Mask Mandate

[zabooda]

How is everyone going to deal with masks next year when masks may be required on Federal lands. That would include boaters, surfers, swimmers etc. If you plan to summit Mt. Rainier don't forget to wear your mask. I'm not sure we gain much with the next administration.


"If you’re on federal land, you must wear a mask. In a federal building, you must wear a mask. And we could have a fine for them not doing it," he told CNN on Sept. 18."

[RC_Hinojosa]

Let's leave this forum for boats please.





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[zabooda]

Let's leave this forum for boats please.





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Yea, if it becomes an issue with boating we'll readdress it. Good point.

[parrothd]

We've been wearing masks here, you couldn't even have 2± people in a boat. I've been rock climbing for months with a mask on, you get used to it. Now we gotta wear them longer.

[RC_Hinojosa]

We can all agree masks suck but it's obvious the pandemic is out of control in the US with spikes all over the country.

Everyone just stay safe this Thanksgiving.

Stay home and don't have a shit ton of family over. It only takes one asymptomatic person to wipe out an entire family.

If we want to have a semi-normal summer in 2021 it's gonna take discipline on everyone's part in the near-term.

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[sandm]

I'll take zabooda's side on this for a sec. way back in the late 00's several of us lobbied for the off topic section for conversations just like this. it should be moved to that section but that's what it's there for. sure zab was one of the og's that helped get all the added sections over the years....

that said, it's amazing to me all the people that don't think this is real. not a dr and don't play one on tv but common sense says masks prevent germs.
RC is spot on. only takes 1... use some common sense....

I sure hope they don't mandate federal lands. I believe mead is federal. not a chance my other half and I going out alone would sport masks but if taking others and directive is masks, then so be it although we spent most of our water time this year just the 2 of us.

[larry_arizona]

As a moderator of another forum......this is a forum killer.


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[996scott]

this would be a good "off topic" subject.

[sandm]

As a moderator of another forum......this is a forum killer.


meh. off topic section has been around for over 10 years and not an issue to date. this forum only has a few hundred active users.

[2in2out]

As a paramedic I know this is for real. Masks work, but the realities are that my social bubble includes my wife, my daughter and her hubby, and our grandkids. I will wear a mask on my boat when the LEO’s approach. I will wear my mask on shore, at the ramp, and at the fuel pump. I’ve written off eating in public, going to our favorite bar, and a number of social activities. I have to wear a N95 mask in my firehouse FFS, because we don’t know about asymptomatic spread. My wife is a nurse. We’ve already had COVID and I wouldn’t wish it upon anyone I personally know. But with reason being what it is, my social bubble isn’t going to be masked up while we are surfing. Like I said, we will have our masks for the ramp, the beach, the sand bar, or whatever interaction we have, but our time will mostly be maskless. Common sense needs to prevail. I understand Biden’s intent, and I hope federal lands leadership will also understand the same intent. 84% of my state is under federal management, but the majority of waterways are under state control, Mead being the exception. State and local mandates will be the factor, for most boaters. Exercise common sense and good judgement regarding aeresolized virus transmission. If you are symptomatic, stay home for 2 wks. Test frequently. Stay in your social bubble and have hard conversations about close contacts. It’s not a game. I was laid up with a severe cough for 5 weeks. I lost 35% of cardiac function and almost had to retire. It took me 3 months to recover after getting it a second time.

Is covid going to keep me from boating. No. Am I going to boat responsibly. Yes, as always. If you are on my crew, consider yourself special. You are in my bubble, or I know your contact history. If you are socially irresponsible, you won’t be riding on my boat. Vaccination or not.

[dakota4ce]

As a paramedic I know this is for real. Masks work, but the realities are that my social bubble includes my wife, my daughter and her hubby, and our grandkids. I will wear a mask on my boat when the LEO’s approach. I will wear my mask on shore, at the ramp, and at the fuel pump. I’ve written off eating in public, going to our favorite bar, and a number of social activities. I have to wear a N95 mask in my firehouse FFS, because we don’t know about asymptomatic spread. My wife is a nurse. We’ve already had COVID and I wouldn’t wish it upon anyone I personally know. But with reason being what it is, my social bubble isn’t going to be masked up while we are surfing. Like I said, we will have our masks for the ramp, the beach, the sand bar, or whatever interaction we have, but our time will mostly be maskless. Common sense needs to prevail. I understand Biden’s intent, and I hope federal lands leadership will also understand the same intent. 84% of my state is under federal management, but the majority of waterways are under state control, Mead being the exception. State and local mandates will be the factor, for most boaters. Exercise common sense and good judgement regarding aeresolized virus transmission. If you are symptomatic, stay home for 2 wks. Test frequently. Stay in your social bubble and have hard conversations about close contacts. It’s not a game. I was laid up with a severe cough for 5 weeks. I lost 35% of cardiac function and almost had to retire. It took me 3 months to recover after getting it a second time.

Is covid going to keep me from boating. No. Am I going to boat responsibly. Yes, as always. If you are on my crew, consider yourself special. You are in my bubble, or I know your contact history. If you are socially irresponsible, you won’t be riding on my boat. Vaccination or not.

Alrighty then!

Masks outside are borderline useless if you’re not packed into a mosh pit or something. Or an election celebration mob. Or a crowded stadium.

Masks indoors, in a limited airflow space and for hanging longer than a few minutes are something that makes total sense.

But, I am no lawmaker. Too practical for that, I fear.


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[Tommy2slow]

As a paramedic I know this is for real. Masks work, but the realities are that my social bubble includes my wife, my daughter and her hubby, and our grandkids. I will wear a mask on my boat when the LEO’s approach. I will wear my mask on shore, at the ramp, and at the fuel pump. I’ve written off eating in public, going to our favorite bar, and a number of social activities. I have to wear a N95 mask in my firehouse FFS, because we don’t know about asymptomatic spread. My wife is a nurse. We’ve already had COVID and I wouldn’t wish it upon anyone I personally know. But with reason being what it is, my social bubble isn’t going to be masked up while we are surfing. Like I said, we will have our masks for the ramp, the beach, the sand bar, or whatever interaction we have, but our time will mostly be maskless. Common sense needs to prevail. I understand Biden’s intent, and I hope federal lands leadership will also understand the same intent. 84% of my state is under federal management, but the majority of waterways are under state control, Mead being the exception. State and local mandates will be the factor, for most boaters. Exercise common sense and good judgement regarding aeresolized virus transmission. If you are symptomatic, stay home for 2 wks. Test frequently. Stay in your social bubble and have hard conversations about close contacts. It’s not a game. I was laid up with a severe cough for 5 weeks. I lost 35% of cardiac function and almost had to retire. It took me 3 months to recover after getting it a second time.

Is covid going to keep me from boating. No. Am I going to boat responsibly. Yes, as always. If you are on my crew, consider yourself special. You are in my bubble, or I know your contact history. If you are socially irresponsible, you won’t be riding on my boat. Vaccination or not.
Very well put. Common sense is what is going to see us through the pandemic. Where a mask when interaction with those outside your bubble is possible. Stay home when possible. Just because restaurants or pubs in your state or province are open doesn’t mean that they are a 100% safe environment. If you must eat out try to be as safe as you can be. Record numbers of new cases all over North America today. The status quo isn’t working so we have to change what we are doing. Stay home and if you have to go out please wear a mask.

[haknslash]

We’ve been wearing them all year at our factory and we still had dozens of people get the virus. Countries with far stricter lockdown and mask order measures than the US yet they are seeing the same spikes. I think masks help some but I don’t think they would prevent you from getting it in the end. That being said we wear our masks everywhere we go out in public as that is required here yet people still get sick so who the hell knows lol. Locking down a country isn’t an answer either as I think that causes more harm than good in the long run (businesses go out of business and people lose their lives, turn to drugs, alcohol and depression or suicide sets in).

[dakota4ce]

We’ve been wearing them all year at our factory and we still had dozens of people get the virus. Countries with far stricter lockdown and mask order measures than the US yet they are seeing the same spikes. I think masks help some but I don’t think they would prevent you from getting it in the end. That being said we wear our masks everywhere we go out in public as that is required here yet people still get sick so who the hell knows lol. Locking down a country isn’t an answer either as I think that causes more harm than good in the long run (businesses go out of business and people lose their lives, turn to drugs, alcohol and depression or suicide sets in).

Masks take a little wee wee tinkle on the fire, shutdowns take away the wood from the fire. Shutdown is the only effective way to really slow the spread, but the opportunity cost of shutting down is very stiff.

It’s a damned pickle.

At least wearing masks may prevent a little spread, but most importantly makes people feel good, which calms everybody a little as we get our asses kicked. Which does help.


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[SONIC]

I don't really understand the animosity toward wearing one.
It's annoying for sure but if it even slightly decreases the chance of you getting a virus that may kill you (or worse someone around you that's more susceptible than you) then just suck it up and wear the thing. IMO it's simply selfishness and pigheadedness otherwise.

As 2in2out said, I'm not going to wear one with my immediate social group as it isn't going to matter if we're all in the same boat (literally) all day long whether we have masks on or not, but when interacting with others outside my group IMO it's a small inconvenience that could potentially save someone's life.

How would you feel if your macho attitude and pseudo-medical knowledge caused you to refuse to wear it when you go to Lowes, and the nice lady at the checkout takes it home and gives it to her diabetic mom who then dies from it? Is it your fault, probably not, but you could have prevented it or at least lessened the likelihood of it happening by putting a mask over your face for the 20 minutes you were in there. It's just the least you can do as a human being to at least try to minimize the ill effects of this thing.

As to inside vs outside I'm sure as hell not going to wear my mask walking around outside alone. But if I come into close proximity to others sure why not?

I'm young and healthy and frankly don't care if I get it or not, but my mother and father both have preexisting conditions that make it much more dangerous for them so I stay cautious so I don't give it to them.

[larry_arizona]

Vaccine is the only fix and it’s coming.

No need to shut down if the vaccine is in rapid distribution and not everyone will need it to reach herd immunity.


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[dakota4ce]

I don't really understand the animosity toward wearing one.
It's annoying for sure but if it even slightly decreases the chance of you getting a virus that may kill you (or worse someone around you that's more susceptible than you) then just suck it up and wear the thing. IMO it's simply selfishness and pigheadedness otherwise.

As 2in2out said, I'm not going to wear one with my immediate social group as it isn't going to matter if we're all in the same boat (literally) all day long whether we have masks on or not, but when interacting with others outside my group IMO it's a small inconvenience that could potentially save someone's life.

How would you feel if your macho attitude and pseudo-medical knowledge caused you to refuse to wear it when you go to Lowes, and the nice lady at the checkout takes it home and gives it to her diabetic mom who then dies from it? Is it your fault, probably not, but you could have prevented it or at least lessened the likelihood of it happening by putting a mask over your face for the 20 minutes you were in there. It's just the least you can do as a human being to at least try to minimize the ill effects of this thing.

As to inside vs outside I'm sure as hell not going to wear my mask walking around outside alone. But if I come into close proximity to others sure why not?

I'm young and healthy and frankly don't care if I get it or not, but my mother and father both have preexisting conditions that make it much more dangerous for them so I stay cautious so I don't give it to them.

Who has the macho attitude and pseudo medical knowledge, and has animosity toward wearing masks?

I don’t see anyone on this thread with that attitude.


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[smitty75]

You wouldn’t know covid is a thing down this way (South Carolina). Hardly any safety measures and most people think it’s a hoax. I still wear a mask, but am one of the few doing this in public. I have spent a lot of the pandemic assisting different industries with managing covid, and am always amazed how differently it’s viewed and handled in different areas. Common sense is the only thing that is going to help until a vaccine is ready. But common sense is also what is most difficult or sometimes impossible to communicate or teach if it’s not already there. I don’t mind wearing a mask, even if outdoors (in public), but also know the limits of their effectiveness. If nothing else it’s a reminder to others that I’d like some space.


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[larry_arizona]

I have no issue wearing one at all and do with a full stock of N95 and KN95’s.

That said, we can’t get the “scientists” to even agree on the effectiveness, perhaps a pseudoscience to make people feel safer?

The data is highly suspect and we are only as good as the data collected.

I know of 3 deaths in my family/friend circle that were labeled covid and all 3 did not have covid, 1 heart attack, 1 stroke and a car accident.

This summer in Michigan, we were limited to household family only on the boat and masks at the launch, not a big deal.

Thank god several rapid vaccines are close so we all can get back to normal soon.


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[haknslash]

I'm not sure I feel comfortable taking a vaccine to be honest. A lot of red tape was lifted to allow the medical folks the ability to rapidly create medicine and vaccines, which is a good thing on one hand. But with less than a year of testing and no long-term studies on the effects, I just don't feel safe taking something that normally takes several years to approve through safety committees and testing. My fear is they might drum up enough fear to force companies to feel like employees must get mandatory vaccines in order to either get hired or stay employed. Hopefully it doesn't come to that. I just don't like the idea of being a lab rat. This virus has been so politicized that as mentioned even the scientists can't agree and seem to be steered via political agendas. Hard to trust anything these days.

[larry_arizona]

Nobody can force you to take a vaccine. Heck,Federal mask mandate isn’t even constitutional. But if enough people volunteer through common sense and at least the perception that it’s “the right thing to do”, perhaps it will all work together.

Fact is, nobody knows if this is the right thing.

Hopefully enough will take the vaccines to stop the virus.


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[schwan]

Welp, I'll chime in since I play a doctor in real life.

Seems everyone agrees, but yes, masks do help indoors.

Vaccine: there have been vaccines for corona viruses for a long time. There's a playbook for it. That's why it has gone so fast. NOT because of lifting red tape. You're not being a guinea pig if you take it.

I will be in the first wave to get it because of my job and I'll be happy to take it.

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[larry_arizona]

Welp, I'll chime in since I play a doctor in real life.

Seems everyone agrees, but yes, masks do help indoors.

Vaccine: there have been vaccines for corona viruses for a long time. There's a playbook for it. That's why it has gone so fast. NOT because of lifting red tape. You're not being a guinea pig if you take it.

I will be in the first wave to get it because of my job and I'll be happy to take it.

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Sign me up too, whenever it gets to my level of Americanism.

As soon as I get both shots, I am going straight to my favorite bar and DRINKING


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[rdlangston13]

I think if a lot of politicians practiced what they preached in regards to prevention measures you would not have so many people thinking it is a hoax. That and calling a gathering of one group of people "virus super spreaders" while another group gathered is just some peaceful protesters. That is what fuels people to think it is a hoax more than anything IMO.

My wife is a nurse and has worked on the COVID unit of a large Houston area hospital since they designated it the COVID unit in March. Amazingly she has not gotten it. We don't go out to eat and we do online order pickup for all our groceries. Luckily Gov Abbott got us Margaritas to go, don't think we could make it through this without it! Masks only partially affect me since I spent half my time on a drill ship where everyone onboard had to do a strict 2 week quarantine during which 3 Covid tests were given. I am about done with this virus however. I have not been home since Sept 7 and I am ready to get back to my wife and kids. being gone 10 weeks and only home 6 sucks big time. Eff the CCP.

[larry_arizona]

Absolutely confusing as to what type of mass gatherings are ok between a riot, protest, rally or celebration.

Some days you can celebrate and the next day you are told you can’t have a family thanksgiving. VERY “confusing” lol


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[sandm]

Absolutely confusing as to what type of mass gatherings are ok between a riot, protest, rally or celebration.

Some days you can celebrate and the next day you are told you can’t have a family thanksgiving. VERY “confusing” lol


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so true larry...
not to start a political debate but our countries leaders(on both sides) have not done a good job uniting the country toward a common cause...

we wear them every day at work and screened for temps. it's getting a little tiresome but since it's a mandate and could help others, support it.

nevada will not shut down again tho. casinos wield WAY too much political pressure to let that happen again... right or wrong...
rio opens in december even with cases going backwards. it's one of the last major venues to reopen on/near the strip. along with shows opening up again.

[rdlangston13]

so true larry...
not to start a political debate but our countries leaders(on both sides) have not done a good job uniting the country toward a common cause...

we wear them every day at work and screened for temps. it's getting a little tiresome but since it's a mandate and could help others, support it.

nevada will not shut down again tho. casinos wield WAY too much political pressure to let that happen again... right or wrong...
rio opens in december even with cases going backwards. it's one of the last major venues to reopen on/near the strip. along with shows opening up again.

Countries are opening up all over the world as cases rise. Guyana, where I work, just opened the airport back up to international travel even though cases are rising everywhere. I think in the beginning there were a lot of closures out of the fear of the unknown. We now know that while dangerous, it is orders of magnitude less dangerous than what was originally being reported, especially among younger populations.

And if politicians united us around a common cause then we wouldn't have a reason to vote against the other guy. Division is main game in politics.

[SONIC]

Who has the macho attitude and pseudo medical knowledge, and has animosity toward wearing masks?

I don’t see anyone on this thread with that attitude.


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Judging by the wording of his post, the OP. But it wasn't directed at anyone here I just meant in general. Here in the south (TN) I see it every single day.
Huge amounts of people refusing to wear them because its either a hox, or because the government told them to, or because they heard from facebook that they don't work anyway etc etc etc

[padge]

My main question is, if the mask work so well, why are the cases rising? An n95 May work, but the majority of coverings I see people wear don’t. I hear science this, science that, but the truth is, it he only way to really get past this is herd immunity. Any lockdown just prolongs the end outcome. And if the mask work so well, then someone wearing one should care less if someone else isn’t.


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[larry_arizona]

My main question is, if the mask work so well, why are the cases rising? An n95 May work, but the majority of coverings I see people wear don’t. I hear science this, science that, but the truth is, it he only way to really get past this is herd immunity. Any lockdown just prolongs the end outcome. And if the mask work so well, then someone wearing one should care less if someone else isn’t.


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Fauci has flip flopped on masks including several comments that they don’t work.

Great points, and the vaccine is the only way to get herd immunity.

FDA needs to hire staff and work 24/7 approving the vaccines so we can avoid another shutdown, we are too close to be slow now.

It would be nice to get factual data on death rates etc. We are making decisions on questionable politicized data. Data is unfortunately tainted already.


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[padge]

Fauci has flip flopped on masks including several comments that they don’t work.

Great points, and the vaccine is the only way to get herd immunity.

FDA needs to hire staff and work 24/7 approving the vaccines so we can avoid another shutdown, we are too close to be slow now.

It would be nice to get factual data on death rates etc. We are making decisions on questionable politicized data. Data is unfortunately tainted already.


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I do believe the death rates are going down substantially. In Ky we are having similar deaths per day with 3000 cases as we were with 200 cases per day back in the spring


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[UNSTUCK]

Where I live we get blasted all the time about wearing masks. It’s the only way to stop this. Now everyone is saying we need to shut the schools down because the spread in the schools is making it way worse. Well, you can’t have both. Schools are 100% mask all the time. So either masks aren’t working the way we are told Or schools aren’t the problem. So which is it?

[padge]

Where I live we get blasted all the time about wearing masks. It’s the only way to stop this. Now everyone is saying we need to shut the schools down because the spread in the schools is making it way worse. Well, you can’t have both. Schools are 100% mask all the time. So either masks aren’t working the way we are told Or schools aren’t the problem. So which is it?

Exactly! Perfect example


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[rdlangston13]

I think masks do help slow the spread but they are not 100% fool proof. In Houston in June we had outrageous daily new cases, Gov. Abbott issued a state wide mask mandate and my wifes hospital went from 70+ cases to around 10 by mid July. I do not believe that is coincidence. I think the rise we see now has more to do with people not social distancing anymore and a lot of people just flat out refusing to wear masks. People are tired of this crap and it shows. Even if everyone wears a mask, if people stop social distancing cases are bound to go up because masks are not 100% effective but they are more effective than no mask. And the mask mandates are not designed to protect people not wearing a mask, the idea is to protect people from the asymptomatic carrier who is wearing a mask. Clothe masks are pretty ineffective in preventing the wearer from contracting the virus, they much more effective at preventing the sick person from spreading the virus. Same reason we are taught to cover our face when we sneeze or cough. This issue is full of gray. I just want to be able to hang out with my friends and not have to do 2 week quarantine to go to work.

[parrothd]

Fauci has flip flopped on masks including several comments that they don’t work.

Great points, and the vaccine is the only way to get herd immunity.

FDA needs to hire staff and work 24/7 approving the vaccines so we can avoid another shutdown, we are too close to be slow now.

It would be nice to get factual data on death rates etc. We are making decisions on questionable politicized data. Data is unfortunately tainted already.


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They didn't madante the masks because there were shortages, they needed the masks for front line people. Now there's no question masks prevent the spread and prevents you getting sick, the problem is we have a large group of people spreading false info and not wearing masks and not socially distantancing. Herd immunity was just another trump hoax, just like drinking bleach or hydroxychloroquine.

[larry_arizona]

Just in..... Michigan going on 3 week lockdown.

Vaccine NOW!!!! Hurry up FDA

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[padge]

They didn't madante the masks because there were shortages, they needed the masks for front line people. Now there's no question masks prevent the spread and prevents you getting sick, the problem is we have a large group of people spreading false info and not wearing masks and not socially distantancing. Herd immunity was just another trump hoax, just like drinking bleach or hydroxychloroquine.

Lol so you think herd immunity is not real? That’s funny. Look at the statistics of people who get the virus. Over 70% say they wear a mask.


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[DNIXD99]

All of you have changed my mind. Thanks for the discussion.

[larry_arizona]

Deleted

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[sandm]

I think masks do help slow the spread but they are not 100% fool proof.

the bigger issue I see and likely points to unstuck's school issue as well are those that have a mask on but are not wearing it properly. putting it on under your nose or down around your chin do no good. my supervisor team get after the younger guys in my warehouse daily about proper mask usage.
then they all go to the breakroom/lunchroom and all bets are off.... we try to push 2 per table and when not eating cover up but no one does. they all think they're young and either won't get it or think it's like a minor cold. thanks to social media..

there is so much misinformation and grey out there.

[rdlangston13]

Yeah there are the extremist on both sides. One group thinks we are dealing with bubonic plague and the other thinks it’s a bad cold. Both are wrong.

I am in the camp if I’m not afraid of dying from it but I also don’t want to spend what little time I have home sick in bed. And I also need to pass three covid tests to go back to work and my family has to eat. We also rely heavily on my in laws to watch our kids while I’m gone and since they are both high risk we can afford to risk it around them. Our situation forced us to be very diligent.

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[2in2out]

Lol so you think herd immunity is not real? That’s funny. Look at the statistics of people who get the virus. Over 70% say they wear a mask.


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Acquired immunity requires exposure to live or attenuated virus to develop antibodies necessary to combat the virus. Currently, exposure to live virus produces antibody responses that last from 2-4 months in healthy individuals. Numerous factors reduce this ability, including continued exposure to high viral loads. Because you have, or are shedding antibodies post exposure, does not mean you can’t re-acquire the same strain or mutated variety. With regard to a vaccine and herd immunity, the vaccine has a short term of action. Pfizer’s 2-step vaccine has a 90% effectiveness for approximately 1 year against one identified strain. It may reduce the scale of individual response for the dg614 strain, but this has yet to be determined. The new Denmark mink mutation variant hasn’t been around long enough to even venture a guess as to transmission and antibody response. Vaccine acquired herd immunity would require 70-80% of 7.1 billion people vaccinated. Pfizer is estimating being able to produce 4-5 million doses annually which would first be distributed to frontline healthcare workers, key government officials, and first responders. Given the current success rates for the vaccination production, assume first round vaccine distribution for the general population in 1 year or greater.

A mask is like a condom. 98% percent effective if used appropriately. The mask needs to be used once, then washed , exposed to UV-C light for 22 minutes, or disposed of. It needs to be form fitting around the mouth and nose. Wearing the mask below your nose does nothing because the virus has affinity to the ACE2 receptor sites in the nasal mucosa.

Because of the frequency of air passage through the mask, it is a contact surface that is going to have up to 10x the potential for harboring aeresolized virus. Touching your mask is a no-no unless you wash or sanitize your hands before and after adjusting or touching.

Aeresolized virus can also enter through the ocular mucosa. The WHO and CDC are not addressing this route of entry, as it is a difficult path for the virus to make entry. I wear safety glasses and a form fitting mask when out doing the necessary errands.

N95 masks require sizing and fit testing to meet respiratory protection criteria. As with all medical mask types, even PAPR, they are one time use. People getting infected because they are re-using a one time use item, and not utilizing other safeguards such as pre and post mask contact washing or sanitization. People aren’t washing their masks. People are not maintaining social distancing. There is no way to eat in a restaurant, drink a cup of coffee in a cafe, or workout in a gym without a mask on. All of these things increase potential for cross contamination, aeresolization, and increased opportunity for inhaling virus bodies. With asymptomatic transmission, you have no idea who is a carrier.

Here’s the bullet points:

- Masks are effective if used properly
- wash or sanitize your hands before touching any area of your face
- vaccine acquired herd immunity will take years
- we don’t know enough about the primary virus or it’s variants to rule out any point of entry into the body
- misinformation and disinformation are causing significant harm.

Even the experts struggle to communicate the human issues with regard to the virus. They are bombarded daily with new information that may, or may not have been peer reviewed or replicated. At times I think they tap into the humanistic and optimistic information to give hope to people, and that message loses its context once it leaves the sender.

We have to learn to live with the virus and it’s variants. Future challenges that are very similar will occur in our lifetimes. It takes terrible discipline to keep from becoming a victim or making more.

[rdlangston13]

Acquired immunity requires exposure to live or attenuated virus to develop antibodies necessary to combat the virus. Currently, exposure to live virus produces antibody responses that last from 2-4 months in healthy individuals. Numerous factors reduce this ability, including continued exposure to high viral loads. Because you have, or are shedding antibodies post exposure, does not mean you can’t re-acquire the same strain or mutated variety. With regard to a vaccine and herd immunity, the vaccine has a short term of action. Pfizer’s 2-step vaccine has a 90% effectiveness for approximately 1 year against one identified strain. It may reduce the scale of individual response for the dg614 strain, but this has yet to be determined. The new Denmark mink mutation variant hasn’t been around long enough to even venture a guess as to transmission and antibody response. Vaccine acquired herd immunity would require 70-80% of 7.1 billion people vaccinated. Pfizer is estimating being able to produce 4-5 million doses annually which would first be distributed to frontline healthcare workers, key government officials, and first responders. Given the current success rates for the vaccination production, assume first round vaccine distribution for the general population in 1 year or greater.

A mask is like a condom. 98% percent effective if used appropriately. The mask needs to be used once, then washed , exposed to UV-C light for 22 minutes, or disposed of. It needs to be form fitting around the mouth and nose. Wearing the mask below your nose does nothing because the virus has affinity to the ACE2 receptor sites in the nasal mucosa.

Because of the frequency of air passage through the mask, it is a contact surface that is going to have up to 10x the potential for harboring aeresolized virus. Touching your mask is a no-no unless you wash or sanitize your hands before and after adjusting or touching.

Aeresolized virus can also enter through the ocular mucosa. The WHO and CDC are not addressing this route of entry, as it is a difficult path for the virus to make entry. I wear safety glasses and a form fitting mask when out doing the necessary errands.

N95 masks require sizing and fit testing to meet respiratory protection criteria. As with all medical mask types, even PAPR, they are one time use. People getting infected because they are re-using a one time use item, and not utilizing other safeguards such as pre and post mask contact washing or sanitization. People aren’t washing their masks. People are not maintaining social distancing. There is no way to eat in a restaurant, drink a cup of coffee in a cafe, or workout in a gym without a mask on. All of these things increase potential for cross contamination, aeresolization, and increased opportunity for inhaling virus bodies. With asymptomatic transmission, you have no idea who is a carrier.

Here’s the bullet points:

- Masks are effective if used properly
- wash or sanitize your hands before touching any area of your face
- vaccine acquired herd immunity will take years
- we don’t know enough about the primary virus or it’s variants to rule out any point of entry into the body
- misinformation and disinformation are causing significant harm.

Even the experts struggle to communicate the human issues with regard to the virus. They are bombarded daily with new information that may, or may not have been peer reviewed or replicated. At times I think they tap into the humanistic and optimistic information to give hope to people, and that message loses its context once it leaves the sender.

We have to learn to live with the virus and it’s variants. Future challenges that are very similar will occur in our lifetimes. It takes terrible discipline to keep from becoming a victim or making more.

This is the numbers quoted in a weekly email
Update from my wife’s hospital regards to vaccine production

Pfizer says up to 50 million doses could be available globally by the end of the year, with 1.3 billion available in 2021 -enough to vaccinate about 650 million people, considering each person gets two doses.

Also I will say that herd immunity is not a Trump hoax. It’s the active plan that has been used in Sweden since this began.


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[larry_arizona]

If the vaccine doesn’t work then I am afraid we will just have to live with the virus running it’s course and the cards falling where they may.

No way we can continue this for years.


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[sandm]

Also I will say that herd immunity is not a Trump hoax. It’s the active plan that has been used in Sweden since this began.


might want to re-think the sweden example. they have issues tighter lockdowns in the last few days as their original plan didn't work as advertised. masks are somewhat optional but they are shutting things down in a majority of the country.

https://www.euronews.com/2020/11/13/sweden-introduces-tighter-restrictions-to-halt-surging-coronavirus-cases

it's definitely changed our living and spending patterns. not sure even when it's gone/eradicated that we will go back to how we spent before....

[parrothd]

might want to re-think the sweden example. they have issues tighter lockdowns in the last few days as their original plan didn't work as advertised. masks are somewhat optional but they are shutting things down in a majority of the country.

https://www.euronews.com/2020/11/13/sweden-introduces-tighter-restrictions-to-halt-surging-coronavirus-cases

it's definitely changed our living and spending patterns. not sure even when it's gone/eradicated that we will go back to how we spent before....

Was just going to say, that the sewden herd immunity not working too, a simple Google search shoes it didn't work. The first result is:

"Swedish surge in Covid cases dashes immunity hopes"

[dakota4ce]

Was just going to say, that the sewden herd immunity not working too, a simple Google search shoes it didn't work. The first result is:

"Swedish surge in Covid cases dashes immunity hopes"

With regard though to Sweden’s approach—are they worse off than us? They have maintained normalcy to a degree leading to this point, we have been at each other’s throats and been shut down to various degrees countrywide. And now we both have surges.

Which route is better?

A question worth examination.


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[parrothd]

With regard though to Sweden’s approach—are they worse off than us? They have maintained normalcy to a degree leading to this point, we have been at each other’s throats and been shut down to various degrees countrywide. And now we both have surges.

Which route is better?

A question worth examination.


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The one where I don't die or anyone I care about dies or gets sick, I know selfish..

[2in2out]

With regard though to Sweden’s approach—are they worse off than us? They have maintained normalcy to a degree leading to this point, we have been at each other’s throats and been shut down to various degrees countrywide. And now we both have surges.

Which route is better?

A question worth examination.


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Social differences between Sweden and the US are kind of a apples and pears comparison. Similar on the outside, but very different. But you have to have sustained immunity for herd immunity. When vaccinated immunity only lasts for 1-2 years, and non-vaccinated immunity is 2-4 months, herd immunity is only achievable when you completely close every community. It is an ill informed approach to a novel pathogen. We need to strike the term “herd immunity” from the narrative.

[larry_arizona]

Thanks China!!!!


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[dakota4ce]

Social differences between Sweden and the US are kind of a apples and pears comparison. Similar on the outside, but very different. But you have to have sustained immunity for herd immunity. When vaccinated immunity only lasts for 1-2 years, and non-vaccinated immunity is 2-4 months, herd immunity is only achievable when you completely close every community. It is an ill informed approach to a novel pathogen. We need to strike the term “herd immunity” from the narrative.

That may be so, not concerned about the actual words used.

Wondering if one approach has been worse than the other....did they end up in a worse place after all this? I am literally asking.

But I agree that the USA has been boned like a barncat from step one, because of the level of individuality to which we are accustomed (even kind of celebrated), and the wide differences in social, political factions. It’s the worst place for a pandemic in the history of the world.


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[dakota4ce]

The one where I don't die or anyone I care about dies or gets sick, I know selfish..

I am trying and I have no clue what you’re meaning here.

I don’t think anyone anywhere is interested in dying or having loved ones die.


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[2in2out]

The one where I don't die or anyone I care about dies or gets sick, I know selfish..

This!!! Wearing a mask is a simple task. Sanitizing and washing hands is the greatest means of stopping disease spread period. Spatial distancing still allows for socialization. These are not unreasonable expectations, and I am not sorry for expecting that kind of behavior.

[dakota4ce]

This!!! Wearing a mask is a simple task. Sanitizing and washing hands is the greatest means of stopping disease spread period. Spatial distancing still allows for socialization. These are not unreasonable expectations, and I am not sorry for expecting that kind of behavior.

The greatest means of stopping this virus is not going near each other. Ever.

Washing hands, wearing masks—-might help a very little, but let’s be honest about how to stop this spread. It’s lockdown.

Can we lock this country down? I can survive it. No problem. But can the nation? At what cost?

It’s literally a lose lose situation. There’s no remedy.

I am happy wearing a mask. Doesn’t bother me. Actually do all day every day in the hospital. But your average redneck out in the sticks can’t be trusted to wear a mask properly. And even so, as long as things are open, schools are open, spread is going to continue.

As terrible as things are here in the Dakotas right now, we still have hospital beds. We are actually succeeding still at the original goal: flattening the curve enough to not completely overwhelm the healthcare system.

Somewhere along the way, flattening the curve has morphed into an expectation of stopping the virus. Which is a pipe dream. It’s the most unstoppable force in nature: a virus with bad intentions.

If we want to slow this bad boy with any degree of success, we need to lock this bad boy down, hard. And even at that, is that a success?

It’s a damned pickle. I respect everyone on both sides. They have passion, and even decent reasons. It’s a matter of what is practical. And there’s no one size fits all answer.


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[dakota4ce]

The only person I know (personally) that has had it twice is an essential worker in a lab. Has been masked like a banshee from day one, and has been completely unwilling to go out anywhere in public, and doesn’t have kids or a spouse.

Masked, isolated. Since the beginning. Has had covid twice now.

Unstoppable.


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[larry_arizona]

Perhaps if we had accurate statistics and data along with honest media, the virus wouldn’t be as scary.

I think we lost that opportunity.

The current narrative feels like Thanos snapping his fingers.


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[dakota4ce]

Perhaps if we had accurate statistics and data along with honest media, the virus wouldn’t be as scary.

I think we lost that opportunity.

The current narrative feels like Thanos snapping his fingers.


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Salient point. There’s no basis of unbiased information.


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[2in2out]

Wondering if one approach has been worse than the other....did they end up in a worse place after all this? I am literally asking.

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I think there are so many differences between the countries that it is hard to say. They have a statistically healthier society, less poverty, a more homogenous populous, more healthcare infrastructure, and a collectivist culture. Given how the virus spreads, I think their social factors make them more resilient during times such as these.

The US has so many factors that cause virus spread and increase fatality rates. Partisanship played a significant role, and a fundamental lack of federal leadership and uncoordinated response made matters worse.

Ultimately I think Sweden will fair better, but not because of their tactic to handle the pandemic. If you were to equate Sweden to a person, they are a 24 yo in shape female with no genetic predisposition, who works from home and has a small social circle, top tier healthcare, a well paying job that is insulated from large local or global economic shifts. The US is an unemployed, overweight black male with type A blood that has hypertension, COPD, and diabetes that lives in an apartment in the hood. They aren’t the same and one will have a higher probability of fairing better.

[rdlangston13]

I think there are so many differences between the countries that it is hard to say. They have a statistically healthier society, less poverty, a more homogenous populous, more healthcare infrastructure, and a collectivist culture. Given how the virus spreads, I think their social factors make them more resilient during times such as these.

The US has so many factors that cause virus spread and increase fatality rates. Partisanship played a significant role, and a fundamental lack of federal leadership and uncoordinated response made matters worse.

Ultimately I think Sweden will fair better, but not because of their tactic to handle the pandemic. If you were to equate Sweden to a person, they are a 24 yo in shape female with no genetic predisposition, who works from home and has a small social circle, top tier healthcare, a well paying job that is insulated from large local or global economic shifts. The US is an unemployed, overweight black male with type A blood that has hypertension, COPD, and diabetes that lives in an apartment in the hood. They aren’t the same and one will have a higher probability of fairing better.

Maybe after covid weeds out all the weaklings we can be a in shape 24 year old female too...


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[rdlangston13]

So quick question on immunity since I’m admittedly ignorant. Would continued exposure to the virus after you have had it and still in the stage where you have enough antibodies to be immune prolong the immunity? Like if you gave your body a reason to keep producing antibodies would it do it or would it not help?


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[2in2out]

The fragility and masculine insensitivity of the middle aged male in this country is frustrating. How many of them can’t seem to lift the mask above the nose, or keep the mask on two steps in a store amazes me. For those men that wear you masks diligently, you are men above all others.

But middle class women don’t get a pass either. Their self righteousness and indignation whenever you give them a sideways look when they storm into Starbucks maskless, rush to the counter to get their mobile order, then sit at a table gabbing on speakerphone for an hour maskless, while never drinking their latte amazes me. But I do notice many more women taking mask wearing seriously as a whole then men.

[parrothd]

I am trying and I have no clue what you’re meaning here.

I don’t think anyone anywhere is interested in dying or having loved ones die.


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It means take one for the team and do everthing you can to help everyone else and everyone will benefit, aka the pandemic will be over sooner.

[2in2out]

So quick question on immunity since I’m admittedly ignorant. Would continued exposure to the virus after you have had it and still in the stage where you have enough antibodies to be immune prolong the immunity? Like if you gave your body a reason to keep producing antibodies would it do it or would it not help?


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So far, the evidence says no.

Your T-cells, or memory cells, encode the antibody response, and reduces antibody production as part of a scaled response. A threshold level of antibodies will combat cellular reproduction of the virus rna. Exposure during this period will not initiate a new response from the T cells. Over time, antibody production reduces creating the environment for a new opportunistic infection. Then the response of the T cells initiated a new cascade of antibodies.

Part of the problem lies in the variants and overlaps in the RNA sequencing. Each successive infection should produce a more efficient response. The variants disrupt this efficient process, causing the memory cells to edit the response.

If it could be known the variant and response that would come with continued low viral exposure, then that would be an opportunity. But the RNA variants are so many, and each individualized response is different this is an ineffective methodology called herd immunity.

The common cold is a corona virus. It has many variants, but frequent exposure to it does nothing for immunity except for the short period antibodies exist.

[larry_arizona]

So far, the evidence says no.

Your T-cells, or memory cells, encode the antibody response, and reduces antibody production as part of a scaled response. A threshold level of antibodies will combat cellular reproduction of the virus rna. Exposure during this period will not initiate a new response from the T cells. Over time, antibody production reduces creating the environment for a new opportunistic infection. Then the response of the T cells initiated a new cascade of antibodies.

So what’s the point of a vaccine then?


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[dakota4ce]

So what’s the point of a vaccine then?


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DING DING DING DING!!

Great question! This son of a bitch is NEVER going away. Maybe partial yearly protection from a vaccine that manages to isolate the latest and most popular strains. But mutations and variations will guarantee you’re going to be hearing about COVID for a flipping long time.

Good news is, it’s not super duper deadly, but it is super duper contagious unfortunately.

Eventually it’s mechanisms will be figured out to a large degree, and therapeutics will improve dramatically. That’s the actual long term solution to getting back to normal. But it’s going to be killing vulnerable people for a long time.

A decent vaccine will help us bridge the gap between these states more safely.


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[dakota4ce]

The fragility and masculine insensitivity of the middle aged male in this country is frustrating. How many of them can’t seem to lift the mask above the nose, or keep the mask on two steps in a store amazes me. For those men that wear you masks diligently, you are men above all others.

But middle class women don’t get a pass either. Their self righteousness and indignation whenever you give them a sideways look when they storm into Starbucks maskless, rush to the counter to get their mobile order, then sit at a table gabbing on speakerphone for an hour maskless, while never drinking their latte amazes me. But I do notice many more women taking mask wearing seriously as a whole then men.

Where do you live? Is it a mask mandate area?


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[2in2out]

So what’s the point of a vaccine then?


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The vaccine presents an ability to boast the antibody response by having inactivated virus recombinating RNA and encoding to the T cells increasing antibodies over a longer period of time. Currently the Pfizer vaccination is projected to give sustained immunity to the original virus for 1-2 yrs, much like influenza vaccinations. As the variants get isolated, they can be added to the inoculation. As production is scaled, and variants identified and isolated, inoculations can be developed buying possible immunity. It isn’t the holy grail yet, but it’s helpful to reduce spread, along with all the other prevention measures.

[2in2out]

Yes, Nevada has been under mask mandate since April. Local mandates have been around for longer. Enforcement is uneven, and I’ve found that management and staff at most locations is spineless at enforcement of even there own policies.

[dakota4ce]

Yes, Nevada has been under mask mandate since April. Local mandates have been around for longer. Enforcement is uneven, and I’ve found that management and staff at most locations is spineless at enforcement of even there own policies.

Fascinating. Our state debates a mask mandate daily. We do not have one—local or otherwise.

Yet, even if we do, people still won’t follow it.

As suspected. There’s a portion of folks that will not follow, mandate or not.

Private social gatherings, open bars and restaurants, and our open schools are causing spread.


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[2in2out]

Fascinating. Our state debates a mask mandate daily. We do not have one—local or otherwise.

Yet, even if we do, people still won’t follow it.

As suspected. There’s a portion of folks that will not follow, mandate or not.

Private social gatherings, open bars and restaurants, and our open schools are causing spread.


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Nevada saw steady, but marginal increases with the opening of bars, restaurants, and casinos. When schools opened, then everything spiked. This is result of cooler weather, holidays, schools opening, and people recalled back to work.

Poorer populations are seeing significant surges, but other economic classes are seeing surges too.

[larry_arizona]

Vaccine #2 from moderna 94.5% effective, let’s go!!!


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[rdlangston13]

Reading the comments from the people who seem to be well versed on vaccines in this thread gives a great sense of hopelessness haha. I feel like after reading this we are going to be dealing with social distancing and mask wearing for years and honestly, thats not the worst. I am literally missing my kids grow up because of this and I can't keep doing this for years. Something will have to change.

It's interesting to see countries all over the world who had very strict travel protocols start to relax those restrictions just as new daily cases start to spike globally. It seems a lot of countries are coming to the conclusion that complete economic destruction is a greater threat than the virus.

[larry_arizona]

If the vaccines don’t work, then unfortunately the virus will just need to run its course.

The economy can’t be destroyed over a virus.

The cure can’t be worse than the disease.


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[DNIXD99]

I was in Vegas for a week last month. On the weekend I went to Freemont to gamble. It was packed. I went to every casino, and couldn't even get on a craps table.

My kids have been going to public school since September. Both schools have only had a few cases. Doesnt seen to be an issue with my kids schools.

[MJHSupra]

The part that frustrates me, world-wide pandemic that we are close to be 1 year into, and nothing is focused on the original cause, when did it actually start, trying to take global steps from preventing (slowing) future viral spillovers, getting China to share real information with the world, how does this jump and morph from animal to human, etc. etc.?

Yes, i get that Trump withdrew from the WHO, but I'm not sure they were the answer . . . .
Our media just wants to play power political games . . . .
China just goes about it's business . . . .

[dakota4ce]

I was in Vegas for a week last month. On the weekend I went to Freemont to gamble. It was packed. I went to every casino, and couldn't even get on a craps table.

My kids have been going to public school since September. Both schools have only had a few cases. Doesnt seen to be an issue with my kids schools.

Same—the schools seem to be fine, but I think the kids are some of the vessels that are fueling our community spike.

Kids eat covid for lunch, but their grandparents don’t.


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[UNSTUCK]

The one where I don't die or anyone I care about dies or gets sick, I know selfish..

People die. Don't want you or your loved ones to die? Might I suggest a few ideas to help you live longer?

Live in California? 606,000 Americans will die from cancer this year. (everything in CA causes cancer :D )
https://www.cancer.gov/about-cancer/understanding/statistics#:~:text=The%20rate%20of%20new%20cases,o n%202013%E2%80%932017%20deaths).

Do you smoke? 480,000 Americans die each year from smoking. 41,000 people die from second hand smoke.
https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/fact_sheets/health_effects/tobacco_related_mortality/index.htm#:~:text=Cigarettes%20and%20Death,-Cigarette%20smoking%20causes&text=Cigarette%20smoking%20is%20estimated%20to%20c ause%20the%20following%3A&text=More%20than%20480%2C000%20deaths%20annually,i ncluding%20deaths%20from%20secondhand%20smoke)

Do you drink? 95,000 Americans die each year from excessive drinking.
https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6939a6.htm

Do you drive? 38,000 Americans die each year in car crashes.
https://www.asirt.org/safe-travel/road-safety-facts/#:~:text=More%20than%2038%2C000%20people%20die,for %20people%20aged%201%2D54.

Better sell your boat. Over 600 Americans die each year in boating accidents.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/240614/recreational-boating-accidents-in-the-us--number-of-deaths--injuries/

As I type this, I'm sitting at home with my family, all with covid. For the most part we feel fine. A bit tired. My wife and one daughter can't taste or smell. My two other kids are basically fine. Oddly enough, I feel as though I have a BAD sunburn on my back and chest. Wearing a shirt or showering hurts. Statistically we are right in line with the virus. We obviously didn't choose to get sick. While, we did not choose to stay home and hide from covid, we were "careful", but not overly careful in our activities while in public. We missed out on two vacations this year to Alaska and Hawaii because of shutdowns, but still made two trips to Powell, a week in Huntington Beach, and a couple other smaller trips. Overall we've had a good 2020. And statistically we should have.
I know we are not immune from this. We can and likely will get covid again, probably next year. Am I selling our boat, cars, toys, living our lives in fear of death? No. Should we just disregard covid? No. It's real. My totally awesome backyard neighbor died last Tuesday from covid. That's as close as death has come to us. No doubt others on here have had closer deaths. It stinks. We push on. We make the best of it. We have to.

[DNIXD99]

Same—the schools seem to be fine, but I think the kids are some of the vessels that are fueling our community spike.

Kids eat covid for lunch, but their grandparents don’t.


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Actually....the majority of grandparents do. "High Risk" is a little deceiving. It means your at a higher risk than everyone else. It doesnt mean the majority die, or are even hospitalized. The majority of people 85+ arent event hospitalized. Last I checked, they were 500 out of 100k for hospitalization. My Dad is 70 and just got over Covid. He is over weight, and had a heart attack last year, so we were a little concerned, but he was fortunate enough to have no issues with it. The crazy thing is, my Mom who is late 60s, took care of him the whole time. She never contracted it. or at least never had any symptoms. Were trying to get her to get the antibody test, but so far she hasnt.

29201

[larry_arizona]

Curious......are “They” counting seasonal flu cases separately from covid or counting both of them as Covid?


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[sandm]

Curious......are “They” counting seasonal flu cases separately from covid or counting both of them as Covid?


that's a rhetorical questions imo. there's way too much mis-information and mis-diagnosis out there to really establish a clear picture of hospitalizations and deaths related to this and lots more that get sick, get better and never get tested so did they have covid or flu? or pneumonia? or bronchitis?

[larry_arizona]

that's a rhetorical questions imo. there's way too much mis-information and mis-diagnosis out there to really establish a clear picture of hospitalizations and deaths related to this and lots more that get sick, get better and never get tested so did they have covid or flu? or pneumonia? or bronchitis?

Exactly, the data is largely BS and no way the best scientists in the world could use this crap data to make the right decisions.

By the way, unless you are wearing N95/KN95’s you are stopping a thing.

Most wear it for the perception, half wear junk masks or barely wear it at all.

Than the other half fiddle touch or adjust their masks which cross contaminates and fails the whole purpose.

Good luck people.


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[RC_Hinojosa]

Can I just ask who looked at a fucking bat and said....yeah, I wanna eat that [emoji1785][emoji2961]

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[larry_arizona]

Can I just ask who looked at a fucking bat and said....yeah, I wanna eat that [emoji1785][emoji2961]

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Apparently you have never been to China lol.

I have nightmares still about the lazy Susan dinners that was like an endless episode of FEAR FACTOR!!!


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[DNIXD99]

Bats are good. You're missing out bro....

[RC_Hinojosa]

Should we test Andrew Zimmern for antibodies?

That dude eats all kinds of nasty shit and he's still ticking [emoji23]

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[2in2out]

My theories about the origins of SARS/CoV-2. We know that only two species carried this up until sept 2019. Asian bats and pangolins are the only species to carry the variant that was identified at the start of pandalerium. Even though pangolin trade does happen, it’s low probability of species jump, as pangolin is dried and cured to increase male virility or whatever.

IMHO I think a cat, ate a bat, then covid made the species jump between cat and human. Where this occurred? Most likely not the Wuhan wet market, as noted by RNA analysis. It was closer to the Chinese coast.

Why do I think this? My cats (x3 of them) got sick with upper respiratory symptoms within days of me getting sick with covid. It is proven cats can become infected with the same virus we can. 2 tigers in New York zoo, 7 other feline species contracted covid in March /April during the spike in New York. Anecdotal, yes. Suspect, yes. I think the household pet transmission vehicle is highly probable.

[htfit]

Curious......are “They” counting seasonal flu cases separately from covid or counting both of them as Covid?


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkI have not researched this to make sure it is true other than reading an article about it. Australia just got done with their winter season and there was not 1 reported case of influenza. The hospitals are incentivized to report cases as covid vs anything else so why would they not mark covid and get paid 3x-8x as much. Especially when your revenue is down.

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[larry_arizona]

I have not researched this to make sure it is true other than reading an article about it. Australia just got done with their winter season and there was not 1 reported case of influenza. The hospitals are incentivized to report cases as covid vs anything else so why would they not mark covid and get paid 3x-8x as much. Especially when your revenue is down.

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For the record, as of yesterday, Michigan has zero recorded cases of seasonal flu so far this year.


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[2in2out]

Rapid influenza tests are used at hospitals and other healthcare centers to rule out flu from other causes. Because the symptoms are so similar, any person with flu-like symptoms gets a rapid influenza test. Covid numbers are based on a positive test, with other causes ruled-out. Only severe flu cases are hospitalized and take much longer to develop the pneumonia’s and septicemia’s that cause death.

Every death is caused by cardiac arrest. What preceded the cardiac arrest is the primary factor for cause of death. Yes, a patient may have terminal cancer, but until they got covid, they were living with the cancer. With a covid diagnosis you have an end insult leading to cardiac arrest. It could be from alveolar collapse and an inability to oxygenate. It could be an inflammation cascade that causes massive clotting that causes cardiac arrest. Doctors and Medical examiners take this stuff seriously in determining cause.

In my county, the medical examiner must investigate every out-of-hospital death. In hospital deaths the attending physician at time of death considers cause and it is reviewed by the ME.

Emergency funding is a numbers game. States and local jurisdictions determine dissemination of funding. Preemptive funding is determined by hospital type, bed count, patient census current and projected, and specialty. Surge funding goes towards the places that are experiencing high infection rates. Funding based on deaths, is fruitless, because funding dead people produces no result.

[larry_arizona]

Rapid influenza tests are used at hospitals and other healthcare centers to rule out flu from other causes. Because the symptoms are so similar, any person with flu-like symptoms gets a rapid influenza test. Covid numbers are based on a positive test, with other causes ruled-out. Only severe flu cases are hospitalized and take much longer to develop the pneumonia’s and septicemia’s that cause death.

Every death is caused by cardiac arrest. What preceded the cardiac arrest is the primary factor for cause of death. Yes, a patient may have terminal cancer, but until they got covid, they were living with the cancer. With a covid diagnosis you have an end insult leading to cardiac arrest. It could be from alveolar collapse and an inability to oxygenate. It could be an inflammation cascade that causes massive clotting that causes cardiac arrest. Doctors and Medical examiners take this stuff seriously in determining cause.

In my county, the medical examiner must investigate every out-of-hospital death. In hospital deaths the attending physician at time of death considers cause and it is reviewed by the ME.

Emergency funding is a numbers game. States and local jurisdictions determine dissemination of funding. Preemptive funding is determined by hospital type, bed count, patient census current and projected, and specialty. Surge funding goes towards the places that are experiencing high infection rates. Funding based on deaths, is fruitless, because funding dead people produces no result.

How accurate do you feel the data is on Covid-19?


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[2in2out]

How accurate do you feel the data is on Covid-19?


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Because of the lack of national coordination, each state, county, and locality are reporting numbers in different ways. Without knowing state and local contexts, such reporting is convoluted. Such as, several days ago my county decided they were no longer going to test anyone that was asymptomatic. This undercuts the full scope of knowledge of spread. The backlog of tests being analyzed caused such delays in getting the results that local numbers were 1-2 weeks behind the true mark.

So, until we are testing everyone asymptomatic or not, and have a national set of reporting benchmarks and coordination, I feel the numbers are lower than the true spread of the virus and real case counts.

[2in2out]

This article gives a poly-temporal view of of the current cases in the US from March to Nov. 15.
https://apple.news/AqoNvsw1_QFi82UAjxJyizQ

Data takes time to compile, and if you have garbage in, you get garbage out. I would add 10-15% to current case counts to get a valuable reference to where were are at this point in time.

[sandm]

there's a lot that get sick and never get tested and more that carry and never show symptoms so to even say there's a 10 to 15% leeway is still a guess that no one knows for sure if it's even close. it's a good guess just like saying only 5%.
read a story yesterday that says you will likely report negative for your first 3 days of being contagious as it takes time to show up in the body but you can still spread it. this just adds more grey to the information. they had data to back up the story but like all data with the rona, it can be flipped any way you want to read it.

if a pt has cancer and is given a year to live, contracts virus and dies, do you call it rona as the cause or cancer? pt contracts rona, has a heart attack and due to the rona doesn't have a healthy enough system to live. call cause of death heart attack or rona? I would bet in both scenarios states will report differently. more grey...

all I will say is that I have no idea if masks are the end all-be all but I believe they can't hurt and am glad I live in a state that is at least doing something, right or wrong, as opposed to the current state in south dakota.

[larry_arizona]

I just don’t see the possibility of coordinating 50 states to test consistently and report the same where the data is useable.

Heck, 20 years after 9/11 the top government offices still can’t communicate clearly.

Not getting political, but no administration could pull that off without being grossly unconstitutional.

But considering the data is grossly underreported on the number of positive cases and grossly over reported on the number of deaths caused by covid, the death rate from covid must be exponentially lower.

I am not a covid denier, it’s real and it can kill. I wear a good mask properly to protect myself/family and I honestly don’t trust anyone from the government or media on what is reported. I also don’t look for the government to tell me what to do, I rely on common sense and good judgement to survive, including social distancing and avoiding risky behaviors.

If I get it, I did my best and what happens will happen, I do not fall victim to fear or conspiracy.

When the vaccine is available to the general public, I will get it without fear and look forward to a normal life. The ONLY thing I ask of the government is work 25/8 to get these vaccines approved NOW!!


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[dakota4ce]

there's a lot that get sick and never get tested and more that carry and never show symptoms so to even say there's a 10 to 15% leeway is still a guess that no one knows for sure if it's even close. it's a good guess just like saying only 5%.
read a story yesterday that says you will likely report negative for your first 3 days of being contagious as it takes time to show up in the body but you can still spread it. this just adds more grey to the information. they had data to back up the story but like all data with the rona, it can be flipped any way you want to read it.

if a pt has cancer and is given a year to live, contracts virus and dies, do you call it rona as the cause or cancer? pt contracts rona, has a heart attack and due to the rona doesn't have a healthy enough system to live. call cause of death heart attack or rona? I would bet in both scenarios states will report differently. more grey...

all I will say is that I have no idea if masks are the end all-be all but I believe they can't hurt and am glad I live in a state that is at least doing something, right or wrong, as opposed to the current state in south dakota.

I live in South Dakota. We don’t have a mask “MANDATE” but most of us wear masks.

Meanwhile, earlier on this thread, a post described abysmal mask usage in Nevada, which is a long time mandated state.

My guess is the actual usage in each of these two states is very similar. We aren’t morons, or savages. The appearance that we are is because we lack a “mandate.” The governor doesn’t believe she has the authority, and questions if a mandate changes anything compliance-wise. That’s the real situation. Interpreted in a much more negative way by national media.

She could issue a “mandate” I suppose, legal or not. Maybe it would make people feel better (outside of South Dakota).


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[2in2out]

I just don’t see the possibility of coordinating 50 states to test consistently and report the same where the data is useable.

Heck, 20 years after 9/11 the top government offices still can’t communicate clearly.

Not getting political, but no administration could pull that off without being grossly unconstitutional.

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The National Incident Management System (NIMS) was set up post 9/11 and had some significant tests and lessons learned from hurricane Katrina. Key features are modular response organizations that use common terminology and report to a central coordination center. Most of the public didn’t realized the scale of response during the H1N1 outbreak, which, for the first test of pandemic response went fairly well. The economic crisis shifted funding from training and stockpiling, and a lot of institutional knowledge was lost as a result of attrition.

That being said, some states just won’t get completely on board. I taught a class in Texas and I was using Standard NIMS terminology, and the participants kept getting confused because their state and local terminologies were different.

The national response framework exists. It hasn’t been exercised in a while, and there is a void of strong, experienced, national leadership. The White House has bungled the response. Both legislative houses have been stymied by a lack of central coordination. The CDC and FDA have been essentially thrown in front of a bus as a result. DHS and FEMA are non-existent because they haven’t been given a clear delegation of authority to get in the game. This is why you have 54 regions coordinating individual responses to 50,000 incidents.

[2in2out]

I live in South Dakota. We don’t have a mask “MANDATE” but most of us wear masks.

Meanwhile, earlier on this thread, a post described abysmal mask usage in Nevada, which is a long time mandated state.

My guess is the actual usage in each of these two states is very similar. We aren’t morons, or savages. The appearance that we are is because we lack a “mandate.” The governor doesn’t believe she has the authority, and questions if a mandate changes anything compliance-wise. That’s the real situation. Interpreted in a much more negative way by national media.

She could issue a “mandate” I suppose, legal or not. Maybe it would make people feel better (outside of South Dakota).


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I won’t say abysmal mask usage in Nevada. I will say the wearing masks properly is abysmal, because there is no local or national message focusing on the why and how to properly utilize a mask. Education would go a long ways.

The problem comes to enforcement of the mask mandate. My wife and I went to a local tavern to have some expensive craft drinks. They are only seating on the patio. We remained masked while ordering our drinks, and lowered our masks only to drink. Out of 12 other individuals seated at this tavern, we were the only ones that were doing this, even though at each table there was a notice that this was the expected behavior. Staff was uninterested in intervening.

This morning while picking up a mobile order at Starbucks, I saw a guy seated at a table, maskless, for my duration of 10 minutes while I waited for my order. He was not actively eating or drinking, just sitting there. Signage at each entrance is clearly posted that you must remain masked unless actively eating or drinking. Staff, again, is unwilling to enforce.

Local code enforcement is following up on complaints of businesses not enforcing mask mandates by employees, and doing spot checks. Washoe and Clark counties are the only ones doing this kind of enforcement, and it is limited due to personnel. The mask mandates for employees can be enforced because they meet OSHA criteria under respiratory protection and employer-employee protection requirements under SARA title 3.

Local law enforcement is unwilling to act as enforcers unless there is a physical or verbal disturbance. This is the sticky wicket of constitutionality. The only method we have for enforcing masks is social and economic pressure. So, is the mandate a mandate if it can’t be applied to one and the whole? And how long does it take, or at which tipping point does it become social convention? And at what point does public health endangerment supersede a perceived right of personal expression?

Back to the point, I wouldn’t call mask use in Nevada abysmal, I would call it inconsistent. The inconsistency occurs because the levels of enforcement are ill-informed on what their responsibilities are, and are catering to other sets of responsibilities.

The state has failed in its guidance and education with regard to setting expectations for mask use. How can you fault an ill informed public? And how can you truly fault the state when it took early and decisive action with what info it had in that space and time?

Now, I can fully say the state has failed in its messaging and expectations. Can restaurants stay open? Yes, as long as clear expectations of behavior are set. But currently, there are outdated expectations without defined responsibilities for enforcement.

[sandm]

Meanwhile, earlier on this thread, a post described abysmal mask usage in Nevada, which is a long time mandated state.


nevada, like I am guessing other states, has 2 areas that are at opposite ends of the spectrum. in las vegas, I can't go anywhere without seeing masks. I have yet to go into a walmart or getting gas on the bike and not see everyone masking-up when entering a store. I have heard in the reno/tahoe area it's hit or miss and it was very loose when in ely/wells getting fuel 2 months ago.
my last jaunt to idaho was similar. Boise was required and saw them everywhere but when we gassed up in twin falls, no one had them on anywhere.

south dakota was one of the best states in the US during the first 6 months. wonder if it has anything to do with it being a lot more rural and took longer to travel? is mask usage heavier in the populous areas vs rural so it was slower to spread?

it is interesting seeing 2 sides to society. I dropped off my slot machine hopper for some maintenance at a guys house that does work on the side. he wouldn't get within 10feet of me until I put one on. going to the centurion demo days a week later, I was around 30 people-ish and not a mask to be seen anywhere.

[2in2out]

nevada, like I am guessing other states, has 2 areas that are at opposite ends of the spectrum. in las vegas, I can't go anywhere without seeing masks. I have yet to go into a walmart or getting gas on the bike and not see everyone masking-up when entering a store. I have heard in the reno/tahoe area it's hit or miss and it was very loose when in ely/wells getting fuel 2 months ago.
my last jaunt to idaho was similar. Boise was required and saw them everywhere but when we gassed up in twin falls, no one had them on anywhere.

south dakota was one of the best states in the US during the first 6 months. wonder if it has anything to do with it being a lot more rural and took longer to travel? is mask usage heavier in the populous areas vs rural so it was slower to spread?

it is interesting seeing 2 sides to society. I dropped off my slot machine hopper for some maintenance at a guys house that does work on the side. he wouldn't get within 10feet of me until I put one on. going to the centurion demo days a week later, I was around 30 people-ish and not a mask to be seen anywhere.

Complete opposite experience in similar travels. When we bought our boat in Boise, hardly a mask to be seen. I think we were there within a couple of weeks of Sandm. We went to McCall, and all except the tourists were wearing masks, Cascade and Donnelly, no one wore a mask.

In Reno, mask compliance is ok. Carson Valley, poor as poor could be. Tahoe, being that it is multi state, multi county jurisdictional mess, it depends on where you are.

Rural is the ultimate social distancing, but if you don’t follow the recommendations when venturing into urbania, all bets are off. Plus, add in the statistical prevalence of risk factors in rural areas, and limited exposure to other pathogens that can provide a more consolidated immune response, someone who lives rurally will have low probability of acquiring the virus, but higher probability of adverse outcome.

[sandm]

Complete opposite experience in similar travels. When we bought our boat in Boise, hardly a mask to be seen.

Rural is the ultimate social distancing, but if you don’t follow the recommendations when venturing into urbania, all bets are off. Plus, add in the statistical prevalence of risk factors in rural areas, and limited exposure to other pathogens that can provide a more consolidated immune response, someone who lives rurally will have low probability of acquiring the virus, but higher probability of adverse outcome.

we were in tyrell's shop and ya, no masks but most of the other places we went they had them on. stores, gas stations, etc...

spot on with the rural statement and I still guess that's why the dakota's/montana were some of the best states and now blowing up. all it takes is one group to head into fargo/missoula/sioux city and bam. the entire county has it in a matter of weeks.

[dakota4ce]

Ok, so you would rather I use the term inconsistent vs abysmal. Semantics is fine—the point I am making is that our mask usage is on par with what you describe. Even without a mandate.

Enforceability is not practical—thats the issue. If it was a law then you have something, but that’s not gonna happen. It ultimately boils down to individual responsibility as you mentioned.

It’s just kind of comical how South Dakota is repeatedly singled out as a rogue state, when the practical nature of what’s being done here is as good as or at least consistent with what is being done everywhere else. But the political nature of this entire pandemic is what causes people to point fingers here and there.

People love to find fault, it makes them feel better. But, we are fine here in Dakota. Well at least as fine as anyone anywhere else is.

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[larry_arizona]

Enforcement is largely unconstitutional.

I get the mandate but it’s not law.

Americans are free last I checked and I know our Governor got her pee pee slapped for her use of power.

The best this state can hope for is Americans rowing the boat in about the same direction.


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[sandm]

dakota, get it 100% and you are correct...

but.... if the gov mandates something - for the sake of discussion, 80% of the population will follow. I don't doubt that SD might be as compliant as the rest of the states with no mandate at the same 80% BUT if they mandated it, would SD be a state that might hit 85% or 90% as those few that need the push to be swayed would do so? not sure and won't know the answer but that extra few % could save a few lives.

all up for debate and in the end, it is what it is but me? I'd be pushing for something mandated.
I hear from a lot that they "know" their social circle and feel comfortable around them but do you really know? 6 degrees of Kevin Bacon shows that even you and I can be connected to each other with just a few people. you don't know me but do you trust me enough to jump on your boat first meeting right now? that social circle likely has holes in it. just as ours does and maybe a mandate would plug one of the holes.

now enforcement is another story altogether. I witnessed someone walking into walmart without a mask last weekend and had a 9mm strapped on his hip. you think that poor $11/hr walmart associate is going to say something? the mgr did 3 aisles in and out the door he went but......

larry needs to hope not that we are all rowing in the same direction but that we are first all in the same boat.

[larry_arizona]

Just because I am carrying does not mean I am unapproachable.

The reality is, I am not defensive of well meaning people, ultimately only against the bad guy.

I however refuse to open carry for what it’s worth.

Again mandates are simply strong suggestions. We could never pass a mask requirement law.

This is why there is no federal mandate and each state and county needs to do their part is educating the suggested behavior.

Is it constitutional to prevent your unalienable rights of life, liberty and pursuit of happiness.

Communist countries pass out mandates.

You could never get 335 million Americans to follow a mandate.


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[dakota4ce]

All fascinating.

People who are not wearing their masks right now are not doing it because they’re simply unaware, they’re doing it because they don’t give a shit. The mandate is not going to change that. I don’t think a mandate would change compliance around here a noticeable bit at all. But, that’s my opinion, although I do live here.

I don’t need a mandate, as a vast majority of our population also doesn’t. We have strong recommendations, and that’s what we follow.

The governor firmly does not believe that issuing a mandate is legal. That’s why she hasn’t done it.


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[dakota4ce]

There are tons of businesses, in fact most of them, have a mask required sign on their door.


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[larry_arizona]

I feel bad about all the small businesses like restaurants, bars, movie theaters, gyms etc that are going under due to these mandates.

It’s easy to say what Americans should do when your livelyhood isn’t harmed.


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[sandm]

Just because I am carrying does not mean I am unapproachable.

The reality is, I am not defensive of well meaning people, ultimately only against the bad guy.

I however refuse to open carry for what it’s worth.


guy walking in was mid20's, black, wifebeater, pants down to his ass, dreds about as long and both arms fully tatted up. might be the nicest guy in the world BUT perception to most is a confrontation if asked by the walmart greeter who was not a day younger than 60, female and 100lbs wet. add a firearm to the hip and most would steer clear. the mgr didn't tho.



People who are not wearing their masks right now are not doing it because they’re simply unaware, they’re doing it because they don’t give a shit. The mandate is not going to change that. I don’t think a mandate would change compliance around here a noticeable bit at all. But, that’s my opinion, although I do live here.


I believe that it would change SOME minds up but it's all a guess on my part and you are correct, you live there, I don't so maybe all those that would wear are.
I do agree 100% that most not wearing them simply don't care. just like the kid mentioned above. and when he contracts it and gets sick, he'll blame everyone else.

[2in2out]

SARA Title 3 requires employers notify employees of known hazards, and provide for protections from known hazards. The law requires employers inform the employee, plus provide for PPE and training on the required PPE. This is a federal law, and state law only supersedes this law when it’s requirements exceed that of the federal law. State and federal OSHA are the enforcers of said respiratory protection and hazard notification requirement. Any business operating should have employees informed on the hazards, provided masks, and require there use during the course of work. This is one area of legally enforced mandate.

And according to tort law, if a business has a known hazard, it has a duty to inform customers and contractors of the hazard, plus provide mitigation to the hazard. It is in a businesses best interest to require masks in this instance.

[smitty75]

The hypocrisy of it is what drives me crazy. I’m happy to do my part, and I’m always conservative with masks and distancing. But when leading health organizations and our representatives making these guidelines only follow them when the cameras are on, it’s very frustrating. I’ve witnessed this first hand on several accounts, not just the news. I’m convinced it’s necessary to have some of these restrictions and don’t mind throwing a mask on and keeping my distance, but to hear it used as a political motivator on all accounts at the cost of us citizens is BS.


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[smitty75]

And on a side note, I saw some references to osha and epa in an earlier post. While epa primarily cares about the bugs and bunnies (not employees), osha fines have now topped $2.8 million dollars. This is primarily related to respiratory protection, incident reporting, and general duty. I deal with this daily, so if any fellow Supra or moomba owners need support give me a shout. Always happy to help out.


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[sandm]

smitty,
amazed at how osha is now investigating covid cases at work and IF it's proven you contracted rona at work it's osha recordable. this is just plain silly.......
it's like blaming your employer for catching a cold at work.

part of the deeper seed of our litigious society that we live in. someone is wronged in a way they don't like and first thought is who to sue.... spend 30 minutes driving on our main roads in vegas and count the number of billboards for ambulance chasers. it's quite sick.... and saw an ad for a lawyer on late night tv a few weeks ago and the scrolling caption on the bottom stated "now taking covid work cases"....

[2in2out]

smitty,
amazed at how osha is now investigating covid cases at work and IF it's proven you contracted rona at work it's osha recordable. this is just plain silly.......
it's like blaming your employer for catching a cold at work.

A cold is a communicable disease, requiring that if it was acquired during the course of work, it should be a covered and compensable exposure. Because treatment rarely requires other than self care, an exam by a medical provider and prescribed amount of days off, along with follow-up visit to release the employee back to work.

We have normalized the “cold” which is a corona virus of different origin and multiple variations, because of multiple factors. Employees feel pressured to come to work because they aren’t provided adequate leave amounts from work, or they can’t afford lost hours, employer threatening termination, etc. But the economic costs of the cold are fairly significant causing lost time, production, and increasing incidence of other occupational injury. Many decongestants cause dizziness or drowsy feeling, which lead to potential for injury or accident from those operating equipment or machinery.

Employers shun their responsibility to protect workers from infection, and employees are pressed to come to work sick. Customer interactions introduce every variant of cold virus, but employers shun, ignore, or are plain ignorant to what their responsibilities are. It’s a complex problem, and COVID has forced the need to address it. If it morphs into something with less lethality and mortality, it will be normalized to the flu or typical cold. Vaccinations will accelerate this normalization.

Being an employer sucks when you learn and understand your responsibilities under “community right to know” law. Employees and customers also have a responsibility, but to a lesser degree. The largest problem with this is the determination of where and who you acquired the communicable disease. With thing like TB, MRSA, and HIV these are fairly easy to chase down in the healthcare setting. They occur in well defined populations and locations. Contract tracing is easy in this regard.

With the cold, flu, or COVID, it’s much more nebulous, because of the aeresolization and ability to attach to fomites for transport. If the source is a coworker or customer, this is covetable under workers comp, unless the employee did not utilize appropriate and provided protections. Caveat is, during shortages of protections, the protection standard can only apply to the highest available standard. Currently, a single use level B suit and PAPR are the highest standard recommended, but which are in limited supply. For the general public simple face masks are the highest available standard.

Without frequent testing, we can’t define who is a transmission risk, and keep them from the workplace. Lag times in test results also create a problem for industry and identification of where contact is, and who is liable. The government has provided funding for employers to provide leave for employees when they acquire via occupational routes.

Employers and employees have a responsibility to understand their rights and responsibilities with regard to hazards in the workplace. Occupational protection is meeting significant practical challenges, and the legal challenges will be forthcoming. Vulnerabilities in contact tracing and privacy are already raising their dirty heads.

So, how do these challenges get solved or mitigated? It requires a coordinated national effort to address the number of challenges to society, the economy, health of the state, and cultural ethos.

[2in2out]

This is an interesting new study out that reinforces the protections masks provide and their ability to flatten the curve.

https://apple.news/A5kUJJIrlRH2Bdt7qhnTUTw

And this newly posted non-peer reviewed study that suggests that more people have prevalence of antibodies than anticipated. It also suggests in ideal conditions, acquired immunity may last up to a year. I’m cautious of this because it hasn’t been peer reviewed, and some may use the conclusions to support no longer using effective controls.

https://apple.news/A0C8GHCJdR0yaBnYx9OC0ew


https://apple.news/A0C8GHCJdR0yaBnYx9OC0ew

[Zog]

A cold is a communicable disease, requiring that if it was acquired during the course of work, it should be a covered and compensable exposure. Because treatment rarely requires other than self care, an exam by a medical provider and prescribed amount of days off, along with follow-up visit to release the employee back to work.

Being an employer sucks when you learn and understand your responsibilities under “community right to know” law. Employees and customers also have a responsibility, but to a lesser degree. The largest problem with this is the determination of where and who you acquired the communicable disease. With thing like TB, MRSA, and HIV these are fairly easy to chase down in the healthcare setting. They occur in well defined populations and locations. Contract tracing is easy in this regard.


I had a colleague at a previous job who was placed in a hazardous position and contracted hepatitis. He hired a lawyer and was able to get a good settlement out of the company for his lifelong condition.

OSHA gets involved when there are hazardous conditions associated with employment and attempt to minimize risks associated with those exposures. Disease is a hazard of many occupations and the appropriate safeguards are in place for most of these. What we saw with slaughterhouses at the start of the epidemic was insufficient protections for employees. They were spaced too closely together, there was inadequate screening, they had inadequate PPE. They have made a lot of adjustments to their operations as a result, in conjunction with review from OSHA. These facilities all have OSHA reportable due to the exposure of their employees and they are taking it very seriously now.

[2in2out]

This study (non-peer reviewed) suggest men surge with antibodies upon infection, but drop precipitously after. Women tend to have a more mediated and stable antibody response, suggesting that men may need more frequent vaccination, and thus may be at higher risk of reinfection.

https://apple.news/A_WJJzNakSDanl-krts8uGQ

A previous study I am unable to find suggested that male immunity wanes faster because of the lack of encoding information on the Y chromosome reduces a certain protein synthesis. Increased amounts of testosterone, a corticosteroid, harbor the protein making it available during the initial stages of antibody production, thus boosting levels of antibodies. Corticosteroids have been shown to be an effective treatment against COVID symptoms.

[sandm]

I need to take a step back with osha and get what they are doing. zog points out a business that likely needed to have someone come in and correct deficiencies and that's what osha should be for. the businesses that choose to create unsafe conditions. but to shift ALL blame to ALL employers is opening up a legal mess imo and another way for those that choose not to take their own health and safety seriously a way to collect a windfall.
for us here, we have 150+/- working daily in our 250,000sqft warehouse. I have 95 on my shift. masks are mandatory for entrance. we temp check(although imo that's a waste of time), we have a deep cleaning crew on saturdays come in and spend 10hrs deep cleaning ALL areas of the warehouse. we have temps on each shift wiping down all knobs/bathrooms/breakrooms/railings/etc an average of 10x per shift. eliminated all start of shift meetings and a few others. we are likely going above and beyond what most are doing in our valley.
I still see associates going to lunch riding in other cars with people they don't live with and as soon as they open the door to get in off go the masks. osha will likely determine that contact was "at work" but we cannot control every aspect of contact and at what point do people need to take accountability for their own actions. employers can only be held so far and if doing the right things, people can't expect an employer to do everything for them. but that's not where we are at in the world today.

there was a lawsuit that made a quick stint on the news 6 months ago here. landscaper had 1 associate. associate contracts virus. stated he got it from a client while doing landscaping work for owner. due to covid, owner's business is down 60%. when associate comes back from quarantine, owner lays him off. never hires a replacement as business is still down. associate hires lawyer to sue for backpay while quarantining and reinstatement or cash settlement.
osha would probably come in and say owner didn't do enough to protect associate. which would then lead to payout. which might then lead to reinstatement of job when owner can't afford to pay. associate knows virus is around. masks were mandatory at that time. not sure if associate/owner were wearing them but at what point does the asssociate need to take responsibility for his own health/safety.

[sandm]

something else to ponder over:

amazon has been in the news almost daily for rona issues in their warehouses. I have hired several from local amazon locations in the last few months. all say they are required to wear masks, sanitizing is happening to their satisfaction and state that the company in these locations here are doing what they can to provide a good place to work BUT with volumes increasing and headcounts at amazon up more than 30% over last years' counts, the buildings are "packed with people" making social distancing next to impossible.
the US has all come to expect and demand amazon deliver in 10 minutes and if it takes days, everyone is up in arms. buildings are already running 24/7/365 and adding labor is the only way to increase capacity.

what do you do.

[2in2out]

...but at what point does the asssociate need to take responsibility for his own health/safety.

I would expect the court to determine it was at the declaration of local or state emergency, notification of guidance, and governors mask mandate. If the employee willfully disregarded suggested protections, then the employee owns the risk. If the employer didn’t require the associate to wear a mask and remain 6 ft or more during prolonged contact with the customer (which was the guidance then), the employer can be found at fault. Also, during this time, only essential businesses (this is a broad and relatively non-descript category) identified in the governors declaration were supposed to be operating. Dependent on the timeline of when Nevada left phase 1 and into phase 2, the employer could also face blame for operating outside of prescription.

[2in2out]

something else to ponder over:

amazon has been in the news almost daily for rona issues in their warehouses. I have hired several from local amazon locations in the last few months. all say they are required to wear masks, sanitizing is happening to their satisfaction and state that the company in these locations here are doing what they can to provide a good place to work BUT with volumes increasing and headcounts at amazon up more than 30% over last years' counts, the buildings are "packed with people" making social distancing next to impossible.
the US has all come to expect and demand amazon deliver in 10 minutes and if it takes days, everyone is up in arms. buildings are already running 24/7/365 and adding labor is the only way to increase capacity.

what do you do.

That is a relevant and concerned struggle. The employees bear the physical risk of such a situation. You in middle management bear physical, legal, future employment, and emotional risk. I know because I am in middle management. While executive management has fiduciary and legal risk.

To reduce the risk means modifying expectations. Which is easier to modify? Customer expectation, shareholder expectation, square footage, or hygiene theater.

All you can do is push up recommendations to get square footage. Consumer expectations vacillate daily. Shareholder expectations never change. Crappy position and I don’t envy you.

[sandm]

Crappy position and I don’t envy you.

sorry, don't get me wrong. I don't work for amazon and situation described above is NOT our building.
just food for thought. seems we all want our stuff yesterday no matter the logistics challenges and then we all want our local friends/neighbors/relatives to be safe if working at amazon. speaking out of both sides of our mouth.
no matter the outcome, it's a lose-lose for amazon.
bring in more new hires to fulfill everyone's needs/wants/desires in a reasonable time and overload buildings with workers OR
cut staffing to do the right thing for the people working there to social distance and your order now takes a week.

[2in2out]

sorry, don't get me wrong. I don't work for amazon and situation described above is NOT our building.
just food for thought. seems we all want our stuff yesterday no matter the logistics challenges and then we all want our local friends/neighbors/relatives to be safe if working at amazon. speaking out of both sides of our mouth.
no matter the outcome, it's a lose-lose for amazon.
bring in more new hires to fulfill everyone's needs/wants/desires in a reasonable time and overload buildings with workers OR
cut staffing to do the right thing for the people working there to social distance and your order now takes a week.

I got that you didn’t work for Amazon, but logistics, no matter what company, are in high demand, as is warehouse space. A company like Amazon sets consumer expectation, and that expectation trickles towards the other segments of the logistics sector.

[DNIXD99]

Employees suck. You have to treat them like little kids. I'll never hire anyone again. Life is so much better without them. I've had 100% quality rating ever since I let them all go.

[RC_Hinojosa]

Employees suck. You have to treat them like little kids. I'll never hire anyone again. Life is so much better without them. I've had 100% quality rating ever since I let them all go.Best Trump joke ever, lol. [emoji1787]

You sir win the internet today!

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[MJHSupra]

Employees suck. You have to treat them like little kids. I'll never hire anyone again. Life is so much better without them. I've had 100% quality rating ever since I let them all go.

Awesome . . .

[sandm]

You sir win the internet today!


haha... I agree........

and yes, I never thought back in high school I should tell the guidance counselor I want to be a babysitter of adults. some days that's what my job is.......

[larry_arizona]

Not sure if anyone caught the roll out plan for the vaccine distribution just now, Very impressive thorough plan.


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[sandm]

didn't catch it. interested to see it tonight..

[larry_arizona]

didn't catch it. interested to see it tonight..

Good luck finding it. 90% of mainstream media refused to cover it.

Which is fine with me because it should mean my family/friends will get it sooner.


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[2in2out]

The logistics behind the Pfizer vaccine are a limiting factor. The Moderna vaccine is much easier to deploy, but I have concerns about their projections for distribution. Since I will be one of the first vaccinated and being one of those that will be distributing the vaccine, would be suspect of any timeline. The current admin needs to concede before any funding is authorized. Even as a first receiver, I estimate May before I receive the vaccine.

[sandm]

Good luck finding it. 90% of mainstream media refused to cover it.

Which is fine with me because it should mean my family/friends will get it sooner.


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that's crazy. wonder if our local stations will pick up on it for the 11pm news.

[larry_arizona]

The logistics behind the Pfizer vaccine are a limiting factor. The Moderna vaccine is much easier to deploy, but I have concerns about their projections for distribution. Since I will be one of the first vaccinated and being one of those that will be distributing the vaccine, would be suspect of any timeline. The current admin needs to concede before any funding is authorized. Even as a first receiver, I estimate May before I receive the vaccine.

According to the presentation , front line workers could get vaccine approved next week and first vaccines in 24 hours.

It is quite amazing. They discussed the temperature requirements of phizer and moderna and both are handled.


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[sandm]

what will be interesting are what the definition of front line workers are and sure it was laid out.
big difference in frontline and essential.

I would hope hospital/dr/emt and anyone working in hospice/nursing homes first...

[larry_arizona]

Pfizer is submitting for emergency FDA approval tomorrow.

Very impressive to see the CDC, FDA, Pharma, Fed Ex, UPS, wallgreens, CVS and the military come together.


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[2in2out]

The cryostorage necessary for the the Pfizer’s vaccine has been the biggest handicap in storage. It has to be kept at -70F for 6 month storage, and -20 for short term. Storage. This represents a significant storage issue as few sites have cryostarage facilities.

Even still, distribution plans are unfunded by a number of states and the cheetoh in chief and the senate are disengaged from the pandemic because they are so concerned about bot e recounting.

[larry_arizona]

The cryostorage necessary for the the Pfizer’s vaccine has been the biggest handicap in storage. It has to be kept at -70F for 6 month storage, and -20 for short term. Storage. This represents a significant storage issue as few sites have cryostarage facilities.

Even still, distribution plans are unfunded by a number of states and the cheetoh in chief and the senate are disengaged from the pandemic because they are so concerned about bot e recounting.

Politics aside the time from Pfizer to vaccination site is 24 hours with all the refrigeration covered.

The President was not even at the roll out. This was all GREAT news for Americans.

Here is the whole presser.

https://youtu.be/tZobU6u2Dvs


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[sandm]

thx for the link up. good presentation and pence was very well spoken. lets hope it's making an impact late winter.

[DNIXD99]

I'll let everyone else go first. I'm not an antivaxer, just figure there are a lot people that prob need it more than me. I've never even had the flu. Not comparing them. Just saying I don't get sick.

[larry_arizona]

Medical staff and highest risk first of course.

But once available to us regular Joe’s, I imagine it will be first come first serve.

Skeptics, anti vax and anti trumpers will be high enough in volume that people who want it should be able to get it sooner.


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[DNIXD99]

Antivax and defund police have to be the worst labels for any group. Haha

[DNIXD99]

I guess I dont have to worry about getting the vaccine for a few months, since I tested positive on Monday.

So far no issues. Ive managed to work at least 12hrs a day. Only thing I can do, since Im quarantined.

[larry_arizona]

I guess I dont have to worry about getting the vaccine for a few months, since I tested positive on Monday.

So far no issues. Ive managed to work at least 12hrs a day. Only thing I can do, since Im quarantined.

Get well soon!!!!


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[sandm]

I guess I dont have to worry about getting the vaccine for a few months, since I tested positive on Monday.

So far no issues. Ive managed to work at least 12hrs a day. Only thing I can do, since Im quarantined.

stay safe and good luck.

lots of irresponsible people out there. a distant relative's wife/2 kids tested positive a few weeks ago. they "quarantined" at their vacation cottage in Tamarack outside Cascade Idaho and posted pics during the week of the kids skiing as they didn't have symptoms.... and one wonders why it's blowing up the last month....
pretty good lesson to teach your children.

[larry_arizona]

Things that make you go “hrmmmmm”

https://justthenews.com/politics-policy/coronavirus/johns-hopkins-published-then-deleted-study-questioning-us-coronavirus


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[UNSTUCK]

Things that make you go “hrmmmmm”

https://justthenews.com/politics-policy/coronavirus/johns-hopkins-published-then-deleted-study-questioning-us-coronavirus



Information is now labeled as misinformation. Misinformation is now labeled as information. It's actually quite easy to tell the difference. If a story infuses fear and despair it is automatically a factual, informative story. If it promotes hope and encouragement it couldn't possibly be true and is labeled as misinformation.

[sandm]

Information is now labeled as misinformation. Misinformation is now labeled as information. It's actually quite easy to tell the difference. If a story infuses fear and despair it is automatically a factual, informative story. If it promotes hope and encouragement it couldn't possibly be true and is labeled as misinformation.

now that's funny........

[DNIXD99]

stay safe and good luck.

lots of irresponsible people out there. a distant relative's wife/2 kids tested positive a few weeks ago. they "quarantined" at their vacation cottage in Tamarack outside Cascade Idaho and posted pics during the week of the kids skiing as they didn't have symptoms.... and one wonders why it's blowing up the last month....
pretty good lesson to teach your children.

I would of never thought I had it, if I hadnt of gotten tested. The minor cough just seemed abnormal to me, but I could of easily shrugged it off. Cough lasted 2 days, with some sore back muscles. Thats it. Id still be going to the gym if I hadnt of gotten tested.

[DOCDRS]

I'll let everyone else go first. I'm not an antivaxer, just figure there are a lot people that prob need it more than me. I've never even had the flu. Not comparing them. Just saying I don't get sick.

Never having any symptoms does not mean you have never had the virus. Perhaps you have been an influenza virus super spreader.

[htfit]

Maybe somebody knows this answer. Can you spread a virus if you get a vaccine? So if, you get a vaccine, does that immediately make it so you are not contagious, or does it just provide your body with the antibodies to fight the virus?

Logic would seem that even if a person got the flu vaccine and then they got the flu, they could still spread it even if they don't show the symptoms. Right? Or what am I missing?

So the vaccine doesn't stop the spread necessarily, just prevents that individual person from getting sick, ultimately creating herd immunity.

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[sandm]

we were discussing this same thing at work today. how many will get the vaccine, rip off their mask and think life is good.

for the answer to any of these questions I say see unstuck's post above :)

[rdlangston13]

Maybe somebody knows this answer. Can you spread a virus if you get a vaccine? So if, you get a vaccine, does that immediately make it so you are not contagious, or does it just provide your body with the antibodies to fight the virus?

Logic would seem that even if a person got the flu vaccine and then they got the flu, they could still spread it even if they don't show the symptoms. Right? Or what am I missing?

So the vaccine doesn't stop the spread necessarily, just prevents that individual person from getting sick, ultimately creating herd immunity.

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I would getting vaccinated will prevent the person from getting and spreading that particular strain of the virus. Or at least that’s how my understanding of vaccines work and how we have used them to nearly eradicate certain diseases.


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[parrothd]

Sucks, but the new vaccines only works for the current version of covid. If covid mutates then the vaccine may not work, or might work some. The Flu is great example, there's 100? 1000? different flu strians, each year they pick what they think will be the top flu strains( like 3) and use those for the flu vaccine. That's why you have to get a flu shot each year and thats why some years it doesn't work. You got protection for flu version#1 but got sick from flu version#452.

[larry_arizona]

we were discussing this same thing at work today. how many will get the vaccine, rip off their mask and think life is good.

for the answer to any of these questions I say see unstuck's post above :)

Damn straight, vaccine and back to life liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

Going straight to my favorite dive bar and ordering a PBR.


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[DNIXD99]

Never having any symptoms does not mean you have never had the virus. Perhaps you have been an influenza virus super spreader.

*perhaps* prove it 😀

[2in2out]

Maybe somebody knows this answer. Can you spread a virus if you get a vaccine? So if, you get a vaccine, does that immediately make it so you are not contagious, or does it just provide your body with the antibodies to fight the virus?

Logic would seem that even if a person got the flu vaccine and then they got the flu, they could still spread it even if they don't show the symptoms. Right? Or what am I missing?

So the vaccine doesn't stop the spread necessarily, just prevents that individual person from getting sick, ultimately creating herd immunity.

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No one truly knows. We know vaccine acquired immunity involves 2 injections, 21-28 days apart, and approximately one week for antibody levels to rise in which an individual will experience a much smaller immune response. An individual who is exposed can carry virus in much smaller qualities, and shed virus in even smaller quantities.

What we do not know is each individuals threshold for infection. The vaccine raises the threshold, which reduces the amount of live virus that can be shed, and mitigates the symptoms of exposure (sore throat, fatigue, cough, fever, etc.).

It is possible to be vaccinated and be a spreader, but not a victim. The goal of mass vaccination is to get 70% or better of the population to a minimized potential of spreading virus in numbers necessary for overwhelming the bodies immune system to produce antibodies.

So, to answer the question, yes, it is possible to still spread the virus after vaccination. The probability is significantly lower when we apply known virus (flu, cold, etc. ) properties. Until we exceed the 70% inoculation threshold in closed community then a pandemic can be considered contained. Seeing as this is a worldwide virus in which we have a general idea that virus acquired immunity last between 2-6 months, and vaccine acquired immunity is “projected” to last 1-2 years for the current known mutations and variants, precautions will still be necessary for quite some time.

[2in2out]

This paper shows we have had a limited knowledge of, and underestimated how flu virus spreads, and also correlates the probability of coronavirus to be spread in a similar fashion, adding to the challenges of containment, and why masks work.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-020-17888-w

The gist of the article shows that flu virus doesn’t need a living host for spread, nor direct contact. Aeresolized fomites can spread virus merely through air currents, turbulence, and/or minor disturbance of the flu infected corpse.

This is why I won’t go to a bar, eat indoors at a restaraunt, and if I fly or use mass transit, wear safety glasses along with a mask.