Interesting warranty claim from Supra forum.

[larry_arizona]

I feel like something is missing from this story for warranty to be denied. I am sure we will never know the full story.

2020 Supra SL 550 Roush Engine needs to be replaced not under warranty
https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink/topic?share_fid=27867&share_tid=21564&url=https%3A%2F%2Fforum%2Esupraboats%2Ecom%2Fshowt hread%2Ephp%3Ft%3D21564&share_type=t&link_source=app

2020 Supra For Sale 130 hours and brand spanking non warranty covered motor!!
https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink/topic?share_fid=27867&share_tid=21607&url=https%3A%2F%2Fforum%2Esupraboats%2Ecom%2Fshowt hread%2Ephp%3Ft%3D21607&share_type=t&link_source=app


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[sandm]

not sure who this is but I know the shop in boise had a blown 575. took indmar a month before they warranted it after collecting water/oil and ecu data. then another couple months to ship and swap out the blown engine. according to the mechanic I knew there he said indmar will own up to any issues once they have determined that the basic proper protocols were followed.

something tells me, as larry mentioned, there's a whole lot more to this story than what's being posted. funny to read all the responses to "sue them". that's easy to do if there's no skeletons hiding...

[Holdmybeer]

What does he want for the boat?

I have built plenty of forced induction motors. Ran plenty also with NO2. Sounds fishy to me. If he got 12hrs on it before it went bang, someone kept resetting the ecm and continued surfing. Also, how did only the 3rd cylinder burn up?
Assuming no block damage, and no supercharger damage, the motor could be rebuilt under $25k.

[larry_arizona]

What does he want for the boat?

I have built plenty of forced induction motors. Ran plenty also with NO2. Sounds fishy to me. If he got 12hrs on it before it went bang, someone kept resetting the ecm and continued surfing. Also, how did only the 3rd cylinder burn up?
Assuming no block damage, and no supercharger damage, the motor could be rebuilt under $25k.

My guess is continued pushing engine with bad fuel as nobody would want to end their trip early.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Holdmybeer]

Larry,
I read you post on the Supra site. I agree. ECU and knock sensors were probably going of continuously but there were 10 people on the boat and they were on a trip with others. Kill battery wait 5 minutes, fire it back up and enjoy.

He keeps saying the other boats didn't have issue and used the same gas. I'm sure they were NA engines and the water didn't matter. The only other thing I can think of is he about flooded the boat and managed to get water in the fuel tank. It is just odd that only #3 was checked, per his story. I would think Indmar would want to throw a scope in the spark plug holes and check all 8 for damage. That would confirm bad gas in every cylinder and completely exempt them from warranty.

[larry_arizona]

My experience with FI engines is, when the first piston goes the others were not far behind.

In this case #3 was just the first to go.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[SONIC]

Well that sucks, but that's what insurance is for.
Indmar can't be responsible for someone dumping water in their gas tank.

I'd be curious why the boat didn't immediately go into limp mode though to prevent the issue.

[larry_arizona]

Well that sucks, but that's what insurance is for.
Indmar can't be responsible for someone dumping water in their gas tank.

I'd be curious why the boat didn't immediately go into limp mode though to prevent the issue.

That is why I feel something is missing to the story. Owner says it threw one code, Indmar says 6000x…….

A misfire isn’t necessarily knock or detonation and 6000 misfires could be as simple as a fouled plug, but it should have gone into limp mode if the knock threshold was achieved.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Holdmybeer]

That is why I feel something is missing to the story. Owner says it threw one code, Indmar says 6000x…….

A misfire isn’t necessarily knock or detonation and 6000 misfires could be as simple as a fouled plug, but it should have gone into limp mode if the knock threshold was achieved.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Even if it did not go into limp mode, the boat would be running so terrible anyone should have noticed. I have had water in the fuel of motorcycles and other off-road toys. They sputter, idle bad, and stall consistently.

Again, insurance should step up at this point and help get it fixed. Assuming he had insurance!!!

[2in2out]

My guess is Op had filled tank at marina, got into a dither herding “boat cats” back into the boat to clear the pump for the stack of thirsty boats, and forgot to put the fuel cap on. No one noticed for a while, and whoever did, didn’t pass it on to the Op/owner. Hence, the vector for water in fuel, and isolation of effects to a single boat. Op is first time boat owner in a complex holiday environment with many varied inputs and distractions. Op, or whoever was assisting could easily miss this simple step.

Wouldn’t water in the fuel cause a ring/valve/gasket failure as result of steam expansion on deflagration?

Detonation shouldn’t occur under in large enough water/fuel mixture, and the water vapor would absorb more heat then typical exhaust gas lowering cylinder temps unless friction overtook temp creation to melt the piston.

Like Kent says, there’s more to the story that even the Op/owner may not know, and we may never know.


Making my new SA build come true!!!

[sandm]

My guess is Op had filled tank at marina, got into a dither herding “boat cats” back into the boat to clear the pump for the stack of thirsty boats, and forgot to put the fuel cap on.

could be a likely explanation however interested if powell allows you to fill up yourself. the 2 marinas I have bought gas at out west do not let you fill. they have to do it from start to finish.

wonder if there was enough water in the fuel that it clogged the fuel/water separator and starved the engine for fuel. OP rams the throttle down to take off and bam- lack of fuel detonates engine. could be why a code was tossed earlier and took a little longer to manifest itself.
12 hours is a long time in a boat tho even on a vacation weekend.

[zabooda]

The fueling station would be responsible if others at the time also experienced water in the fuel also. Not sure how one would get that information.

[larry_arizona]

It would be hard to prove gas stations fault.

When I had a water in fuel issue in my car, I pulled a sample, clearly showed a lot of water in the sample, took gas receipt from day prior along with sample to station and they pretty much told me to pound sand.

Deny deny deny.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[larry_arizona]

Found this on Indmar shop talk……


FUEL AND OIL REQUIREMENTS
2/21/2017 1 Comment

​It is critical that the fuel and oil requirements for the various Indmar/Ford based engines are followed.

​The standard model 360 and the premium 400 and 440 (Malibu 410 and 450) models are designed to operate on 89 octane fuel with a maximum ethanol content of 10%.

​​The new model 460 and the supercharged 575 are designed to run on premium grade,
91-93 octane fuel with a maximum of 10% ethanol.
Picture
All of the 6.2L Indmar/Ford engines are equipped with knock sensors that will detect pre-ignition and detonation to help protect the engine from damage if the fuel quality is low and the engine starts ”pinging” or “spark knocking”. Unfortunately, there is a limit to how much protection the system can provide. Typically the system responds to spark knock by retarding the ignition timing. In most cases, retarding the timing by a few degrees will stop the knock and protect the engine. There are situations where the system has retarded the ignition timing to the maximum allowable limit and the knock continues. This most often occurs in situations where the boat is heavily loaded, is over propped so the engine is unable to turn in its designated RPM range, and the fuel is not the required octane level for the engine. The result of operating the engine in those “continuous knock” conditions is generally catastrophic engine failure that is not covered by Indmar’s limited warranty.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[sandm]

guy was at powell when it happened iirc. wonder if he told them he only buys gas at dangling marina?? I know this has been an issue on the tige forums for guys at powell and have the larger HP engines.

https://www.lakepowellmarinas.com/boater-resources/fuel-prices/

[larry_arizona]

He does say “ultra sensitive motor” several times.

I never saw an octane reported on the fuel analysis.

Did he run a tank of 87 and is blaming the engine for being “ultra sensitive” because his buddies non FI engines handled it ???


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[sandm]

that engine will run all day long on 87 if all you need to do is a 3 hour tour and back to the boat ramp as a pleasure cruise.
that engine will grenade all day long on 87 IF you are loaded down surfing and boarding.
just like boosted cars, run the wrong octane and the engine will pull enough timing to get you somewhere safely at a low load. run it hard tho and it'll blow up in a second on the wrong octane.

as Larry called out, not knowing the whole story doesn't help at all but make for good internet fodder :)

[Holdmybeer]

Interested to hear any results from an insurance claim. Indmar clearly covers themselves from this exact situation, but I wonder if insurance would cover owner ignorance.

With the amount of work, if he sells the boat, he is going to lose his a$$ so might as well fix it and move on.

[larry_arizona]

Boat is for sale.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[SONIC]

Interested to hear any results from an insurance claim. Indmar clearly covers themselves from this exact situation, but I wonder if insurance would cover owner ignorance.

With the amount of work, if he sells the boat, he is going to lose his a$$ so might as well fix it and move on.

Insurance should cover it, no more ignorant than running it headlong into the shore or sinking it with no plug.

[larry_arizona]

Insurance should cover it, no more ignorant than running it headlong into the shore or sinking it with no plug.

Engine damage is a grey area.

Sabotage, sugar in gas tank, engine fire, vandalism are fairly black and white.

Wrong fuel, water in fuel are harder to prove.

Engine wear and tear would not be covered.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Holdmybeer]

Insurance should cover it, no more ignorant than running it headlong into the shore or sinking it with no plug.

You make valid points that I cannot argue with.

[sandm]

Insurance should cover it, no more ignorant than running it headlong into the shore or sinking it with no plug.

depends on the insurance I would say....
from skisafe:

What am I not covered for under my policy?
Unfortunately, we can’t cover everything. Here are some things your policy may exclude:

Natural wear and tear
Neglect
Intentional damage
Infestation from inspects, mold, or animals
Lack of maintenance
Mechanical/ production defects

argument could be made IF he filled up at any other marina that doesn't sell 93 that it falls under neglect and not covered.
boatUS is pretty specific that they don't cover outboards unless you add a mechanical breakdown rider so assume it's the same for inboards.

some insurance will likely be quick to cover and I bet some won't.

[SONIC]

depends on the insurance I would say....
from skisafe:

What am I not covered for under my policy?
Unfortunately, we can’t cover everything. Here are some things your policy may exclude:

Natural wear and tear
Neglect
Intentional damage
Infestation from inspects, mold, or animals
Lack of maintenance
Mechanical/ production defects

argument could be made IF he filled up at any other marina that doesn't sell 93 that it falls under neglect and not covered.
boatUS is pretty specific that they don't cover outboards unless you add a mechanical breakdown rider so assume it's the same for inboards.

some insurance will likely be quick to cover and I bet some won't.

Probably right, I think I'll call my agent and see what I am and am not covered for just so I know.

[MJHSupra]

Sounds like a nightmare. Let the finger pointing begin.

Missing water time with that big layup. No wonder the boat would be for sale.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Zog]

could be a likely explanation however interested if powell allows you to fill up yourself. the 2 marinas I have bought gas at out west do not let you fill. they have to do it from start to finish.

wonder if there was enough water in the fuel that it clogged the fuel/water separator and starved the engine for fuel. OP rams the throttle down to take off and bam- lack of fuel detonates engine. could be why a code was tossed earlier and took a little longer to manifest itself.
12 hours is a long time in a boat tho even on a vacation weekend.


guy was at powell when it happened iirc. wonder if he told them he only buys gas at dangling marina?? I know this has been an issue on the tige forums for guys at powell and have the larger HP engines.

https://www.lakepowellmarinas.com/boater-resources/fuel-prices/

None of the marinas on Lake Powell will allow you to fuel your own boat. They fill and cap your boat when done. However, if you are on a houseboat they all have toy tanks and you will likely wind up filling your own boat with an onboard pump where mistakes could happen.

Additionally, there is currently no source for 91 octane fuel on the lake except for Antelope Point marina. Due to low water, the houseboats that used to do launch and exchange at Antelope Point have been off the water and the launch ramp is now closed (though it wouldn't have been during the time the damage was done). The NPS marinas don't carry 91 octane though, since Halls was the only NPS marina that did and it is now closed to fuel. My brother-in-law with the 575 had to use an octane booster with every fill.

My experience though has been that regardless of where you fill at Lake Powell, the gas is garbage and our boat has to crank a little longer to get started. They do not use ethanol free fuel and I think there is significant water in the fuel tanks at the marinas. It gets worse on the houseboat toy tanks where it seems there are many pathways for water to get into the tank vents. We put ethanol treatment in the fuel when we put it in the boat, but when it is bad coming from the marina, it is just plain bad.

[larry_arizona]

None of the marinas on Lake Powell will allow you to fuel your own boat. They fill and cap your boat when done. However, if you are on a houseboat they all have toy tanks and you will likely wind up filling your own boat with an onboard pump where mistakes could happen.

Additionally, there is currently no source for 91 octane fuel on the lake except for Antelope Point marina. Due to low water, the houseboats that used to do launch and exchange at Antelope Point have been off the water and the launch ramp is now closed (though it wouldn't have been during the time the damage was done). The NPS marinas don't carry 91 octane though, since Halls was the only NPS marina that did and it is now closed to fuel. My brother-in-law with the 575 had to use an octane booster with every fill.

My experience though has been that regardless of where you fill at Lake Powell, the gas is garbage and our boat has to crank a little longer to get started. They do not use ethanol free fuel and I think there is significant water in the fuel tanks at the marinas. It gets worse on the houseboat toy tanks where it seems there are many pathways for water to get into the tank vents. We put ethanol treatment in the fuel when we put it in the boat, but when it is bad coming from the marina, it is just plain bad.

Very interesting……

So highly likely the boat owner was not running the premium he claimed.

He likely ran lower octane fuel, under full load and full boost for 12 boat hours until it let go…….


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Zog]

Very interesting……

So highly likely the boat owner was not running the premium he claimed.

He likely ran lower octane fuel, under full load and full boost for 12 boat hours until it let go…….


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

He could have had premium fuel, but would have had to get it at Antelope Point or if he filled from the houseboat he would need to be sure that whoever filled the toy tank filled at Antelope Point. My experience... When you are filling the boat with hundreds of gallons of fuel (we filled about 350 gallons when we used the boat in July) that costs $5+ per gallon, some people start looking at the $0.30 price difference and figure that on a 200 gallon toy tank that is $60 difference that won't benefit them and sometimes they cut corners. We couldn't get owners to add ethanol treatment to the tanks even when the treatment was included on the boat and it didn't cost them a penny. The outboards on the old houseboat would often sputter and cut out due to the ethanol issues. Also the water separators were often filling with water. To tell someone they have to fill up at a specific marina and put specific fuel in the toy tank, my guess is it won't always happen.

I'm betting he ran on the gas he had, which probably was not the right kind and likely had water in it.

[HFarr]

Holy cow!! Those marina prices are insane coming from Georgia. I thought the marinas on our lake at 3.50-3.89 were high! I use a caddy and buy 89 octane in town at 3.00.

Sent from my SM-G781V using Tapatalk