Beware of E15 fuel this summer

[larry_arizona]

The administration is likely going to allow widespread emergency use of E15 fuel this summer.

Beware the raptors are not approved to use it.



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[HFarr]

Nope. It will give you worse gas mileage too in other vehicles.

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[MJHSupra]

Joe will try anything before the Nov Midterms . . . "Ds" still going to get their clock cleaned.

[MLA]

I wonder if there will be proper notice on pumps or will it just show up in the tanks and we will know after the damage is done.

[larry_arizona]

One of the road blocks is the equipment upgrades at gas stations.

Because not all vehicles/equipment can safety use E15, there would be significant litigation if it wasn’t posted with warning.

99% of the general public doesn’t understand why it doesn’t work.


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[MJHSupra]

I think that is what Trump tried with an order to fulfill one of his campaign promises, have E15 in the 10% pumps.

And that was struck down in the courts b/c that is not how congress wrote the original federal law.

[2in2out]

I’ll say this move is sure to compound inflationary pressures and is not looking towards the large scale analytic evidence. Grain corn which is the primary source of ethanol is going to be scarce due to worldwide demand, reduced grain production from Russia’s wrongful actions in Ukraine, and Midwest drought conditions.

Grain corn price increases will be distributed through meat and milk markets driving prices even higher, and increasing nationwide internal combustion engine failures, effecting everything from lawnmowers to AVgas when E15 cross contamination occurs.

Add to the increased costs of spill cleanup due the miscibility of E15 and increase in ozone pollution, I can’t agree with the admins shift on this.


Making my new SA build come true!!!

[larry_arizona]

Ethanol in gas has never been a good idea.

The only advantage it has is E85 (105 octane)is technically a race fuel for high horsepower engines IF you have enough fuel pump capacity to run it and of course tune for it. The Stoichiometry is much different than gasoline.

But E15 is not approved in the raptor marine engine applications. Max alcohol is approved at 10%.

My guess is the raptors would run lean on E15 and too much alcohol and the risk of the alcohol absorbing water in a boat application.


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[Zog]

Won't change much for me as I will continue to put ethanol free blue gas in my tank.

[Mxmark4]

I have done some e85 builds that made crazy power. Built an Sti for a customer that made 520 awhp on e 85. But the injectors were so big that the car ran like crap when on 93 pump gas. Of course the downside of higher ethanol fuels is increased consumption. My boat drinks enough that I dont want it to be using a fuel that burns twice as much. Our local station now charges same price for e85 as reg 87.

[mjb929rr]

I don’t understand why more automakers and indmar don’t find a way to make e15 work. I think Most Of the issues you hear about ethanol are based on opinions and not reality.
I have a challenger hellcat that I had set up for e85 3 years ago. We drive this car maybe 1000 miles a year, to car shows etc. I’ve never drained or flushed the tank, sometimes the same tank of fuel sits in the there for months with no issues. Simple pulley swap, unlocked pcm, injector swap yielded 940whp up from 640.

[larry_arizona]

The issues on alcohol are real. It is fact that injectors and pumps get what’s called the black goo of death.

Worked on many forced induction cars with E85 and performance wise it’s godtier for power. Easy 100hp on a booster V8. Alcohol is a great liquid intercooler and 105 octane allows a lot of spark advance and it’s really hard to get knock on alcohol. But you need 30% more fuel pump capacity and much larger injectors compared to pump 93 gas.

But the goo is real, letting e85 sit for 2 weeks+ is bad news for injectors and fuel pumps. Google it.

Seen about a 10-15% pump capacity drop in one year of running a fore triple pump fuel system on a 1000hp CTSV. That is the difference in having enough fuel and blowing an engine up. The goo plugs up the pumps.

We always ran flex fuel sensors and hybrid tunes based on percent alcohol scaled by the sensor. Ran a tank of 93 after a couple tanks of E85 to keep the goo at bay.

Indmar Raptors have a warning stick stating not to run E15. My guess is it needs more injector or more fuel pump capacity and a tune adjustment.

Most modern cars can probably handle it, but boats on water as alcohol is hygroscopic.


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[Zog]

For boats the ethanol issue is real. Ethanol attracts water. Over time you will have a bunch of water in the bottom of your fuel tank. When you run low on fuel, you will suck that gas in, destroying your fuel pump.

We have also seen issues with ethanol fuel in our previous houseboat which had two 125 HP Yamaha outboards. Without the ethanol neutralizer in the fuel, the engine would run for about an hour and would then drop down into limp mode. You would have to wait for a few minutes and then restart. It would then last for another 20-30 minutes before doing the same thing. With the neutralizer, no issues at all. In that case it was not tuned for ethanol in fuel, but this was E10 causing the problem.

[SorryCharlie]

Don’t gas stations have to label the pump as e85?

[larry_arizona]

Don’t gas stations have to label the pump as e85?

Yes of course E85 would require a label as many vehicles would be damaged from trying to run it.

However with the “emergency” order for using E15, I don’t know what gas stations will require as far as labeling.


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[Jason1975]

This is nothing more than a political ploy to try to make it look like something is being done. It will cause more issues actually and isn't long term any way you look at it, its just stupidity. My understanding is gas stations MUST label E15 gas.

[larry_arizona]

Ethanol in gasoline has been proven to be more polluting to the environment than straight gasoline.

Less tailpipe emissions but much higher pollution manufacturing ethanol.

Not to mention heavily subsidized.


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[sandm]

just to clarify as there's a couple things going on here. e85 HAS to be labeled as such and only 3500 stations carry it. not widely used out west, more a midwest thing.

the VAST majority of stations only carry e10 and due to storage/transport and having to certify your station as e15, there are currently only 2300 stations that carry e15 and are labeled as such. they sell e15 from september to april and the "emergency order" extends it through the summer. to larry's point the reason they don't sell e15 in the summer is due to smog from all the summer vacation travel. it is not as clean as regular gas. it is in 30 states but most seem to be midwest oriented. e15 stations have to "certify" their pumps to dispense e15 as there's a couple of parts that the gov't has said can either be e10 certified or e85 certifed(which can then sell e15). they can't swap back and forth on a whim IF they are certified for e10.
most pumps will be labeled as containing "up to" x percent of ethanol depending on your area so just because it says e15 doesn't mean that's what's loaded in the tanks year round. however if biden has his way it'll be that way through the summer.
it's not a democrat ploy as repubs have tried as well so interesting to see if this one is struck down in the courts as well.

to echo larry's point, back in the day I bought a ranger with a flex fuel motor that had 80k on the clock. did a TON of research into e85 and almost everyone that had been using regular gas and swapped to e85 after 50k+ miles had issues with fuel filters. e85 apparently grabs all the crap in the bottom of the tank and takes it along for the ride. most owners stated swapping to e85 required several fuel filter changes in the first couple months as the sediment present in your tank gets picked up and transported. did not read any issues with pumps but a few injector issues and assuming it's due to some crap getting past the filter and concentrating in the first injector on the first bank where it deposits. guess is(and nothing to back it up) long term swapping will cause a few injector issues long term.

[SorryCharlie]

just to clarify as there's a couple things going on here. e85 HAS to be labeled as such and only 3500 stations carry it. not widely used out west, more a midwest thing.

the VAST majority of stations only carry e10 and due to storage/transport and having to certify your station as e15, there are currently only 2300 stations that carry e15 and are labeled as such. they sell e15 from september to april and the "emergency order" extends it through the summer. to larry's point the reason they don't sell e15 in the summer is due to smog from all the summer vacation travel. it is not as clean as regular gas. it is in 30 states but most seem to be midwest oriented. e15 stations have to "certify" their pumps to dispense e15 as there's a couple of parts that the gov't has said can either be e10 certified or e85 certifed(which can then sell e15). they can't swap back and forth on a whim IF they are certified for e10.
most pumps will be labeled as containing "up to" x percent of ethanol depending on your area so just because it says e15 doesn't mean that's what's loaded in the tanks year round. however if biden has his way it'll be that way through the summer.
it's not a democrat ploy as repubs have tried as well so interesting to see if this one is struck down in the courts as well.

to echo larry's point, back in the day I bought a ranger with a flex fuel motor that had 80k on the clock. did a TON of research into e85 and almost everyone that had been using regular gas and swapped to e85 after 50k+ miles had issues with fuel filters. e85 apparently grabs all the crap in the bottom of the tank and takes it along for the ride. most owners stated swapping to e85 required several fuel filter changes in the first couple months as the sediment present in your tank gets picked up and transported. did not read any issues with pumps but a few injector issues and assuming it's due to some crap getting past the filter and concentrating in the first injector on the first bank where it deposits. guess is(and nothing to back it up) long term swapping will cause a few injector issues long term.

Great post, thanks! Do our Raptor engines get enough “better” mileage with non ethanol to warrant the change from e10?

[larry_arizona]

just to clarify as there's a couple things going on here. e85 HAS to be labeled as such and only 3500 stations carry it. not widely used out west, more a midwest thing.

the VAST majority of stations only carry e10 and due to storage/transport and having to certify your station as e15, there are currently only 2300 stations that carry e15 and are labeled as such. they sell e15 from september to april and the "emergency order" extends it through the summer. to larry's point the reason they don't sell e15 in the summer is due to smog from all the summer vacation travel. it is not as clean as regular gas. it is in 30 states but most seem to be midwest oriented. e15 stations have to "certify" their pumps to dispense e15 as there's a couple of parts that the gov't has said can either be e10 certified or e85 certifed(which can then sell e15). they can't swap back and forth on a whim IF they are certified for e10.
most pumps will be labeled as containing "up to" x percent of ethanol depending on your area so just because it says e15 doesn't mean that's what's loaded in the tanks year round. however if biden has his way it'll be that way through the summer.
it's not a democrat ploy as repubs have tried as well so interesting to see if this one is struck down in the courts as well.

to echo larry's point, back in the day I bought a ranger with a flex fuel motor that had 80k on the clock. did a TON of research into e85 and almost everyone that had been using regular gas and swapped to e85 after 50k+ miles had issues with fuel filters. e85 apparently grabs all the crap in the bottom of the tank and takes it along for the ride. most owners stated swapping to e85 required several fuel filter changes in the first couple months as the sediment present in your tank gets picked up and transported. did not read any issues with pumps but a few injector issues and assuming it's due to some crap getting past the filter and concentrating in the first injector on the first bank where it deposits. guess is(and nothing to back it up) long term swapping will cause a few injector issues long term.

Swapping from E10 to E85 is more of a fueling issue than a hardware issue.

Running E85 in a vehicle factory tuned for air/fuel ratios using E10 will run extremely lean and risk detonation.

Flex fuel vehicles use a alcohol sensor that measure %alcohol and scales the air fuel tuning and fuel pump output accordingly.

You need at minimum 30% headroom on your fuel pump and injectors that can feed the higher volume of fuel needed when running E85.


E85 is poor man’s race gas. 105 octane for $2 a gallon vs 110 octane race gas at $7-$9 a gallon.

One of the best ideas to improve emissions and power and performance would be sell higher octane gasoline without ethanol.

OEM’s would love 98 octane pump gas. They could use less displacement, higher boost/compression, have cleaner burn, higher horsepower, cleaner emission and better mpg.

But try to convince a green politician of that despite the data. Only thing they comprehend is oil is bad.

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[2in2out]

OEM’s would love 98 octane pump gas. They could use less displacement, higher boost/compression, have cleaner burn, higher horsepower, cleaner emission and better mpg.

But try to convince a green politician of that despite the data. Only thing they comprehend is oil is bad.

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The cost of the logistics of refining and distributing 98 are the real killer. That is why 93 has such a cost disparity to 89.


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[sandm]

sorry larry. should have been more specific I think.. for the station owner to switch from e10 to e15 or e85, they have to replace parts of the fuel delivery system and it has to be "certified" by the epa. it's not simply a matter of an e10 station filling the tanks with e15. however it is backwards compatible so e85 tanks/pumps can run anything.

I have been digging into swapping the 6.2 in our ss from gas to e85 and it's only adding some fuel components and a tune. up side is 50whp easily. down side is access to e85 out west is not easy. only a couple stations in the vegas valley and only 1 in henderson. not worth the extra oomph.

[larry_arizona]

sorry larry. should have been more specific I think.. for the station owner to switch from e10 to e15 or e85, they have to replace parts of the fuel delivery system and it has to be "certified" by the epa. it's not simply a matter of an e10 station filling the tanks with e15. however it is backwards compatible so e85 tanks/pumps can run anything.

I have been digging into swapping the 6.2 in our ss from gas to e85 and it's only adding some fuel components and a tune. up side is 50whp easily. down side is access to e85 out west is not easy. only a couple stations in the vegas valley and only 1 in henderson. not worth the extra oomph.

If you do install a flex fuel kit, get the DSX. Dave pretty much invented the aftermarket flex fuel kits and uses high quality fittings.

I have installed many of flex kits and some cheaper kits on the market are pretty bad and tend to leak.




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[Josh828]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220415/0c908917a82bd39440f88abfc82f3dc8.jpg
Just saw this on Instagram

[larry_arizona]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220415/00b137d656066e7554094691c0d76111.jpg


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[Holdmybeer]

That's a 550....he should be using race fuel e0.....lol

[Zog]

At the gas station yesterday I went in to buy a drink and the guy in front of me took 10 minutes to explain to the cashier why they should be selling ethanol free and how it really was cheaper for the consumer. He said he was a chemist and knew better. All I know is that my car gets the same mileage either way, but it can handle E10. I don't want water in my fuel so I use ethanol free 91 in the boat.

[larry_arizona]

At the gas station yesterday I went in to buy a drink and the guy in front of me took 10 minutes to explain to the cashier why they should be selling ethanol free and how it really was cheaper for the consumer. He said he was a chemist and knew better. All I know is that my car gets the same mileage either way, but it can handle E10. I don't want water in my fuel so I use ethanol free 91 in the boat.

You should get roughly 5% better mpg with E0 vs E10


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[Jimm]

This is nothing more than a political ploy to try to make it look like something is being done. It will cause more issues actually and isn't long term any way you look at it, its just stupidity. My understanding is gas stations MUST label E15 gas.

Was it a political "stunt" when the last President did it? Even though prices were not being artificially inflated due to lagging supply, some of which is intentional? E15 is widely available as it is so how does lifting the summer ban do anything but make less expensive fuel an option, drastically improve the finances of farmers across the midwest and increase the amount of biofuel in use? And FWIW, you haven't been forced to use it and that isn't changing. Most all modern vehicles are designed to handle it just fine. It won't cause any more of your so-called issues that it does the rest of the year.
Biden has outpaced Trump with drilling permits, but the industry isn't drilling out of uncertainty over how long they can rake in higher profits. Even as he releases more oil from the reserves it won't have a big effect because the oil industry and traders are thumbing their noses at us, the consumer. They are sitting on over 9000 permits while, once again, raking in record billions.
The issue with gas prices is directly tied to oil production, prices and refining. Oil prices rise and fall at the whim of buyers and the drop in production during the pandemic causes them to lose money which they are making back now. Production is still not back domestically and then you have Putin and Opec refusing to return production to previous levels. All this aside, refining in February was operating at around 58% capacity down from the ~ 80% in January. Not a single one of the 3 universally accepted major factors are influenced by a President. But a President can mitigate the greed and lack of cooperation, which is exactly what he is doing.

[zabooda]

Just get gas prices where they were. America could care less how that is done.

[larry_arizona]

E15 is 10 cents less at best. A big nothing burger.


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[MLA]

Just get gas prices where they were. America could care less how that is done.

I care! depleting the strategic reserves only to have to refill the tanks at a higher price later, is not the same as flooding the market because you are world leader at production. 2019 v's 2022.