Using Zero Off GPS on the river - 22 Mojo

[uniwarking]

Hey all, I'd appreciate some help understanding how best to use Zero Off GPS. I was kind of on the fence about selecting this feature when shopping in 2021 but with 2022 it became base equipment. We tow quite a bit and boat on lakes, reservoirs and rivers. The first few times we were out, we were just on our local lake and things worked great. This past weekend, we went to the Mississippi, so this was the first time we've really used the boat in any real type of current. The current where we were was about 1.2 mph and the only way to achieve a clean surfable wave was to manually adjust our set speed of 11.4 to 12.6 going downstream and 10.2 going upstream (offsetting 1.2 mph for the current speed). Is there some "river mode" setting that I'm not seeing?

I also have the Paddlewheel backup (Paddlewheel, Depth Finder, Water Temp) option on my boat. Is there any way to switch between the GPS speed control and paddlewheel? I believe with the backup, it will switch if it sees variance of speed over a certain amount and time. I'm not sure. None of this is called out in the display or boat manual. Side note - inclinometer and draft sensor calibration instructions are called out in the display menu for those that have wondered how to do those.

Our favorite place to surf is a certain stretch of river that we typically go back and forth on so it's kind of a pain to constantly change set speed depending on direction... especially with everything else going on (and math is hard on weekends :P).

I appreciate any insight you all might have. If there isn't anything embedded in the software... this would be a great add!

On a similar note, on the ride back to the dock (about 10 miles), I noticed that my actual and set speeds did not match, the maps screen was just blank white and the satellite status showed 0 (I think it showed 12~16 earlier in the day). When I got back to the dock, we power cycled the battery switch and things went back to working. I'm assuming something errored out on the Zero-Off system and my backup paddle wheel took over? I never saw any error messages.

Thanks!

[uniwarking]

It's not often I hear crickets on this forum... are there not many folks using ZeroOff pre 2022? Does my post not make sense?

[TXSurf4]

It makes sense and there are tons of us using ZeroOff GPS but I feel like most people are boating on lakes so current speeds are not a concern. There are a few guys on here that do surf on rivers but they aren't on here as much as they used to be. That being said I think there is a river mode somewhere in the settings but IIRC it is something where you have to tell it each time you turn and head in the other direction whether that is with or against the current. If that is the case it might just be easier to adjust your set speed each time as opposed to having to access the settings menu each time. I will be at my boat on Friday and can poke around in the menu to see if it is actually there.

[HFarr]

There was a post about this several months ago. I can't recall what it was called, but there were MANY comments and explanations of physics and relativity involved. It was like being back in a Highschool science class LOL! I think there was some discussion about paddlewheel being a better use for rivers, but I don't recall how to "command" the boat to use one over the other. Maybe someone else will recall the discussion.

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[RUGER761]

Paddle wheel works the best on the river, but to my knowledge Moomba doesnt have a way to switch to a river mode only Supra. Yes your method is correct for a GPS system you have to offset for the current flow in order for the wave or wake to be correct. So up river it feels like the boat isnt moving, down river it feels like your flying relative to the bank. Kind of a pain to check the current flow and off set each time but thats really the only nice way to make it happen with a GPS system. Most people if they know they are going to be on the river the majority of the time wont order a boat with zero off for that reason.

[uniwarking]

Paddle wheel works the best on the river, but to my knowledge Moomba doesnt have a way to switch to a river mode only Supra. Yes your method is correct for a GPS system you have to offset for the current flow in order for the wave or wake to be correct. So up river it feels like the boat isnt moving, down river it feels like your flying relative to the bank. Kind of a pain to check the current flow and off set each time but thats really the only nice way to make it happen with a GPS system. Most people if they know they are going to be on the river the majority of the time wont order a boat with zero off for that reason.

Yeah, I was on the fence about it - but with it becoming the base option in 2022 the decision was made for me. It sure seems like this Supra feature should be brought to Moomba with us not really having a choice of what we wanted... and I'd opted to add the backup paddlewheel assuming it could be used (not sure what it's doing now besides plugging a hole in the boat lol)

[Holdmybeer]

If you don't have river mode but have all the hardware and this is the new standard from Skier's, I would be calling and asking about software updates to make this work.

Yes, you can adjust but for the cost of these why should you have to. Adding a button to switch between 2 different inputs for speed is not a big change to the overall programming.

[RUGER761]

.... and I'd opted to add the backup paddlewheel assuming it could be used (not sure what it's doing now besides plugging a hole in the boat lol)

Its a triducer so its a depth finder, temp sensor and paddlewheel all it one. So while its there not sure if its even functional or not, wired up to work. That's a question for Moomba engineers on that one.

[uniwarking]

Here are the options currently on the builder, and the one I selected:

Depth Finder and Water Temp (No Paddlewheel) +$360
Paddlewheel backup (Paddlewheel, Depth Finder,Water Temp) +$400
Paddlewheel backup (Paddlewheel Only) +$290

[TXSurf4]

Its a triducer so its a depth finder, temp sensor and paddlewheel all it one. So while its there not sure if its even functional or not, wired up to work. That's a question for Moomba engineers on that one.

So here is a post Matt Brown made a while back that would lead me to believe that if you have a paddle wheel present it is wired up as a back up to the GPS

"hey guys! Its me again, Matt Brown. I have been trying to keep up with this chain and I have noticed there are lots of confusion about some of the new 2022 Moomba software features. So to try and help, I will go back to my old "tips of the day" where hopefully I can give you guys some info in easily digestible sections. So, without further ado....

Random tips of the day (2022 Moomba software) - paddlewheel fault

In the post above, you will notice one of the new features is a new "paddlewheel fault". We call it that on our development pages in the software. As you can see, when this "fault" occurs, it shows up on the screen as a small icon on the bottom right that reads "Cruise disabled - No vessel speed". The reason we added this logic is because for 2022 ZeroOff is standard and the paddlewheel is optional. In the past, if you had ZeroOff then you still had paddlewheel as a backup if you lost GPS. However, without paddlewheel backup, we had to add logic in case you lost GPS. While very unlikely, if you did lose vessel speed and cruise was engaged, it might be possible for the engine to increase rpm to try and maintain a vessel speed that was not present. So, the way the new logic works is it is constantly monitoring rpm and vessel speed. The default settings are if the engine is on, and the RPM is going over 1800 and if the system sees a 0.0 speed for at least 50 milliseconds, then the system will turn off cruise, give you the popup and reduce RPM to 80% of the RPM that the engine is currently running. However, there are a few times when you might need to adjust these settings. For example, if you are running paddlewheel only, then it might be possible for the system to "lose signal" for 50 ms. That is a very fast period. If you have this popup, you might want to go into the development pages and adjust that setting from 50ms to 150 ms or maybe longer. Every paddlewheel is different but if you have to adjust it higher than 250ms (1/4 of a second), then you might need to replace your paddlewheel. Another situation that might not need adjustment, but rather education is if you turn on engine and immediately try to accelerate. The GPS puck is powered from the ignition circuit. So, it takes about 30 seconds from the time you turn key on for the GPS puck to lock in on speed. If you turn key on and immediately accelerate, it is possible that the system might not lock in GPS speed and in that case, it would not engage cruise because it sees 0.0. In that case, watching the screen can show you that. If you accelerate and the speed shows 0.0, then you are definitely going to get that popup. In that case, you might just need to wait a few seconds longer before you accelerate. The truth is you wouldn't want cruise to engage like that anyways. Not sure if you have ever seen this, but we have had that feedback before of the boat accelerates, then cruise takes over and the engine slows way down. That can happen for the same reason. If you accelerate with no speed, then speed kicks in, it can make the cruise feel very awkward for a little bit.

Ok, hope that helps. If you are not familiar with the "development pages", then ask your dealer for help. They can adjust these settings for you if necessary. In the next few days I will try to write up similar tips for "Leak detection" and "Autofill". These seem to be very confusing for some people but I think once you guys understand it, you will love these new features. Hope you guys and girls are having a great summer!!"

[Holdmybeer]

This is a good safety feature and explanation of the system. The 2 sensors working together is the only way to use the paddlewheel.

From this write up:
1) GPS only has safety featured so the boat doesn't run away in cruise
2) Paddlewheel backup is just that - backs up the GPS if signal is lost
3) The system is not designed to switch dominate input from each other.

Supra is capable of this and with the added cost to add the backup sensor in the Moomba the copy paste code should be included. Just saying SC dropped the ball here and could easily fix with a software update to include "River Mode".

I only have the paddlewheel and thought about updating to GPS but won't for this exact reason. Yes cruise will surge going over waves but adjusting for current while surfing would be a hassle. My wife would not drive for me if that was the case.

[TXSurf4]

This is a good safety feature and explanation of the system. The 2 sensors working together is the only way to use the paddlewheel.

From this write up:
1) GPS only has safety featured so the boat doesn't run away in cruise
2) Paddlewheel backup is just that - backs up the GPS if signal is lost
3) The system is not designed to switch dominate input from each other.

Supra is capable of this and with the added cost to add the backup sensor in the Moomba the copy paste code should be included. Just saying SC dropped the ball here and could easily fix with a software update to include "River Mode".

I only have the paddlewheel and thought about updating to GPS but won't for this exact reason. Yes cruise will surge going over waves but adjusting for current while surfing would be a hassle. My wife would not drive for me if that was the case.

Why would you need the GPS operational in order for the paddlewheel to work?

[Holdmybeer]

Why would you need the GPS operational in order for the paddlewheel to work?

I'm not saying you need GPS for the paddlewheel to work.
I'm saying the paddlewheel only works to keep the speedo working when the GPS doesn't work.

It would be nice to see both inputs at the same time. Then chose the one that works for the situation.

Lake surfing = zero current
GPS 10.8mph
Paddlewheel 10.8

River surfing against current
GPS 12.2mph
Paddlewheel 10.8mph
Current 1.4mph

If Moomba new standard is GPS and you can get the paddlewheel triducer back up then adding river mode should be standard also. This is my argument.

[uniwarking]

If Moomba new standard is GPS and you can get the paddlewheel triducer back up then adding river mode should be standard also. This is my argument.

I have to agree here. The idea of a river mode certainly isn’t new. If a boat has both a GPS and a paddle wheel you’d think you’d be able to select your speed source. Better yet, the boat looks for variance between the paddle wheel and gps… and the boat knows you’re on a river and what your heading is… and it’s smart enough to adjust accordingly. Six figure boats, basic functionality for river users. Hopefully this is on the horizon….


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[KnoxMojo]

Supra did away with river mode after 2018. I have it, tried to use it, but was kinda a pain, just adjust speed accordingly. To your point about boats being smart enough to know they are on a river, flow rates change almost daily, no way that would work. But yes, I have asked many many times to be able to select gps or paddlewheel. They program all logic to work with GPS. So if I unplug my puck, all I get is speed, it won't engage cruise control and therefore won't let you activate your surf system or enable auto launch for wakeboarding. It is frustrating at times, but you get used to it and most of the time it is only .2-.5 mph for wakeboarding or surfing.

[HFarr]

You just have to feel what the right speed is. Use The Force!

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[zabooda]

Zero Off is a GPS speed control based solely on input from satellites and engine management systems. It is based on the speed you are traveling across the surface of the water; therefore, there is no requirement for skier weight, crew weight, XK, PX, or even any kind of wind adjustment. Must-Visit Us: https://www.pilgrimagetour.in/

The GPS provides speed across the earth (ground speed) so any river current will affect the speed to which your traveling across the water. The paddlewheel would be the device to be used on rivers. On lakes, either one could be used. If you are running a straight line on a river, the differential between the paddlewheel and the GPS would give you the river current speed.

[sandm]

our old tige 22ve had gps and on the fox river in green bay we had to adjust depending on direction. never a big deal. we also noticed that the wave was better downstream than up. not sure why but know there's a TON of physics that would answer the question.

[TXSurf4]

So confirmed that there is no “River mode” anywhere in the settings or in the development pages. Seems like the only option is to adjust your set speed when turning and heading the opposite direction.


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[uniwarking]

Thanks for checking… that’s what I’d found as well. Hopefully an option to use the paddle wheel (if installed) will be made available eventually. For now, we’ll just do what we can with manual adjustments and feel.


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[SONIC]

Seeing as supra removed River Mode in 2018 and it hasn't come back I doubt they will ever add an update to the Moomba's to enable it.

Unfortunately my money is on the fact that most people are too stupid to understand what it does, and if you use it at the wrong time it can make things act weird meaning more dealer visits and angry customers. Easier/better business to annoy the few of us who would use it vs the masses who don't understand it.

My $.02

[trayson]

It seems like the vast majority of riders are on rivers. I am exactly the opposite. I love my paddlewheel perfect pass. I'm having issues with my system now and from my understanding, star gazer perfect pass has a river mode (aka, paddlewheel).

I've been in a boat that lost gps signal going under a bridge. The boat accelerated like a rocket to the speed where the throttle lever was. It was bad news!

I can't speak for zero off, but from my understanding, PP will still let you use a river mode if you have their GPS based system.

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