View Full Version : rear ski boot (double)
02-17-2008, 02:31 PM
I got a new synchro fro xmas with '08 targa front boot and rtp. I ski on an open lake with some chop but no courses. I am and intermediate to advanced skier, but not even close to pro level. I have never skiied with a double high wrap. I saw on overtons the targa '06 rear plate for sale $59.95)
1. will the '06 targa boot fit with the '08 front ( colors may be off)
2. Is a rear boot worth while for the weekend warrior who doesn't ski the course, but likes to be aggressive.
3. Or if I want to try the rear boot just add the '08 and screw the sale price.
4. just ski with what i got.
I may have answered my own questions, Any thoughts from you skiiers.
Ps. Put a new kitchen floor in the cottage yesterday, 50 plus ice fisherman out front. Not a good sign, but alsways good to be at the lake. Maybe I new a snowmobile and snow skiis....... :D
I have blown out so many rear toe loops that I finally decided one day to get a rear boot. Man I should have done it from the begginning! It gives you so much more control and confidence. I suggest you get a rear boot!
02-17-2008, 04:31 PM
i think i ski similar to your ability and conditions. occasionally get on a course. i always skied with the RTP, to step start and avoid getting in the cold water.
after i rode with a double boot (took a few tries to get up) i bought HO triumph with double venom boots. i agree with Z.
though i do ski with the rtp when we have to wear the neoprene boots cuz the water is cold.
02-17-2008, 10:36 PM
The 06 should work fine with your 08 boot. Bindings don't really change that much under the same name. A rear boot is the best thing you can possibly do to enjoy skiing. Whether you get the sale price or a new 08, I highly recommend it.
Wiley's is a little bit cheaper http://www.wileyski.com/waterskis/boots-and-bindings-866.htm
When I got a double boot ski I swore I would get a rtp for more of the recreationally skiing days - but then I never did. You just get used to the boot after a while and it almost feels strange to go back - like you should take your foot out or something.
02-24-2008, 09:35 PM
About 20 yrs ago I bought my first ski with double high wraps, I'll never go back. Heck as I get older and lets say more mature around the middle I just hand down my shorter skiis and go longer, you know for the increased bouyancy. Anyhow any one who has one of my old skiis usually loves the upgrade to the DHW. It blows people away to watch my wife pull out her DHW and deep water start with it :lol:
You should have no problems with the 06 to 08 thing. Hole patterns for bindings are based on manufactuer not model yr.
02-24-2008, 10:19 PM
Thanks, I give it a try when the Ice mets in march
02-25-2008, 11:19 AM
Regarding double boots -
I fall a lot at some pretty significant speed. I have always worried about proper release when using doubles. Are these valid concerns?
When I start with open toe - I start with one foot out - always have. Much less strain on body.
Well if you use double wraps you will have to adjust your starting procedure. I actually went to double wraps after I tore a rear toe out and then the ski went bouncing up between my legs until it stopped at a very critical point during the crash.
This is only my thought, but I don't want the ski coming off when I crash now! I tuck into a ball and pull it up tight with me. I feel much safer knowing where the thing is instead of knowing where it has gone before! It wasn't pleasant!
02-25-2008, 03:28 PM
I have had some bad crashes, one on shortline at 34 that made my rear foot leg black from the back of my knee up to my a@# and including it. Last year I nosed into a little chop on my off side at 36 and folded myself in half. Had bad back pain and discomfort for about 4mnths. But as Z pointed out you will usually ballup and roll out of it.
Boot technology like everything else has come a long way and with the highwraps I currently used the lateral stiffness is so strong that I can leave the laces loose for ejection and still have more control than I have ever exerienced. And in fact I don't find my feet going to sleep like I did even 5 yrs ago with the old straight pull on boots.
Starting becomes a bit more of a battle of wills thing and requires way more strength, but a small price to pay. I would aslo say that 99% of the time if I go down one of my feet (usually the rear one) will come loose
02-25-2008, 04:32 PM
I think it's a personal preference. Most of the top slalom skiers use double high wraps, but not all. I used to use them back when I skied a little better but now I don't and I like the extra convenience/comfort.
Sled, I've always heard, and waterski mag has an article on this recently, that you never want only one foot to come out. That can lead to some serious leg/ankle injuries. If you use a toe plate, make sure your front foot will come out in a tough fall. If you use double high wraps, make sure they either are so tight they'll both stay in or they're equally loose so if one comes out the other can too. Just my 2 cents.
02-25-2008, 08:24 PM
You are absolutely correct. That is how I ended up with that 2ft bruise up my a@#. When the one foot poped out the ski rotated the oposite direction I did 8)
As for both feet coming out or staying in good luck with that :wink: In 20 yrs or so that is my experience, one foot always manages to stay in and if you do have a decleater it's probably really going to hurt anyways and you will probably spend the rest of the day as the driver :lol: . I don't see that being much different than using a RTP and a front highwrap. You crash, your rear foot comes out of the strap and the front boot hangs on to your forward leg while the ski wraps you around.
02-25-2008, 10:25 PM
On my old ski with the ancient Connelly make-my-feet-hurt-so-bad-I-don't-want-to-ski-anymore-double high wraps, I sometimes had that one foot out one foot in problem - but most of the time they both stayed in unless it was really nasty. Now, with the rear toe plate and HO Venom wrap on the front, the ski basically just comes off for a moderate to hard fall.
Last summer I decided to teach a friend of ours how to ski. We get down the nice but seldom used pairs skis. OK the friend is a woman of the family so you know I am going to show off a little bit too! Somehow while jumping the wake and showing off I started to fall backwards so I pull real hard on the rope and fall forwards! My right leg left the ski but my left leg stayed in the ski on top of the water as my body rolled forward. My straigth left leg went past my left ear. I stretched it out so bad I lost feeling in my left foot. I torn my hamstring and a$$ muscles real bad. Was in the emergency room! But no buise for 2 days and then WOW the whole left leg is BLACK, BLUE and PURPLE!!!! I am still having problems with that leg!!!! And the woman, she says she will stick to Kneeboarding!!!!
02-26-2008, 07:09 PM
Isn't that always the way :D
I leave the showing off to Dakota now, and so far it has worked. Becasue no one wants to be impressed by some loud mouth middle age dude want a be. But to see an 8 yr old show off who doesn't even know it yet is something every one can apreciate 8)
02-26-2008, 08:31 PM
I have always ski with a rtp and started with both feet in the bindings. So I think i will try the double boot to keep my weight back,
If you guys would stop scaring me with these wicked wipe outs :shock:
02-26-2008, 08:34 PM
Even starting with both feet in on a RTP it will be different. Simply because you probably push down on your toes now and raise your heel. With the Highwraps you'll have no such option.
As far as the crashes go we are talking almost 20 yrs worth of skiing here 8)
02-26-2008, 09:05 PM
Thanks, Thats a good point, I have screws in my back ankle since 16, 24 years ago, hasn't slowed me down yet except in the 50 yard dash(15 sec flat) Just looking t get the slop out of the back foot. With the new moomba HP should get my big $ss out of the H2O, while the 190 four winns, I would not even think about it.
I have had my share of wipe outs, barefoot off one ski(ouch), face plant barefoot off knee board, hyperextend knee from two skiis jumping the wake. lots of wakeoard face plantsover 20 years. Gotto go to work ever week so just a weekned warrior.
Thx for all the input. :)
02-27-2008, 12:49 AM
I too have been on a slalom for a while, 37 years to be exact. Historically I have skied soft rubber high wrap with rtp. The last two years I replaced the broken Connelly Contour front with an Obrien contact. A significant difference. After making two turns I thought there was no way I could ski a binding that stiff. But now I love it.
I never have trouble with my rear foot staying put when I ski and I try to keep my weight centered over the ski so am having a hard time seeing the proposed benefit of doubles.
I fall a lot and have only hit the ski once and ended up with 7 stitches between little toe and one next to it. No idea how that happened.
With the new stiffer binding - with laces - I have stressed my front achilles once because of a partial release out the front. It has been about 6 months and still working on stretching that. but it did not stop me from skiing.
I think if a guy really wanted security you might go with something like a Fogman system or that 3M velcro type stuff with a plate binding... Not very familiar with that..
02-27-2008, 07:29 AM
Dave, I use the Obien Contacts as well. Like you siad way different from the soft rubber jobbies of old. My trick is to lube the binding with Vasoline. Works great as boot lube and doesn't wash out right away like slime or any of theose other lubes. The double advantage here is that it lets me get into my bindings easily and then when I crash it helps with ejection. Usually there is enough left on the binding for me to get in one more time without a relube :o
02-27-2008, 09:21 AM
Just out of curiosity - how do you deal with the laces.
When I first got them I tried just hooking the pull tab on a back eyelet, which it seemed to be designed for. It stayed put about 2 turns and then started flopping all over the place. Sometimes getting stuck behind my calf and the binding.
I tried multiple strategies before landing on one that works but curious how you dealt with it.
I thought about cutting it back, but have not gotten there yet. What I am doing now is threading the end of the lace back under the top laces before I pull it tight and then finishing the tighten. This forces the laces to retain them selves.. Is this really obvious and I am just dense - or did you have a similar struggle?
02-27-2008, 06:46 PM
Actually even after 4 yrs I find the boots so tight that I loosen the laces so they don't flap around and I still have plenty of lateral control/feel
02-27-2008, 09:31 PM
Can you still apply forward pressure without the laces tight?
That was the first thing I noticed when going from the softer Connelly contour to the Contact. With the laces tight and the stiffness of the boot my first couple turns practically stood me up in the pre-turn.
But now that I am used to it I find I really like the advantage the stiffness gives me in providing pressure on the tip in the pre-turn...
02-27-2008, 09:48 PM
I have a crushed ankle that has been screwed back together, so I don't really have that problem, hence I can get away with the undone laces
05-01-2008, 08:49 PM
Just bought the F1X with double draft bindings..
I cant wait for water to get warm in Nor cal so I can try this ski out with double draft bindings. For anyone who hasnt seen these.. gone are the days of pushing and shoving with soap to get in the boot.. these are HINGED so you can just undo the locking hinge and OPEN the boot.. then close and lock.. tighten the laces and giddy-up
Anyone try these yet.. opinions?...
Also the Ski guru at the shop set up the ski so my back foot was slightly angled in.. says i'll get a better cut and more control in turns.. any comment?
05-01-2008, 09:02 PM
A buddy of mine has a set of hinged boots on his Goodee and he loves them. As for the angle thing, I wonder. But set up is always trial and error so post the results 8)
06-01-2008, 08:07 AM
From ski mag online: good read
Double boots or a rear toe plate?
Double boots or a rear toe plate? It seems the British pros favor the rear toe plate while others favor a rear boot. Do you find it's an advantage using an RTP or is it just preference? Also, do you rotate the RTP?
Statesville, North Carolina
Andy Mapple Says
Definitely rear toe plate. Those Brits know what they are doing! Just kidding. Not sure why many of the British skiers use the toe plate, maybe because we like to stay as dry as we can in the winter doing beach starts. There are advantages to both and I would not say one is really better than the other, just a preference. With the rear toe plate it gives a little more freedom to be in a more natural position to bend the knees and be a little more flexible in different situations. A skier with a rear toe will usually have more front foot pressure on an off side turn, but not as much power off the back of the turn. Rear boot skiers have in the last few years started to cant the rear boot to get a more natural position to be more flexible in the turns. There is definitely more security in the pull with two boots and more leverage available, but you have to be careful that the rear boot is not too stiff, otherwise you gain too much control through the rear foot and stop allowing the ski to run its designed path. Bottom line, it is really whatever works best for you. Good luck.
I got a Radar Senate a few weeks back and ordered them with the HO Shock boots. Yes they have come a long way. They do lace up but they are so comfortable! And I did angle my rear boot, not because I read anything about it but because it was an option and I thought it might be more comfortable. Well it was and the boots are great! They do lace up and I kid of like this system as you are allowed to create the fit you want and not have a boot like the ones of old that were just tight as h&ll!
07-06-2008, 11:07 PM
One theme in this thread that struck me was the security of the double boot...all-in or all-out. I too suffered a major hamstring injury as a Novice 4 years ago doing a one-foot-in start. Lost a year and a half of activities. On the recent ski ('05 HO Vengeance), went with the RTP for: a) convenience b) dock starts just after the ice melts c) familiarity. This weekend replaced the RTP with a second HO Animal boot. Result, for those who may be considering, is it definitely felt more secure. Didn't have to think about that tug on the ankle during the weak side turn. However, definitely did not ski as well. The weak side turn was much poorer, explainable by Andy Maples comments previously posted. I'll stay with this setup, but it'll take some adjusting of technique.
PS (Andy's comments about canting the rear boot makes alot of sense. Don't know where to go with that. Ages ago there was a one-ski downhill skier in a Warren Miller film. His rear foot was extremely canted. Man could he ski!).
07-09-2008, 11:07 AM
I have been skiing with RTP forever. Originally because the old outboards simply could not get us out of the water with both feet in. I fall alot and have never really had problems that I would relate to useing the RTP.
I also have pulled a couple of hamstrings that could probably be related to starting with one foot out, but were more a function of the amount of power applied at startup by the boat than anything. What I found is that to avoid that, if you are in an environment where most of the skiers are two footed starters, make sure the dirver knows you are a one footed starte and to go a little easier on the way out. This last hamstring pull was most likely the result of what the driver was expecting.
I have always ski with a rtp and started with both feet in the bindings. So I think i will try the double boot to keep my weight back.
You don't want your weight back! For turning you want to use that whole front edge of the ski.
I've never had an issue with my animals (dhr) bindings coming lose when I needed them to. The disadvantage is you have to soap up and jump more awkwardly when getting in. I think that I occasionally lose the back (left) on falls
On a rtp, I actually cut my foot on the fin holder once when I was playing with my left foot.
Most of my falls are slide outs, though I do sometimes go out the front, which tends to scare the boat, but I think that it is cool to flip across the water.
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