Additional Wakeplates/Trim Tabs??

[Double D]

Hi all: Stopped in at a boat dealership and they had just recieved a 2010 Mastercraft X-2.

I looked below the swimplatform and not only did it have the wakeplate, but it had separate trim tabs or additional wakeplates at each corner of the transom. Almost looked like "Smartabs", but they were hydraulic. Salesman says it is for surfing so they don't have to have such big bags in the boat leaving for more storage.

The is the first I have seen this. So the boat had 2 gravity bags on each side, the wakeplate behind the prop and then smaller individual wake plates on each corner of the transom.

Does everyone do this or is this something new.

Sorry, didn't mean to bring the "M" word back up again, but this was new to me. Wondering if this is new technology and if we will see this on the Moombas.

[you da man]

Sanger has 3 wakeplates on it's 237 model...it's called the "surf series". I hear it does help make the boat list a little to fine tune the wake but it doesn't substitute for alot of ballast. I would like to have them on my XLV

[moombadaze]

They are actually nothing more than trim tabs, and can be added to just about any boat. Just waiting for someone to try them out and report.

[maxpower220]

This is the slowest evolution of a sport that I have ever seen.

Most of the boat makers (MC, Bu, CC, SC) were builders of ski boats. Those boats have many rules to make them available to compete. Static hulls is one of those rule. Because they are looking to multi-use platforms, they are stuck with certain ideas that are slowing down any progress for wake boats. Making a ski boat and then adding ballast and graphics and then calling is a wake boat has been the norm for a while.
It's too bad that they don't think outside of the box and build hulls for the purpose of the boat. Yes I realize that they do this with the 22'+ boats. Also, a none static boat could probably make a better ski boat for setting new records in skiing.

Sorry for the rant, trim tabs should have evolved from Tige in 1996. Over 12 years to add more than one tab, that's just too long.

[you da man]

This is the slowest evolution of a sport that I have ever seen.

Most of the boat makers (MC, Bu, CC, SC) were builders of ski boats. Those boats have many rules to make them available to compete. Static hulls is one of those rule. Because they are looking to multi-use platforms, they are stuck with certain ideas that are slowing down any progress for wake boats. Making a ski boat and then adding ballast and graphics and then calling is a wake boat has been the norm for a while.
It's too bad that they don't think outside of the box and build hulls for the purpose of the boat. Yes I realize that they do this with the 22'+ boats. Also, a none static boat could probably make a better ski boat for setting new records in skiing.

Sorry for the rant, trim tabs should have evolved from Tige in 1996. Over 12 years to add more than one tab, that's just too long.

Kinda like dual rudders on V-drives. It would definately help with steering these heavy boats at idle speed and backing up. Even fully loaded the Epic steered very well and backed up almost like an outboard

[Razzman]

The reason for that Max is there is no practical application for more than one tab on a wakeboat until recently with the advent of wakesurfing, and even then it's still not a proven. Remember that dual or multiple tabs have a purpose on an I/O or outboard but not so on a wakeboat.

Think about it, an I/O hull is a deep V configuration bow to stern and benefits from them, hence the purpose of the tabs for trim. A ski/wake hull is generally semi-V to deep V in the bow portion and semi flat to flat at the stern region. It is this way for a reason, not just a ski boat holdover. How many of you have had or seen an I/O try to make a good wakeboard wake? They can get decent with a lot of additional weight, but it's hard because of hull shape, it's against physics to sink a deep V enough to do it.

As far as multiple tabs on a wakeboat i could see where they could assist wakeboarding to help balance weight and shape the wake a bit side to side, but that's an awefull expense add-on for something you do anyway. As far as the surfing app it does probably help a bit, how much is hard to say but Sanger only has it on the V237 which is a big heavy boat. Notice you don't see it on the V215 which profile wise is almost identical to our LSV's.

[Razzman]

Tabs won't assist in the steering of an inboard one bit at idle. If anything though it might actually hinder it at speed depending on hull design and placement.

The biggest reason Epic came up with that dual-rudder design was because they are the only boat with up to 4,000lbs of factory ballast. It comes with the 8.1L engine and needs every bit of it to move that much weight.

[Jeff W]

Tabs won't assist in the steering of an inboard one bit at idle. If anything though it might actually hinder it at speed depending on hull design and placement.

The biggest reason Epic came up with that dual-rudder design was because they are the only boat with up to 4,000lbs of factory ballast. It comes with the 8.1L engine and needs every bit of it to move that much weight.

Razz - I don't think he meant tabs would help the steering. Just the dual rudders.

Which I agree with.

[sandm]

until proven wrong, I still think there's no replacement for displacement(from the car days). you still need weight to get a good wake. the trimtabs should help clean up the face of the surfwake, but I would be surprised if they can take a 3ft wake and make it 4ft.
I'd sure like to be proven wrong, as trimtabs would be a relatively cheap addition to a boat, but I only see them as cleaning it up.

[you da man]

until proven wrong, I still think there's no replacement for displacement(from the car days). you still need weight to get a good wake. the trimtabs should help clean up the face of the surfwake, but I would be surprised if they can take a 3ft wake and make it 4ft.
I'd sure like to be proven wrong, as trimtabs would be a relatively cheap addition to a boat, but I only see them as cleaning it up.

Without having to tell people where to sit and possibly having those small 150lb cube bags to shift around and/or take up space

[Double D]

Here is the thing I don't understand. Shouldn't the trim tabs improve the ski-ability of the boat? I'm no engineer so anybody jump in here to help me with my thinking, but if you take a Bayliner and add smarttabs the wake actually decreases. Ask any boat owner out there how much their wakeboarding kids liked it when Dad put smarttabs on the boat. none.

So I am unclear how it would help on this X-2.

I apologize as well. I don't mean to put "M" issues on the Moomba website, but when the salesman said "first $82,000 takes her home", I laughed and said "I plan to buy a Moomba".

Plus I am wondering if this is something we will end up seeing on Moomba boats.

[Razzman]

Just to clarify here, the tabs are not meant for wakeboarding, they are meant for surfing only in the wakeboat application. At wakeboarding speeds they would ruin the wake. Look the stern of your Moombas and you'll see a lack of smooth flat surface to mount them. You have concave surfaces and strakes in the way, not going to work. A hull has to be designed specifically for them to work correctly for the intended purpose. Our boats are designed to create a nice wake with or without weight.

Now as far as Mastercraft's X-2 (or their other V's) here's their verbage right from their web site;

4.The X-2 has an one of the best engineered wakes for versatility making this boat optimal for the family that skis, wakeboards, surfs, tubes and cruises. Add in the optional surf tabs to help create a massive, tuned surf wake and take Hawaii off your surf to-do list.

So you can see it's not meant for wakeboarding, weight distribution or anything other than surfing. Personally i really don't see how they would help unless they can be independantly adjusted and if that's the case then you'd have three plates to adjust!

[Razzman]

Here is the thing I don't understand. Shouldn't the trim tabs improve the ski-ability of the boat? I'm no engineer so anybody jump in here to help me with my thinking, but if you take a Bayliner and add smarttabs the wake actually decreases. Ask any boat owner out there how much their wakeboarding kids liked it when Dad put smarttabs on the boat. none.

So I am unclear how it would help on this X-2.

I apologize as well. I don't mean to put "M" issues on the Moomba website, but when the salesman said "first $82,000 takes her home", I laughed and said "I plan to buy a Moomba".

Plus I am wondering if this is something we will end up seeing on Moomba boats.

Shouldn't the trim tabs improve the ski-ability of the boat?

Not neccessarily, again it depends on the boat & hulls intended purpose. In some cases it can actually hurt the performance. One of the original purposes of tabs was stabilize high speed race boats back in the fifties, Sanger btw was one of the pioneers of this idea. It then moved into the recreational boaters world as they assisted the running attitude of outboards and I/O's. Offshore race boats use massive tabs and plates to keep them in the water.

Plus I am wondering if this is something we will end up seeing on Moomba boats

I sure hope not as a tournement inboard boat doesn't need them. Now let's not confuse tabs with our wakeplates. Yes the principle is the same but in the single small plate application it helps shape the wake, adjust boat attitude and help shape your surf wave all in one easy & simple design. Why would anyone want to add two more tabs that you need to mess with? You ask me it's a gimmick plain and simple, Sanger did so others will.

[snowboardcorey]

Some of the trim tabs are very helpful. A center mounted tab is great for tweaking a wake for either skiing or boarding. While its never going to make a V-drive ski like a tournament inboard it can help squash the wake a little and/or change the shape a bit to make it more condusive to skiing. The center tab creates lift, most tournament inboards create lift via a "hook" in the hull, lifting strakes and the like.

The side mounted tabs I have never used. I suspect they will help shape the wake but like a center mounted tab they are not going to increase the wake size. More than likely they will just give you the ability to change the face of the wake to make it better for surfing. They should also help tweak the wake easier than redisributing people.

Right now we are trying to work on a retro fit kit for older boats. One of the hurdles we are encountering is that Lenco (tab maker) feels side mounted tabs are unsafe at speeds over 30 mph. The current M brand with side tabs has software that retracts the tabs at 30mph. We're not sure how much testing was put into this to find out why 30 mph was the magic number but right now thats going to be a bit of a hurdle for retro fits.

As soon at the lakes thaw I'll let you know how the side tabs work. Hopefully someone in a more southern state can chime in before then!

[Razzman]

The probable reason Lenco feels it's unsafe is that at higher speeds it may have a tendancy to "walk" side to side as the hull reacts to the contact surface of the tab(s). I've seen this many times on high speed drag & circuit boats. Adding tabs to a wake hull may very well intensify that effect making it unsafe in their eyes.

Sanger lessoned that effect years ago on their drag hulls by making a fixed plate or "cav plate" as they called it that ran gunwale to gunwale across the stern which forced the hull to "set" in one position. But those hulls were pretty much smooth bottom, no strakes or chines per se as the boats didn't turn.