New 2022 Makai pricing

[JimLevin]

Howdy, everyone. Long-time reader, first-time poster.

Does anyone have any insight on pricing 2022 Makai's from dealers right now? What they ought to cost, what a fair to good dealer discount might be, what should/should not be included, etc.? Found a boat from a dealer in the mid-west (I'll leave dealer annonymous) who told me about a boat that is about to come in, that they ordered back in Dec. 2021, but I have no way to know if the pricing is fair or overpriced or what. It has a like $10,000 price "adjustment" for 2022 that has me baffled. Dealer was very nice, I just don't know these prices.

Looked at used ones but for little more, seems a new one may be the way to go, if the pricing is ok.

Anybody have any thoughts on this or where to look or even what you paid (approximately) (--is this rude to even ask??)? It has the base engine, 3.0 wave, several extras, pro tower, surf pipe. Not asking for a msrp breakdown by any means, just an idea of what I should be looking at for a fairly well-loaded option Makai. I did find a site of seedealercost.com/marine/ but I am not sure how accurate that is, as to what the dealer is making and could come down to. This will be my first new boat ever and I am excited but nervouse about pricing in this market. I know the dealer has to make money...just don't need them making all their money on me! haha

Thanks for any thoughts

[vdubnick]

should be whatever the moomba website says plus whatever silly fees the dealer charges... mine had a $4500 dealer charge. I only got a 3% discount.

[dyrmz134]

Howdy, everyone. Long-time reader, first-time poster.

Does anyone have any insight on pricing 2022 Makai's from dealers right now? What they ought to cost, what a fair to good dealer discount might be, what should/should not be included, etc.? Found a boat from a dealer in the mid-west (I'll leave dealer annonymous) who told me about a boat that is about to come in, that they ordered back in Dec. 2021, but I have no way to know if the pricing is fair or overpriced or what. It has a like $10,000 price "adjustment" for 2022 that has me baffled. Dealer was very nice, I just don't know these prices.

Looked at used ones but for little more, seems a new one may be the way to go, if the pricing is ok.

Anybody have any thoughts on this or where to look or even what you paid (approximately) (--is this rude to even ask??)? It has the base engine, 3.0 wave, several extras, pro tower, surf pipe. Not asking for a msrp breakdown by any means, just an idea of what I should be looking at for a fairly well-loaded option Makai. I did find a site of seedealercost.com/marine/ but I am not sure how accurate that is, as to what the dealer is making and could come down to. This will be my first new boat ever and I am excited but nervouse about pricing in this market. I know the dealer has to make money...just don't need them making all their money on me! haha

Thanks for any thoughts

I got mine for slightly less than MSRP, then added some things on (tint , rear bag upgrade , surf pipe) that got it back at MSRP with taxes, etc.

No idea what's happening with '23's. My dealer didn't have any other 22's for sale. This one sort of fell into my lap when the original buyer backed out at the last minute.

[JimLevin]

I was told at least a 9% increase in prices to Moomba for 2023 vs. the current 2022 models, by this same dealer. Possibly as much as 13% increase in price.

[mgswake]

If you can get it at or slightly below MSRP that is kind of a win in this market. It is crazy but the dealers don’t really need to offer discounts because people are lining up to pay asking price. The 2022 up charge was across all boat companies I saw on the Malibu and Nautique pages dealers were coming back and asking for more money on boats that were already ordered at agreed on prices. Just a really tough time to buy right now. Moomba tends to keep there costs lower so the discounts weren’t as high, but there is a thread about the pricing I will try to find it.

[mgswake]

https://forum.moomba.com/showthread.php?36174-Early-predictions-for-2022

See post number 141

[JimLevin]

https://forum.moomba.com/showthread.php?36174-Early-predictions-for-2022

See post number 141

Thanks a million. Yes this helps. Again, I know these things ain't free, just want to know the deal is reasonable for us both.

[mgswake]

The only caveat is pricing may have changed again since then with demand and markets. Also, prices tend to peak during the summer. At least gives you a general starting point and idea of msrp/sales price.

[dyrmz134]

If you can get it at or slightly below MSRP that is kind of a win in this market. It is crazy but the dealers don’t really need to offer discounts because people are lining up to pay asking price. The 2022 up charge was across all boat companies I saw on the Malibu and Nautique pages dealers were coming back and asking for more money on boats that were already ordered at agreed on prices. Just a really tough time to buy right now. Moomba tends to keep there costs lower so the discounts weren’t as high, but there is a thread about the pricing I will try to find it.

Agreed. My salesman gave me the first shot at mine when it came available. If I hadn't jumped on it, I'm sure it would be long gone at asking price.

[JimLevin]

Ok fellas. Need the hive mind thoughts. Seems the new loaded out 2023 Makai’s w/400 engine are about $135,000 after discounts, at boat shows but includes 7 year engine warranty. Found a couple of 2019 Supra 450’s, one an SE and a SL for a little less, both about $125k, 280hrs & 450hrs respectively. What say the group as to satisfaction and resale on a 4 year old Supra vs. a 2023 loaded out Makai? (Note we mostly ride, surf, and tube, rarely wakeboard). We plan to use it for at least 3 or 4 years, then maybe upgrade.

Obviously the Supra is gonna be out of warranty but the Makai won’t. I am just debating a new boat vs. a used 4 year old boat.

Seems the Supras are still, listed at least, at the price they sold for new and might come down a bit, as those are just the list prices.

Thoughts, advice, objections?

[larry_arizona]

2019 SE and SL > 2023 Makai as far as tech and luxury. 2019’s should still have a year of powertrain warranty and maybe more as they came with 5 to 7 years depending when it was bought.

The powertrain on these boats are robust, you really don’t hear of too many engine/trans or v drive failures and those hours are not high at all.

Pocket the $10k savings and apply in case you have an out of warranty situation in the next 4 years.

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[HFarr]

See if this link works. It has some of the going prices for recent used Makai's.
https://www.onlyinboards.com/Used-ski-boats.aspx?PartMakers=true&Distance=100&YearFrom=2020&YearTo=2023&OmitNoPrice=1&MakerName=5&Model=445

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[sandm]

I'd jump on a lower hour used supra if it was my coin. 400+hrs is high for my personal taste but I'd look at something in the 200 range. Larry is right that the drivetrain is pretty bulletproof but depending on care, 400+ can start to show some age on upholstery and the little things going wrong.
I shy'ed away from supra in the past as the boats didn't really surf as well as some others but in the last 5-6 years, supra has REALLY upped their hulls and the SL I surfed last summer was amazing.

on the resale topic, it's pretty apparent with the number listed on OI that sales appear to be softening and I'd not want to be in a 2023 at this point with dealers still commanding either msrp or single digit discounts and all the other BS charges that have worked their way into the deals over the last 3 years. all imo :)

[Holdmybeer]

So....I bought the 5 yr old boat over new in 2020 before things got out of hand. Interest rates were low and I didn't have to finance for +20yrs. This was a huge factor for me and now after a few years of ownership and self maintenance I'm still ahead.

Pros: kept money in your pocket, still having fun, don't get too excited over spills/crumbs/etc., used extra money for boards, vest, ropes and lake vacations.

Cons: No warranty. Having to fix yourself or pay $$. Missing tech (pro side less to go wrong) wear and tear from previous ownership.

As said, power train is not a concern. These things are rock solid and easy to work on (hard to reach sometimes). The hull, interior, and electronics would be my warranty items if at all. However it's your money. Do you want a new boat with less luxury or a gently used one with higher grade items? It's the Toyota vs Lexus question....good luck!

P.S. I want a Supra after having my Mojo.

[MJHSupra]

Supra had a big change in 2018 with the revised surf system and software. The SA and SL (first year) were awesome. Any boat that I had the chance of riding, surf or wakeboarding, were dialed in and great to ride on.


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[Guppydriver]

Supra...all day.

Especially if you can bargain a little bit more. Remember, interest rates are higher than they have been in a while and that could be to your negotiating advantage. If you plan on upgrading to a new boat in a few years anyway, might as well make THAT one the new boat purchase.

Also.. I don't like the Makai with a 400. I don't live at sea level so I'm biased, but that's way too big of a boat for a 400 IMO.

[HFarr]

Supra...all day.

Especially if you can bargain a little bit more. Remember, interest rates are higher than they have been in a while and that could be to your negotiating advantage. If you plan on upgrading to a new boat in a few years anyway, might as well make THAT one the new boat purchase.

Also.. I don't like the Makai with a 400. I don't live at sea level so I'm biased, but that's way too big of a boat for a 400 IMO.I have a Makai with a 400, and upgraded WM bags. I can honestly say I have no power issues even with almost 5K of water and 10 people in the boat. Mostly surf all the time. I have the 15.5 x15 prop and am only about 237 ft above sea level however.

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[Hayden]

Also.. I don't like the Makai with a 400. I don't live at sea level so I'm biased, but that's way too big of a boat for a 400 IMO.


I have a Makai with a 400, and upgraded WM bags. I can honestly say I have no power issues even with almost 5K of water and 10 people in the boat. Mostly surf all the time. I have the 15.5 x15 prop and am only about 237 ft above sea level however.


Hfarr, what pitch do you normally run at? What are you setting your wake plate at? I'm amazed that elevation, me being at 3k, (-9% power), you being at sea level, could make that much of a difference between my boat and yours. If you're taking 5k water/lead ballast plus 10 mixed kids/adults, (say, another 1500-2000 lbs), and you're still using the stock 15.5x15 OJ??? Seems crazy to me that altitutde would be that much of a factor. If you have your wake plate at +25, or you're running 8 or 9 degree of pitch then I could see it.

I can't visualize what losing 9% power is like in this scenario. Is it 1mph per 5k lbs ballast or 1mph per 0.5 degree of pitch.

Things I think about.....

[larry_arizona]

Hfarr, what pitch do you normally run at? What are you setting your wake plate at? I'm amazed that elevation, me being at 3k, (-9% power), you being at sea level, could make that much of a difference between my boat and yours. If you're taking 5k water/lead ballast plus 10 mixed kids/adults, (say, another 1500-2000 lbs), and you're still using the stock 15.5x15 OJ??? Seems crazy to me that altitutde would be that much of a factor. If you have your wake plate at +25, or you're running 8 or 9 degree of pitch then I could see it.

I can't visualize what losing 9% power is like in this scenario. Is it 1mph per 5k lbs ballast or 1mph per 0.5 degree of pitch.

Things I think about.....

What pitch do you run? Once I hit 10, the load is exponential. 8.5-9.5, no problem.

But at 10, the wave is obnoxiously big.

SA400 16x13.9 1000feet heavy crew.

Greater than 10, I think the prop angle is fighting the boat and all efficiency is lost.


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[HFarr]

I generally run anywhere from 10 mph to 11.5 mph and 10-15 on the wake plate depending on which of my kids are back there. Sometimes 22 degrees , and sometimes 0 when they ask for a really tall wave. My pitch is generally around 8. Sometimes a bit more or less depending on speed and who is back there. That seems to make a good wave. I have to be honest, I generally don't use
Autowake. And yes I have the stock 15.5x 15 oj surf prop. 1.76 trans.

I have never had it at any other higher elevation lakes, so I can't help with that part of the question.

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[Hayden]

What pitch do you run? Once I hit 10, the load is exponential. 8.5-9.5, no problem.

But at 10, the wave is obnoxiously big.

SA400 16x13.9 1000feet heavy crew.

Greater than 10, I think the prop angle is fighting the boat and all efficiency is lost.


We run light crew, usually 2 kids, 2-4 adults (one of whom is surfing). We have ocassional days where we get a big crew out but those are few and far between.

For any rider heavier than say, ~220 lbs, I've found that 10 deg pitch / 11mph is the most forgiving because of how much push it gives them. They stay on the wave longer and they learn quicker. A big frustration for me as the driver is seeing a big dude, who's had his first 10 or 20 pulls, and is starting to get the hang of it, washout because the wave didn't have enough push. For anyone below that weight I run 9.5 deg pitch for a good balance of push/length. With lighter women or kids, under say, ~140 lbs, I've gone down to 9 deg for more length.

I run wakeplate at 0 for reg and 15 for goofy. Fill ballast to 100%, move people/lead around to hit the numbers I want. I use Autowake for diagnostics only, (showing me the pitch/roll values).

I agree with not going above 10 degrees; RPM's go above 4500, no gains and you can usually see the fuel disappearing in real time.

[Hayden]

I generally run anywhere from 10 mph to 11.5 mph and 10-15 on the wake plate depending on which of my kids are back there. Sometimes 22 degrees , and sometimes 0 when they ask for a really tall wave. My pitch is generally around 8. Sometimes a bit more or less depending on speed and who is back there. That seems to make a good wave. I have to be honest, I generally don't use
Autowake. And yes I have the stock 15.5x 15 oj surf prop. 1.76 trans.

I have never had it at any other higher elevation lakes, so I can't help with that part of the question.


Running 8 degree pitch explains part of it for sure and the higher altitude/power loss on my side probably makes up the rest.

[mjb929rr]

Altitude is a killer for boats. Our local dealer won’t order a makai without a 450 in it. I’ll be honest our new sl has the 575 and it is barely adequate in Pueblo, altitude 5k feet but density altitude is 8-10k in the summer.

[larry_arizona]

Altitude is a killer for boats. Our local dealer won’t order a makai without a 450 in it. I’ll be honest our new sl has the 575 and it is barely adequate in Pueblo, altitude 5k feet but density altitude is 8-10k in the summer.

I agree 1000% on DA. Makes a HUGE difference, plus humidity is a large factor in calculating DA and boats are directly on water obviously which has a contributing vapor layer.


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[dyrmz134]

I have a Makai with a 400, and upgraded WM bags. I can honestly say I have no power issues even with almost 5K of water and 10 people in the boat. Mostly surf all the time. I have the 15.5 x15 prop and am only about 237 ft above sea level however.

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I'll second this. I've got zero issues surfing at 10-11mph at 10 deg pitch (if wanted) with 6000lbs of ballast and people. I'm boating here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belews_Lake which is at 700 ft. I usually run about 8.5-9.5 pitch though.

[HFarr]

This is me.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Blackshear

Like I said. Dang near sea level.

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[larry_arizona]

I use this Density Altitude calculator if anyone is interested.

https://apps.apple.com/app/id560993349


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[Hayden]

Altitude is a killer for boats. Our local dealer wonÂ’t order a makai without a 450 in it. IÂ’ll be honest our new sl has the 575 and it is barely adequate in Pueblo, altitude 5k feet but density altitude is 8-10k in the summer.

TIL / thanks for the heads up.

I had no idea about density altitude. I'll use Larry's app this summer and try and see what my true power loss is.

[mjb929rr]

TIL / thanks for the heads up.

I had no idea about density altitude. I'll use Larry's app this summer and try and see what my true power loss is.

I have a banks idash in my truck and one of my parameters is density altitude.
The lake we frequent in Nebraska is 2800’ elevation. However even in the cool mornings we see a DA of 5500-6000’. During the mid day heat closer to 7-7500’. This is what the engine thinks the altitude is and performs accordingly.
My old 20 sl450 was gutless here when loaded up with people and 1k of lead.

[HFarr]

That's crazy! But....that is when a turbo makes a huge difference. Pack that extra air in there!

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[Hayden]

The lake we frequent in Nebraska is 2800’ elevation. However even in the cool mornings we see a DA of 5500-6000’. During the mid day heat closer to 7-7500’. This is what the engine thinks the altitude is and performs accordingly.
My old 20 sl450 was gutless here when loaded up with people and 1k of lead.

Which prop were/are you running with both your old SL and now with the new SL?

[Dukabor]

From the Denver show…

30750

[mjb929rr]

Which prop were/are you running with both your old SL and now with the new SL?

The old sl450 we ran a 16x13.9. 4-4300 rpms all the time with a medium crew. Our new sl we are able to run the 16x17. Usually 35-3600 rpms

[Hayden]

I’ll be honest our new sl has the 575 and it is barely adequate in Pueblo, altitude 5k feet but density altitude is 8-10k in the summer.


The old sl450 we ran a 16x13.9. 4-4300 rpms all the time with a medium crew. Our new sl we are able to run the 16x17. Usually 35-3600 rpms

Having a prop pitch of 17 deg on the new SL has gotta be holding you back, no? Even with the 575 engine.

(I'm assuming you use it for surfing primarily, rather than skiing/boarding.)

[mjb929rr]

We ordered it with the 13.9 prop. Since they went from a 1.5 trans to a 1.7 in 2022 it was running way too many rpms. 4200 or so. The 575 pulls the 17” prop no issues. I honestly think they should have kept the 1.5 trans

[HFarr]

From the Denver show…

30750Hard to read what the 3 different options are. I can see it looks like they all 3 have the 450.

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[Dukabor]

Hard to read what the 3 different options are. I can see it looks like they all 3 have the 450.

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Yes, all with the 450, a few different option son each….

One of these days ill figure out how to post hi res pictures!

[cucv]

What model year did the Makai get its existing hull and what upgrades does the cirrent Makai have that Moomba impemented to the model since that year?

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[Dukabor]

I am free to being corrected if I miss speak

The Makai was a new model for 2019 and I do not believe the hull has had any changes since then…. The flow 2 surf system was standard from the get go, and I believe in 2021 and up the Flow 3 system was available as an option (though may have been standard) I do not believe there have been any real significant changes to the design up until the dash redesign for 23…

[HFarr]

That sounds about right. I think the Hull is still the same as it only came out in 2019. It was a boat and a newer shaped hull for Moomba at that time.


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[JimLevin]

I am free to being corrected if I miss speak

The Makai was a new model for 2019 and I do not believe the hull has had any changes since thenÂ…. The flow 2 surf system was standard from the get go, and I believe in 2021 and up the Flow 3 system was available as an option (though may have been standard) I do not believe there have been any real significant changes to the design up until the dash redesign for 23Â…

Based on my shopping, I know for 2023 Makai has a completely new dash design/layout (which I think is better and easier to use than 2019-2022, just IMO), 2 induction(wireless) phone charges onboard, and the rear-facing sundeck (stern) flip up seats, that used to come only on Supras. No speaker in the driver footwell. Sub is in front of the steering wheel. I think the sound system has been upgraded/changed a bit but correct me on this, can't remember.

The base MSRP's I've seen on the 2022 was $102,500, after Feb 1, 2022, it went to $111,675, then 2023 went to $123,500 (FYI on the Moomba website says Makai starts at $118,000 with no options but I've never seen on that low, even on a dealer build sheet offer).

[cucv]

Thanks for the info guys. My local dealer confirmed the Makai will fit in my 28' garage bay with a folding trailer tongue. Seems like used prices on older Makai's are still over original MSRP.

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[JimLevin]

Thanks for the info guys. My local dealer confirmed the Makai will fit in my 28' garage bay with a folding trailer tongue. Seems like used prices on older Makai's are still over original MSRP.

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Nice. And yes, they seem to be at or over MSRP...and not many to choose from!

[cucv]

From a used boat value perspective, how much has the 450 engine option been in 2021, 2020, 2019, ect when purchaced new on a Mojo or Makai?

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[Holdmybeer]

Unless you need the 450 (elevation), most would rather change props than pay for the engine upgrade. On the Supra line I have seen the 450 command an extra $1500-2500 in the used world. I believe the new price upgrade is $4k+.

When did Moomba go to the 1.7 v-drive? To me that is what I would want in a 2019, 2020, 2021.

[larry_arizona]

Unless you need the 450 (elevation), most would rather change props than pay for the engine upgrade. On the Supra line I have seen the 450 command an extra $1500-2500 in the used world. I believe the new price upgrade is $4k+.

When did Moomba go to the 1.7 v-drive? To me that is what I would want in a 2019, 2020, 2021.

Supra 450 upgrade is $10k over the 400


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[HFarr]

Not sure when Moomba made the change, but my 21 Makai has a 1.76 vdrive

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[HFarr]

Wow. 10K upgrade is pretty steep for a 400 to a 450. I could see that for a 400 to a 550.

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[larry_arizona]

Wow. 10K upgrade is pretty steep for a 400 to a 450. I could see that for a 400 to a 550.

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550 is a $21k upgrade over a 400

I think moomba changed to 1.76 in 2019 on the 400's, Supra was mid year 2019+

550's I think got the 1.76 in 2021


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[Holdmybeer]

I am mistaken....

and...ITS $10K NOW.....WTF.....for tuning?

Sorry....now that is off my chest. Again, 400, right prop choice, and new 1.7 Trans. If you are at elevation and actually need the power this becomes a different topic.

[larry_arizona]

I am mistaken....

and...ITS $10K NOW.....WTF.....for tuning?

Sorry....now that is off my chest. Again, 400, right prop choice, and new 1.7 Trans. If you are at elevation and actually need the power this becomes a different topic.

The 440 was tune only and about $6500 upgrade in 2018.

450 is a gt350 throttle body and upgraded intake manifold and tuning.

Raptor 400 throttle body is 80mm
Raptor 450/GT350 throttle body is 87mm




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[cucv]

The 440 was tune only and about $6500 upgrade in 2018.

450 is a gt350 throttle body and upgraded intake manifold and tuning.

Raptor 400 throttle body is 80mm
Raptor 450/GT350 throttle body is 87mm




Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkThanks for the input guys. So we are looking at roughly $900 in increased motor cost per year from 18 to 23.

Being close to sea level I don't need a 450. However, there is a used boat of interest with a 450 and I'm trying to estimate what they paid for the boat. The used boats I've been watching minus the G23's aren't moving. I'm starting to see some prices drop to what I'd expect folks paid just not on the boats on the top of my list.

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[HFarr]

The 440 was tune only and about $6500 upgrade in 2018.

450 is a gt350 throttle body and upgraded intake manifold and tuning.

Raptor 400 throttle body is 80mm
Raptor 450/GT350 throttle body is 87mm




Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkWow! So pay an extra 10k and get 1k worth of parts & tune? https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230318/5a6e7c9e2bba9cdce36446ffbbb80dae.jpg

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[larry_arizona]

Thanks for the input guys. So we are looking at roughly $900 in increased motor cost per year from 18 to 23.

Being close to sea level I don't need a 450. However, there is a used boat of interest with a 450 and I'm trying to estimate what they paid for the boat. The used boats I've been watching minus the G23's aren't moving. I'm starting to see some prices drop to what I'd expect folks paid just not on the boats on the top of my list.

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Thanks for the input guys. So we are looking at roughly $900 in increased motor cost per year from 18 to 23.

Being close to sea level I don't need a 450. However, there is a used boat of interest with a 450 and I'm trying to estimate what they paid for the boat. The used boats I've been watching minus the G23's aren't moving. I'm starting to see some prices drop to what I'd expect folks paid just not on the boats on the top of my list.

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I would not say it was an $900 per year increase. The 440 was 6500 ish in 2018 and in 2019 I recall the 450 was just over $9000 ish and 2023 is 10k.

Point is the big jump was in 2019 with the new 450.

The above is Supra pricing, moomba charges less for the 450 upgrade.


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[HFarr]

Wow! So pay an extra 10k and get 1k worth of parts & tune? https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230318/5a6e7c9e2bba9cdce36446ffbbb80dae.jpg

Sent from my SM-G781V using TapatalkWell, that was for the 5.2 liter, but you get the drift. Intake and throttle body are not 10k.

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[larry_arizona]

Indmar has a specific intake manifold for the 450. The GT350 throttle body does not bolt up to the 400's intake.

If anyone with a 450 can post some pics of the TB and Intake manifold, that would be great.

It certainly doesn't cost more to make the 450 vs the 400, just paying the premium for 60hp and 48 ft.lbs


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[HFarr]

As long as people are paying that much for an upgrade, that's what will be charged. It's not just in boat markets, it's just business. Just because something can be made at a low cost doesn't mean it will be sold at a low cost. Heck. Look at a pair of "Crocks"! LOL!...... Of course it still doesn't mean "I" will necessarily buy it.

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[Hayden]

I use this Density Altitude calculator if anyone is interested.

https://apps.apple.com/app/id560993349


Larry, I tried this app out and it appears that it gets the information from the nearest METAR station? In my case the station is 88km (55 miles) away and a few valleys over. Which could be night and day difference in calculations.

Do you know if the METAR stations do approximate/remote measurement of your actual location and base its DA off that or if it's basing it off of the METAR station physical location only?

https://i.imgur.com/AAC8S0g.jpg

[larry_arizona]

It's taken at wherever the weather station is located. Most of the time is close enough as long as your elevation is same/similar with the Temp, RH within 50 miles.


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[Hayden]

It's taken at wherever the weather station is located. Most of the time is close enough as long as your elevation is same/similar with the Temp, RH within 50 miles.


Normally I would agree with you but in this case, having lived between these two areas my entire life, I can tell for certain that my summer surf lake, Windermere, is hot/semi-arid and Banff is higher/cooler/temperate. You wouldn't think 50miles (as the crow flies) would make that much difference but crossing over the pass and getting into Windermere is like opening the door to the sauna.

Even with that said, it's varying the DA in Banff from 4000' to 5000' depending on the day. 15% lower power output and I bet if the station was actually in Windermere it would show higher.