Hi, can anyone comment on the 3.0 Flow, specifically what effect does it have on the wave over the 2.0? Is it a feature worth paying for or more of a gimmick? Considering for a 2021 Craz. Thanks!
Printable View
Hi, can anyone comment on the 3.0 Flow, specifically what effect does it have on the wave over the 2.0? Is it a feature worth paying for or more of a gimmick? Considering for a 2021 Craz. Thanks!
Great question. I would love to see the difference in the wave from the 2.0 plates to he 3.0 plates.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
You would need a side-side comparison. I personally believe what makes by far the most difference in these boats is weight. If you're gonna spend any money on these boats for aftermarket wake improvement, put that money into upgraded ballast systems, like WM's bag busters for the Max, or extra lead. I think the 3.0 is an extra 1100$ on the Mojo. Put that money into Lead, you're gonna get far more results for your dollar that way.
A tab is a tab, it causes list mainly and some delayed convergence secondarily, the improvement is probably marginal by changing the tab shape.
You know what I would really consider spending money on, if there was an option to add surf gates IN ADDITION to the tabs. I wonder what the effect would be.
You would have the list from tab and full delayed convergence from gates, with enough weight, I would assume one should get significant enhancement of the wave length mostly. I don't use the ghetto gates or the mission gates because I don't like stuff that does not look OEM, plus I don't think those are large enough in surface area to produce enough lateral water divergence. I would like it if it was mounted cleanly from factory though.
The Wake9 crew has been riding some Moomba boats recently. They will have some videos on the setups and waves on the different models. Yesterday on social media I was looking at the Mondo wave. The Makai will be after that.
It does not answer you plate question, but wanted to throw that out there as some people have trouble with setup and what the boat can produce.
A lot of misconception about there about what tabs and gates do.
Yes 3.0 is worth it. It does not make a different shaped wave, or a larger wave.
It introduces more yaw to the hull as it travels through the water. The main effect is that your wave face will be clean with less roll and true level weighting. You can switch the wave side to side—without moving weight—and have a clean wave face on both sides.
That’s it. And it works.
As for the addition of gates to tabs as mentioned above, this is really kinda what 3.0 does. Introduces MORE yaw. Yaw creates the “delayed convergence” more than the tab alters water flow. If that makes any sense.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Is it possible to retrofit the 3.0 tabs and actuators on a 2.0 flow boat?
Negative—for the most part.Quote:
Originally Posted by haknslash
2021 with the larger screen option does have the proper PDM to do it. But I think that is the only one that does.
HOWEVER: I always thought it would be a piece of cake to do. Altering the plate looks easy as pie, and you really could install the second actuators on manual switches and put them down and up yourself. The same result would occur.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Or just bend that lip on a brake.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Staz—since the flow plates don’t raise up beyond parallel with the boat bottom when stowed, you need to be able to make them “flat” again to get out of the water flow. Otherwise it’s like having the center plate 100% down all the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stazi
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I agree that spending money on maxing out ballast is the first step. After that it's picking the options that give you the most fun on the water imo; shorter transitions and faster wave cleanup when swapping, seems like it would be really good. (All anecdotal evidence from researching/watching Moomba youtube videos all week.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Isaguel
Please accept my eyewitness accounts of it working. It does. Basically accomplishes what the swell 3.0 system accomplishes on the supra with a slightly different mechanical approachQuote:
Originally Posted by Hayden
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Thank you all for the answers.
As far as an OEM retrofit to 3.0 no you are not able to through the dealers. I already asked mine and they contacted SC and were told no. Dakota and I have discussed a few other way to do it lolQuote:
Originally Posted by haknslash
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
You could make it mechanical with a tie rod connected back up to the transom so as the plate goes down it pulls on a lever connected to the hinged portion of the plate to tip it down. Only down side doing it that way is that is would deploy in direct proportion to the amount of tab you use.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Hmmm, don't mean to drag this out or be argumentative but about your Yaw comment. It's an interesting effect I had not considered.Quote:
Originally Posted by dakota4ce
First, are you and engineer, hydraulics, boat designer? I truly am not being facetious, I honestly would like to know. I'm not, my deductions are based on loose research around forums and pure deductive reasoning. I'm not a hardheaded person and am always willing to learn.
But, you mention Yaw being provided by the 3.0 tab design cleaning the wave lip. I'm just trying to understand how that occurs. Again, likely b/c I'm an engineering layman.
This is the explanation I come up with. When surfing, what I have seen is that when the boat turns toward the side contralateral to the surf wave, even with mild turns, the wave lengthens and cleans up nicely. That would be equivalent to Yaw to the right if you're surfing regular. If the boat turns toward the surf side the wave shortens and gets all rough, so much that I have to surf closer to platform in order to not loose wave. That's equivalent to Yaw to left. I'm sure we're all familiar with this.
So, if the 3.0 tab increases Yaw, it would be to the side ipsilateral to the tab, it would in effect cause the bow to point slightly to the right when surfing regular, so right side Yaw, similar to having the boat turn right. Is this what you are referring to? Did I get this right?
I would think any tab deployed will cause some Yaw to the ipsilateral side. We see that when we're driving straight and we have to keep the boat from turning to the side of the deployed tab. That lip on the 3.0 makes that much difference, huh?. Ok, if that is the case, I'll buy it. No arguments here, but then you still have the question of what gets you more bang for buck, extra ballast or the extra Yaw you get from the 3.0's.
Listen man, If you have bottomless pockets, get it all. Don't leave anything behind, but, most frequently we must make decisions based on budgets and someone's gonna get cut.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Isaguel
Good points. Would be nice to have a clean wave face without a little bit of listing that I currently use. Throw in hydraulic steering and a stern thruster and I would never feel the need to upgrade.
PS. Ipsilateral, contralateral.... I'll believe you are not in engineering....but going to go with healthcare professional, haha
It’s all about the PDM. The older boats don’t have it.Quote:
Originally Posted by TXSurf4
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
What you state is correct. It creates adverse yaw, which in a simple way directs the rooster tail (which extends in the opposite direction of the hull direction through they water) away from the desired surf wave face. The turbulence of the rooster tail is what dirties the wave face.Quote:
Originally Posted by Isaguel
Yes there is drag created by the deployed plate that creates yaw, it just happens to not be quite enough in a lot of cases. The yaw plate gives it the extra bit of force needed.
The sole purpose is yaw generation exactly as you state, and that’s why it works. The supra Swell plates are mounted at an angle that generates this yaw inherently. Not sure why Supra and Moomba address this design need differently, but the net effect is the same.
I am not an engineer, just a very studious user with deep conversations with the engineering department at SC under my belt. Lots of chats. Awesome people.
Ballast is always priority number one. If you’re pinching pennies. I am not sure what the Flow3 option costs—as I am getting a Max on which it’s not offered. But for 2021, the Max has the brain to run it (7” screen required). Parts at retail to add it are in the $2600 range by loose calculations.
If I was optioning any of the other models that are 22’ and longer, Flow 3.0 is a no brainer for me. As you can imagine, more yaw force is needed for the longer hulls.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I caught that too—I sell total knee and hip replacements for a living. These are common speak for me too. [emoji1787]Quote:
Originally Posted by FamilyMan
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Damn, was really hoping 2021 Max would have Flow 3.0 as a standard option. Wondering why they'd tease you with such high potential in displacement (vs. Craz/Mojo/Kaiyen) but then limit some aspect of the surfing? I've attached a spec sheet I made for the 2020 models, where I compare all the publicized spec info. (I didn't include fuel weight but it only varies by about 200lbs from Helix to SupraSE.)Quote:
Originally Posted by dakota4ce
Model Ballast (std) Ballast (opt) Length Pass. Weight Boat Weight Boat + Pass. + Ballast Helix 2400 2800 20'5" 2000 4000 8800 Max 3200 4000 22'6" 2800 4500 11300 Craz 3000 22' 2400 4200 9600 Mojo 3000 23' 2500 4400 9900 Kaiyen 3700 21'5" 2100 4500 10300 Makai 4000 24'5" 2500 5200 11700 SupraSR 3300 20'11" 2200 4950 10450 SupraSA 3500 22'5" 2400 5800 11700 SupraSL 3500 23'5" 2500 5600 11600 SupraSE 4100 24'5" 2800 6150 13050
It’s not an ultimate potential limit, but it’s a user friendliness limit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hayden
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
To be clear, you're suggesting, they've not added Flow3 to Max because it adds another level of complexity and they want to keep it simple for their 2nd most affordable boat? Less things to worry about on screen?Quote:
Originally Posted by dakota4ce
When you look at total displacement of boat+pass.+ballast, Max is the odd one out there. All the others fall in line, more or less. More cash gets you more displacement (amongst other things). I've listed the table form lowest to highest priced MSRP.
I think they'd corner the market on people shopping 2021's who want, "the best surf wave/experience possible for the least amount of money", if they gave Max the Flow3 option.
If you can add the DIY option, I'd bet there's a lot of folks who would follow in your footsteps.
Yeah—I guess! For $700 I am adding ballast to my max to take it to 5300# of water. Pretty cheap. It will be dope even without Flow 3.
You do need the 7” screen to do the 3.0.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
You are correct. I guess these terms get used so often in my profession one assumes they’re more mainstream.Quote:
Originally Posted by FamilyMan
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I was riding the rails you were laying down. I actually enjoyed seeing those terms.Quote:
Originally Posted by Isaguel
New guy here, but wake9 just posted a video on how the difference between the two systems.
https://forum.moomba.com/showthread....the-2021-MakaiQuote:
Originally Posted by Bigswede
Anybody have any insight on why Supra and Moomba use different systems?
Flow 2.0 vs Swell 3.0, sure a lot less cost there without the bracketry for the swell setup, but adding a second set of actuators (along with the warranty issues that will bring) is surely pricier than the swell bracket.
I assume it's to keep the supra tech and wave a little advanced over the moomba?
I've wondered that as well. My conclusion was like yours, probably to keep Supra a step ahead of Moomba.
Discussing this with some internal folks on the Moomba side—-they think Flow is better. Not sure why the 2 different silos, but they sure don’t think Swell 3 > Flow 3 with regard to effectiveness.Quote:
Originally Posted by 996scott
In the end they both do the same thing.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
They both need to license GSA like Tige and MB have IMO. I'm probably going to retrofit GSA style tabs onto my swell system at some point.
this same thought went thru our conversations as we discussed a new boat purchase. frankly was the only negative that we could find on the moombas that felt like it was going to be a repair cost down the road. it also made me think about having too much adjustability in the wave.Quote:
Originally Posted by SONIC
as the boat captain, when I step into the water to surf, the easier the helm the better as seems my pulls are never as good as others.... sure some would agree.
and ya, sonic I thought the same thing but didn't want to be the first to type it on gsa :) those that have done side by side with gsa say it's the bomb on any boat.
Flow 3 is not adjustable at all—second actuator is automated.Quote:
Originally Posted by sandm
And GSA would be sweet, except all the factory software is incompatible due to different timing and actuator throw. You would have to be a relay wizard or go with a GSA controller.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
If the 2nd actuator is automated, why not split difference in degrees bent and put a bend on the flow 2.0 tabs with a break? Makes since to use the general degree the flow 3.0 use from 0-100 and place the medium degree on the flow surf 2.0 tab. No idea if this even makes since, but would be an interesting test. I wonder how much yaw a piece of 2" 90 degree angled metal screwed to the side of the tab would produce.
Except in the stowed position, the whole plate is basically parallel to the bottom of the boat. The second tab needs to be “retracted” to be up and out of the flow of water.Quote:
Originally Posted by jnr4817
I think a 90 of lip on the tab would do little, aside from cause some turbulence. Would be easy to try though.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
At full amplitude, the secondary tab is all the way down. Which is how most people surf. So any bend would have to be a full bend and thus cause issues when in the stowed position.
Swell avoids this by retracting to a position above parallel and has the angle built into the hinge.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
These tabs are also now being employed in auto leveling, which is where the flow tab design would be superior to the swell.
It’s all very interesting!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Factory software would work fine with gsa tabs. You set the deploy percentage, it just may be lower or higher than the stock tabs. You may or may not have to change the actuator mount position depending on the install.Quote:
Originally Posted by dakota4ce
I'll probably build my own this winter and see what happens.
The timing of actuator power pulse will be completely different. Moomba uses short throw 2.25” actuators, GSA uses long throw 4.25”Quote:
Originally Posted by SONIC
But go ahead and figure out how to make it work. You sound like you have it all figured out. Would love to use GSA tabs.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
And you absolutely have to change the mount position, as GSA needs 10 degrees down and 20 degrees up to work properly.
I have ridden in this rodeo. I put GSA on my Makai. Factory software and actuators aren’t compatible. If you used programmable relays maybe it would work, but then auto launch and auto level would be all jacked up.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk