and the pump itself for each of the 3 new pumps. Everything seemed pretty straightforward until I realized that not only did the stack of components need to fit in the bilge but I also needed clearance for the lever on the ball valves to be able to work AND I also needed to be able to spin on the pump without the output port hitting anything as I spun it on.
I ended up having to get pretty creative. One intake goes straight up. Another has an elbow and the pump is mounted horizontal. The last one ended up mounted at a 45 degree angle after the thru-hull. But I think it's going to work okay. Another thing we did was cut off a couple inches of the handles of the ball valves. That way we could mount the valves with the handles pointing either towards or away from the pump. it also gave us the flexibility to mount the valves so the handles rotated down to the floor if needed. We just took the cutoff wheel to the handles and it's amazing how much flexibility is added when those handles are trimmed down to size.
Here you can see a pic of the starboard side of the bilge. the empty ball valve is the factory ballast scupper that I won't be using at this time. The horizontal pump has the output cocked to about 1 or 2 o'clock because that's how we had to orient it to clear the vdrive.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-h...208_183412.jpg
This is the starboard side. It seemed to fit best a little behind the fresh water intake for the engine with a 45 degree elbow between the thru-hull and the ball valve. My Flush Pro takes up a lot of the space forward of the fresh water intake.
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-Z...208_183248.jpg
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-t...208_200709.jpg
An attempt at a view of it all:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-H...208_183435.jpg
Packing nut access? Once it starts to go your in that space a lot.
Another thing we did is used a step drill bit to cut the holes in the hull for the thru-hull fittings. I have to say that it worked great. The largest step was the 1 3/8 size that I needed, so it was easy to just drill until the whole bit was through.
Likewise, I'll be reusing the brackets that were used by the factory to hang the drain pumps. I just had to drill out the hole in the brackets to fit the thicker pumps. Again, the step bit was perfect for making the hole bigger.
http://www.toolfix.com.au/images/C/stepped%20drills.jpg
Can't tell you off the top of my head. both the starboard pumps are in front of the OEM ballast thru hull. and I think I'll still be able to get in there okay? I don't know. I guess I'll find out. the holes are drilled, not like I can turn back!Quote:
Originally Posted by parrothd
Looks good, I don't see any issues with priming based on your pump location and attitude.
Be careful reusing the factory drain pump configuration, that design introduces a lot of issues related to priming. We would much prefer having the pump connected directly to the bag, which will give you rock-solid drain performance.
I'm following this thread, I don't want to derail it, but am curious if what I am thinking would work. Right now I have the GIII system but with upgraded bags all running off the standard single pump and sprinkler valves.
Here's what I'm thinking, if I replace the sprinkler valves and single pump with three of these pumps; http://www.amazon.com/Attwood-Corpor...s=tsunami+pump
Can I use the single thru hull intake? do I need an intake for each pump?
At this point I am trying to piece this together as funds are available. Having a baby and building a house all while trying to make my GIII system better.
Thanks for you input
Is this what you suggest then? I am actually thinking about something similar to this but with the 1 1/8" hardware and the 1" hose instead of constricting myself back down to 3/4... Thoughts?Quote:
Originally Posted by jasonwm
http://www.wakemakers.com/media/exte...92/d/33007.jpg
http://www.wakemakers.com/media/exte...1-19.10.55.jpg
First off, I found out that there's two styles of Tsunami pumps. The ones on ebay and amazon are typically the ones that have the weird 1 1/8 thread that you can't find hardly anything to mate up with. The ones that wakemakers sells are a smidge more expensive, but they have the inlet that's 1" NPT and that's TOTALLY worth it because it'll screw directly into a 1" ball valve or an elbow or whatever typical plumbing stuff you're using from the thru hull.Quote:
Originally Posted by sivs1
What I found is that our Factory intake is a "scupper" and would have forced water into the pumps even when they were turned off.
I chose to go with dedicated thru-hulls for each of my 3 pumps. I could have possibly gone with fewer and a Tee, but I wanted to do it right from the start.
I am finding that had I gone with reversible, it would have most certainly made for an easier install. I'm still okay with my decision, because I do think I'll still have a faster system in the end, but the cost difference between reversible and aerators (if you're upgrading your hoses and everything) starts to narrow. especially when you have to make trips to the plumbing store for more pieces. The factory thru-hull with the scupper could be reused with a reversible pump.
The pumps off ebay and amazon with the 1 1/8 on the intake are fine for your drain pumps though.
I chose to have separate thru hulls for my drain and vent also, because it was cheaper to buy another thru-hull than to buy a Tee and a check valve.
Honestly it's hard to piece together an upgrade because I've found that if you simply upgrade to 3 pumps, you'll have to deal with the scupper forcing water through them when off (i.e. new thru hulls or grinding off the fins of the scupper) and you'll also have to deal with whether the 3/4" thru hull is really enough for 3 pumps at once. Then you're hooking 3/4" hose to the pumps... If you ever decide to go to larger diameter hose (1" or 1 1/8") then you're possibly having to replace some of the fittings you just bought.
I did contemplate going with 1" lines on the fill side and then 3/4 on the drain side, because then I could reuse a lot of my 3/4" bag fittings and stuff on the drain side and save a little bit of money that way... But in the end, I'm leaning towards going with bigger lines all around, even if it means I'm blowing a little more money on the front end.
The factory scooper can be removed a couple different ways. One way is to use piano wire to cut thru the adhesive. Another way, which I did, is to set up a 'puller' to pull the scooper free. I placed a piece of threaded rod thru the center of the scooper. In the bilge area, I placed a large washer and nut. On the bottom of the boat, I placed a spreader bar, washer and nut across two short pieces of wood, which sat on both sides of the scooper. Tightening the nut pulled the scooper towards the spreader bar, and broke it free from the adhesive.
Good to know. I'm just keeping mine to use for a future upgrade of adding a 4th pump that's a reversible as a pump to fill auxiliary bags...Quote:
Originally Posted by jstenger
Shortest length of hose there you can = best priming w/o issues.Quote:
Originally Posted by trayson
So is that a drain? Shouldn't it be on the low side? On the back side of the bag..
It's just a pic from wakemakers. Yes, the drain would obviously be at the stern of a bag in the rear lockers...Quote:
Originally Posted by parrothd
Read these two articles we have regarding upgrades to the 2002-2008 Gravity III system, I think they'll be beneficial for you:Quote:
Originally Posted by sivs1
1. 2002-2008 Moomba Gravity III Ballast Upgrades
2. Pre-09 Moomba Ballast Upgrade Options
We've been upgrading these boats since 2005, and have pioneered most of what you see people doing on the forum, so I'm completely confident saying we have the most knowledge and experience out there.
Yep, we even offer a 1" version: http://www.wakemakers.com/attwood-12...k-connect.htmlQuote:
Originally Posted by trayson
:)
Trayson is starting to experience why it makes sense to go with reversible pumps for a lot of people. You gain a dedicated vent/overflow and don't have to do ANY work for that functionality, and fitting everything in the boat is much easier.Quote:
Originally Posted by trayson
Careful here, the factory intake has screws that secure it in place to prevent it from rotating. If you remove that fitting and replace it with a standard mushroom intake you'll have four exposed holes in the hull that need to be dealt with. Ideally they should be filled and gelcoat matched, although we've had some customers just apply sealant to the screws and run them back in place, which would probably be fine.Quote:
Originally Posted by jstenger
Regardless, that's why we suggest cutting the scupper off, which has basically been accepted as the standard practice by everyone since we started recommending it.
When the boat is stationary in the water, the front of the bag actually is the lowest point. That's typically how the boat will be when you're trying to get the bags completely flat at the end of the day, and from a packaging standpoint it's much easier to put the pump there than it is between the bag and transom.Quote:
Originally Posted by parrothd
QUESTION:
There is factory wiring in the bilge for each of the (3) actuators on the sprinkler valves and also another wire that goes to the (1) factory fill pump.
I assume that things are wired from the factory so that the fill pump turns "on" with any of the 3 switches and the sprinkler valves turn "on" (open) with EACH of the 3 switches.
So I'm thinking as I rewire the factory wiring to my new 3 fill pumps that I'd simply use the sprinkler valve wiring to power each of the pumps, and the factory wiring for the OEM fill pump would go unused?
Does that sound right?
Oh, cool. Spencer couldn't find that SKU when I was on the phone with him this morning! Thanks for the link. (I was just going to make my own, but I'm down to buy yours if it saves me a buck or two, haha)Quote:
Originally Posted by jasonwm
I'll read those articles tonight.
Check the gauge of wire on the solenoids, I don't know what it is off the top of my head, but we don't suggest using it, so I'm guessing that's because it's relatively small. You need to be able to support 5A of current without significant V drop, so you can run the math on that based on the AWG you measure. If it's sufficient by all means go that route.Quote:
Originally Posted by trayson
Haha, I'll have to give Spence a hard time about that!Quote:
Originally Posted by trayson
Several folks on here have successfully run one Tsunami off the sprinkler lead with no problems.
Has any one calc'd the V drop? Just because the pump runs doesn't mean it's operating at maximum capacity.
What gauge wire is used for those lines? If it's 20AWG for example, you have about 0.033 ohm/m. Let's guess 3m of wire, so 0.1 ohm. I don't know how much current those draw at 14V but it's fused for 5A so we can calculate using that which will definitely be worst case. V=5*0.1 = 0.5V. So you would lose 0.5V based on those assumptions which probably isn't too bad of a deal.Quote:
Originally Posted by jasonwm
What gauge wires came on the pump pigtails? Why not keep it simple and match that. Bet it's at least 16ga.
Or you could steel some wiring out of an amp installation kit just to be safe.
16ga is 0.013 ohm/m. So the same calculation would result in a 0.2V drop.Quote:
Originally Posted by bergermaister
Once you get 3-4 beers into it does the size of the wire really matter?
Transon, I used 16 gage wire from lowes to create my Deutch connectors for my GIV on the OBV, also spliced wye connectors for dual rule fill pumps for the system. Worked without a problem.
Ps I have the schematic for the GIII wiring system at my office, pm me an email if you interested.
One of the things I'm thinking about is that I'll soon be running the 1" hose from the pump near the v-drive up under the floor to ultimately connect to the fill port on the front basement center bag.
I could feel that there's a zip tie securing the 3/4" hose to the wire loom for the ballast pumps. But it's just a few inches under the floor and I'll be able to cut that zip tie pretty easily. I'm wondering if there's likely to be more zip does further up under the floor that are going to be inaccessible.
I'm wondering if I'm ultimately going to need to pull the floor to run the 1" hose to the front/center locker.
If that's the case, how does the floor pull up? I'd assume it's screwed down but where the screws are under the carpet is a whole other question...
On my 2010 OBV, the screws were in each corner, and one was under the seat. You will have to feel for them thru the carpet.
I upgraded that hose to 1" and like you was hoping to do it without pulling the floor up but it was just a bit too tight and there were a few more zip ties under the floor. Pulling the floor up is easier than I thought. The hard part is simply finding the screws in the carpet. I used an awl and tap/pecked at the carpet until I heard a metallic clink identifying the screw. At least in the LSV there was a screw in each corner which was easy to find but the corner by the drivers seat was offset a bit and took a little bit of hunting to find (but it wasn't under the seat and very easy to get to).
Thanks for the tip. I'm thinking I might get stuck pulling the floor panels. I hope it ends up easy(ish).Quote:
Originally Posted by gregski
So, I jumped back into the project this weekend. I decided to tackle the drain line for the front center locker. However my subwoofer box was blocking the access to the pony wall that has the hole in it where the drain hose goes to the thru-hull. My plan was to pull a new 1" hose using the old 3/4" hose, then repurpose the 3/4" hose and thru-hull for a vent line and drill a new 1" thru-hull for the bigger drain hose.
My method for pulling the new hose with the old hose was actually spot on. I simply drilled 2 holes through the walls of each of the hoses, then inserted the 3/4" hose into the 1" hose and secured them together with a zip tie. I have to say that fishing that hose was a BI***. It sucked. I had my wife trying to feed it from the center locker and I was pulling from the Bow starboard locker. I ended up having to cram 1/2 my body into that locker. Getting both shoulders in there was not fun or easy, but I did it. Pulling and yanking with both hands I finally got the bigger hose through that hole and into the bow!
The thru hulls I got for draining were 1" black 90 degree elbows, so that it would be easier to make the hose loop up to the highest point of the gunwales for hopefully less passive draining. I put the new thru-hull next to the existing one.
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-Q...222_150010.jpg
I made my own "drain adapter" which was fine because I could customize the length of the hose and make it perfectly centered on the bag. I took a step drill bit and enlarged the hole in the factory pump bracket and reused that for mounting the new drain pump. It's a slick setup. I reused the Deustch connector from the old pump, making it plus and play. The 16 gauge wiring should be fine per the tables I've seen on voltage drop.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-0...222_123147.jpg
Next I removed the factory drain and fill lines for the rear lockers since I'm upgrading those to 1" hose. Turns out that the factory drain lines are going to be just about perfect length to criss cross and work as vent lines. I just ran the hoses along the top back walls of my lockers (up by where the ski pylon is).
I ran my fill lines from the bilge up the inner back wall of the locker and then up to the outside of the locker. I should have enough hose, and hopefully not too much to create too much head pressure.
The drain lines are going to be criss crossed also. They will go from the pump, up behind the engine (above the wakeplate fluid reservoir) and continue up along the gunwales to a thru hull I'll drill near the front of the lockers (by where the OEM drain thru hulls are. Again, I'm re-purposing the 3/4" factory drains to be vents and drilling new 1" drains with 1" 90 degree elbow thru-hull fittings. I still have to run the fill line for the front locker. I'm not looking forward to that and am leery that I'll have to pull the floor. We'll see. I also have to tighten down the fill pump thru-hulls and put the 5100 in there. I'll wait to do that until I have an assistant.
I also took a look at the carpeted "trim" on my lockers. With the factory trim, my 1100 bags aren't able to fill all the way towards the front end of the locker. the carpeted pieces are really constraining that end of the bag. I really see little purpose to having the pieces there other than cosmetics. I suppose it's POSSIBLE that they're adding some kind of lateral support, but I'm not sold on the necessity of them. Pretty sure I'll be taking them out.
Picture of carpeted trim piece:
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-j...222_141821.jpg
Picture with trim piece removed:
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-3...222_141852.jpg
These are the thru-hulls I went with for the drains.
http://pacificpowertraininc.com/wp-c...gree-bLACK.jpg
Since my goal was to have the hose loop up to be at the TOP of the gunwales to avoid passive draining, the 90 degree elbow allows me to point the hose UP. So I think it'll work well.
That is the most disturbing description I've ever seen on here...Quote:
Originally Posted by trayson
LMFAO!Quote:
Originally Posted by bergermaister
Almost in tears.
That carpeted wall you are thinking of leaving out, at least on the starboard side, is protection for your gas filler and vent lines from anything that gets stuffed into the rear compartment - not just cosmetic. May protect your bilge line as well if it is routed through there.
I'd strongly suggest putting it back in place and deal with a crumpled bag.