Lake Powell issues

[larry_arizona]

Let’s start a informative thread here on the state of Powell.


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[SONIC]

I'll start:

It's low
:-D

[sandm]

really should change the topic to the west as this is not an issue unique to powell. it, along with mead, seem to get more press due to size but look up some norcal lakes and you will see similar stories. idaho's reservoirs are draining early as well but not to the extent of the colorado river basin.
the great salt lake in a similar state.

interesting story here from iran that talks about another lake that has shrunk to half it's size. I take it with a grain of salt as CNN can be slanted and pushing global warming but they don't spend a lot of time talking about dams which have contributed to the issue, only global warming as that's more "newsworthy".
https://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2021/08/09/iran-lake-urmia-fred-pleitgen-pkg-intl-ldn-vpx.cnn
google salton sea and there's another lake slowly drying up and it's leaving a dirt mess behind that are eventually going to cause some issues in palm springs.

[996scott]

We were there in June and had no issues at all. My neighbor just got back last week and he hit a rock/island that was a few feet underwater. The estimate is $17-20K to get everything fixed. And to top it off, It was a brand new MOJO only 2 months old:mad:

here is a graph that shows the water level

http://graphs.water-data.com/lakepowell/

Bullfrog marina main ramp is closed but the executive launch next to the houseboats is open. Wahweap State Line ramp is closed but the main ramp is open, and i think Antelope Point launch is closed as well. I think Halls ramp is also closed. The gas dock at Halls is closed and Dangling Rope Marina is also closed.

this is from their website:

Multiple Lake Powell Launch Ramps Closed Due to Low Water
Date Posted: 7/27/2021
Closed to all access: Wahweap Stateline. Closed to motorized vessel: Hite, Halls Crossing, Bullfrog North, Antelope Point Public. Closed to houseboat launch: Wahweap Main. Open: Bullfrog Main, Antelope Point Business.

Dangling Rope Marina Closed Through 2021
Date Posted: 7/20/2021
Due to significant wind damage and low water conditions, Dangling Rope Marina will not reopen in 2021.The damaged docks are not safe for visitors or employees.

[larry_arizona]

Is Powell and mead salt/brackish water?


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[996scott]

nope, fresh water coming from the Colorado river.

[larry_arizona]

nope, fresh water coming from the Colorado river.

Wasn’t sure based on areas of Utah upstream being in a salt basin. Obviously the run off of rain and snow is fresh, just thought it could pick up salt on its way.

Out west, are there plans to build natural gas power plants to reduce need of hydro in case water runs out?


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[Zog]

here is a graph that shows the water level

http://graphs.water-data.com/lakepowell/

Bullfrog marina main ramp is closed but the executive launch next to the houseboats is open. Wahweap State Line ramp is closed but the other one is open, and i think Antelope Point launch is closed as well. The gas dock at Halls is closed and Dangling Rope is also closed.

this is from their website:

Multiple Lake Powell Launch Ramps Closed Due to Low Water
Date Posted: 7/27/2021
Closed to all access: Wahweap Stateline. Closed to motorized vessel: Hite, Halls Crossing, Bullfrog North, Antelope Point Public. Closed to houseboat launch: Wahweap Main. Open: Bullfrog Main, Antelope Point Business.

Dangling Rope Marina Closed Through 2021
Date Posted: 7/20/2021
Due to significant wind damage and low water conditions, Dangling Rope Marina will not reopen in 2021.The damaged docks are not safe for visitors or employees.

This summary is not quite accurate...
There is only one purpose built launch ramp still open on the lake - The Antelope Point Valet Launch. All other open launches are in an improvised operational state with either boiler plate used to improve traction or primitive launch conditions. The Antelope Point ramp is expected to be out of water in September.

Current status of launches is mostly good, but Bullfrog Executive = Bullfrog North and it is 100% closed. The only launch on the north end of the lake available is Bullfrog Main, which is now a diversion from the concrete launch ramp to a spur road built in the 1950s or 1960s that has been submerged since approximately 1966. NPS has installed boiler plate on the road itself, but it is very shallow and will require a lot of drop into the water. Better success is had by launching off the side of this road, where the road base was built up and you can get much deeper faster. Still there are reports of people dinging props on submerged obstacles.

On the south end of the lake, Wahweap main ramp is still open for personal boats, but requires 4x4 since you are definitely off the ramp now. Boiler plate is installed in multiple spots, but there is a long wait. NPS has opened an auxiliary ramp that was constructed sometime in the 1960s in the area of Wahweap Marina, but it just barely opened and I haven't heard anything about how well it is working. NPS is working on stateline auxiliary launch as well, so they anticipate two launches available down south in time for complete closure of Wahweap and Antelope Point.

Halls Crossing Marina no longer has gas or sewer pumpout available, though they still have the store. When we were there a few weeks ago, the snack bar was open at the start of the trip and closed at the end of it with a "closed until further notice" sign on the window. I suspect it was due to staffing issues. I haven't heard of any service closures at any other marina other than Dangling Rope, which is hard closed due to the damage that occurred in June. The closure of Dangling Rope has resulted in rental companies recommending against taking houseboats from the south end more than 25 miles uplake, which has resulted in large sections of the lake being made available without much company to those who have bigger gas tanks!

Lake Powell is still one of the most beautiful places on earth. The change in water levels is opening up new features and views not seen in a long time. I am waiting for the reappearance of Gregory Natural Bridge, not seen in 60 years, up the Escalante arm of the lake in 50-mile Canyon. Already some have dived beneath the surface and passed under the bridge to the other side. Supposedly, we will be able to boat under it in the spring.

Caution is always key in Powell. Use Navionics charts to give you an idea of what might be there, but keep your eyes open as well. We encountered a woman who had rented a boat from one of the marinas up the canyon we were staying in who was very casual about the potential dangers in the lake and kind of acted like the lake was an amusement park. She hit a submerged tree with her prop and pulled the e-stop lanyard and was shocked when her boat wouldn't restart. Fortunately, she had a kayak and was able to come back to our boat to get us but was mad that her radio wouldn't work 5 bends up a canyon. The next day we heard her on the radio again as a person who had run aground in another canyon. Be prepared, aware, and don't go alone.

[996scott]

So the executive ramp at Bullfrog is completely closed?

[Zog]

So the executive ramp at Bullfrog is completely closed?


Yes, but PWC and non-motorized launches are still possible. They are building boiler plate to extend the ramps and they will be available soon, but until then, only the improvised Bullfrog Main is possible. Once the boiler plate is done, they will be able to launch from both ramps down to WSL 3525, or about 25 feet below current water level, but after that who knows what will be possible.

[Zog]

Wasn’t sure based on areas of Utah upstream being in a salt basin. Obviously the run off of rain and snow is fresh, just thought it could pick up salt on its way.

Out west, are there plans to build natural gas power plants to reduce need of hydro in case water runs out?


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Most of the upstream isn't salty, since it is in a different watershed (Great Basin vs Colorado Basin). Furthermore, discharges from all wastewater plants along the river are monitored closely by the Colorado Salinity Forum of the Colorado Water Users Association to make sure that the river remains low in salinity. Every river picks up natural salt deposits though. The Colorado is pretty low overall though.

There is enough generation capacity in the area without the hydro from Powell and Mead. There are many coal and NG powered facilities along with significant wind power. Gradually the coal is getting replaced by NG plants, but Powell and Mead produce the cleanest/cheapest power around. Every coal plant in the area has a planned end of life with most getting natural gas upgrades or being obsoleted. The nice thing about NG is you can locate the plants far closer to the population centers without the particulate pollution concerns, which makes them more efficient for power delivery than Powell, with its long distance transmission lines. Mead is obviously a different animal, since it has a high population center nearby.

[Yzfguy06]

really should change the topic to the west as this is not an issue unique to powell. it, along with mead, seem to get more press due to size but look up some norcal lakes and you will see similar stories. idaho's reservoirs are draining early as well but not to the extent of the colorado river basin.
the great salt lake in a similar state.

interesting story here from iran that talks about another lake that has shrunk to half it's size. I take it with a grain of salt as CNN can be slanted and pushing global warming but they don't spend a lot of time talking about dams which have contributed to the issue, only global warming as that's more "newsworthy".
https://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2021/08/09/iran-lake-urmia-fred-pleitgen-pkg-intl-ldn-vpx.cnn
google salton sea and there's another lake slowly drying up and it's leaving a dirt mess behind that are eventually going to cause some issues in palm springs.

Folsom lake just outside of Sacramento, ca NEVER opened for boating this year. The lake was not above 400ft elevation to open. I checked it last week and it was around 375. They allow fishing boats. The lake has a 5mph speed when it is below 400ft.

[2in2out]

Driving through northern AZ and NM today and I’ll say I’ve never seen the monsoonal moisture and green-up like current. I’ve done this drive 14-15 times and rarely see standing water in the drainages.


Making my new SA build come true!!!

[Zog]

My brother lives in Tucson and when I spoke to him on Sunday his eyes were swollen nearly shut with allergies due to all the pollen. We need more of that monsoonal moisture to hit up north!

[HFarr]

This has a really cool video in it. I actually took a tour of Hoover dam in 1993. It was awesome! I have a video tape of the building of it too somewhere. Gotta find it now!

https://www.accuweather.com/en/weather-news/a-fantasy-of-water-old-footage-shows-lake-mead-at-its-height/997437

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[sandm]

cool vid and story H.
my first trip to mead was in 1978 when you could actually tour the power plant and see all of it. a chunk is now off limits. I was MUCH MUCH younger and don't remember a lot of it but do remember the main control room standing right behind an operator working. it was a very "analog" experience. no computers.

spoke to a neighbor that had to yank his boat out on monday and calville bay, the launch ramp we used was 8 lanes in it's heyday. it's now a single lane on metal grates that if you go too far back your trailer drops off the edge. said go fasts over 32ft aren't able to launch anymore there.

first round of water cuts to AZ/NV/MX have been announced on monday. conspicuously absent are CA cuts but I bet they are coming in the next 9-12 months.

[Zog]

CA doesn't have cuts included in the agreement for a Stage 1 water shortage, so they won't see cuts for another year.

The situation at Powell is actually improving somewhat. They have opened a new (old) ramp at Wahweap and will have another one available within the next few weeks. The real crisis has now been delayed to next spring if we don't see some additional water in the system. Lots of rain over the past few days upstream though. Unfortunately, much is soaking into the ground, but flash flooding all through the Lake Powell system should bolster some of the issues up.

[HFarr]

I guess nobody usually wants a flash flood, but bring em on!

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[Holdmybeer]

Not sure CA wants them....flash flood = mud slides

However, it would help the fire situation.
Colorado river needs long soaking rains and, more importantly, deep mountain snow pack this season.

[2in2out]

Colorado river needs long soaking rains and, more importantly, deep mountain snow pack this season.

Everywhere west of the four corners needs light fall rains and deep mountain snowpack.

Since I’m moving to Texas, y’all should be good. As for central Texas, consider this fair warning the apocalypse is upon you. Especially after April when the new SA gets here. My dark cloud casts a fairly big shadow.


Making my new SA build come true!!!

[sandm]

CA doesn't have cuts included in the agreement for a Stage 1 water shortage, so they won't see cuts for another year.


ya, that's what I have seen in the articles I've read. kind of a bad deal tho that other states are impacted but not them. we're all in this together. you know much better than me where the water is heading but if I had to guess I'd say cali is the largest user. I know nevada uses a ton but part of our used water goes back. not sure all states are.
of course need to keep in mind cali gets cut food is impacted and pricing in the stores rises even more.

we all need to understand we live in a desert out west(UT/AZ/NV/CA/MX) and this article below should be some of our guiding principles for landscaping but travel to some other towns that powell/mead irrigate and the message is falling on deaf ears. sad thing is 2027 is a LONG TIME away AND not doing enough to force homeowners to do what businesses are being pushed to.

https://www.reviewjournal.com/news/politics-and-government/2021-legislature/nonfunctional-grass-to-be-banned-in-las-vegas-valley-2372927/

[HFarr]

ya, that's what I have seen in the articles I've read. kind of a bad deal tho that other states are impacted but not them. we're all in this together. you know much better than me where the water is heading but if I had to guess I'd say cali is the largest user. I know nevada uses a ton but part of our used water goes back. not sure all states are.
of course need to keep in mind cali gets cut food is impacted and pricing in the stores rises even more.

we all need to understand we live in a desert out west(UT/AZ/NV/CA/MX) and this article below should be some of our guiding principles for landscaping but travel to some other towns that powell/mead irrigate and the message is falling on deaf ears. sad thing is 2027 is a LONG TIME away AND not doing enough to force homeowners to do what businesses are being pushed to.

https://www.reviewjournal.com/news/politics-and-government/2021-legislature/nonfunctional-grass-to-be-banned-in-las-vegas-valley-2372927/I can remember my dad talking about sweeping the yard when he was a kid. It used to be that grass was not the norm for homes. A well groomed dirt yard was the thing. We may need to look back to move forward. I know the mower people wouldn't like to see that move!

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[Zog]

Nevada was the big loser in the Colorado Compact. They had no good representation and Las Vegas was not really much of anything at the time so it was poorly negotiated. Nevada takes out more than their allocation currently, but as you said, they return a lot of water as well in order to stay below their allowable limit. In order to make that work, Las Vegas has some of the most advanced wastewater plants in the country, treating the wastewater to a very high standard in order to comply with the requirements of all the users downstream. They are very close to the point where it would probably be just as easy to take the water back into the system as direct potable reuse since Colorado River water is not quite as clean. Perception is everything though.

The yard/landscaping issue is a problem though. I like the new regulations in Las Vegas against useless lawns (medians, park strips, etc.) and think it would be wise for all arid areas to adopt them. Golf courses are a major issue though and here in SLC we are on landscaping water restrictions, so as my lawn dies I get more and more upset as I drive by the country club and see how perfect their landscaping is. Now, if they gave me some money to replace that grass and allowed me to build a big garage, I might me less upset about the issue though.

[sandm]

Nevada was the big loser in the Colorado Compact. They had no good representation and Las Vegas was not really much of anything at the time so it was poorly negotiated. Nevada takes out more than their allocation currently, but as you said, they return a lot of water as well in order to stay below their allowable limit. In order to make that work, Las Vegas has some of the most advanced wastewater plants in the country, treating the wastewater to a very high standard in order to comply with the requirements of all the users downstream. They are very close to the point where it would probably be just as easy to take the water back into the system as direct potable reuse since Colorado River water is not quite as clean. Perception is everything though.

The yard/landscaping issue is a problem though. I like the new regulations in Las Vegas against useless lawns (medians, park strips, etc.) and think it would be wise for all arid areas to adopt them. Golf courses are a major issue though and here in SLC we are on landscaping water restrictions, so as my lawn dies I get more and more upset as I drive by the country club and see how perfect their landscaping is. Now, if they gave me some money to replace that grass and allowed me to build a big garage, I might me less upset about the issue though.

last I saw vegas sends 95% of household water back to mead. the other 5 is black water that is disposed of. landscape only has about half going back but that's better than most cities. imo everyone along the colorado that use it for water should be no grass designation but in utah-slc, that will NEVER happen. most houses having a small army of kids and no lawn..... and we know LA won't ever get to a point of no grass. I see it more and more here. we only have 2 houses left on my street with grass and one is going away this winter.
we got a check from snwa for $2300 rough and tough to remove our grass in the front. property now has a lien from snwa that no one can put grass back OR put a pool in. I'm ok with that. more should be done but most people just don't care. "I turn the faucet on and water comes out. what's the issue?" see a lot of that mentality especially from the non-natives moving here. we are not native but "get it". no boat anymore but also understand the economic benefit from mead.
golf courses here tout reclaimed water and a few have shown zero water waste, it all goes back to mead, but I don't buy it. golf, just like boating, feel "entitled" to the water and seem to bitch as loud as everyone that it's expected but don't want to look at other avenues to reduce consumption.

[Zog]

SLC is a little different with respect to water issues since all the water goes to the Great Salt Lake (Great Basin) and very little is Colorado River Basin water. However, the Great Salt Lake is drying up too and landscaping results in evaporative losses, whereas household usage results in down the drain non-consumptive use. Agriculture is still the largest user of water in both basins by far, but waste in yards is really not acceptable. In my area, we have a secondary irrigation system and users are not charged based on consumption. You can imagine how that goes. I have seen cattails growing in the concrete gutter outside of homes!

[sandm]

In my area, we have a secondary irrigation system and users are not charged based on consumption. You can imagine how that goes. I have seen cattails growing in the concrete gutter outside of homes!

boise has the same thing. pressurized irrigation based on watershares from the fields that all the subdivisions spring up out of. my second house had it and first was putting it thru the neighborhood when we sold(looonnngggg story there that's kinda funny but for another day-you would get a kick out of it since you have a deep understanding of water rights). I thought same thing until someone educated me on water. we now work to conserve it in most places we have lived.

know that slc gets it from salt lake and you are correct that it is drying up just as fast as powell/mead. so are most of the rest of the reservoirs around the west.

funny thing is we'll all conserve and powell/mead will likely go back up again over the next few years and once the danger is in the rear view mirror, water shares will go back to "normal" until it's crisis red light again. short term water rights cutoffs should be leading to longer term cuts. we should be pushing to fill both back to the brim for times of emergencies but that won't be on the table.

[Zog]

funny thing is we'll all conserve and powell/mead will likely go back up again over the next few years and once the danger is in the rear view mirror, water shares will go back to "normal" until it's crisis red light again. short term water rights cutoffs should be leading to longer term cuts. we should be pushing to fill both back to the brim for times of emergencies but that won't be on the table.

I was hoping we would have learned lessons from the 2005 time frame, but we never really recovered at either reservoir. The compact mandates deliveries to the lower basin on a 10-year basis, so once things have recovered, the shortage will be restored downstream before additional filling happens, so even in a bumper year, we will wind up dumping Powell and Mead, extending this low water level timeframe. Recreation is too far down the priority list for it to be given due consideration and the Bureau of Reclamation views the past 20+ years as an amazing demonstration of how well reservoir management works, since this is the first time a shortage has been declared. Meanwhile, there is $1B worth of boats on Powell and Mead that are being jeopardized by low water levels.

[sandm]

interesting article that gets into how the compact was formed and who does and doesn't get water from it.
https://www.cnn.com/interactive/2021/08/us/colorado-river-water-shortage/

[larry_arizona]

I heard NorCal lakes getting much needed rain, Lake Orville up 20+ feet just this week.

https://www.kcra.com/article/lake-oroville-hydroelectric-power-plant-remains-offline-could-resume-december/38071906

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[Holdmybeer]

Looks like the mountains are adding much need snow pack already also. Maybe some life will come back to the area next season. Just depends if this can continue without causes more issues, i.e. landslides, flooding, etc.

[Zog]

Lake Powell has done OK as well. It has only dropped 6" over the last 2 weeks, when usually we would have expected a lot more, thought this could be due in large part to support of upstream reservoirs. Soil moisture has improved across the entire watershed feeding the Colorado River, setting up a much better runoff for next year, even if we have another year of bad snow pack (heaven forbid). I really need the local reservoirs to get better as well, since I can't get down to Powell nearly as frequently, meaning I haven't used the boat since mid-August. With the lack of use, my wife starts to get a bug in her ear about stopping the boat money leaving the account and I really don't want that to happen. When she gets to surf 2x a month, the urge to look at that payment goes down significantly.