First 10 Hours: One problem after another…

[mtm_lsv]

I recently took delivery of a 2007 Mobius LSV equipped with the 325hp 5.7L, V8, EFI. It now sits on the lift with 10 hours on it. My best guess on spray date is mid to late April. I am very pleased with the design of the boat and the materials used but as it relates to construction/assembly, I have concerns.

To be fair to the dealer, they have been responsive to my issues. I will have the boat serviced this week and I expect they will address the issues I discuss below. Nevertheless, I now ask myself whether we are working out the kinks or is this the tip of the iceberg?

I am not posting to vent (though this is somewhat cathartic), I am trying to solicit feedback from other new owners to understand whether my experience is unique or more systemic. If any one has similar stories / suggestions / solutions, please share them.

Here is a log of my first 10 hours:

<1 Hour: During demo with the dealer, boat was filling with water. A filter in one of the ballast pumps was not properly installed therefore; the casing would not screw in all the way thus creating the leak. Fixed on site by the dealer rep. I consider it a minor issue and at the time, isolated.

@3 Hours: After a running fine for an hour and a brief stop on the water, engine started but ran very rough. It would die once a load was placed on the engine (engaging v-drive or accelerating with v-drive disengaged). After about 10 minutes of trouble shooting, would not start at all. More troubleshooting and 10-15 minutes later, would start but with rough idle and would die if load placed on the engine. 20 minutes later, started just fine and have not had a problem since. Both dealer and I were stumped and assumed it was an isolated issue until another new Mobius LSV with approximately 10 hours on it was stricken with the same problem at the marina where my boat is stored. Quite a site on Memorial weekend, two new LSV’s both lifeless (mine now with other issues, see 9 Hours below) and within 50 feet of each other.

4-6 Hours: Ignition switch falls out, never tightened down on the back behind dash. I hand tightened on site. Again, minor and assumed isolated. Turned on heater with dealer rep in boat but fan did not run. Dealer rep troubleshot on site but no quick fix. Dealer will address when I bring boat in for its first service. Again, minor, and isolated.

8 hours: First evening navigation. Turned on rear light bar. Factory package Roswell light bar. Would stay lit for 3-5 minutes, then kick off. After 2-3 minutes, I could reset and turn back on. After another 3-5 minutes, off again. Added to my warranty work list.

9 Hours: Operating normally then suddenly began to take on water. A lot and fast. Bilge light is on but not pumping any water. Quickly disconnect outtake on ballast bags and use ballast pumps to empty boat. Bilge light still on but not operating. Began looking for source of water and found a hose that was a part of the fresh water cooling system disconnected. All the water either cooling or meant to cool the engine was now in the boat. It all happened so fast the engine never overheated. Now the bilge. Disassembled and found a white piece of plastic/debris wedged in the rotating piece of the pump. Water sensor works but appears motor is cooked. I do not know when the bilge picked up this debris but when the boat was swamped a lot of debris filled the hull. Most of it was small crispy flakes, like chipped paint (or fiberglass). This debris is now everywhere. Once I get the water out of the hull, it needs a good vacuuming.

That’s my story. To be fair to Moomba, I am a new boat owner. I don’t know if I am breaking the boat in or if the boat is breaking me in. I have tried to objectively evaluate my actions around each event to understand how I may have contributed to the problem. I am open to any constructive criticism. Each event, some very minor and some more serious, appears manageable in isolation. You start stringing these events together however, and the frustration and fear of taking this boat on the water begin to build.

[SHANE1300]

Well it seems SC is having some problems with some of there craft. I personally am going through the same thing with my boat. It runs great in short distances, but when you make a long distance run the problem never fails to exist. It starts with rough idle, put a load on it and it dies, then from there it down hill. Wont start or if it does its back to rough idle and any load dies again...When you buy a boat and this happens to you as it did me the very first time you put it in water, it just throws up a very bad feeling. I spend a lot of time on Dale Hollow lake, TN and if you have visited there you can see there is a lot of space from marina to marina. And I have been towed several times due to this. But when they apply there computer, It shows no sign of anything being wrong. This happened to me again this past weekend in Dale Hollow again. My dealer is a wonderful guy and very awesome with his service so he is working to solve the problem as we speak.......

What we need to find out is, if there are more cases like these..And if so what they are doing to solve the problem. That way we can all be on our happy little ways back to the water and not the dry docks " service bays" having the time of our lives in the boats we love to use.....

I have found a quick fix to this ....It has helped me a few times instead of waiting for a hour or so before the boat runs again. helps when you are stranded at night or in a cove where no one else is around to tow you....

1. remove the engine cover
2. find fuel rail.. there should be a shrader valve there to release fuel line pressure.
3. release valve numerous times (with a towel under so fuel does not leak all over engine) its messy and smelly...
4. you may have to repeat it a few times
5. next thing you are up and running like nothing ever happened

6. Although it's embarrising when this happens at a marina and everyones looking at what you are doing..... :oops:


But other then that problem I love my boat....And know they will do whatever it takes to solve the problem :D :D :D :D

[moomba_armada]

:shock: I am shocked...I just hope I don´t have those problems since I don´t have an official service here..not Moomba nor Indmar..my only service will be to get the boat to anyone and if there is a problem I will have to pay it and dealer will refund me the payment...but since I haven´t had a good experience with this official spanish dealer and seeing all the problems you are having, I think that maybe, and after waiting for almost 9 months for my beloved Outback V ,(still waiting..yes,2008 model will be out just 2 months later,in august i think) maybe it is better I sell it still new and wrapped.. :cry: I hate to moan...but it has been a TOTAL PAIN.
The only good thing was the Skiers Choice crew, the attention I had from them, thanks Dan and Callie...but I think I can´t wait for so long and then realize I can have the same problems as this guy "mtm_lsv" and don´t have even the support from an official repairing professional service...I am scared...and even more reading these posts...there are a few..but with a Moomba´s service dealer close, would be safer...still not sure what to do...How many of you have had so many problems...do you think it is safe to run a boat without an official repairing service close?

[SHANE1300]

I dont think by any means you should sell your boat. They are GREAT boats...But it is like buying a car you will have a "BAD" apple. It is always going to happen know matter if it is a Supra, Moomba, Malibu, Master Craft.. It will happen... But if you read the board I dont see this happening, Except for the the person who posted this thread and myself..

So enjoy your your Moomba, Dont worry about it, we have those rare bad apples and they will resolve the issues to solve future occurences from happening....

[mtm_lsv]

Thanks to SHANE1300 for the troubleshooting procedure on the rough idle issue. Though I am not familiar with everything you outlined, I know my dealer rep will help fill in the blanks. BTW, what model do you have and do you have an approximate spray date?

[moomba_armada]

Maybe you are right Shane..I try to stay calm, but when I read things like this I do have concerns..mostly because of the distance from the US in case of problems..but I am sure that SC will support me if I need...
This long waiting is killing me... :roll:

[moomba_armada]

Hey Shane..BEAUTIFUL boat by the way..way slightly large pic maybe..I can´t read the posts :lol:

[SHANE1300]

ya i am going to shrink it as we speak it is awful large

[carsondoc]

mtm,
That's a nightmare 1st ten hours! It's all fixable and I sympathize with you going through all that crap. Sounds like your dealer is a good guy and will eventually make it right. However, if I'm Skier's Choice and I'm supposed to be lake-testing every boat before it leaves the factory, I want someones ass on this one. This is the kind of stuff that even a very rudimentary lake test would pick up. What's up at the factory? Hope they're not getting sloppy.

[gotmyboat]

It is a bit shocking. I have 75 hours on my Outback and haven't had a single problem. There is a lot less to go wrong on mine, however. I went without the heater, shower, or any ballast. These seem to be the things that give my friends issues. they seem to be the weakest link on a lot of boats. The engine problem is troublesome. Sounds like a vapor lock, but they're fuel injected. What kind of fuel are you using? Is it from the marina or from town?

Hope the issues get rectified quickly. Summer time is for carefree boating!!!

Dave

[mtm_lsv]

Fuel came from the marina. Other LSV owner also topped up fuel at same marina. The two incidents were seperated by 2 weeeks and I have fueled up there since with no lingering issues. The other LSV owner and I discussed fuel as a possible link yesterday. I made some general inquiries to the marina but as expected they didn't admit to any other reported problems (if there were any). I am keeping this in the back of mind however. Thanks for bringing it up.

[gotmyboat]

What was the octane rating? I have heard of people having problems with 89 or 91 octane when it gets to hot. Something about it vaporizing in the lines or fuel rail and causing vapor lock. It seems a little early in the summer for that though. I have only ever used 87 octane from stations around town without any performance issues. Just another thought. It is clearly a fuel issue!!

Again, good luck and keep us posted.

Dave

[mtm_lsv]

My best recollection is 91. I will confirm and post. Outside temperature was 75-80.

[gotmyboat]

Please bear with this long quote from a patent on fuel injection systems.

"A fuel injection system for internal combustion engines with multiple fuel injection valves. The fuel injection system includes a dimensionally stable fuel manifold distributor with nipple plug connections, by means of which the fuel is directed to the individual injection valves. The fuel manifold distributor is disposed over the injection valves and is pitched with respect to the horizontal, with a fuel injection connection located at the lowest point of said manifold and connected to the pressure side of a fuel pump, with a return line connection provided at the highest point of the fuel manifold distributor leading to a return flow line, over which a portion of the fuel may be redirected to a pressure regulator and from there to the suction side of a fuel tank to which the fuel pump is connected. The fuel manifold distributor design described here makes it possible for the vapor lock bubbles that are formed to enter the return flow line after the hot internal combustion engine has been switched off, and to be directed to the suction side of the fuel pump when said internal combustion engine is restarted, thus making it possible to avoid problems in starting. "

And here is a reply from Larry at Indmar to a question about fuel returning from the rail. Again excuse the long quote.

"The new engines have returnless fuel rails. There is a supply line from the tank to the pump and a return from the pump bracket back to the tank. The fuel pressure regulator is at the pump not at the fuel rail.The outlet side of the fuel pump has a single line that goes from the pump to the fuel rail. If the sensor for a flow meter is instaled in that line it should read all of the fuel that leaves the pump and enters the the fuel rails. The only way fuel can get out of the fuel rails is through the fuel injectors so the meter would read only the fuel that is actually delivered to the injectors and burned in the cylinders. The return from the pump bracket to the tank will not be measured by the meter.

Older engines have a fuel return from the rail to the pump and a flow meter would not be able function properly.

Engine Nut"

I'm not a mechanic or a detective, but it seems that these EFI engines are more susceptible to vapor lock than I previously thought. Hope this helps. you might try using a lower octane. Also, any fuel stabilizer that might have been in your tank is basically kerosene, and could contribute to vapor lock.

Wow, that was long. As before, good luck!!

Dave

[moomba_armada]

I guess I should ask Larry what could happen here ..the lower octane we can get is 95 :?

[JoeTechie]

Although this is a LOT of crap to deal with - mostly all very minor problems. All but one probably stem from mediocre Quality Control at the factory and dealer level and/or Transportation problems.

* Ballast pump not installed properly or vibrated lose
* Switch not tightened properly or vibrated lose
* Dead Heater Fan
* Short or overheat in Light Bar
* Lose fitting on Fresh Water system or Vibrated lose
* Debris in bildge

I can tell you that all the lose fittings are common. I do not think that SC has enough checks for making sure they are all tight and the workers seem to be doing them too quickly. I think they are suffering a growth spurt and it seems to be manifesting itself as poor QC. Also some of this can be attributed to travel delivery vibrations. Dealers should check more, but boats have a lot of little things to check.

Luckily these are very simple and very timy problems all easy to mend and will probably never re-occur.

EVERY new boat has junk in bildge... it is a factor in building them - they are not constructed in cleanrooms like pc processors - stuff gets down there and the basic vacuum of the hull does not get it all. Dealers should do this as well, but it takes getting a bunch of water in there to slosh around and dislodge all those little flakes of fiberglass, carpet, plastic, metal, etc and then they can be shop-vaced up.

The rough running is a dealer issue to make sure they see and can replicate. Indmar makes a great engine package and they stand behind it.

Your problems will be solved. Think of it this way... you are probably having all the problems right now and all are tiny. could be a good omen.

:)

-Joe

[aintskeered]

On the Rough idle after letting the boat set for a bit and then dying when adding power. .... Been there fought that really frustrating. I spoke with indmar and the dealer and the electronic manfacturer, along with two very sharp mechanics near hear. It sounds exactly like what I was fighting. Which I found to be vapor lock and this was hapening at 55-65 degrees.

Dealer and indmar said it sounded like "winter fuel blends" I checked with both supplier from where I purchase fuel and we dont change blends here.
I bought a couple cans of Componet Cooler from radio shack and was able to isolate the fuel pump was vapor locking(cooled the fuel pump lines). Confirmed by a fuel psi tester on the shrader vale for the fuel rail. In talking with the sharp mechanics local they recomended moving the fuel pump as close to the fuel tank as possiable, Like all EFI trucks are in the tank.

I will talk to the dealer about this tomarrow. In the mean time. Run the blowers for about 10 minutes after you shut off the motor and I have not had any more locks.(just a paine to run back down and turn off the blower) If it dose lock bleeding of the fuel rail several times as discussed earley will eventuly clear the block, but messy!

[mtm_lsv]

Thanks for all the feedback, suggestions and encouragement. There is a definate theme regarding the rough idle. All this will help me help the dealer resolve my issues. I also concur that while a lot of little issues have popped up all at once, most (if not all) will likely be fixed by the dealer and never seen again. BTW, throughout all of this, my dealer has been excellent to work with. Their work is not yet done but to date, they have exceeded my expectations and kept my faith in SC and Moomba. My dealer rep should be canonized into "Moomba" sainthood! I'll post updates when relevant.

[Buttafewcoe]

It is a bit shocking. I have 75 hours on my Outback and haven't had a......
.
Yeah, over 191 hrs on my '04, with very minor issues, mostly operator inflicted.
.
B

[SHANE1300]

These boats are great and glad everyone has had good luck with them. unfortunatly we are having small issues with them right now. Maybe SC should design a new way to keep the fuel cool to prevent this from happening. But what ever it may be, I am sure they will solve our issues. Even though it Seems to be happening to more and more people....
:wink:

[SHANE1300]

of Course the first thing they are trying to tell me that its winter blend fuel.. NO NOT IT... so now it is the fuel octane? I understand higher octane burns faster than lower, it should not matter what octane you are running.. The point is this should not be happening either if its 87 or 93 octane. :x

[smokedog2]

Someone had this problem awhile back and it was a plugged or bent vent line to the gas tank causing the "vapor lock" actually a vacuum lock.

I'd check that first.

SD2

[JoeTechie]

Shane,

Actually Higher octane retards explosion at higher compression levels allowing higher performance engines to work more efficiently. It has little to do with the fuels flamability. If anything, 87 is more easily combustable than 93.


European Octane ratings are in RON vs EKI or RMS - so 95 other places is 91 US.

-J

[lowdrag]

To the first two posters, your problems sound exactly like what happened with my new boat last year. It was indeed vapor lock. So far every fuel delievery component from the tank to and including the fuel pump have been replaced. Some of the repairs were made late last year and I haven't had the time to get the boat out this year to see if it's cure the problem. Mine got so bad that it was pretty much a certainty that it would not start after sitting for any period of time with a hot motor. I ended up have to diagnose the problem by myself by going to an automotive parts store and finding a fuel pressure guage that would fit the nipple on the fuel system. The results were clearly vapor lock. For anyone who's interested I have video to document the situation and you can hear the rough running motor and see that the pressure in the fuel system is very low when the problem is happening. The last thing that was done with my boat was having the fuel pump replaced. I'm hoping that it was just a weak pump and that the swap will correct the situation but I can't be sure yet. The best solution I had to remedy the problem at the time was to use the bleed off valve on the fuel pressure guage. Whenever the motor vapor locked, I'd have to run the hose from the bleed off valve into a beer bottle and purge the system. When the boat was vapor locking the line would purge mostly vapor and extremely hot fuel.

[SHANE1300]

Thank you all for your info.. I guess i am going to have to go buy a fuel pressure gauge and get some video of the problems myself..This is sad that we have to do this to our new boats. For some reason you would think SC would be finding a way to cure these problems as they keep resurfacing with more and more boats it seems. And then the dealers never want to believe what you think it may be. But What can you do other than prove them wrong :P :lol: And that is my next mission.......

[JoeTechie]

I'm sure both Indmar and SC who both have reps reading these boards are interested in the problem and resolving it.

Lowdrag - did you send your video to Larry ?

These are exactly the kinds of things they want to know about. Fixing one boats particular gremlins are a nice thing for them to do for us, but knowing about a possibly larger more widespread problem is what we can do for them.

-Joe

[SHANE1300]

I am sure they will do what they need to solve the issues.. It just gets frustrating knowing your boat is not going to run when you take it out... I will do what i can to help solve these issue as well as i can with them...

[moomba_armada]

Thanks for the info about the european octane grade,Joe. Makes me feel calmer about the vapor lock.

[mtm_lsv]

I agree with Joe, you would expect SC and Indmar to me monitoring these boards and would be interested in addressing the problems to allay our concerns. I would welcome their participation in the discussion. hint, hint...

[aintskeered]

We got back from the dealer last night about 11:45pm...... Gotta love the long night drives. While looking at ways to correct the vapor lock that was happining with our 07 lsv. They moved a couple of lines/ hoses that were laying right against the fuel pump. two oil lines from the filter, The connection line from the R&L exhaust manifolds and another which i can not rember what went too. tie wraps and twisting fittings to make this all happen also a wire loom on the oil filter lines. I dont know if all or any of this will fix the problem but any time you can reduce the temps on the vacume or static side of the fuel pump you are heading in the right direction. I will find out this weekend if it helped. I wish I would have thought or noticed this myself as this could be a quick and easy fix.

[SHANE1300]

Well i did some research and i found that in the owners manual in the trouble shooting area. It clearly states that if the motor will not run that there is a vapor lock issue as well as others...So obviously this is a problem and they continue to sell these with no remorse of the customers buying the product...They should fix these issues..Dont you think?

Here is the page that states this issue... :evil: So why do the dealers keep saying this is not the problem? Thats what i was told all last year, It is not vapor locking. Its something else, But not sure what!!!!

It is #6 on the left hand side sorry the pic is not clear...

http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o198/SHANE1300/SP32-20070601-105542.jpg[/img]

[wakeboard dad]

I did not read all the posts so I appologize if someone already mentioned this.

Your dealer should discover most of the problems you have stated in their prep and test before you ever get the boat. At the very least, if your dealer is local he should go out with you the first time the boat is in the water.

I work in the business, not wake boats, but we lake test every boat before it is delivered just so we can get a leg up on any potential problems.

I have an '04 LSV and love it.

Moomba's are a great value!