Thought I had a great idea, I was thinking making something that attaches to the steering wheel with leds to indicate the rudder orientation. But found this instead.
https://www.davisinstruments.com/pro...ion-indicator/
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Thought I had a great idea, I was thinking making something that attaches to the steering wheel with leds to indicate the rudder orientation. But found this instead.
https://www.davisinstruments.com/pro...ion-indicator/
Matt, I have a question about the AMP bar and the Draft sensor. Does the sensor show potential static or when under power. I have a 2018 Mojo Pro, we were out today and had the bags full 3000 lbs, 1200 lb lead and an additional 850 in passengers. Sometimes when I would look at the AMP bar it would be about 33% then others maxed out. Was sitting here thinking and not sure if it was only when static that it read 33% or so. Any info would be helpful.
The draft sensor only reads accurately when the boat is sitting still. As the boat moves, water actually drains out of the sensor due to venturi effect. The system stops reading at 4mph, but if you idle with a lot of weight, it can see the reduced level because it will idle less than 4mph. I would imagine your sensor showed full when sitting still and less when moving. Let me know if that isnt the case...Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgiaDoc2
The draft sensor is also intended to be a per boat sensor. Due to manufacturing tolerances, 2 mojos side by side might have slightly different readings. Thats why we dont display numbers. But the key is to understand where you are today, compared to other days on the same boat and how that translates to performance expectations for that day.
You didnt clarify, but i would assume with all that displacement, you had a great wave!! But if you go out tomorrow without the lead, you would see a lower amplitude reading AND a much smaller wave. Hope that explains it..
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Matt,
Yes sir we had a great wave! And have had a great wave every time out after reading all of your explanations of how the system worked.
Mark
Matt, I have another question. Its mostly about wave shape and how to tweak it if needed. The wave I am currently producing has a great amplitude, the part of the wave more proximal to the boat rolls over though instead of coming to the crest with a flatter sharper face, if that makes sense. Not sure how to describe it exactly. It has a good curl to it about half way back. Just some online reading talked about getting the wave to have a sharper more aggressive crest and I do not know first if that is important and second what to tweak on the boat to get that.
Mark
Do you want it steeper up front or a longer mellower wave? Put down the thesaurus and simplify your question.
And we are talking about a surf wave right?
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...c9c43d3b3b.jpg
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Steeper up front.
Lower your speed or reduce the surfplate deployment amount, I.e. less of it deployed.Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgiaDoc2
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It also depends on on your riding style and preference, steep can be harder to surf depending on your skill and what your trying to do. A really steep wave is generally really hard for beginners, they tend to go up the wave loose footing and face plant. I ride skim so I prefer a nice gradual, mellow wave. Provides more flats area for skim tricks.
Take a pic each time from the same angle and then see how it rides after a while you'll know what you like.
Thanks Stazi. That worked just perfectly. Decreased the surf plates by 15 each side and it did just what we wanted. Had a great wave, best yet.
Mark
Awesome!! [emoji41]Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgiaDoc2
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Matt,Quote:
Originally Posted by goose
I watched the AMP bar all weekend. Yesterday boat was weighted with the 3000 factory ballast and an additional 2250 in lead, ballast bags and people. The AMP bar both potential and actual were at the top, both static and moving at 11MPH. Today the boat was weighted exactly the same and the AMP bar was about at the bottom third both potential and actual both static and at speed 10MPH. I took pictures of the screen at each time that I could send if needed. Do I have a problem with my sensor?
Mark
Sorry about delay. Been busy trying to get boats built. hahaQuote:
Originally Posted by GeorgiaDoc2
Sounds like Stazi helped you on wake shape. I think it is in an earlier post, but once you get a lot of displacement, you can definitely fine tune shape by playing with Flow plate position. As you have seen, a little less flow % and the wave gets steeper close to the boat. A little more flow % and the wave gets mellow close to the boat. If you watch, it also affects roll and pitch. So, as you really fine tune it, you need to make sure you get them all how you like it. Factory settings will work for most people, but as some of the other guys mentioned, exactly how steep you like it is very personal.
As to the Amp bar, you can definitely email me pictures, but I think it is still a moving issue. I may not have explained it well enough, but the AMP bar stops reading at 4 mph AND will continue to display that level until you slow back down to less than 4mph. So, if the amp bar is at the top sitting still, then you start idling forward, the amp bar will slowly lower. Then once you get past 4 mph, it will display that until you slow down again. Keep in mind this is actually a complex system and there are filters and data always working in the background, so if you take off one time and get past 4 mph very quickly, then it might not see the reduced amp level. But if next time you take off a little slower, then it catches the lowered amplitude and displays it. Hope that makes sense. Again, the idea behind the amp display is to give you an idea BEFORE you take off of how much displacement you have that day. If you are getting different readings during the day as the boat moves, that is normal and you don't have an issue. If you are getting different results as the boat is sitting completely still with the same ballast and displacement, then yes there might be an issue. Let me know which of these it is.
Hope that helps!
Thank you very much for the information!
Long searched for it.
Watching the Supras and Moombas come down the exact same service lines really helps illustrate the difference between Moomba and other “budget” boats.
This might be off a little because this thread has been about '17 and' 18 autowake, but now that the '19s are officially out, what has improved? The website has a lot of marketing, and almost no explanation of what really is better. The price went up almost $500 for the autowake option from' 18 to '19 so does anyone know what autowake with multisensor technology is adding as compared to the' 18s?
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Draft sensor, amplitude, bag-full sensors with auto shut-off of pumps when filling, and I think “predictive state” which I am not in the know on.Quote:
Originally Posted by schwan
These are at least some changes I am aware of—not a complete list I am sure [emoji1360].
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Draft sensor and predictive state were new for '18. I think the bag sensors and maybe a tweak to the logic are the big changes for '19. I;m sure goose will chime in when he can. I could see the bag sensors alone being the $500 difference - well a market based price. No one else has that!Quote:
Originally Posted by dakota4ce
I was thinking it was the bag sensors, but not sure if there's anything more. I demoed a 19 max and I thought that it was a cool feature.
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There you go! The bag sensors are cool—they kill the pumps and re-hack the ballast percentage to 100%. You still have to have your timers close though, because empty relies on them.
Would be cool if the computer kept track of how long it took to fill and just did that in reverse for empty. Maybe that’s coming? But so far the bag sensors work perfectly.
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How do the bag sensors work if you piggyback another bag like an IBS?
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They are on the overflow, so it might be ok.
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In Makai an IBS would be awkward as heck IMHO. Plus I haven’t encountered a too little bow weight scenario yet. It’s got plenty.Quote:
Originally Posted by csm
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What the heck is predictive state and what does it actually do? How is it any different than activating a rider profile and waiting on the boat to do its thing? Is in only in use in auto wake? I have read through this thread more than once and still can't figure out what it does and how it helps me on the water.
Predicative state basically takes how you are sitting with people and ballast statically on the water and PREDICTS how the boat will sit dynamically and will adjust ballast before you start your pull so that you hit your pitch and roll targets.Quote:
Originally Posted by KnoxMojo
It works and it’s very cool.
Watch the wake 9 interview with goose.
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Predictive state and autowake 2.0 with 6 ballast pumps is basically instant perfect wave and wake every time no matter how people are situated in the boat.
If autowake doesn’t like how the boat is sitting dynamically and can’t adjust ballast to get where it wants to be, it will tell you where to move weight in the boat.
It messes with the guys who are manual set up pros, but really mimics what pros already do.
It makes a newb driver “good” out of the box while teaching what makes a good wave/wake.
It only makes a pro better.
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Hey guys. Sorry I was out last week on fall break with the kids.
I think all the questions have been answered but I will add a little just to be sure (because I like typing sooo much...haha)
As the other guys have said, predictive state works by "predicting" where the boat will be dynamically and moves the ballast when the boat is sitting still to try and get ballast correct before you ever take off. For example, if the Autowake is set to surf on the starboard side at 5 degrees to starboard, then based on our testing, we know the boat needs to be sitting close to 2.5 degrees to starboard so that once the boat gets going and flow plates are working, the boat should be close to 5 degrees. As I say all the time, the biggest confusion with surf boats these days are how passengers and gear affect displacement and roll. If all the passengers are sitting exactly level in the boat AND you have a cooler full of beer on the port side, then the boat is probably sitting at a roll TO the port side. It is almost impossible for a person to look at the boat and see a difference sitting still of 1 or 2 degrees. 1 or 2 degrees may not seem like much roll, but in the Surfing world, a half a degree of roll can be the difference in having a surf wave and NOT having a surf wave. So, before predictive state, with people sitting as described, the boat would take off, AutoWake would see that we are actually running at a 0 or 1 degree roll, and then it would have to drain ballast on the port side (assuming all ballast is full) to offset the passengers NOT sitting in the optimized spot. And this takes a while. While the ballast is moving, the rider is frustrated because the wave does not look good and I am sure everyone has been in this position. Then after a few minutes, the ballast has drained maybe 15-20% on the non surf side, the boat is sitting at proper roll and everything is relatively good.
The difference with predictive state is as soon as you turn the key on, AutoWake sees that you are sitting at the wrong roll. So, it starts draining on non surf side immediately. If you really want to be an expert driver, then the driver sees this and immediately knows that we should actually move passengers toward side with 100% ballast, moves a passenger to starboard side, predictive state shows you are good on roll, you take off, the wave is perfect and with passengers sitting in optimized locations, you also have max displacement. Lets say the driver doesn't look at the dash or no one wants to move. Again, no problem, while the rider is getting ready with jacket, rope, drinking his last sip of beverage, etc, the ballast is moving and now with 6 pumps, within a minute or so, predictive state has roll correct and as soon as you take off, the wave is correct.
Again, all that was in 2018, but if people were confused about how it works, hopefully that gives more clarity.
As to 2019, the biggest change was the ballast sensors. Again, I think that has been covered, but on most boats, the rear sensors are tubes that measures the actual level of the water. Currently, the software is setup so that when the bags are completely full in the rear, because the sensor sees it is full, then it turns off pumps and resets gauge to 100%. On some boats, the rear sensors and front sensors are flow sensors that measure when water starts to flow out the overflow. Those work similar in that when the ballast is full and flowing out, then it turns pump off and resets gauges so that you can not OVERFILL the ballast and cause other issues like busted bags or fittings. We do have several things in the works for the future, but we don't want to show our hand on all that yet. Believe it or not, sometimes our competitors go on this forum just to see if they can learn anything so not planning on giving them too much info. Just know that we are trying to keep pushing the envelope on technology that actually helps. While the other guys are working on louder stereos, fancy strobing RGB lights, and seats that are electric, cooled and heated, we are trying to keep focusing on actual performance related stuff. We assume that is why people are buying tow boats in the first place....
Ok, hope that helps. Got to get back to work... Hope we have a short winter. hahaha
Okay Goose, I've only had a couple opportunities to ride behind boats with Autowake. The most recent one was very disappointing. It was a stock 2018 Max with the G6 ballast. We had 3 adults, one kid and I was surfing. They set the autowake to 100% amplitude, 100% ballast and I surf regular. It was bad. We tried between 10 and 11mph and while the wave looked fine, I got dropped right off it almost instantly. I am a good surfer and have a really fast board. The wave had no little power that it was worse than my XLV with half the ballast of the Max. to even get a wave I could stay on (with effort) we had to drop the speed to around 9mph and I was almost eating the swim platform. I couldn't really kick my board out sideways because there'd be no way I could recover.
Needless to say I was incredibly disappointed. My friend said the tabs were deployed too far, but wouldn't the draft sensors be able to measure this and not have the tabs deploy so far it'd lift the stern and take all the push away? My XLV with 3000 pounds of ballast destroys the Max wave I was on.
Draft sensor only works while stationery. So if they thought 100% tab was the best and used that too, then it would explain the crappy wave. I have yet seen a need to ever use more than 65-70% surf tab for goofy side and 50-60% for natural foot. Any more and the wave may look nice and smooth but is as flat as a pancake and lacks push.Quote:
Originally Posted by trayson
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This is where AW gets it's bad name an uneducated people trying to use it. Come to UT and I'll show ya a MAX that you will be very happy with. A poorly setup Max sucks to see and hear, I've beat some big names with customer side by side with the Max wave.Quote:
Originally Posted by trayson
I figure it's something they were doing wrong. But they'd owned it a whole season already. So ?Quote:
Originally Posted by DFTR Josh
I don't blame them for setting it at 100% and 100%. Seems logical that you'd just MAX out the settings. But that's likely not the case based on what happened. At some point I'll go out again on one probably with the dealer. I was just confused and dumbfounded that we didn't get a good experience.
I agree with everything Stazi said. And as I said before, and supported by the length of this thread, even with AutoWake, we are still in an infancy state with many people in the surfing world.
Sorry you had a bad experience on the 2018 Max. But keep in mind that while AutoWake can help, it doesn't completely handicap you either. You can have AutoWake on and still really screw up the wave. This would be my original line of questions...Where did you have the flow plates set? Where did you have pitch and roll set? What was the amplitude display showing for displacement? Did they have GPS or paddlewheel and was the speedo accurate? Was the inclinometer calibrated correctly? I know that sounds like a lot of things that could be wrong, but truth is with any "smart" system, the system is only as good as the inputs and if everything is working properly.
Let me explain how things could go, even with AutoWake on. Lets say you move the flow plates to 90% for surfing on the port side for normal surfing. As I have explained before, the flow plates do roll the boat, but they also create lift which lowers pitch. Lets also assume that you moved the roll for the port surfing to 5 degrees instead of 3. For arguments sake, we will assume everything else is set properly and working properly. In this case, the higher % than normal flow plate not only creates a lot of roll, but also lowers pitch. Typically we use front ballast to lower pitch, so with the plates down, the only thing the system can do is DRAIN front ballast to maintain the same pitch. On the Max, the center bag is closer to center of the boat, so it takes a LOT of water to adjust pitch so in this case, the front ballast might have been less than 50%, and probably closer to 25%. The same goes for port surfing at 5 degrees. With only a few passengers in the boat, I assume 1 is driving, 1 is sitting in passenger side and the other would NOT make much of a difference in roll. So, the 90% plate will probably roll the boat about 3 degrees, but the rest of the roll will have to be made up by again DRAINING the non-surf side. Surfing at 3 degrees, the non surf side probably would not drain much, but to get the extra 2 degrees of roll would have to be made up by probably draining another 50% of the non surf side ballast. Again, I don't know these variables to be the case, but IF this happened, we are NO longer running 3000lbs of factory ballast. We would be running 100% on the surf side (1000lb), 50% on non surf side (500lb), and 25% on front (250lb). So, really we are now only running 1750lb of ballast. You didn't mention passengers, but I assume at least 1 is a female so 3 average adults and 1 child is probably about 500lbs in passengers.
To sum that up, we have 1750lb in ballast and 500lbs in passengers, for a total of 2250lbs, or 750lbs LESS than factory ballast. I say this all the time that there is NO replacement for displacement, so if this was the case, it wasn't AutoWake that was making the wave small, it would have been the lack of displacement that made the wave small. Again, I have no idea if this is close to what happened or not, but that is why I ask what did the amplitude display show? In this case, if we only had 2250lbs of ballast and passengers, then the displacement would have displayed approximately 40%. Again, if you missed it, the amplitude display on the Max is basically a chart of what the Max can handle. At the bottom of the scale is 0 lbs. The top of the scale is 5800lbs. 5800lbs is the combination of factory ballast and passenger capacity. As I have said before, to get a "good" surf wave, you really need to be at least at 70% on amplitude display. On the Max, that means you need to have 100% full ballast in all compartments AND at least 1000lbs of additional passengers or weight. 3 adults, 1 child and with wrong settings simply won't get you there. I know some people may disagree that factory ballast alone should be enough, but that just isn't the case for most people. Again, in your case, you said the wave "looked" good, but didn't have push. That tells me that AutoWake probably did the best it could to get the correct pitch and roll, you just didn't have the displacement. Did I mention how important displacement is????
As to comparisons to the XLV, that isn't really a fair comparison. Keep in mind, the XLV hull is substantially different than the max. It was a narrow hull design and had cutouts in the back compartments that narrowed the running surface even further. For surfing, it would allow the boat to roll pretty easy without the extra lift in the corners. You also said 3000lbs of ballast. Did you mean 3000lbs ballast and passengers, or 3000lbs of ballast plus passengers?? Also, are you just rolling the boat or adding a "suck" gate? See how all these variables add up? Also, the Max is substantially deeper and has a higher overall capacity. I looked it up and on the XLV, the factory ballast was 1450lbs and total passenger capacity was additional 2300lbs. So, total capacity on the XLV would have been 3750lbs. If you are including ballast and passengers in the 3000lb number, then you are actually at 80% on amplitude. So, I would imagine an XLV running at 80% amplitude would have a good wave. Especially if compared to a Max running at less than 50% amplitude.
Hope you don't take this the wrong way Trayson. I know you have been a long time poster on here and a very faithful Moomba owner. I appreciate all your feedback over the years and hope you don't feel like I am being defensive about your feedback. I am just trying to explain how even with AutoWake, it will not create the perfect wave if you don't everything set properly and most importantly if you don't enough displacement...
Goose,
Still kicking the 2017 Mojo. Last software update I did was the November 2017 version I believe.
Anything newer that is backward compatible?
Ken
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Actually.....
The 2019 software used in the Max and Helix, SHOULD be backward compatible for 2017 and 2018 model boats. However, the only difference really for 2019 is the addition of the ballast sensors. The software is the easy part, but without the sensors and wiring, you wouldn't notice a difference.
BUT, if you did want to add sensors (flow sensors only) to a 2017 or 2018, you should be able to contact your local dealer and they can contact our parts department about getting the parts necessary to do the install. I have NO idea what we would charge for that but we are working on a kit for those looking to upgrade...
Also to add don’t think that setting amplitude to 100% and then letting it automatically fill the ballast from empty will mean the bags are 100% completely filled. I have tried this and it stopped the bags before they were truly full.
I ALWAYS fill the ballast manually to the point of overflow, THEN turn on Autowake. This ensures I have max ballast. This issue is also probably worse on the boats with a draft sensor as the weight of the occupants makes the boat sit lower in the water and the Autowake could shut off the fill sequence before the bags are completely full, as it will think the boat is “sunk” enough.
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Goose, I'm sucking up the knowledge like a sponge! No offense taken. I was passenger on a boat that had been used all season so I was surprised they didn't have it dialed. And yes, everything you said makes sense and sheds WAY more light on it.Quote:
Originally Posted by goose
The only reason I brought up 3k in my XLV is because 3k of ballast seems to be the point at which most boats really start to be more enjoyable. I actually prefer my wave in my XLV to the same 3k in my buddy's G23. His is a little longer, but mine's bigger and cleaner. And if the ballast on the Max I was on was really that much less than 3k, it makes a ton more sense.
And my wife will appreciate the assumption that she weighs less than a typical guy! LOLOLOL
I do appreciate the speculation to attempt to figure out what was really happening. That's honestly why I posted it in the first place. I wasn't trying to "complain" rather I wanted to understand the WHY and figure out what should have taken place to have a better experience.
And I do appreciate that my XLV is way different. FWIW, I run maybe 500 to 600 starboard, the 1180 bag under the PLAYPEN (did I mention that I LOVE the Playpen bow?!?!?!?! hahahaha) and the rest of it's all along the port from tip to tail. And yeah, I run 3000 to 3300 pretty regularly only in ballast. So comparing a dialed XLV to a stock Max where they didn't have the settings optimal is a recipe for disaster.
That said, they put me on the wakeboard behind the Max and put it at 100% 100% and I hucked the first jump and it sent me into another zip code. I got bucked so high that I got off axis in the air and crashed so hard that I was begging them to drain ballast and reduce amp. The wakeboarding wake was insane. No complaints there except that I don't know if I am man enough to handle it Maxxed out!!!
Well, I am glad you didn't take my response the wrong way. You know how texts and emails can be taken the wrong way sometimes and I was trying to help explain, not defend so glad we are on the same page...Quote:
Originally Posted by trayson
As to your XLV, I loved that boat. That was one of my first boats where I was trying something different with running surfaces and some of those changes are definitely helping you now for surfing. I will be honest that I was originally hoping those changes were for wakeboarding and they did allow you to sink the boat with less ballast (that's why it had the notches) but it made the wakeboard wakes quite a bit steeper once you put a lot of weight in the boat. As I said before, now those notches allow you to sink the boat with less weight as it isn't fighting you with lifting surfaces. It also helps in surfing as the chines are not preventing you from rolling the boat. We have changed our running surfaces a LOT since the XLV, but the lifting surfaces on the sides of the chines are WAY different on the Max. That makes the Max a LOT more stable side to side and also makes the wakeboarding wakes have a smoother transition with a longer transition. If you wakeboard mainly behind the XLV, I can only imagine the wakes were a lot different. I can visualize how that probably looked and a lot of people get that feeling when you ride a fully weighted Max at wakeboarding. Wait till you get a set behind a Makai. The Makai is about 700 to 800lbs heavier than the Max and the ballast is an additional 1000lbs. So, it is like hitting that same Max with about 8 more passengers!! Keep in mind longer boats do require more ballast, but I think you get the point. Lets just say during the validation testing, we had the Makai totally loaded up and I can say it scared me. Maybe the fact that I am 43 now and more fragile had something to do with it, but I didn't want any of that wake haha
And don't get me started on the playpen. Playpen bows were here when I got here in 2000. I loved them because you could put sooo much ballast in the front and also use that area for storage. The bows were super strong and comfy and I loved the flip up seat backs. The problem was we were the only ones doing it at the time and every year we had so many non-owners complain about having to "walk across" the interior in the front. We eventually gave in to the negative feedback and got rid of them. Now, almost every boat is sold with bow fillers and other guys that used to sell against us having playpens, now make playpens!! hahaha Isn't that the way it goes. Sometimes the people that start something give up because they are the only one doing it. Only to find out later, they were actually ahead of the curve but gave up too soon.
Anyways, back to the point, give it another shot someday, but take this knowledge and help the people you go out with. Honestly, I have gotten on many peoples boats (that they thought were dialed in) and within just a few minutes had them making a wave they couldn't believe. With surfing, many people don't know what "good" really is because they haven't seen it, or even with AutoWake, don't trust the system and try to use someone else's "expert" opinion about how to make it work properly. I tell people all the time, experiment and learn. Fill the ballast all the way, then turn on AutoWake. Next time, turn on AutoWake and see what it does. Let AutoWake TEACH you how to be more experienced and a better driver. Let AutoWake TEACH you how moving passengers helps. Let AutoWake TEACH you how to optimize displacement. Let AutoWake TEACH you how displacement works and where the minimum level is you need. AutoWake is a very impressive system. But if you don't use it right or don't let it teach you, it can't do miracles....
good luck.
Autowake and the surf and wake presets have been nothing short of awesome in the 18SA.
For a newb to this sport driving has been super simple.
I fill ballast 100% pick the preset surf setting, my son jumps in and grabs the rope and the wave is great. Autowake adjusts it automatically and teaches you were to put passengers or extra ballast.
Without autowake as a newb, we would not have been surfing a good wave like we did the first time we tried.
OUTSTANDING system.
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Goose, feel free to come on over and dial in our SA anytime, hahaha..but really, we only live 2 exits away from the plant on the water.Quote:
Originally Posted by goose
Hey Goose
Will the new software for the 19 moombas work on the 18 supra's? Will the new ballast sensors work on a 2018 SL?
thanks