Ethanol vs non-ethanol, problems?

I’ve recently realized that only one lake around me sells non-ethanol 89 fuel (4.70/gal). My next best option is to drive an hour for 93 non-ethanol (3.69/gal). After those two options I’m looking at using regular premium 93 pump gas. Which would be the most convenient option as the boat stays on the trailer. I’ve only ran non-ethanol this far 50ish hours on the boat so far.

Can someone explain what the real difference is if I’m using 93 non-ethanol vs 93 pump gas with ethanol?

Is there any problems that regular pump gas could cause over time?



2018 Moomba Craz

Besides the emission reduction hoax of ethanol. Ethanol has less BTU, so it packes less of a punch per combustion event. This means less mileage/hours per gal. So more fuel used to do the same amount of work = hoax.

Ethanol is more corrosive then pure gasoline and is more prone to attracting moisture. With newer boats, like in the past 20 years, the corrosion part should not be an issue. Ethanol tolerant parts have been in wide use for years. The later however, CAN be an issue for some that have long layups or dont put many hours on in a season.

Personally, I do not worry much about ethanol. Use a quality layup fuel additive, regular maintenance, and you should not ever see an issue from ethanol use. Most important to me, is making sure im using the proper octane (or higher if thats whats available) level required. Ill take ethanol over engine damage as a result of detonation from using too low of an octane. And yes, I know what a knock sensor is, what they are for and how they work. Id rather avoid a situation where its called into action, if I can avoid it by just using the proper octane to begin with.

MLA is 100% correct.

My boat calls for 89 octane e10

I personally use top tier mix on 87/93 to make 90 octane E10

I use startron fuel additive as well.


OP,

Indmar designed the raptors for E10, I believe they recommend running Lucas fuel treatment.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by larry_arizona

MLA is 100% correct.

My boat calls for 89 octane e10

I personally use top tier mix on 87/93 to make 90 octane E10

I use startron fuel additive as well.


OP,

Indmar designed the raptors for E10, I believe they recommend running Lucas fuel treatment.

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I believe my boat calls for the 89 or more + e10 as well, what is the e10 part?


2018 Moomba Craz

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mendenhall90

I believe my boat calls for the 89 or more + e10 as well, what is the e10 part?


2018 Moomba Craz

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E10 is up to 10% ethanol which is the standard for automotive fuels.

I have heard automotive fuels might start blending ethanol higher to 15%


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mendenhall90

I believe my boat calls for the 89 or more + e10 as well, what is the e10 part?


2018 Moomba Craz

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E = ethanol and the 10 = no more then 10% ethanol. So 89 oct or higher is safe, NO ethanol is a bonus.

There is a push to up to E15. Its all driven by $$$, by those that stand to profit from it.

Okay, so regular pump gas is probably has e10. Got it.

Thank you guys!


2018 Moomba Craz

In a boat, Ethanol is bad due to being hydroscopic (water absorbing), but this is why 10% is the limit.

For high performance use, E85 (up to 85% ethanol) is poor mans race gas at appx 105 octane.

You can make serious power running E85 especially in forced induction applications.

Just an awful idea in a boat that lives on the water.


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mendenhall90

Okay, so regular pump gas is probably has e10. Got it.

Thank you guys!


2018 Moomba Craz

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Its all E10 unless it states:

E85
E15
Non-Ethanol.

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For high performance use, E85 (up to 85% ethanol) is poor mans race gas at appx 105 octane.

You can make serious power running E85 especially in forced induction applications.

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I would clarify that this is when building an engine and writing a custom tune (if an ECM controlled engine) but would not be the results in a "street" engine thats designed for typical pump gas and E10. You would not want to run E85 unless you have a "flex fuel" vehicle and would not get a boost in performance running E85. Hell, I have a flex fuel tahoe and WILL NOT run E85. Corn is meant for whiskey not my gas tank.

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Originally Posted by MLA

I would clarify that this is when building an engine and writing a custom tune (if an ECM controlled engine) but would not be the results in a "street" engine thats designed for typical pump gas and E10. You would not want to run E85 unless you have a "flex fuel" vehicle and would not get a boost in performance running E85. Hell, I have a flex fuel tahoe and WILL NOT run E85. Corn is meant for whiskey not my gas tank.

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Very good points of clarification, you need to be tuned for E85 and it helps to have a flex fuel sensor.

GM started using hybrid flex fuel tunes on their full size trucks in 2014. What I mean is they started taking advantage of the extra hp by adding timing when the flex sensor reads more %alcohol.

The 5.3 V8 on 87 makes 355hp and 383 ft lbs. on full E85, GM rates power at 380hp and 417 ft.lbs.

The tune adjusts for any ratio of 87 and E85 based on % alcohol read by the flex sensor.

I ran E85 often in my 2015 Silverado, it lost 1.5 mpg on average but would stay in V4 mode longer due to the higher hp. Was still a cost save due to E85 being so cheap (90 cents at the time). But the power gain was very noticeable.


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lots of tuners were playing with e85 when I sold my old evo9. bottom line there's a lot of other parts than just software that have to be changed out to run 85 in a car- or any motorized vehicle for that matter. quite a bit of the fuel system had to be replaced along with adding larger injectors as 85 needs more fuel to burn properly. flip side is a lot of added horsepower.

to the OP, your engine so do what you like but if you don't have the 575 blown motor, if your manual calls for 89, you are pissing money away running 93. there is no advantage to running higher octane gas and in some cases it can not be good for the motor since the higher octane has a different burn rate that your ecu is not tuned to handle.
I have no issues running ethanol blended gas during the summer(these are nothing but slightly modified car engines) but if you leave the boat sitting idle for extended periods or it's the end of the season and time to lay up, find ethanol free gas or use some stabil or startron additive.

E85 needs injectors that are full stainless internals, ideally you want a flex fuel kit, there are many kits available for most GM performance cars after 2009. Also you run out of fuel pump pretty quick depending on how much HP you are at. The flex kit adds a alcohol sensor and ties into your PCM wireharness. Then your tuner can do two tunes, one for E85 and one for 93. Then the tune can be scaled between the two fuel extremes based on
%alcohol reading from the alcohol sensor.

6-8 degrees added timing is a ton of power and alcohol behaves like a liquid heat exchanger to cool intake temps on forced induction applications.

There is one HUGE problem with E85, the black goo of death......it’s real and not much you can do about it other than cleaning injectors and pulling pump to clean.

Alternating e85 and 93 helps, but eventually the goo will get ya.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...e0ad559154.jpg




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using ethanol even e-10 attracts moisture. I avoid it at all costs. If you have to use it i would suggest an additive to help with that. Boats run in wet environments and we don't need more moisture attracting substances. Is it safe to use? yes, but again i have heard from man mechanics that e-10 is good for about 30 days. Most of the time boats don't get used like cars where you are running thru the system on a daily basis.

And i would never store it with ethanol gas over the winter. I think the stuff is crap and always use 91 NON eth gas from my weed wacker all the way up to my boats and toys.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MLA

I would clarify that this is when building an engine and writing a custom tune (if an ECM controlled engine) but would not be the results in a "street" engine thats designed for typical pump gas and E10. You would not want to run E85 unless you have a "flex fuel" vehicle and would not get a boost in performance running E85. Hell, I have a flex fuel tahoe and WILL NOT run E85. Corn is meant for whiskey not my gas tank.

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Amen

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Lots good information guys. May I ask, if there's a boost in HP with E85. On the occasional longer boating trips. Would it be worth putting E85 in a flex fuel vehicle for tow? Talking like 2-3 total tanks!

Thanks

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everything I read on the ranger forums when I had my old flex fuel ranger said to either run e85 regularly or stay away from it. most that had 75k+ on their rides stated they had a lot of issues with the e85 picking up crap in the tank/lines and a clogged fuel filter within a day or 2 if they switched over.
google search the forums and you'll see the power pickup is not real noticable and the loss of fuel economy can be up to 20%.
I chose not to run e85 in the ranger for this reason.

now if I would have kept my old evo9 I would have already converted over to e85 as there's lots of reasons to switch over if you're running a boosted motor and can get it tuned/replace the fuel parts to take advantage of the energy in the fuel. and in that car who cares about fuel mileage :)

I agree on no power gain and lost MPG on the early flex fuel vehicles in the early 2000’s

GM finally hybrid tuned for them in 2014+ flex fuel trucks. $100 option and the power is up 30hp and 40 ftlbs and it’s very noticeable, mpg loss was appx 1.5 mpg but worth it because when I had the truck, it was nearly $1 per gallon cheaper to run E85, so it was a significant cost save despite less mpg.


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Surf Wagon

Lots good information guys. May I ask, if there's a boost in HP with E85. On the occasional longer boating trips. Would it be worth putting E85 in a flex fuel vehicle for tow? Talking like 2-3 total tanks!

Thanks

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IF the truck is tuned for it, yes. 2014+GM trucks are the only ones currently taking advantage of the higher octane and adding timing for it.

Just make sure you have the flex option, easiest way to tell is yellow gas cap.


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by larry_arizona

IF the truck is tuned for it, yes. 2014+GM trucks are the only ones currently taking advantage of the higher octane and adding timing for it.

Just make sure you have the flex option, easiest way to tell is yellow gas cap.


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Yes I have a 2014+GM. My local trips are fairly short but a couple times a season we'll travel around 3-4 hours. So just curious how much better it might tow.

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Although non-ethanol, regardless of the octane rating will provide substantially better fuels mileage (octane rating has nothing to do with power) most of the non-ethanol fuels being sold do not have a detergent package. Over time this will produce carbon build up on pistons and will restrict fuel injectors. So besides paying more for non-ethanol fuel; you’ll need to kick in for a good fuel detergent.

If you do use non-ethanol fuel in your boat, add Techron or other detergent package at every fill up.


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Surf Wagon

Yes I have a 2014+GM. My local trips are fairly short but a couple times a season we'll travel around 3-4 hours. So just curious how much better it might tow.

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Does your 14 have the flex option?


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Originally Posted by Jeepers

Although non-ethanol, regardless of the octane rating will provide substantially better fuels mileage (octane rating has nothing to do with power) most of the non-ethanol fuels being sold do not have a detergent package. Over time this will produce carbon build up on pistons and will restrict fuel injectors. So besides paying more for non-ethanol fuel; you’ll need to kick in for a good fuel detergent.

If you do use non-ethanol fuel in your boat, add Techron or other detergent package at every fill up.


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Octane rating CAN absolutely has something to do with power IF tuned to take advantage of it.

General rule of thumb, for each point of octane, you can add appx 1 degree of timing which on a V8 engine is appx 8-10 additional HP.

Using 93 octane in an engine tuned for 87 will gain you nothing.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by larry_arizona

Does your 14 have the flex option?


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Yes

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by larry_arizona

Using 93 octane in an engine tuned for 87 will gain you nothing.

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except an empty pocketbook :)
that's the point to the OP. use the lowest grade fuel you can use per the engine manufacturer.

my thoughts have always been use 89 as that's what the manuf. of my last 2 boats called for and since these are car motors using plastic tanks no reason to worry about ethanol or non ethanol UNLESS it's the end of the season and going to winterize. then I try to find a non-ethanol source and don't care if it's 89 or premium(91-94). the last couple of seasons tho I have not been able to find it within a reasonable distance so I filled up to the brim and used the suggested dose of sta-bil and have not had any starting issues. this living in wisconsin where I would typically winterize in mid september and lucky to get it out again by may.

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Octane rating CAN absolutely has something to do with power IF tuned to take advantage of it.

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In the context of this thread, a boat using an OEM ECM, there is no power benefit to running a higher then recommended octane.

Now, in the custom world, there is a benefit to using higher octane. But in reality, the BTU from different pump octanes is about all the same. The benefit comes from the proper ignition point, as the higher octane resists self-ignition due to the added heat of a higher compression engine.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Surf Wagon

Yes

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Then you should be impressed with with 30hp/40ft lbs.


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jeepers

Although non-ethanol, regardless of the octane rating will provide substantially better fuels mileage (octane rating has nothing to do with power) most of the non-ethanol fuels being sold do not have a detergent package. Over time this will produce carbon build up on pistons and will restrict fuel injectors. So besides paying more for non-ethanol fuel; you’ll need to kick in for a good fuel detergent.

If you do use non-ethanol fuel in your boat, add Techron or other detergent package at every fill up.


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All pump gas is required to have detergent. I am not sure where you got this from. At least in the midwest. They ALL have detergent packages. Its required.

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Originally Posted by jason1973

All pump gas is required to have detergent. I am not sure where you got this from. At least in the midwest. They ALL have detergent packages. Its required.

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Not necessarily there’s a reason why Walmart and Kroger fuel is cheap because it’s crap and bottom of the barrel. Most manufactures will give you a list of top tier gasoline manufacturers they recommend especially if you are running a direct injected engine. Firm believer in shell and Exxon and chevron etc, I’ve seen what cheap fuels do too engines https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...c016da1c91.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...49c79e0197.jpg


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The EPA does mandate a basic additives package for every gallon of road fuel that goes into the pipelines. The more name brand gas companies do add some proprietary additives to the gas once they draw it from the pipeline though. IMO, this is manly marketing.

I fuel up at where ever the gas is the cheapest. My 17 year old SUV with 280K averaged 16+ MPG from new up to the day it died. Zero fuel problems.

edo- texas may be different due to the location to refineries but out west in Boise, there was only 1 main pipeline into the valley and all but 1 of the major brands buys from the same source out of salt lake city(iirc flying J travel center buys from a different refinery in slc and trucks it up). each manufacturer then adds their own special mixture to make it unique. chevron could get the "bottom of the barrel" and then add from there. stations are selling the same basic gas and adding what they want to it but in the end costco, walmart, chevron, insert any name here- are all coming from the same holding tanks.
I would be surprised if it's much different around other parts of the US. with razor-thin margins buying in bulk from wherever and adding your own additives makes business sense.

https://www.idahostatesman.com/news/...e40864992.html

not sure about requirements in the midwest with detergent being required but would not surprise me. gasoline in green bay was price controlled in that you could not sell below cost so everyone sold for the same amount. no reason to not add it as margins were the same for everyone.

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I’m just saying there is a big difference between top tier fuel and regular there’s nothing wrong with running cheap fuel on a motor that uses good ol sequential or TB injection. But for motors with direct injection I would only run a top tier brand even if it is 87 octane seen plenty of motors carbon up with 30 40k miles. Vw actually made us add a fuel additive that would help break the carbon down if it had cold start misfires. Lexus was replacing pistons. Since carbon is a by product of combustion and with direct injection you don’t have the injector cleaning the valve a good detergent is a must

We had a diesel that got bad fuel at shell and blew up the injection pump and sent metal through the entire system shell cut a check for 10k for the repairs also another reason I’ll only get fuel at a reputable place.


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since we're on a boating forum, I'll bring up the raptor motors are not gdi so good to go :)

Just because a station does not say "top tier" does not mean they are selling poor gas. costco in boise for a long time bought their gas from the chevron wholesaler. they couldn't advertise as chevron fuel as they are not part of the network but a few shops did testing and found it to be the same exact formula coming out of the chevron station across the street for $.75 more/gallon.

I'm with MLA. buy it cheap unless it's layup time.

on gdi. it's how auto makers found a quick way to get around gov't fuel economy requirements and not having fully tested the technology problems look to be coming to light. calling out to use top tier gasoline is a way to get them out of any accountability to repairs and push ownership of any breakdowns onto the general public. I would bet a beer that there are lots of examples like you list above where engines have issues from using top tier and similarly 100k engines ran on "poor grade" gas.

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Originally Posted by sandm

since we're on a boating forum, I'll bring up the raptor motors are not gdi so good to go :)

Just because a station does not say "top tier" does not mean they are selling poor gas. costco in boise for a long time bought their gas from the chevron wholesaler. they couldn't advertise as chevron fuel as they are not part of the network but a few shops did testing and found it to be the same exact formula coming out of the chevron station across the street for $.75 more/gallon.

I'm with MLA. buy it cheap unless it's layup time.

on gdi. it's how auto makers found a quick way to get around gov't fuel economy requirements and not having fully tested the technology problems look to be coming to light. calling out to use top tier gasoline is a way to get them out of any accountability to repairs and push ownership of any breakdowns onto the general public. I would bet a beer that there are lots of examples like you list above where engines have issues from using top tier and similarly 100k engines ran on "poor grade" gas.

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For the record, Costco gas is top tier.

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Originally Posted by larry_arizona

For the record, Costco gas is top tier.

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good to know but for a long time they didn't or couldn't advertise that. looks like around 2014 they received the designator.

here's the latest list of top tier. what I find interesting is this seems to cover the majority of the stations peddling gas today. doing some quick looking top tier is really a business that these retailers below "license" from. they are required to meet a certain detergent rate but can go up to 3x that required rate indicating that you might think chevron is the best but in reality quik trip might be selling a better blend. both are able to advertise the same. wonder how many other stations that are not top tier "certified" are really selling good gas but not willing to pay for the licensing fees since it's coming from the same wholesaler.

Top Tier Retailers
76, Aloha Petroleum, Amoco, ARCO, Beacon, BP, Breakaway, Break Time, Cenex, Chevron, CITGO, Conoco, Costco, CountryMark, Diamond Shamrock, Entec, Esso, Express Mart, Exxon, Fast Fuel, HFN, Hele, Holiday, Kwik Star, Irving, Kirkland Signature, Kwik Star, Kwik Trip, Marathon, Metro Petro, MFA, Mobil, Ohana Fuels, Phillips 66, PUMA, QT, Quik Trip, Road Ranger, Shamrock, Shell, Sinclair, Sunoco, SuperAmerica, SuperFuels, Texaco, Valero, Value America, Wow, and Win Win.

I monitor knock retard on my fun car, I see no knock with Costco 93 and 2-4 deg KR with Sams 93.

It makes a difference.


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by larry_arizona

I monitor knock retard on my fun car, I see no knock with Costco 93 and 2-4 deg KR with Sams 93.

It makes a difference.


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And what fun car would that be Larry? Oh I bet I can guess :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by asteggall

And what fun car would that be Larry? Oh I bet I can guess :rolleyes:

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Hey buddy, WELCOME!!


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Octane comes into play in two and only two circumstances.

1. Elevation. Your engine needs less octane at higher elevations due to lower compression at high altitudes.

2. Engine compression. The higher compression your engine, the higher octane is needed to decrease the chance of pre-ignition. (Think Diesel. Diesel fuel combusts due to compression).

You can only take advantage of the higher octane if you increase the engine’s compression. Tuning won’t do jack crap and anyone who says otherwise you should ignore. They have no fricken clue what they’re talking about.

Just use Indmar’s recommended octane level for your engine and purchase top tier detergent gasoline. Indmar specifies a specific octane rating for your engines compression ratio. Make sure to use Stabil Marine 360 fuel stabilizer at every fill up and completely fill your tank before storing for any length of time.

The only potential issue you may see with ethanol gas is water accumulation in the fuel tank. Stabil Marine will eliminate this issue.

Don’t get me wrong; Ethanol blended fuels are giant scam! Besides decreasing fuel economy it was a mega welfare program for corn ethanol producers and does absolutely nothing to reduce emissions. You must also take into account that the increased fuel economy of non-ethanol gasoline does not offset the increased price per gallon and lack of detergents. Even though the gas station sign says: Chevron, Conoco, Texaco... the non-ethanol fuel the station is selling is not from that brand. They buy the non-ethanol from tiny local fuel distributors and there are no detergents. These detergents are vital to the longevity of your engine.

Ultimately it’s your boat and your decision. The individuals giving you miss information don’t have to live with the consequences.

Octane is simply the measure of how much compression a fuel can withstand before igniting. That’s it! There’s nothing magic about it! In fact!; The only reason Lead was ever added to gasoline was to increase the octane rating to auto manufacturers specifications with the introduction of higher compression engines.

Raptor compression ratio: 9.8:1
325 Assault compression ratio: 9.4:1

These are not high compression engines!

Comparison

HEMI 5.7L compression ratio: 10.5:1
HEMI 6.4L compression ratio: 10.9:1
2019 GM 5.3L compression ratio: 11.0:1

I hope this helps and I hope I didn’t hurt anyone’s feelings. That’s not my intention. My only intention is to provide the truth so the individual asking an honest question can make an honest decision for themselves.

It’s difficult to navigate through the abundance of hype and marketing. Most mechanics don’t even understand this stuff and can caught up in the misinformation.

Good luck!

“That’s all I gotta say about that!”






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