I have the answer!!

[newty]

Ok so I believe I have found a simple, free, 5 minute, solution to increase ballast flow by at least double through the SC factory 08 and older Gravity 1 and 3 systems with out any major modifications to the system. Holy crap I'm so excited but I have to head to work now and I will give the full scoop in about 3 hours. I cant believe how simple this fix is!! You guys are going to be stoked!

Newty

[moombadaze]

Newty, You have my full attention on this

[newty]

Ok, so I removed the solenoid from the manifold and removed the hose. I was playing around with the toggle switch on the valve blowing by mouth through the valve. I was surprised how hard I had to blow to make air pass through with the solenoid open. I then hit the fill switch to see if that made a difference having the solenoid energized and blew with no change. Its a wonder those valves let any flow by with as much pressure required when the valve is in an open state.
Now I used to have lots of trouble with the sprinkler system at my old house. Debris would get caught in the plunger of the solenoid and I had to remove the 6-8 screws to clean it out. I remember there being a spring in the valve body to help hold back pressure when the valve was closed. And since these are designed to be in a high pressure environment I wondered if these springs are really needed in this low pressure, low flow application.
I started doing a little bench testing with the valve. I removed the solenoid actuator (black with wires running into it) by un-threading it then removed the 8 screws on the top, and separated the housing. I found the spring, plunger, etc. I then removed the spring and re-assembled it with a couple screws and tried blowing into it again with the manual valve open. It was considerably easier to blow through this time. I closed the valve and blew again, and it worked.
I jumped in the boat and plugged it in to make sure it responded the same while energized and it did!!
The difference between having the spring and not is huge! And in this low pressure environment you will have little if any flow by with out the spring.
I won't be able to test this on the water for some time, so hopefully some of you in the more southern regions of the states can try it out!
I hope this works for you guys. I cant imagine it wouldn't help.
Please let me know if you guys try it and how it works.
Try it in your garage first and you will see, its easy to get to and remove. I think you will be surprised at how simple a fix this is!

Newty

[jester]

Newty,

I was reading your post and it sounds like a sound solution. My one question is could the spring be used to keep the valve from openning when there is pressure on the output side? If you still have it out of the boat could you try blowing from the other direction to see if the air pressure pushes the valve open?

[newty]

Jester, It acts like a check, and yes I blew on the other end and it was sealed.

[moombadaze]

Newty, I have a xtra valve now and will do what you discribe and put it back in and give it try this sunday hopefully-weather permitting.

I still have the 1" valve in the boat-i wonder if this would flow even more?

[newty]

Yes master Ed.

That would be cool Moombadaze let me know how it works. If you get a chance play with them at home in your boat and see how they act side by side 1" vs. 2" before you go out.

[yearround]

do any of you know what kind of pump we have? i was wondering, but i dont have it down anywhere and i am not near the boat to look in it.

thanks

[newty]

I believe its a Rule 1400

[newty]

I did some bucket testing today with huge success!!
All tests were performed with two 5 gallon buckets and timed from empty to fill of one 5 gallon bucket.

Configuration

Test 1. Factory set up. Time to fill 45sec GPH 391


Test 2. factory set up w/no solenoid spring. Time to fill 32sec GPH 604


Test 3. Factory pump no solenoid. Time to fill 28sec GPH 643


Notes: All tests conducted with 3/4 in hose. Results will vary with 1" factory hose.
Valve held in manual off with pump running no water leaking.

Jester, I was incorrect in stating that water will not pass backward through the valve. This is true both with and without the spring. The water that would pass through in this instance is minimal at best, and the same with and without the spring.

I am still thinking of adding the second rule pump to the main header with this configuration and see what I find.

Hope this helps! I was going to water test it but deceided after the tests to pull all the springs and keep them in the boat just in case.

Newty Out!

[moombadaze]

Newty
As soon as i got home i grabbed that xtra valve and did the breath test and dang i about hurt myself. Took the spring out and what a difference. I took one of the springs out of one valve in the boat and left one in-they sit side by side. Sunday i will try to get to the lake and see what kind of differnce there is and snap a photo of the amount of water coming out of those two valve's. My bigger valve also has this spring and i could not blow any air thru it-took the spring out and again what a difference. I also have some bigger size hoses and will see if that does anything. Your bucket test is VERY encouraging. Now i just hope it does not rain on sunday.

[jester]

Newty,

Good to hear the test went so well. You should take your boat out tomorrow or sunday to do water testing. I will be in Portland so i would be more then happy to join in becasue today was such a nice day out I really wanted to be on the water. Ok so that is a scam to get you to take your boat out.

[newty]

Jester, Anything I can do get out in the boat. Unlike a lot of people I don't have to lie to make friends.

Moombadaze pretty big difference with out the spring huh?
When I did the bucket test I was a little dissapointed with the results until I calculated the GPH, that was a lot more encouraging. So my original estimates of 1/2 the fill time were off but for the low low price of... free a little under a 1/3rd will do the trick!
I plan on marketing this in my area! ;) I mean who wouldn't want less fill time in there ballast.

[phenom_1819]

Newty, you have made my day. And it's my birthday... So that's a big deal. :)

[newty]

Happy Birthday bro! Glad I could help. Have a beer or 8 for me!

[csmsk]

Holy s***, I can't wait to try this out. Thanks Newty!!!

[chillyx]

I think I know what you're talking about, but is there any way you could post some pictures??

[moombadaze]

Since i have a xtra valve now it was very easy to shoot a couple photos.

this shows the 8 screws that need to be removed
http://i527.photobucket.com/albums/cc351/moombadaze/DSC00462.jpg

this is the spring that is removed
http://i527.photobucket.com/albums/cc351/moombadaze/DSC00463.jpg

you really dont even have to remove the valve first-this can be done in the boat

[moombadaze]

this is with the stock valve--boat is also just sitting on the trailer for all photo's

stock valve
http://i527.photobucket.com/albums/cc351/moombadaze/DSC00467.jpg

another angle of stock valve
http://i527.photobucket.com/albums/cc351/moombadaze/DSC00468.jpg

stock valve with spring removed--very noticable increase in water flow
http://i527.photobucket.com/albums/cc351/moombadaze/DSC00469.jpg

another angle of spring removed valve
http://i527.photobucket.com/albums/cc351/moombadaze/DSC00470.jpg

[moombadaze]

this is the bigger 1" valve with the spring removed and larger 1" inch hose. this is almost the same flow as my tsunami pump
http://i527.photobucket.com/albums/cc351/moombadaze/DSC00471.jpg

this was a very nice solid flow of water, with the spring in i was only about a 1/4 of that amount of water.


Newty, Huge,Huge thanks for your idea- I cant tell you how disapointed is was with my upgrade till you said to remove the spring-that made it all come together.

I did get the boat up on plane to see if water would force its way up thru the valves--didnt happen.

Newty-- you have my vote for mod of the year for a performance upgrade and its FREE

[moombadaze]

only 3 simple piece's to buy at home depot

stock valve removed from boat
http://i527.photobucket.com/albums/cc351/moombadaze/DSC00473.jpg

then remove these two adapters
http://i527.photobucket.com/albums/cc351/moombadaze/DSC00474.jpg

the 3 piece's purchaced
http://i527.photobucket.com/albums/cc351/moombadaze/DSC00475.jpg

going back together, the intake adaptor from the original valve now goes on the output side of the new valve
http://i527.photobucket.com/albums/cc351/moombadaze/DSC00480.jpg

[moombadaze]

new valve put together
http://i527.photobucket.com/albums/cc351/moombadaze/DSC00481.jpg


how to remove spring from bigger 1" valve
http://i527.photobucket.com/albums/cc351/moombadaze/DSC00476.jpg
pry apart and loosen screw
http://i527.photobucket.com/albums/cc351/moombadaze/DSC00478.jpg

remove spring and put all back together
http://i527.photobucket.com/albums/cc351/moombadaze/DSC00479.jpg

[moombadaze]

if you do upgrade to the 1" valve-valves are one way--arrows on them show you

[moombadaze]

Thanks Ed

also wanted to show how i got 1" hose to work
http://i527.photobucket.com/albums/cc351/moombadaze/DSC00482.jpg

a little bit closer.
http://i527.photobucket.com/albums/cc351/moombadaze/DSC00483.jpg

http://i527.photobucket.com/albums/cc351/moombadaze/DSC00484.jpg

[newty]

Moombadaze, Awesome pics and demo!! I appreciate the time you've spent researching this and other projects.
I still have had no time to get a water test done but it looks like we gotter nailed down as being a a proven upgrade.
Its awesome that we can all benefit from each others ideas and projects, and live at nearly at opposite ends of the US.
As the A-team would say "I love it when a plan comes together".

Newty

[kaneboats]

Nice work guys! This is what it's all about around here.

[sandm]

can't wait for the weather to get a little warmer here to start on this...

come on march.........

[Razzman]

Good job guys! I'll be popping them springs out asap here soon! :D

[04OUTBACK]

Job Well Done.. starting to get a little inspired now!
I had bought a 4th valve to plumb surf sac.. in the box in the garage..
need a little motivation!
And Weather.. and Time!..

[newty]

Three things rarely found together... Motivation, weather, and time!:)

[04OUTBACK]

I get all 3 sometimes when Riding is involved...
Time is the worst factor these days.. I could overcome the other two..

[kaneboats]

Three things rarely found together... Motivation, weather, and time!:)

I think that's what Socrates said about his Moomba-- our was it Confucius?

[tazz3069]

Newty and Moombadaze--
OK help me out here. I went out and purchased the new watermaster(Orbit) vlave. I did what you explained in your pictures. I put the pump in the water and turned it on and nothing came out. Not even a drop. Also, just to let you know, I installed the Tsunami 1200GPH pump. I wanted to make sure the pump worked. I took off the valve and there she blows. So I know the pump works. What am I doing wrong?
Tazz

[moombadaze]

Tazz, is it possible the valve is in backwards? they have a little arrow to indacate the direction water should flow.

I had mine all back together before i saw that little arrow

[tazz3069]

The arrow is pointing in the right direction. I even turned it around to see if that would work and still nothing.

Here is a stupid question, should the valve be in the horizontal position? Right now, I have the pumpin the bucket of water sitting vertical. The valve is also sitting vertical.

[moombadaze]

spring is removed in the valve? can you blow air thru the valve?

dont think vertical would make a difference.

[tazz3069]

yes the spring has been removed.
Here is another dumb question. Well when I purchased the new valve, it came with the solenoid. The solenoid is 24v. Our boats are 12v. Did you get your solenoid with a 12v of power?

[moombadaze]

1" or 3/4" valve?

[tazz3069]

Yes I can blow air through the valve. I even removed the solenoid to see if it was causing a restriction.

[tazz3069]

3/4" valve.

[moombadaze]

did you try moving that little black lever on the valve?

oh they are 24 volt soleniod.

[tazz3069]

Yes. I know in the on position, the water should move through the valve. I had the solenoid off. I stuck my finger in the valve and pushed up the diaphram. It moved very easy.

[moombadaze]

was this a new valve that you had to wire up the soleniod to power?

[tazz3069]

yes. I went to Home Depot and purchased the valve for about $11.00. Maybe a got the wrong kind?

[moombadaze]

try removing the 8 screws and then pull the black plunger out-it could just be "stuck" from sitting like that so long in the box

[tazz3069]

OK I will give it a try.

[moombadaze]

one thing i cannot figure out on these valves is what the little black lever does- i have the "lid/top" off and when you move the lever nothing happens

[tazz3069]

OK. I checked everything. I had the pump on and no solenoid. Nothing came out. I stuck my finger in the valve and pushed up the diaphragm. The water came out flowing. I wonder if the diaphragm is too thick. Maybe built for higher pressures?

[tazz3069]

Correct me if I am wrong. when power is supplied to the solenoid, it pulls the pin in? Right

[newty]

OK a couple of things. The little black lever is an electrical bypass. So it works the same way as if it were energized. The lever pushes that little white plunger down. That is what opens the valve.

That being said because it is a 24 volt solenoid it may not have enough juice to open the valve. I have not seen a 12 volt solenoid anywhere except the these boats. Do you have the old solenoids, or did you ever have them?

The little black lever should open the valve weather it is wired or not.

[moombadaze]

ive got a barcode sticker on my 3/4 valve that says
"for outdoor use only
57203
3/4 FPT auto inline Vlv NFC; blk

bar code numbers
46878 57203"

[newty]

You may also have the solenoid wired backwards. As far as I know it does matter.

[moombadaze]

Correct me if I am wrong. when power is supplied to the solenoid, it pulls the pin in? Right

yes and when power is cut it kinda shots that little piece out--dont ask how long it took to find it:rolleyes:

[VA LSV]

Solenoid coils are rated 24 VAC but work fine with 12 VDC.

[tazz3069]

For some reason mine is not working. I removed the solenoid and tested it. When I hit the switch, the pin is pulled in. When I flip the switch off, the pin releases and comes back out.

Newty, That little white plunger does not move on mine. I wonder if I can remove it and grease it up somehow. How would I know if it is wired backwards? Should the solenoid push the white plunger down?

last night, I went back in the boat to figure this out. When the pump is on, nothing comes out of the valve. I put my finger in the output of the valve and pushed on the diaphram. The diaphram went up and out came the water. Could this particular valve not be the right one. Were did you get yours?

[moombadaze]

Tazz, the white plunger looking part does not move on my valve's either, i think it works off vacum, when the soleniod is energized it pulls in and creats vacum to help open the valve. The black lever should be sticking "out" not up/on.

Im at work now and thinking off a fuzzy memory

[tazz3069]

Maybe my white plunger is clogged. I will check it out.

[moombadaze]

oh i got my 1" valve at home depot

I crawled up in the boat last night and all the original soleniods are 24 volt.

Anybody have a idea were i can get the factoy wire connector's?

[tazz3069]

I had cut mine off the old solenoids before they went into the trash. I also tossed the valves in the trash. I should have waited. Hopefully we can figure out why mine is not working.

[newty]

I'm at work right now so with out the valve in front of me I don't really know if I can help.
Just a couple trouble shooting q's...
Are you sure you have power to the solenoid? Double check! If you do take the solenoid off and cycle it to see if the plunger works. Don't loose the parts.
The solenoid may be bad or shorted.
Have you manipulated the valve by-pass switch w/o power and water pumping?
Is the solenoid in while you are testing?
That might help us understand whats going on.

[moombadaze]

try switching the wiring around-possible backwards?

I must admit im getting stumped on this

[tazz3069]

Newty--
Yes power is to the solenoid. I removed it to see if it sucks in under power. when power is off, the plunger comes out.
Yes I worked the switch while the water is flowing. Remember, the water will only flow if I push the diaphram up with my finger. You can here the difference in the noise the pump makes. Once pushed the water goes into the pump and out the valve.
I have had the solenoid both in and out while testing the valve.
If funny, the pump I have is a lot stronger than my stck pump. I have the Tsunami 1200GPH pump.

Moombadaze. I will go and try switching the wires right now from the last test. I will be right back.

[tazz3069]

Alright now. I got it to work. The problem is that I had the pump in a Vertical position in the bucket. The was no pressure of water going into the pump as if it were sitting in the water. I placed the pump horizontal and the water started flowing. Now that problem is solved, the new problem. With the spring out, and solenoid off (no power), I still get a great flow of water. So I reinstalled the spring and powered the solenoid and yes the flow was a lot less. I think the spring needs to be there to put pressure against the diaphram to keep it closed so water will not enter while the boat is in motion. Now, I wonder if we cut a coil or two off the spring and still give the diphram pressure to keep it closed but less pressure when the pump is activated to allow the proper flow. What do you guys think?

[moombadaze]

Tazz,
Glad to hear problem is solved

I had my boat up on plane and had no water come out the valves(with spring removed),

[tazz3069]

Did you say you had a 1" valve on your system. I think that I might chage my hoses on the rear sacks to 1" If you hoses are 1", how did you remove the quick connect off the bag and change it from 3/4" to 1"?
I want to thank you and Newty for guiding me through this little problem that I encountered. Even though we have never met, it feels like we have known each other for several years. Thanks for your help.
Mark

[moombadaze]

Tazz, I did upgrade one valve so far to 1" and am running 1" hose from that valve to my surf ballast bag. If you do go with this you will need about 8-9 feet of hose. On page 3 of this thread i tried to get pictures showing all the parts needed. I am reusing the soleniod from the 3/4" valve--they are interchangeable, that way i did not have to splice any wireing.

I am going to try Newty's two pump conversion soon but first i want to locate some of those wireing connectors.

[tazz3069]

Moombadaze--
In my setup, I removed the single pump and added three separate pumps. One for each bag. Now I upgraded the intake from 3/4" to 1". Should I use the 3/4" valve or a 1" valve and then reduce it to 3/4" to go into the existing hoses?

[Razzman]

I have a question, we're talking stricktly fill here correct? If so what is the diameter of the bottom scupper and have you all taken that into consideration or does it matter? Afterall aren't you regulated by the size of the input? If 3/4" is the intake then what does going 1" matter? Just asking ... :D

[newty]

Glad to hear you got if figured out!
Razzman what ever diameter the intake to your pump is, is the diameter you want to go with. In my case and most likely in Tazz's is that you may want to upgrade to 1" or larger with multiple pumps. You may be starving the pumps that require 3/4" inlet if you have all three running off of one inlet.
In my case I spoke with my boss who is a physical engineer about sharing flow, the conversation quickly went way over my head :) He showed me on a chart what recommended flow through 3/4' should, be and what the pumps were rated to do and we (he) figured out I would be alright because the length of shared run of pipe was less than 4" then it split so there will be no loss of flow or starving of the pumps.
Tazz in your case I would think of going up in size of inlet because you are feeding 3 pumps. I would simply order a larger through hull, remove the old one and make the hole a little bigger. If I'm not mistaken your tsunami pumps are rated at a higher flow than the rule.
Was the manual valve open when the flow through the valve was occurring when it was supposed to be shut?
You may also have the wrong valve. I noticed there were several 3/4" valves at home depot and they all looked similar. I wonder if they behave any differently in this application.

Tazz, I had originally thought of removing a portion of the spring as well to aid in the flow, and thats when I found the no spring trick. It might work.

[newty]

Tazz, When are you going to post up some pics of what you are doing? I'd like to see what your ideas are.

[tazz3069]

Newty, In my set up, I have 3 1" scuppers. The original was 3/4". I wanted more water flow so I went with 1". So now I have a scupper for each pump. The leaver was in the off position. If I flipped it up, then the water was flowing.

Here is the link
https://forum.moomba.com/showthread.php?t=7138

[newty]

So you cycled the valve without the spring during the water test and it still leaked by?
Ok I understand the pics now. I saw that post before but I guess I didn't realize thats what you were doing.

[tazz3069]

Yes but very little water came out. What I did was turned on the pump and then turned on the solenoid. The water started flowing when the solenoid was turned on. When off, a little water still came through when pump was on. I will lake test it when all the new valves are put in. I am going to use 1" valves. I need to pick up 1" hose barbs to finish install.

[newty]

OK I just wanted to make sure I understood you right. I hope the 1" valves work better for you. Sounds like that system sill rip when you dialed in.
What are you going to do with the old rule pump?

[jeilers1]

Good question Newty. I'd like to buy that pump for my setup or trade for a boat buddy that I took of my trailer after three uses.

[moombadaze]

jeilers1--where in central Wa are you? my home town is Wenatchee

[moombadaze]

Tazz, Are you going to wire the soleniod on the valve and the fill pump to the same switch-so that both get power at the same time?

[tazz3069]

Moombadaze. The answer to that question is yes. Right now I disconnected one of the pump and using that switch to operate the solenoid. I would like to fing waterproof connectors to do this. I cut the old connectors of the old solenoids. I would like to make my own. Mak it into a why connector. One input for the pump and the other for the solenoid.

Jellers1 and Newty-- In regards to the pump, I have bad news. I had laid everything on the top deck. While moving all the stuff around, it fell off, hit the ground, and broke. It went into the garbage. Sorry.

[newty]

Moombadaze have you tried filling you system completely since the mod? If so how did it work?

[moombadaze]

Newty- i hope to get on the lake tomorrow-weather permitting.

That Nick guy on wakeworld if i understood his question correctly-made me think that with the 2 in-pumps if they would overpower the springless valve and let water thru? let me clarify a little. Say you are only filling one bag up im wondering if one of the other valves would let water thru.

[newty]

Yea I don't know how it will work with two pumps. Thats why I stated with a factory system!
You said you didn't have any probs so we'll see.
People need to check things out them self to make sure things are as we say they are. It would be foolish for someone to pull the springs and expect everything to be hunky dory. Maybe for instance the 03 moombas are different, they should do a little research for themselves like most of us here @ moomba.
Hope that thread doesn't go south. You always get the guy thats a grinder trying to argue with everyone. With out ever really knowing whats really going on. Thats why I like this site so much.

[moombadaze]

You always get the guy thats a grinder trying to argue with everyone..


I hear you on that. I read a lot over there but rarely post. Most Moomba threads do go south.

[newty]

Ed, seek medical attention!

[KG's Supra24]

Just need to send a prepaid label?

[deafgoose]

Would this spring removal mod also work for the Irritrol 700 Valves?

[JesseC]

Did anyone have issue with the valves "bleeding" while under way? Those springs are in there to help shut off the valves when they are not energized. If you are running a pump and filling multiple bags and you cut one off, does the valve have enough evergy to shut itself or is it just left open since the spring is gone?

[newty]

I ended up cutting the springs in half because they would tend to bleed by. If you keep them clean, they seal better and are a little more dependable.

[Beejwest]

So springs in half is the way to go?

Want to upgrade to the Irritrol 700's, do they fill faster than the stock orbit valves? Those stock orbits are 3/4", should I go with 3/4" irritrols, or is 1" better. If I do 1", do I need different fittings?

[JesseC]

Do not go with the 1" valves. I put in the 4,500 GPH pump and the 1" valves and did not notice much of an increase from the 3000gph with the 3/4" valves. I ran the 3/4" Irritrol valves for about 3 years and they worked great.


So springs in half is the way to go?

Want to upgrade to the Irritrol 700's, do they fill faster than the stock orbit valves? Those stock orbits are 3/4", should I go with 3/4" irritrols, or is 1" better. If I do 1", do I need different fittings?

[JesseC]

https://forum.moomba.com/showthread.php?14074-Ballast-Timings-and-comparisons

here is a really old thread where a few of us did some testing and all posted what we came up with. The difference in the 3/4" vs 1" irrotrol was about 1 minute. Not worth the extra money for the 1" valves and all the new fittings you need.

[slipperyrockTKE300]

Jesse, Dude!!!

A little birdy told me you were back! Glad to see that.

so where did we leave off - wasn't it something about a snapper steering wheel?

[Beejwest]

awesome! Thanks!

[Beejwest]

Do I need the Irritrol 700B with flow control, or without?

[JesseC]

I don't really visit the site that much anymore, but every now and then I get a random "So and So" has replied to a thread you are subscribed to and I tend to give them a quick glance.

Oh, and the Snapper died its final death last weekend. Multiple rebuilds of the engine took its toll and on Saturday she burned down for the last time. All internal parts ruined.

RIP Snapper
09/09/1992 - 5/10/2014




Jesse, Dude!!!

A little birdy told me you were back! Glad to see that.

so where did we leave off - wasn't it something about a snapper steering wheel?

[JesseC]

Do I need the Irritrol 700B with flow control, or without?

I was not aware that they offered the 3/4 with flow control. I have the 1" with flow control (not much difference than the 3/4) and I have them all set wide open. The flow control probably isn't necessary unless you tried to get all your bags to finish filling at the exact same time (pointless if you ask me). I would want them to run wide open all the time so if you fill just one bag it will go as fast as it can. Flow control simply restricts what can pass through which is what you are trying to avoid. Save the money and DO NOT get flow control.

[Beejwest]

Just found a retailer close by and picked up three of the 3/4" without flow control. Thanks for the help. Does it matter which wire is connected to which? Or should I just mulit-meter it?