amp power envy Issues?

[jmvotto]

So i see all these systems and i am starting to wonder if i will have enough power.

I am looking for recomendation for an amp that will power 4 6.5 polks on the tower ( preferable at 2 ohms) too lazy to run additional speaker wire. I was going to use two channels from my jl m6600 which would be 75 watts RMS x 6 at 4 ohms (100 watts RMS x 6 at 2 ohms) at 14.4 volts .

Would 25 per speaker be enough? Edit 50 watts per speaker I think.
most 4 channel amps don't go down to 2 ohms in the bridge mode . like the kicker 350.4 or the jl m4500

thanks

[mmandley]

IMO no 25 RMS is not going to be enough to power them properly. The speakers are rated at 75 rms if i recall with a 150 max power.

25 RMS they will sound good but not enough power to really crank them up.

[jmvotto]

suggestions?? so at 2 ohms( 2 speakers per channel) would i need an amp that delivers 75 per channel rms or 150 rms

[mmandley]

If you can get the amp pushing 50RMS you should be golden. 150 RMS is going to blow those speakers out id think. Too much power to them now.

Ive ran big speakers on low RMS amps and they sounded great, your just realy working that amp over.

[04OUTBACK]

Joe..
Load that boat up!
Put the new Kicker HLCD's on the tower... and put some HEAVY DUTY amps in.. I'll be able to hear you a few lakes over.....

HA

[viking]

jm,
I've got a Kicker ZX250.2 that I don't need. I'm putting all new amps/speakers in this winter too. It pushes 125W X 2 at 2ohm.
Here's a link to the specs:

http://www.buy.com/prod/kicker-zx250-2-car-amplifier-2-channel-s-class-ab-94-db-snr/q/loc/111/210756120.html

[jmvotto]

Mike. I assume your kmt6 run at 2 ohms so the kicker zx 450.2 works great. 1

do they still sell these new or is this an older model

[mmandley]

Mike. I assume your kmt6 run at 2 ohms so the kicker zx 450.2 works great. 1

do they still sell these new or is this an older model

Not sure if you meant me Mike or another Mike LOL.

My KMT6s were 4ohm load on the amps. This is the way they come inside the pod from Kicker. I ran it with the 450.2 and they scream.

I have those new Exiles im running on that same 450.2 at 2 ohms and i know im over working that amp. I have a 600.2rms Exile amp to power it with just havnt installed it yet.

KMT6s can still be had new for around 225 ish.

[jmvotto]

mike or the other mike,:p

i forgot you upgraded, i think i even commented on your post, the exiles are " da bomb" yeah i wanted a youtube test video.

viking how much for the amp? pm if needed will it power 4 tower speakers?

my jl will do 100 rms at 2 ohms, not sure its enough.

Brad, not sure the tunes will hit your lake , but i am sure we can do a mini jam at your lake;)

[newty]

Jm that amp will work fine for those speakers. Just make sure you tune them correctly so you don't get any distortion. You will be fine until you feel like upgrading. Trust me, we always upgrade.:p

[you da man]

I would get a quality, efficient amp for any stereo...especially for tower use. I'm having 4 Bullet Hollow Point 770's on the tower running off of 2 JL Audio 1300 monoblock amps. Then I'll have 6 Polk db651's and a JL 10 or 12" sub off the 6 channel JL amp. I'm using 2 Deka AGM batteries with right at 200 amp hours for the stereo.

[cab13367]

Joe,

Since you are running two speakers per channel at 2 ohms, each speaker would get 1/2 of the amps output per channel at 2 ohms, or 50 watts per speaker. The polk db651's are rated at 60 watts RMS so if you get a bigger amp, you couldn't use much more of it's power anyway. Suggest you wire it up with the JL and then see if you feel like you need more power/volume.

Don't you also have 6 cabin speakers plus a sub? How do you plan to power them?

Al

[jmvotto]

Al,

Currently i have the jlm 6600 running channel 1 & 2 for the cabins, 3&4 to the towers (single pods only) and 5 & 6 to the sub bridged. the HU powers the bow speakers with a bass blocker at 120hz.

I will try the JL this summer, i was looking at deals if my JL could not handle it, i guess it can. so i will probably wait to hear the extra podds on the towers.

Newty thanks for th input. I am trying to help out the economy.

[cab13367]

Joe,

You have the 4 cabin speakers wired the same way that you will wire the double ups on the towers. Do you feel like the cabin speakers are getting enough power?

I remember your set up now because mine was going to be similar until I found a deal on the ZX700.5 that I couldn't pass up. You already have two batts and an ACR so adding a second amp won't be too bad.

Al

[jmvotto]

Al, The cabins are plenty loud but projecting the towers for behind the boat is different. I have not adjuted the gain at all on the tower channel for output and my amp is situated such that i need a cosmetic mirror to view the adjustments. I can't get the towers louder than the interior speakers which makes everyone deaf in the boat. I have pac lc1 on the towers but it only dials it back from the overall HU volume . I need it to go past the interior speakers. maybe i just need an eq for total control.

I do have two batteries and the VSR. I also do not have much room for another large amp if i go that way. the OBV hole and storeage is quit small.i was think of adding the jl m2250 its small an compiments the 6600m

http://signature.crutchfield.com/App/Product/Item/Default.aspx?i=136M2250&search=jl+m2250&ssi=0&skipvs=T

[Brianinpdx]

jmvotto - A few thoughts for you on your system changes. You've gone the single amp route and have reached the max ability of that amplifier to satisfy you. Over time your needs have grown and the ability to scale your system upwards has reached its limit with your current gear. Here's what needs to happen. I'll break out by category:

Towers: Your going to need to aquire a 2 ohm amplifier to run that double pair of Polks. Be advised that after you do install this amplifier, your still asking the amplifier to make some magic where it cannot because its powering car speakers in cans/pods and thus limits its projection abilities. You mentioned trying to get the towers louder than the cabin. This could indeed be a function of not enough power behind it. But I suspect when you step up to a big 2 ohm amplifier then you'll have the power to push any tower speaker but not the speaker to take the power. It's definitely a give or take situation here but the right thing to do is start to split out your system and drive the individual area's with dedicated power amplifiers. Long answer is, look into HLCD speakers if your still not happy.

Cabin: Rather than having your cabin speakers powered by that over shared multi channel combined with HU outputs, you need to refocus ch's 1/2/3/4 on your cabin set up and yank out that blocker etc. Could you run out and buy a bigger amplifier? Sure! Do you need to? No way. You'll be plenty happy with what you have already. You could still use 5/6 for a sub but this is also an area that adding dedicated amplification would produce superior results.

A few observations for the group: There is no such thing as having to much power available to you. Meaning having a big amplifier that has the ability to produce 2-3 times the rated power gives the user dynamic range. Likewise, having an amplifier that barely cuts it is asking it to run at 100% all the time. this is where distortion and other nasty buggers come into play. The user wants more, so he cranks up the gains, flips on bass boost, steps up the HU volume and up up and away he goes. The result is something that doesnt get much louder but infact sounds worse and distorted. SOLUTION: Split out your system with dedicated amplifiers and get yourself as much DYNAMIC RANGE AS POSSIBLE. (or your can afford - whichever comes first) hehe!

With all this in mind, Newty is right! We all upgrade. Its just the nature of the beast. Speaking of which, I know that Mike has a big 2 ch kicker 2 ohm amp that he wont be using much longer. Not sure if he wants to part with it, but it would be ideal for the situation mentioned above. He's beta testing a new Exile 2 ch code name "Harpoon" --- if he ever gets it in his boat! I can tell you guys more about that later but don't want to hijack this thread.

Hope this helps! If you need help with wiring diagrams on your reconfiguration give me a shout at [email protected] and I'll steer you through it.

peace!

-Brian
Exile Audio

[cab13367]

Al, The cabins are plenty loud but projecting the towers for behind the boat is different. I have not adjuted the gain at all on the tower channel for output and my amp is situated such that i need a cosmetic mirror to view the adjustments. I can't get the towers louder than the interior speakers which makes everyone deaf in the boat. I have pac lc1 on the towers but it only dials it back from the overall HU volume . I need it to go past the interior speakers. maybe i just need an eq for total control.

I do have two batteries and the VSR. I also do not have much room for another large amp if i go that way. the OBV hole and storeage is quit small.i was think of adding the jl m2250 its small an compiments the 6600m

http://signature.crutchfield.com/App/Product/Item/Default.aspx?i=136M2250&search=jl+m2250&ssi=0&skipvs=T

Joe,

The Polks on the tower are going to be very limited in their ability to project the sound back to the rider no matter how much power you give them. That's why I am replacing mine with the Kicker KMT6. They are definitely not the prettiest speakers but for a little over $200 a pair, it's the only affordable HLCD speakers out there. mmandley hooked me up with his when he upgraded to Exile (thanks Mike!) so I am going to give them a try. I don't normally have a need to listen to music while wakeboarding but what the heck, I am going to give them a try anyway. I am going to bridge channels 1 thru 4 on my ZX700.5 to run the Kickers.

You could also get an HU with three sets of pre-outs so you can use the fader to control volume between the cabin and the tower speakers. You could also go the EQ route but then you are adding noise to the signal.

If you decide to get another amp for the towers, viking's 250.2 at 125wx2 at 2 ohms should do the trick. Then you can run one set of pre-outs to the JL and the other to the Kicker and you can control the volume of the towers vs the cabins with the fader on the HU.

As far as not being able to reach the controls on the amp easily, that's why I mounted mine upside down :)

[philwsailz]

Joe,

The Polks on the tower are going to be very limited in their ability to project the sound back to the rider no matter how much power you give them. That's why I am replacing mine with the Kicker KMT6. They are definitely not the prettiest speakers but for a little over $200 a pair, it's the only affordable HLCD speakers out there. mmandley hooked me up with his when he upgraded to Exile (thanks Mike!) so I am going to give them a try. I don't normally have a need to listen to music while wakeboarding but what the heck, I am going to give them a try anyway. I am going to bridge channels 1 thru 4 on my ZX700.5 to run the Kickers.

You could also get an HU with three sets of pre-outs so you can use the fader to control volume between the cabin and the tower speakers. You could also go the EQ route but then you are adding noise to the signal.

If you decide to get another amp for the towers, viking's 250.2 at 125wx2 at 2 ohms should do the trick. Then you can run one set of pre-outs to the JL and the other to the Kicker and you can control the volume of the towers vs the cabins with the fader on the HU.

As far as not being able to reach the controls on the amp easily, that's why I mounted mine upside down :)


This is tantamount to a thread hijack, but....

Cab-

You mention using the 4 full-range channels of the Kicker 700.5 in bridged mode to run the KMT6's. I think you might be unhappy with that setup. The KMT6 is nominally a 4-ohm speaker, but it has an impedance closer to 3-ohms. That is a little low to run on a bridged amp. If your 700.5 starts cutting out at high volume, this will be the reason why. It might work for you, and it might not.

If the KMT6's give the 700.5 fits, consider a different amp. An good example would be the ZX450.2 that delivers 150 watts into a 4-ohm load. That amp or another stereo amp like the 450.2 will run the KMT6's better than any bridged amp, due to the KMT6 impedance.

FYI-

Phil
Kicker

[jmvotto]

Al,

I was wondering why Mike did not offer those too me. Maybe the whole control issue is in the head unit. the 6600 has three dedicate inputs.

Vikings amp might do the trick but is 125 rms alot different than 100 rms in the scheme of things . do i need to go 300 X2 at 2 ohms to get the max benefit

Brian, i certainly understand more watts and quality sound is better. and HLCD speakers are the tick. but iam not sure spending a 1,000 on speakers makes a ton of sense and my tower is 1 5/8" and most likely wont support the added weight very well.
I was trying to ask what would be the best power to match up 4 polk 651 tower cans that are rated 65 rms and 150 max at a two ohm load. My JL will run at 100 rms which, i believe is 50 watts rms to each speaker, good clean sound.

The bow speakers sound great from 22 rms with the lows cut off, no problem there. the cabins are cutout from the amp as wells as the towers due to the sub configuration. if they made an 8 channel, i think i would be all set. adding two big amps in the small OBV will be tough.

I hate this site..... too many good ideas to spend money ;)

[Brianinpdx]

I think we all need to go back and read the original msg again. If I read correctly, he has 4 tower speakers and not looking to change. Rather, looking for the correct amplifier to match to them. Sure there's a fair point in saying that once he does that he still wont be satisfied, but lets all realize that the audio world is a journey and not a destination.

To clarify: My suggestion was pick up a dedicated 2 ohm rated amp for the towers and utilize the existing multi channel for the rest of the system (cabin speakers). I think somehow down the thread we got the poor guy changing out his entire system muahaha! Dump everything, buy new! wait now, thats not right either.

-Brian

[EarmarkMarine]

Some good advice here from Brian, Phil and others (you know who you are). I don't want to take on the entire discussion and only have one tiny area to contribute.

Sometimes its necessary due to a budget... However, anytime you run the bow speakers off the source unit it forces you to run the gains on the amplifier (that runs the sub and four cockpit coaxials) wide open or at least inordinately high. You have to do this in order to keep the source unit internal power from prematurely clipping. And now its going to be difficult to run the tower speakers more aggressively off the same amplifier. So if you power the bow speakers from the external amplifier also you can achieve a better tuned, cleaner and more balanced system. You could either add a very small 2-channel for the bow or a larger 2-channel for the tower. Since your sub channel(s) and tower channels usually are worked the hardest I prefer to break these areas into separate amplifiers. So that's the story and I'm sticking to it.

David
Earmark Marine

[jmvotto]

Wow , this thread really brought out the heavy hitters. OK

Brian"My suggestion was pick up a dedicated 2 ohm rated amp for the towers and utilize the existing multi channel for the rest of the system (cabin speakers)." which size amp would match and not blow the speakers? 300 x 2 at 2 ohms or 150 X 2 at 2 ohms

we like to hear tunes surfing, but probably not footin, boarding, skiing on the long line, our lake is lined with residences. don't want to be a punk a$$ kid with a trunk rattler, just a good sounding system with control

David, I finally got to hear the reason behind the HU and amp sharing the signal. I will need to change that to isolate gain/power to the tower speakers.:idea:

maybe i will cave to the hcld at some point( bullet points ,wetsounds exiles or the new kicker combo), But why to some mfgs like SC, MC, Nautique all load there boats with " Expensive Junk" if it does not project very well. i am perplexed with that.

[cab13367]

This is tantamount to a thread hijack, but....

Cab-

You mention using the 4 full-range channels of the Kicker 700.5 in bridged mode to run the KMT6's. I think you might be unhappy with that setup. The KMT6 is nominally a 4-ohm speaker, but it has an impedance closer to 3-ohms. That is a little low to run on a bridged amp. If your 700.5 starts cutting out at high volume, this will be the reason why. It might work for you, and it might not.

If the KMT6's give the 700.5 fits, consider a different amp. An good example would be the ZX450.2 that delivers 150 watts into a 4-ohm load. That amp or another stereo amp like the 450.2 will run the KMT6's better than any bridged amp, due to the KMT6 impedance.

FYI-

Phil
Kicker

Phil,

Thanks for that info, really appreciate it. I didn't realize the KMT6's are really 3 ohm - I was going by the specs which said 4 ohm. This might be a show stopper for me - I don't want to run three amps. Since hearing music 75' back is really not a priority for me (I mostly just have the tower speakers to hear music while anchored and swimming behind the boat), I might stick with my 4 polk audio speakers in aluminum cans. I bought the 700.5 for that purpose, with the 5th channel running the sub.

Thanks again.

Al

[Brianinpdx]

Aint no heavy hitters here.. Just all us industry guys with to much time on our winter hands. hehe!

To answer your question, either of those power rating will work just fine with your setup. I didnt scroll way back in the thread but I vaguely remember someone talking about a used kicker amplifier and that would be fine! Your comment about not wanting to be the punk kid blasting the lake peeps means to me that your probably just fine with those tower speakers you have now. But just keep in mind the punk kids didnt start out that way haha! they grew over time with several audio upgrades. You might find after placing the right amp into the mix that the performance just isnt there. This would be more on the speaker side than the amp. So my advice is get the biggest amp that you can afford. You can always turn the gains down some and if you want to upgrade the speakers later you already have the amp in place.

About the boat mfg's: Well the simple answer is price. Audio is an option and HLCD's are the Ferrari of audio performance wise. Some boat companies are getting away from stock systems. I think you'll see more of that in the future.

Let us know how the upgrades go!

[mustangairchair]

that amp has lots of power not only that it is jl and they rock. there is a big diffrence how the amps are rated peak power is a bad way to rate a amp in a range you will never run it in. rms is the only way to rate a amp and 25 watts rms is alot of power.the class of amp makes a differance to. a A class amp is a compition amp and rated low for what they put out.