Tow Vehicle Question [Archive]

cgriebs

02-05-2009, 09:30 PM

I own a 2000 Silverado 1500 extended cab 5.3 which tows my '06 Moomba LS well. The engine has good torque, and the tow/haul mode enables the trans to shift firmly. Perfect match for my LS.

The only weak link in this truck's powertrain is the 4L60 transmission. The earlier models have been known to break sunshells easily. There are a few other weak parts in the trans. which can be upgraded during the first rebuild. You can upgrade the servo's, bands, clutches, drum(s), planetary's, pumps, sprags, and seal kit in addition to upgraded converters - anything your builder may think of.

The positive side: any shop can re-build them to tow reliably, and you don't have to break the bank to do it. My buddy is a GM Master Tech, and he's going through mine this summer, and we will be throwing all the goodies in it. My current mileage is 90K, and from what I'm told, a re-build every 100K is a good idea.

I towed my LS back from Rochester to Long Island, and the 5.3 pulled nicely (I've got 3.73 gears). I don't use O/D during towing (to keep any unwanted o/d slip from happening), and I kept it around 65 on the open road. I brought along an infrared temp gun which I used to spot check the trans temp at a few rest stops. Trans temp never went past 155 deg. as measured off the pan. My truck doesn't have an aftermarket trans cooler - only the factory rad cooler.

If you can get a later model 4L65 equipped truck/SUV, those trans. would include a few upgraded parts from the old 4L60's which, as I understand, makes them somewhat more reliable than the 4L60's.

Again, the 5.3 GM platform, whether it be a Tahoe, Suburban, Silverado or Avalanche, is an excellent choice for a tow vehicle (for our sized boats). Just be a little weary of the transmission. Nothin' worse than gettin' stuck in the back-country with a gushing trans!

One more thing if you buy used GM: Make sure the fuel pump/sending unit in the gas tank has been replaced. The pumps can quit anywhere from 60K-150K and they're $495 for a oem AC Delco unit (plus 2.1 hrs labor). Ouch. When they go, the truck will just quit at the most inconvenient time. I know three people in my town that got stuck without warning. Do not buy the cheap aftermarket units as they are fairly unreliable, albeit a few bucks cheaper. Replace the fuel filter (on frame, drive side) at regular intervals also. If the filter is full of shit, the pump has to work harder - from what I'm told. I replaced my pump (at 87K) because the sending unit (gas gauge) was acting up, so we were dropping the tank anyway. I hear that keeping the tank above 1/4 helps keep the pump cool. I just run the tank dry, then fill, repeat - never gave it much thought. Better safe than sorry. Oh - and it helps if your buddy has his own 30x30 shop on his property with two lifts inside! I get real good GM service (and advice). So far so good.

I have to admit, for my first American vehicle, I am satisfied with GM.

Good luck.

jclay5

02-05-2009, 09:38 PM

agreed, can't go wrong with the GM 5.3s...

maxpower220

02-05-2009, 09:44 PM

I have an 02 Avalanche and I am extremely happy with it. I hate the way that it looks, it has the plastic cladding on it. However, it has no door dings because of that crap. It is the smoothest, best riding truck that I have owned. It doesn't use leaf springs in the rear, so the ride is better. It is on the Suburban frame. The 1/2 ton has the 5.3 and when they made the 3/4 ton Avys they had the 8.1L.
The bed is a little small, but if you need to move stuff up to 8' long, you just open the midgate. The bed is not waterproof, but I rarely get more than a few drops in the back. I get no water in while driving. I have the 4x4 and I get around 14 city/17.5 Hwy. Pulling the MC to and from San Diego, I got an average of 12mpg. I have had this truck over 4 yrs with no problems. I have 90K miles on it. I have a friend who just turned 160K on his with only replacing the fuel pump. I have no reason to believe that mine won't last over 150K with no problems.
I used to be a Ford guy also, but not anymore. I have had F250 diesels, Nissans, Toyotas, and a Bronco, but the Avalanche has been my most useful vehicle. There is no doubt that the diesel truck was the best tow rig, but the cost of diesel, the upfront cost of buying the truck with a diesel, the hunt for diesel when on empty, and the extra cost of diesel weren't worth the cost. That doesn't even talk about the poor ride quality of any 3/4 ton truck.
The 5.3 is a good little engine. I wish that they would put the 6.0L with cylinder deactivation in the Avy. That would be a great set up. Since prices on all trucks have dropped due to the fuel prices of last summer and the slumping economy, I would try to find an 07 or newer. Those seem very nice. You can read up on many forums that cover Chevy, Avalanche, and Fords. Good luck.

Chris_B

02-05-2009, 09:48 PM

I've got an '06 Tundra Double Cab 4x4 and it's a great truck, but I wouldn't get one for towing again. It seems to lack the torque I'd like for extended towing. If I needed a truck w/o a towing need, I'd get this one again no doubt.

zegm

02-06-2009, 12:29 AM

I have had several Chevy trucks as being a Teir 2 Supplier I would get a discount. The best was the 2001 Chevy 1500HD 4x4 crew cab. It is really a 3/4 ton truck, it towed great but was just "large". It had the 6.0L engine of the 4.8 / 5.3 / 6.0 family with a 3.73 rear end. I then ordered a 2005 Avalanche with the 5.3 engine and the rare 4.11 rear axle and traded in the 1500HD. It towed great also but the mileage was Terrible with that rear axle ratio, worse than the 1500HD, but it was fully decked out with ALL options. We really liked it but due to gas issues (400 dollars a month!!!) we traded it in on a VW Jetta TDI and with the gas savings per month (41mpg everywhere in the Jetta) we purchased a used 2002 Silverado Extended cab with the 5.3 and towing package just to sit in the yard until we need a tow vehicle. It was not liked very much, it towed just ok, at 60 -65 mph it would jump in and out of tow mode and that bugged me BAD. Not having 4 real doors bugged MrsZ, who never forgave me for trading in her 1500HD (she didn't mind the Avalanche trade as she loves her Jetta). Finally with about 120k miles on the Silverado (and knowing about the weak tranny) the transmission started to whine under load. So with the wife now a diesel lover (VW TDI) she took me to drive an Touareg (all time AWD V-6 gas/V-8gas /V-10 TDI). Well now I am driving a tow vehicle that was much closer to my BMW 540i in the way it handled and felt (FAST TOO!). SO after 3 months of looking we found a GREAT Deal on a 2006 Touareg V10 TDI and traded my beloved 540i and the Silverado in for it. I LOVE IT!!! We have only towed the LS a little with it but I can tell you with 553 ft-lbs of torque the only time I knew it was behind me was when I looked in the rear view mirror. She pulls my 6600lb Proline easily too.
So our list of favorite tow vehicles is:
1. VW Touareg V10 TDI (Good luck finding V-10 TDI but V-8 not a problem!)
2. Tie Chevy 1500HD (haven't seen them lately) Avalanche (tows great with 4.11, but 12mph NOT towing s**k)
3. Chevy Silverado 1500 Extended Cab--wouldn't do this one again.

As for Ford, in my past 2 automotive suppling companies where I have worked, Ford Purchasing has done things (example one- overriding their engineering dept.) that has made me state I will Never buy one of those, another example- ask for a quote (RFQ) from only our Chinese Plant!!!! Mind you my plant closed its doors 3 years ago and that part went on the F-150!!! No thanks!

SEARK

02-06-2009, 12:45 AM

MOOMBA_97

02-06-2009, 09:26 AM

Guys,
thanks for all the input and replies. I'm going to look around a little more and try to find the best deal. Like everyone has said, now is a great time to get a good deal. Only draw back is I will get absolutely nothing when selling the one I have.

Monty

McMoomba

02-06-2009, 10:39 AM

Ed, is it a manual or automatic, also do you use it to tow Martha?

Sled491

02-06-2009, 12:03 PM

I had an 02 chevy Z71/373 transmission with 160,000 miles and it pulled my 07 Mobius LS with no problems. Never had one bit of transmission troubles with it. Went to 07 Tundra (5.7 L/towing package) last year and there is no comparison in the two trucks. Tundra is hands down a better truck (so far). Pulls the boat and can't really tell it's back there. It would be hard for me to ever go back to chevy and I had been driving chevys since 1981.

We have a 09 Tundra on a mini lease out here in Phoenix for a contract I've had going here. I would never buy one. The gas mileage is just awful compared to the Ford we had before. The cab is also very small compared to the Ford (both were 4 dr crew cabs), the brakes are ridicously set up to the point I don't understand what the heck they were thinking. I have had mini leases on the new Ford, and Toyota and I had a mini lease on an 06 Tundra a few years ago as well, now that was a really poor truck. I am very dissapointed with the Toyota.

After owning 4 Tacomas back in the day (I would get new one every 2 years) I swore I would never go back. Now after this lease, I stand behind my desision.

Sorry just an opinion from a guy who gets to drive a ton of new trucks in a real world eniroment every day.

McMoomba

02-06-2009, 12:47 PM

Ed, I would go with Ford dealer unless there is a big difference in $. Make sure they flush the cooler before replacement also you may ask about a larger cooler to increase the life of the new trany.

Ian Brantford

02-06-2009, 01:27 PM

G'day. I have read the comments about GM trucks and I have to say that the in-tank fuel pump problems have been going on for a long time. I used my father's 1997 Silverado a couple of times and I have to say that it's an admirable tow vehicle. However, he has been stranded a couple of times with fuel pump failures. He now carries a spare pump at at all times! It's easier to find a mechanic than to find a mechanic with a pump in stock when you are far from a city.

He says that the failures appear to be due to overheating when the pump is not immersed in fuel. So, keeping the tank at least 1/3 full is pretty much mandatory.

I just bought a new truck and I have to say that factories and dealers are very desperate. This is the best buyer's market that we've seen in many years. The really great deals may dry up as the current oversupply gradually gets reduced. If you can afford to buy now, go for it.

SC_LSV

02-06-2009, 01:41 PM

I tow my LSV with an 05 Z71 Tahoe. It has the 5.3L in it. The engine handles the boat fine but only get about 11-12 mpg's towing at 60-65 mph. I have also put the K&N cold air intake on, which really help with the gas mileage when not towing. Not Towing 55-65 mph you can get about 22 mpg. 85 mph can still get 16-18 mpg's depending on terrain. Only prob I have with my Tahoe is being the 2WD the shocks in the back are a lil soft so when towing the boat it sits a lil low, but no tire rub and I have never bottomed out.

SEARK

02-06-2009, 01:47 PM

We have a 09 Tundra on a mini lease out here in Phoenix for a contract I've had going here. I would never buy one. The gas mileage is just awful compared to the Ford we had before. The cab is also very small compared to the Ford (both were 4 dr crew cabs), the brakes are ridicously set up to the point I don't understand what the heck they were thinking. I have had mini leases on the new Ford, and Toyota and I had a mini lease on an 06 Tundra a few years ago as well, now that was a really poor truck. I am very dissapointed with the Toyota.

After owning 4 Tacomas back in the day (I would get new one every 2 years) I swore I would never go back. Now after this lease, I stand behind my desision.

Sorry just an opinion from a guy who gets to drive a ton of new trucks in a real world eniroment every day.

Not to start an argument over trucks and which is better but all my trucks have been run on a farm and I'm not sure anything can be as hard on a truck day in and day out as a farmer (at least here). My dad bought an 04 F150 new and it has been one thing after another with that truck. The gear shift will lock up on it at any time and has to be towed back to the dealer to get it fixed. It's about as bad as the GM's and the fuel pump issues. The F150 rattles and vibrates and is just an overall pile junk. After the our experiences with Fords I don't think I could ever buy one. I find that the gas milage with the Tundra is no worse than my 02 chevy. I work with people that have 08 chevys and they don't get any better gas milage than I do.

After all these comments I still like my Tundra. :)

zegm

02-06-2009, 02:10 PM

SC-LSV,

Speaking of shocks and being such a German car fanatic I can tell you that the Z71s come with Bilstein shocks standard (Yellow shocks with the Blue stripe on them), anyone who knows anything about shocks will tell you that they are the BEST! With that being said I ordered some Bilsteins for our 2WD (same ones on the Z71) and it cured all of the same problems you are having while towing and eliminated most of the body roll too. I think I paid around 65.00 dollars each but I got them from an Autoparts store NOT the dealer(the Bilstein website shows authorized dealers). When you see the shocks in your hands you can see why they are so awesome. And if you think that is expensive I usually have to pay 150 each for them on my German cars. If they ever blow the seals the factory will rebuild them for 50 but this has only happened to me once in over 25 years of using them and that shock was 15 years old.

zegm

02-06-2009, 03:03 PM

Yeah I only get about 20/21mpg towing with the Touareg. In town and NOT towing I get about 19mpg. I have a heavy left foot!

Ian Brantford

02-06-2009, 08:26 PM

Check out this very long thread on tow vehicles:

https://forum.moomba.com/showthread.php?t=4358

zabooda

02-06-2009, 10:00 PM

I ended getting a used tow vehicle to replace my 26 year old motor home a few weeks back. The price didn't even get close to low book. It'll take me into retirement and hopefully paid off by then. 8.1L and gets 8.5 mpg unloaded from Portland but if it is like my old one the mileage won't vary much pulling the boat and it has Bilsteins. Now my Mobius is 11 years old so what is next. hmmmmmmm

bamaspiveys

02-06-2009, 10:43 PM

Monty,

Not sure if you are still looking at this thread or the avalanche.

My wife will not drive a vehicle if it does not have a bow tie on it, I am not quite that bad, but I only buy GM products.

As far as the avalanche goes, we have had two and they are very functional vehicles. They are built on the suburban chassi, not a truck chassi, that may not sound like much but it drastically improves the ride of the Avalanche.

The 5.3L is the way to go, I have Tahoe and my wife has a silverado now and the both have the 5.3L. She pulls the 30ft Travel tralier with the truck, I pull the boat.

The early Avalanches had problems with fading on the plastic cladding, the recent models, say 2005 and newer have not had as many issues.

I love the vehicle, and would have another one in a heartbeat! (pun intended)

Good Luck

zegm

02-07-2009, 10:29 PM

Monty,

I would have to say that we would have loved our 2005 Z71 Avalanche too except for the fact that I ordered it with a 4.11 rear axle ratio (because I have a 6600lb boat too). Other than that we loved it, just couldn't afford the gas which would not be a problem with the standard rear axle ration 3.45! It is a very versatile vehicle and if you get one and you don't have the bag for the rear covers let me know and I will bring you one. It does feel and TURN better than the Chevy trucks with coil springs in the rear instead of leafs.

MOOMBA_97

02-08-2009, 09:36 PM

Most everyone I have talked to, here on the boards and locally, seems to love those trucks. It's hard to find a bad word on them. I never really cared much for them when they came out, but they have "grown" on me. Although I'm a Ford truck guy, I may switch over for that particular model. If so I'll take the bags.

Monty

Sled491

02-09-2009, 11:21 PM

Not to start an argument over trucks and which is better but all my trucks have been run on a farm and I'm not sure anything can be as hard on a truck day in and day out as a farmer (at least here). My dad bought an 04 F150 new and it has been one thing after another with that truck. The gear shift will lock up on it at any time and has to be towed back to the dealer to get it fixed. It's about as bad as the GM's and the fuel pump issues. The F150 rattles and vibrates and is just an overall pile junk. After the our experiences with Fords I don't think I could ever buy one. I find that the gas milage with the Tundra is no worse than my 02 chevy. I work with people that have 08 chevys and they don't get any better gas milage than I do.

After all these comments I still like my Tundra. :)

No argument, just a discussion. I own a construction company, so it's safe to say that we don't baby our trucks. This past weekend was spent hauling 3400lb pallets (12 to be exact)of concrete down the freeway at 75mph then over the ice up a muddy hill down another impossibly steep hill to deliver to site. This was however in my Dodge deisel 2500.

I just made the comment based on a larger than average variety of trucks that we drive on a regular basis. I'm no chevy fan either, but like you and your Toyota there seems to be people who really enjoy there trucks. That's all.

SEARK

02-09-2009, 11:41 PM

No argument, just a discussion. I own a construction company, so it's safe to say that we don't baby our trucks. This past weekend was spent hauling 3400lb pallets (12 to be exact)of concrete down the freeway at 75mph then over the ice up a muddy hill down another impossibly steep hill to deliver to site. This was however in my Dodge deisel 2500.

I just made the comment based on a larger than average variety of trucks that we drive on a regular basis. I'm no chevy fan either, but like you and your Toyota there seems to be people who really enjoy there trucks. That's all.

Do you have the Cummins engine in your Dodge? My brother has one ,and I'd never tell him this, but that truck will out pull any truck that we've ever had. Can't admit that to him. Dodge did it right by going to the Cummins.

zegm

02-10-2009, 12:15 AM

Yeah bring on that Dodge Sled!!!!
Have you seen the VW add where the V10 Touareg is pulling a Boeing 747???? You know the thing that weights over 850,000lbs loaded!!!!:p

Actually spent some time in that Indiana Town (can't remember the name right now, Columbus??) where Cummins is located and they pay for world class architects to design government buildings! What a Beautiful Town!!!

Sled491

02-10-2009, 12:22 AM

Yep, got the Cummins. For my money, I find the Dodge to be the most affordable truck out there. For this I mean a 3/4ton deisel 4x4 with the trimmings.

I like the Fords but just can't justify the extra money.

The Japanese have not entered the Deisel market yet (at least not in NA). It would or will be interesting to see what they come up with when they or if they enter that market.

I like that Volkswagon as well, just don't see alot of Gang Boxes or bags of concrete fitting in the back:) Now as a luxury SUV with bite, now that you have.

zegm

02-10-2009, 12:41 AM

Yes I must admit I had to find and pull my little utility trailer from out behind the house to do some hauling this past week. I had lost it the last couple of years somewhere in the backyard. OK, so I do this and I had to then go to Boatersworld and get some new taillights as a certain big German Shepherd decided to eat the lights and harness off of it. BUT first I had to cut the weeds and bushes that were growing through it so I could move it!!!
I realized I would have to do this when I bought the T-REX and I have even looked at maybe upgrading my trailer to a little bigger one as this one is just big enough for a 4wheeler and that is all. The Touareg is like the tractor on a semi, you get the power but you don't get the trailer.
But is she FAST!!! I can't believe I am saying that about a Diesel!!!
Go Rudolf Go!

zegm

02-10-2009, 01:47 PM

Sled,

There are 2 things I see in these pictures that caught my eye right away.
1. Black dirt.....wow, I bet you have no problem growing grass.
You think of sand when you visit Panama City Beaches but most people don't realize that it is still sand for 100 miles inland!! No problem digging holes here (ask my dogs!!) but it is difficult to grow grass. Even when you water it the moisture just drains right down through it!

2. That frozen over lake and you are driving over it!!! Nope won't ever see that here either. I guess you call those your seasonal roads huh?

moombadaze

02-10-2009, 03:46 PM

Sled, not sure if you should wait or not to get a new one. After reading about monty wanting to upgrade his truck i took a look on autotrader and am blown away at some of the prices.

Ian Brantford

02-10-2009, 04:51 PM

Sled, not sure if you should wait or not to get a new one. After reading about monty wanting to upgrade his truck i took a look on autotrader and am blown away at some of the prices.

I take it that you mean that the prices are very low. Yes -- it is very much a buyer's market right now. I was able to get a discount in addition to large rebates here in the normally uncompetitive Canadian marketplace. This was for a hard-to-find Honda Ridgeline.

Look at it this way: if you have a trade-in whose value has plummetted recently, you can probably make that up and more with the bargains on new vehicles that are out there. Plus, your trade-in won't become more valuable as the economy recovers, but the cost of newer vehicles will probably go back up.

Thus, I think that now is a good time to buy if you have enough financial security. It's the first few months of a recession, so there is oversupply. Cash is king.

moombadaze

02-10-2009, 06:19 PM

This was for a hard-to-find Honda Ridgeline.

We have Ridgelines out the wazoo at the dealer i work at-you only would have to drive to Tampa Florida-dang near giving them away so to speak

Could not believe the price on the truck i want. Dodge cummins Megacab 4x4 loaded is advertised for dang near what i got my loaded 1500 ram for-just wish i had the money now.

Sled491

02-10-2009, 06:38 PM

Too bad there not making the Mega cab any more. Even sadder is that it was never available with an 8ft box. I need the 8ft box and as much cab as they'll give me after that.

Z, that's not brown dirt, that's MUD:)

TW3

02-10-2009, 08:22 PM

I use an 07 7500HD Silverado Duramax Z71 ausome tow vehicle

zegm

02-10-2009, 08:25 PM

Sled you just made me think of another point, with all the sand around here I realized we don't have any mud!!!!
I will still take a truck load of that mud if you come this way!
Have you checked out the deals at the local Dodge Dealer?
Also, someone mentioned on the boards about the Japanese not putting Diesels in their trucks? You can get a hybrid, the Silverado Duramax is pretty much an Izusu design from what I here.

Sled491

02-10-2009, 09:06 PM

Z, that was me about the Japanese and deisels. I was just stating that it will be interesting when they do enter the deisel market. Hybrid is OK but doesn't work for me or anyone pulling a big boat I would think.

maxpower220

02-10-2009, 10:12 PM

Too bad no one makes a diesel hybrid (car or truck). I guess it would be too fuel efficient.

zegm

02-11-2009, 12:40 AM

Sled what I was saying is the Duromax was developed by Izusu and injected by Bosch.
Maxpower being a boat nut, car nut, plane nut I really would be disappointed if I didn't get to hear the sweet sound of an internal combustion engine.
I mean how many people have been hit by an electric car because they didn't hear it coming when they were crossing the street. And what happens when you get in an accident with a 2000lb battery that close to you? And has anyone priced out those batteries when it is time to replace them. And then say you don't want to get a new one, who takes the old battery or car when you don't want it and the battery is dead? Too many issues with the "electric -hybrid". Naw save the Prius for the nerds! Besides MrsZ Jetta TDI (Turbo Direct Injection)will smoke one off the line and get better mileage on the highway too!
Finally check out this aircraft, it had 2 stroke diesel engines!!!!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blohm_%26_Voss_BV_222

Sled491

02-11-2009, 12:44 AM

Z, we have long debated this amongst my group. Batteries are made with lead, right? Lead is a heavy metal, right? Heavy metals have brutal half lifes right? So if you have to change batteries what happens with the heavy metals? I'm not sure these hybrids are all that ennviromentally sound. Green as usual is not really all that green.

moombadaze

02-11-2009, 08:44 AM

And has anyone priced out those batteries when it is time to replace them.

Yes and you really dont want to know-lets just say it offset "all that savings on gas" and more.

maxpower220

02-11-2009, 10:33 AM

I am really not interested because a Hybrid (that they make now) won't fit my needs. My point was, that they make gas/electric hybrids but not diesel electric hybrids. Every frieght train in America is diesel/electric, so the technology is there. For a given task of generating power, the diesel is much more efficient than a gas engine. A prius with a diesel hybrid may get 70 mpg vs the current 50.

After Ivan, I ran my diesel generator for 9 days until power was restored. I was getting over double the time on a tank of fuel that my neighbor's gas generator was getting. Of course, everyone in the on the block knew when my generator was running due to deafening noise.

GeauxTigers

02-11-2009, 01:05 PM

LOL! I love seeing all the "low land" dwellers talking about their choice of tow vehicles. I used to have a 5.3L Suburban until I moved to Utah and that got quickly replaced with a Chevy Duramax. The Subby would puke its guts out every time I would try to pull the smallest load over Parley's Canyon (8800 ft at the summit) or Soldier Summit (>9000 ft). With my Dmax, I have towed a toyhauler full of bikes, fuel and water weighing in at about 10K lbs going 60 mph up these canyons. Can't beat a diesel for hard work!

kaneboats

02-11-2009, 01:25 PM

Hey! There's some hills down here in Tallahassee nearly 80 feet high, you know.

Sled491

02-11-2009, 05:16 PM

Amen GT, you want a beast of a truck with better mileage and tourque out the wazu go Diesel, hands down!

Ian Brantford

02-12-2009, 02:45 PM

We have Ridgelines out the wazoo at the dealer i work at-you only would have to drive to Tampa Florida-dang near giving them away so to speak

The dealers here in Canada tend to be a bit more conservative and only stock a few at a time. I wanted the mid-range trim level (which is also the most popular), while most of the local stock was the highest. Plus, I didn't like the colours. Thus, a dealer search was required. They are out of production for the time being, so ordering from the factory would not have gotten me anywhere.

For those interested, here is my report: http://www.ridgelineownersclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25096 .

I visited a Honda dealer in the first week of November and their lot was just about full. By late November, their lot was 1/4 full and not being replenished. I was the ONLY customer there for 90 minutes on a Saturday afternoon. I think that their manager saw the writing on the wall at the Detroit dealers and stopped ordering new stuff just in time. The local Chevy dealer still had a full lot in mid-December.

Could not believe the price on the truck i want. Dodge cummins Megacab 4x4 loaded is advertised for dang near what i got my loaded 1500 ram for-just wish i had the money now.

You got that right. I have heard ads from a U.S. Dodge dealer offering 2-for-1 if you pay full price on a truck. The nearest we got here was one Chrysler dealer offering a free small car if you pay list price on a minivan.

If you want an idea of how bad things are for all vehicle manufacturers (and good for buyers), check this out: http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/gallery/2009/jan/16/unsold-cars?picture=341883529