Raptor 400 VS 450

[flienlow]

Can anyone form SC tell me what the specific difference between the Raptor 400 VS 450 is ?

Is it cams and Tuning? What would it take to turn a 400 into a 450?

I am trying to justify the $7600 price tag for the same exact mill.

404 LB-FT OF TORQUE
350 HORSEPOWER
89 OCTANE UNLEADED (MAXIMUM 10% ETHANOL)


452 LB-FT OF TORQUE
410 HORSEPOWER
93 OCTANE UNLEADED (MAXIMUM 10% ETHANOL)

Furthermore, what is the BEST Surf Prop for each engine with the W/1.76 Transmission?

[larry_arizona]

Your road block will be the ability to tune to ECM on the Raptors.

The 400 and 440 were rumored to be identical engines with the 440 having a hotter tune, in fact you could not order a 440 ECM unless you had a 440 both ran on 89 octane.

Not sure what of any internals are different on the 450 or if it’s just another hotter tune on 93 octane. Seems logical as cams would likely sacrifice low end torque for higher horsepower.

A good tuning rule of thumb is 10hp per octane point. 4 points difference from 89-93 could easily explain the 60hp delta.

I believe the 580 is also just the 400 with the supercharger.

On the Supras, Acme and SC worked on the 16x13.9 prop specifically for the 1.76 trans. Not sure if a 16 fits a moomba.

That would be my choice.

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[TXSurf4]

This I am sure of the 450 is the same motor as the 460 just with a smaller diameter exhaust. It is 400HP and 447 Ft-Lb. It requires a minimum of 91 Octane if it is E0 and not 93.
https://i.imgur.com/5xIVGyT.jpg

Now I am not 100% on this but I do believe it also has different heads than the 440 and 400.

[MLA]

A good tuning rule of thumb is 10hp per octane point. 4 points difference from 89-93 could easily explain the 60hp delta.

May be worth clarifying this before followers get the idea that running higher octane = higher HP/performance.

[larry_arizona]

May be worth clarifying this before followers get the idea that running higher octane = higher HP/performance.

IF ECM is tuned for the higher octane then 10hp per octane is a possibility.

Just putting in higher octane without tuning the ECM won’t help.


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[Panzer987]

Can anyone form SC tell me what the specific difference between the Raptor 400 VS 450 is ?

Is it cams and Tuning? What would it take to turn a 400 into a 450?

I am trying to justify the $7600 price tag for the same exact mill.

404 LB-FT OF TORQUE
350 HORSEPOWER
89 OCTANE UNLEADED (MAXIMUM 10% ETHANOL)


452 LB-FT OF TORQUE
410 HORSEPOWER
93 OCTANE UNLEADED (MAXIMUM 10% ETHANOL)

Furthermore, what is the BEST Surf Prop for each engine with the W/1.76 Transmission?

I'm not a mechanical engineer, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

I'm told most of these differences in output are far more often caused by tuning discrepencies than actual internal changes. It makes sense since an engine manufacturer would want to create the best economies of scale. They can make changes to the software far more easily and cost-efficiently to boost output than they can by changing internal pieces, which requires a lot of manufacturing change-over specific to the actual engine production.

Typically, once you start trying to circumvent the software, you start dealing with voiding a warranty.

[sleek98]

It would take about 3 degrees of timing to gain that 60hp. It wouldn't surprise me if they made the tune it for 410 package and then pulled a few degrees for the lower end package.

The higher the octane the slower the burn and the more timing you can run.

[MLA]

IF ECM is tuned for the higher octane then 10hp per octane is a possibility.

Just putting in higher octane without tuning the ECM won’t help.


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Thats part of what needed to be clarified. The HP is in the engine compression and tune, not the octane. Running the proper octane gets the optimal performance. Running higher then required gets you nothing, but running lower then required nets you a decrease in performance. You would want to run the oct that matches the engine and tune profile, rather then match the tune to the oct.

[SONIC]

Point of all this is to say:
Yes the price is crazy for just a tune, but there's nothing you can do about it (no aftermarket tuning available the ecms are locked) so if you want the power you pay the premium.
It's just how indmar makes money (lots of it I'd say lol) and helps them offset the slightly higher warranty costs on the hotter builds.

[MJHSupra]

I will find the thread on social media where someone from SC talked about the internal differences in the 400 vs 450. I thought it was exhaust, intake, and tune components.

There was a debate going on, but people were getting confused about the prior motor 400 vs 440 (that was tuning) VS the newer 400 vs 450.

[dakota4ce]

Point of all this is to say:
Yes the price is crazy for just a tune, but there's nothing you can do about it (no aftermarket tuning available the ecms are locked) so if you want the power you pay the premium.
It's just how indmar makes money (lots of it I'd say lol) and helps them offset the slightly higher warranty costs on the hotter builds.

Indmar lost about 3000 engines with Malibu marinizing their own motors.....I bet Indmar is really searching for ways to be more profitable these days. That had to sting.

I have always been told that there are topside components that differ. Nobody seems to know for sure!

[MLA]

Indmar lost about 3000 engines with Malibu marinizing their own motors.....I bet Indmar is really searching for ways to be more profitable these days. That had to sting.

I have always been told that there are topside components that differ. Nobody seems to know for sure!

This margin was set LONG before Bu announced they were going to marinize their own engines, and its also inline with others. Engine upgrades cost more, period.

[sandm]

it's all in tuning from what I have read on several forums.
I watched a guy years ago take my evo from 298hp280tq and with nothing more than a laptop it topped at 363hp/362tq.
I would not be surprised to see indmar tune the 440/450 on 93 then dump in 89 and sell a detuned version. it's been done in the automotive environment for years.

imo you can get just as much difference in performance from the proper prop than needing the hotter tune.

[dakota4ce]

This margin was set LONG before Bu announced they were going to marinize their own engines, and its also inline with others. Engine upgrades cost more, period.

Margin might be set, but gross revenues were slashed. It had to sting badly!


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[dakota4ce]

it's all in tuning from what I have read on several forums.
I watched a guy years ago take my evo from 298hp280tq and with nothing more than a laptop it topped at 363hp/362tq.
I would not be surprised to see indmar tune the 440/450 on 93 then dump in 89 and sell a detuned version. it's been done in the automotive environment for years.

imo you can get just as much difference in performance from the proper prop than needing the hotter tune.

Except people say parts do differ—intake components and for sure exhaust diameter.

400-440 was a tune only. 400-460 (450) isn’t the same parts list. As told by many. What exact/specific parts...well that’s the unknown.


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[MJHSupra]

Except people say parts do differ—intake components and for sure exhaust diameter.

400-440 was a tune only. 400-460 (450) isn’t the same parts list. As told by many. What exact/specific parts...well that’s the unknown.


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I need to remember to ask some SC or Indmar people next time I’m around them.


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[schwan]

My opinionhttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200926/1d760ee880c7451386adf8b184fb9f93.jpg

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[larry_arizona]

My opinionhttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200926/1d760ee880c7451386adf8b184fb9f93.jpg

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Being a gear head, when I started shopping raptor powered wakeboats, the first thing I did was reach out to local Ford tuners.

1) They had zero interest trying to jailbreak the Indmar ECM, just not enough volume to invest the time.

2) Is the juice really worth the squeeze? At the time it was between the 400 and 440. 23ft lbs just wasn’t worth the effort.

Even if the 450 is still just maximizing the tune for 93 octane and cranking up timing to take advantage of higher octane. Is it worth $8000?

I would say yes if your elevation limited your boats ability to do what you asked of it.

I think the 450 and 580 options are effectively elevation tax.

SC did the customer a solid by switching to the 1.76, just extends the 400’s potential farther.

Trust me, I had full intentions of modifying the 400, ported heads, cams,intake etc. but honestly it really just makes power at higher RPM’s. Need to keep in mind these engines are set up to tow at 3000-4000 rpm.

Don’t really need a high horsepower at 6500 rpm engine.

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[z28ke]

I agree with Larry, wish I had the newer ratio trans with my 400 but the 1.5 is getting it done with the new prop.

The only engine mod I would consider is gutting the cats and using sims for the post-cat O2’s, but only if I ran into the catalytic converter issues that some of the earlier indmar raptor engines developed.

[Isaguel]

I don't believe the 1:1.76 tranny is unique to SC. Obviously the raptor 4o0-440 isn't. It would be easier to swap the tranny than to do any mods to the engine, given the ECU restrictions. You should be able to order a new tranny from your dealer, I would think. Just say it failed and you don't want warranty coverage, You're a conscientious objector to the warranty principles!. Since the engine, crankshaft and couplers are all the same, presumably(maybe the couplers are not), it should be a straight forward swap, shouldn't it? Should not have to mess with the ECU, right? It'll be a couple of grand and elbow grease to replace it, but if you're mechanically skilled, anything is doable. Maybe there are issues with the drive shaft for prop lining up though, hmm.

[larry_arizona]

SC was the last to switch to the 1.76, but it was a nice performance upgrade.


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[MLA]

I don't believe the 1:1.76 tranny is unique to SC. Obviously the raptor 4o0-440 isn't. It would be easier to swap the tranny than to do any mods to the engine, given the ECU restrictions. You should be able to order a new tranny from your dealer, I would think. Just say it failed and you don't want warranty coverage, You're a conscientious objector to the warranty principles!. Since the engine, crankshaft and couplers are all the same, presumably(maybe the couplers are not), it should be a straight forward swap, shouldn't it? Should not have to mess with the ECU, right? It'll be a couple of grand and elbow grease to replace it, but if you're mechanically skilled, anything is doable. Maybe there are issues with the drive shaft for prop lining up though, hmm.

The ratio change is actually in the v-drive portion, so it may be even easier. May just be able to swap gears in the v-drive portion of the drive-train.

[dakota4ce]

Couple grand is probably 5 grand. Knowing the cost of this stuff.


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[MJHSupra]

Couple grand is probably 5 grand. Knowing the cost of this stuff.


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Very true. Couple grand are clamping upper board racks. I'm betting north of 5K.

[larry_arizona]

I searched online for Indmar or ZF v drives and don’t see any for sale, must be a dealer only order.

But I am guessing $3500-$5000 for the 1.76 v drive.


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[rdlangston13]

I searched online for Indmar or ZF v drives and don’t see any for sale, must be a dealer only order.

But I am guessing $3500-$5000 for the 1.76 v drive.


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what about just the cost of the gears? assuming the unit itself is the same

[Isaguel]

what about just the cost of the gears? assuming the unit itself is the same

The gears will be different sizes so I suspect the transmission block that houses the gears will have different size or shape. But, if the gears can just be swapped, that would be game changer. It would be a worthwhile upgrade for anyone with tranny pre-year 2000. My Supra with the 1.176 gear is considerably more capable than my Mojo with the same engine. I thought lndmar had made some tweaks, upgrades or tuning to the 400. But if this is all tranny, it is so worth the money.

[MJHSupra]

The gears will be different sizes so I suspect the transmission block that houses the gears will have different size or shape. But, if the gears can just be swapped, that would be game changer. It would be a worthwhile upgrade for anyone with tranny pre-year 2000. My Supra with the 1.176 gear is considerably more capable than my Mojo with the same engine. I thought lndmar had made some tweaks, upgrades or tuning to the 400. But if this is all tranny, it is so worth the money.

That is what I recall reading about too when someone wrote about the transmission being a 'new unit' vs internal gears. Cannot firm that.

[UNSTUCK]

I went the rounds a couple of years ago with Indmar discussing the difference between the 400 and 440. Internally the motors are identical from 400 to 575. 400 and 440 are exactly the same externally as well. Indmar takes a bone stock 6.2 Ford truck motor and swaps out the oil pan and pump for a lower profile unit on all the motors. That is the only difference from the trucks. No cam changes or any internals on any motor. I need to go back through my emails again, but I believe the 460 has a larger throttle body and exhaust manifolds than 400 and 440. The 450 was not a thing at the time of this conversation.

After back to back 6000 pound ballast tests with a 400 Max and 450 Max two weeks ago, I can tell you there is no seat of the pants difference in the performance and I would not spending any money turning a 400 into a 450 or spending the upgrade money when buying a new Max. If you have the 1.5 ration transmission, this is where I would focus any modifications. In that case I would swap out the 1.5 and go straight to a 2:1 with a 1.25 shaft, support, and prop. That would be a real game changer and cost way less than the 450 upgrade on a new boat.

[MJHSupra]

I went the rounds a couple of years ago with Indmar discussing the difference between the 400 and 440. Internally the motors are identical from 400 to 575. 400 and 440 are exactly the same externally as well. Indmar takes a bone stock 6.2 Ford truck motor and swaps out the oil pan and pump for a lower profile unit on all the motors. That is the only difference from the trucks. No cam changes or any internals on any motor. I need to go back through my emails again, but I believe the 460 has a larger throttle body and exhaust manifolds than 400 and 440. The 450 was not a thing at the time of this conversation.

After back to back 6000 pound ballast tests with a 400 Max and 450 Max two weeks ago, I can tell you there is no seat of the pants difference in the performance and I would not spending any money turning a 400 into a 450 or spending the upgrade money when buying a new Max. If you have the 1.5 ration transmission, this is where I would focus any modifications. In that case I would swap out the 1.5 and go straight to a 2:1 with a 1.25 shaft, support, and prop. That would be a real game changer and cost way less than the 450 upgrade on a new boat.

2:1? Are you saying they should offer that? I think that opens another can-of-worms on the mounting and angles.

The current offering is 450 with the 1.76 trans.

[dakota4ce]

450 is important/difference maker in heavy wakeboarding. Something that you prob didn’t test I assume.


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[larry_arizona]

I accidentally ran my Supra SA 400 full ballast wakeboarding 23mph. It took a few to get on plane but it pulled it fine once on plane.

That was with small crew and 500# lead and 1.5 transmission.

I suspect the SA400 with 1.76 would get on plane better.


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[UNSTUCK]

450 is important/difference maker in heavy wakeboarding. Something that you prob didn’t test I assume.

Wakeboarding? Never heard of it. :D

The 400 we tested actually got to 12.0mph better than the 450 did. This was with less weight in the bow too. I am assuming the same prop. Based on the performance to 12mph with 6000 pounds ballast, I have no doubt any wakeboarder considering a Moomba Max 400 of all boats will be very pleased with the performance when wakeboarding to their idea of "heavy".

[dakota4ce]

Wakeboarding? Never heard of it. :D

The 400 we tested actually got to 12.0mph better than the 450 did. This was with less weight in the bow too. I am assuming the same prop. Based on the performance to 12mph with 6000 pounds ballast, I have no doubt any wakeboarder considering a Moomba Max 400 of all boats will be very pleased with the performance when wakeboarding to their idea of "heavy".

Ok. Well that actually makes no sense whatsoever that the 400 was stronger than the 450 in a test. “I assume the same prop” may need closer inspection?


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[dakota4ce]

And commenting that you haven’t heard of wakeboarding diminishes your credibility greatly....[emoji847][emoji6]

The 450 is a stronger motor....that’s not really up for debate. However, the debate really centers on if someone wants it or needs it. Right?


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[dakota4ce]

Finally—less weight in the bow? So the setup wasn’t the same?

Just trying to make sense of the seat of the pants science.


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[dakota4ce]

I accidentally ran my Supra SA 400 full ballast wakeboarding 23mph. It took a few to get on plane but it pulled it fine once on plane.

That was with small crew and 500# lead and 1.5 transmission.

I suspect the SA400 with 1.76 would get on plane better.


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They all will run fine once on a plane, but being that wakeboarder getting dragged along at 11 mph is pretty brutal.


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[sandm]

so to clarify:

-the 400/440/450/460 are LIKELY all separated by a combination of throttle body, exhaust manifolds and tune. no internal hard parts change. this makes complete sense from my old car days and sounds like unstuck has done the legwork to confirm.
-it's not an accurate comparison, either with instrumentation OR seat of the pants, to compare the engines if not in same boats, same vdrives, same ballast, same lake and same weather conditions. too many variables to be able to say one is better than the other.
-50hp/50tq in ANY engine is going to be noticeable if compared apples to apples- but see point above.

no one is talking props here. a 400/prop X can out perform a 460/prop Y so knowing what your end game is can make a lot of difference as to whether or not the upgrade is worth it or ensuring you have the right prop.
I'm with unstuck in that with most scenarios especially at lower elevations the 400 and the right prop makes more sense than spending the upgrade coin in 2020+. going back to the old 1.5's the engine upgrade MIGHT make more sense as isaguel's perceptions point out.

[dakota4ce]

Agreed. The 450 is a stronger motor. Depends on what you value when it comes to deciding what to buy.

If I have 4000 in ballast and a few dudes and we are using that 450 to yank a 200# wakeboarder out of the water and up to 20mph quickly. It’s mostly a luxury to have the 450. Not a necessity.

There is no apples to apples situation where a 400 out performs a 450. That’s not debatable.

400 will suffice for the vast majority of folks—maybe for everyone. But the 450 is badass!


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[sandm]

nah. the 575 is badass. the 450 is just a tuned 400 :)

[Hayden]

My dealer told me that he hasn't sold a single 575. I don't know if he meant "ever" but he did make a point of commenting on it when we were discussing the motor options on the Makai. Do we have anyone active on the forum who has a 575?

[dakota4ce]

nah. the 575 is badass. the 450 is just a tuned 400 :)

[emoji52]


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[UNSTUCK]

Ok. Well that actually makes no sense whatsoever that the 400 was stronger than the 450 in a test. “I assume the same prop” may need closer inspection?

They both had what Moomba wants to call the "high altitude prop". Unless they changed it between 2019 and 2020 who knows.


The 450 is a stronger motor....that’s not really up for debate. However, the debate really centers on if someone wants it or needs it. Right?

There's no debate that on paper the 450 makes more power after a certain RPM. I haven't seen any independent dyno test reports to confirm that's the case in real life though. Keep in mind that engine power is not linear. As I recall from the charts I've seen, at least with the 400 vs 440 they make the same power in the usable RPM range. Once you started getting outside the desired RPM range, the 440 pulled ahead in power. My seat of the pants test failed to confirm that the 450 has more power and showed me it is not needed. Someone may still want it though.


Finally—less weight in the bow? So the setup wasn’t the same?
Just trying to make sense of the seat of the pants science.

It wasn't the same, but it was in favor of the 450. As you know, a heavy boat will benefit from having more bow weight when trying to get to speed. The 450 had a 700 pound bag in the bow. We topped out at about 11.2mph. We then added a "240" pound person sitting on the forward gunwale of the bow. This was required to get the boat to 12mph.
The 400 had a 1000 pound bag mostly full in the bow walkway with no one at all in the bow. This moved the weight a bit more rearward which should have made it a bit more difficult to get to speed. There was no issue getting to 12mph on the first try.

The seat of the pants science is the only thing we can go off of. Indmar can state anything they want in their advertising as far as power goes, or anything for that matter. Who is going to contest it? I'm not saying that's what they do, just that they can. No one is going to engine dyno their set up and see for sure what power it's putting out. Testing the same model boat with different power ratings is the only thing we can do to really see if they are different. This is what I did and what I reported on. I came to my own conclusion that the 450 in a Max is a wasted set up. You know of my struggles with low power at elevation and the things I've either done or wanted to do to correct it. So you know how important it is to me to verify a boat is powerful enough for me. I went from thinking a 450 Max was our next boat to being perfectly happy with the 400. Then mamma shot the Max down all together and we bought another Tige.

[dakota4ce]

They both had what Moomba wants to call the "high altitude prop". Unless they changed it between 2019 and 2020 who knows.



There's no debate that on paper the 450 makes more power after a certain RPM. I haven't seen any independent dyno test reports to confirm that's the case in real life though. Keep in mind that engine power is not linear. As I recall from the charts I've seen, at least with the 400 vs 440 they make the same power in the usable RPM range. Once you started getting outside the desired RPM range, the 440 pulled ahead in power. My seat of the pants test failed to confirm that the 450 has more power and showed me it is not needed. Someone may still want it though.



It wasn't the same, but it was in favor of the 450. As you know, a heavy boat will benefit from having more bow weight when trying to get to speed. The 450 had a 700 pound bag in the bow. We topped out at about 11.2mph. We then added a "240" pound person sitting on the forward gunwale of the bow. This was required to get the boat to 12mph.
The 400 had a 1000 pound bag mostly full in the bow walkway with no one at all in the bow. This moved the weight a bit more rearward which should have made it a bit more difficult to get to speed. There was no issue getting to 12mph on the first try.

The seat of the pants science is the only thing we can go off of. Indmar can state anything they want in their advertising as far as power goes, or anything for that matter. Who is going to contest it? I'm not saying that's what they do, just that they can. No one is going to engine dyno their set up and see for sure what power it's putting out. Testing the same model boat with different power ratings is the only thing we can do to really see if they are different. This is what I did and what I reported on. I came to my own conclusion that the 450 in a Max is a wasted set up. You know of my struggles with low power at elevation and the things I've either done or wanted to do to correct it. So you know how important it is to me to verify a boat is powerful enough for me. I went from thinking a 450 Max was our next boat to being perfectly happy with the 400. Then mamma shot the Max down all together and we bought another Tige.

Indeed I am familiar with your ways.

So the boats weren’t even the same year? That then invites transmission ratio into the party.

Anyway, I really don’t care. Your tests aren’t much good for the general public to consume, and they ultimately ended up not mattering to you anyway.

Any sound/logical test putting a 450 vs a 400 would always show a 450 being the stronger result. Yours actually showed the opposite.

Unless Indmar is possibly lying as you seem to be hinting at?

Enjoy your Tige!


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[dakota4ce]

2 different year boats, 2 unknown props, 2 different transmission ratios, very possibly two totally different ballast setups (3200 vs 4000 vs who knows), and two different above seat bow ballast setups, and possible false manufacturer information.

One clear winner.

Got it.




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[Prospersigman]

Do we have anyone active on the forum who has a 575?

We have several people on the forum with the 575...I happen to be one although I wouldn't have purchased it if I hadn't gotten a stupid good deal on it.

[larry_arizona]

A supercharger absolutely makes sense for high elevations. But highly overkill for flatlanders.

That said, if money was no object, I would get the 575 because I could.

But I do think it hurts resale unless you are in the mountains. It just adds to the sticker shock and narrows your buying audience.


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[TXSurf4]

My dealer told me that he hasn't sold a single 575. I don't know if he meant "ever" but he did make a point of commenting on it when we were discussing the motor options on the Makai. Do we have anyone active on the forum who has a 575?

My dealer does not spec their "stock" SEs with anything less than a 575 and they sell them all. Now if you get your own build slot with them I assume you can get it with the 450 which is what I would do. Not really sure why they spec the 575 as elevation is not a concern for us but that is what they do.

[larry_arizona]

My dealer does not spec their "stock" SEs with anything less than a 575 and they sell them all. Now if you get your own build slot with them I assume you can get it with the 450 which is what I would do. Not really sure why they spec the 575 as elevation is not a concern for us but that is what they do.

Because everything is bigger in Texas!!!!


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[dakota4ce]

575s are so damned awesome. I would take one in SL or SE every time.


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[TXSurf4]

Because everything is bigger in Texas!!!!


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HAHAHA!! Facts!!


575s are so damned awesome. I would take one in SL or SE every time.


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How did you feel with the 450 in your SL?

[dakota4ce]

HAHAHA!! Facts!!



How did you feel with the 450 in your SL?

It was fine, adequate. But my buddies with a 550 is poetic.


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[UNSTUCK]

2 different year boats, 2 unknown props, 2 different transmission ratios, very possibly two totally different ballast setups (3200 vs 4000 vs who knows), and two different above seat bow ballast setups, and possible false manufacturer information.

One clear winner.

Got it.




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So the 2019 and 2020 have different transmission ratios? That changes everything and I'll concede. I thought they were both 1.7x. No doubt the 2020 is a 1.7 which would confirm the transmission being more important than motor in this boat. I was able to make a 400 with a 1.7 trans perform as good or better than a 450 with a 1.5 transmission. The differences in the ballast placement should have only favored the 450. That didn't matter.

[larry_arizona]

Skiers choice changed from 1.5 to 1.76 mid year 2019 on the 450’s only.

2020 the 400 and 450’s got the 1.76.

The 550 stayed 1.5 as it doesn’t need the ratio.


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[dakota4ce]

So the 2019 and 2020 have different transmission ratios? That changes everything and I'll concede. I thought they were both 1.7x. No doubt the 2020 is a 1.7 which would confirm the transmission being more important than motor in this boat. I was able to make a 400 with a 1.7 trans perform as good or better than a 450 with a 1.5 transmission. The differences in the ballast placement should have only favored the 450. That didn't matter.

Also, there were 2 ballast configurations in available in those boats—3200 or 4000. You would need to know what you had in this case also.

There’s no doubt the trans is vital, and that a 400 with the new trans is a good setup. But if all else is equal, the 450 would do better.


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[TXSurf4]

Skiers choice changed from 1.5 to 1.76 mid year 2019 on the 450’s only.

2020 the 400 and 450’s got the 1.76.

The 550 stayed 1.5 as it doesn’t need the ratio.


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I believe the mid year on the 450s was only on the Supra side of things. I believe MY 2019 Moombas with the 450 all had the 1.76. My spray date was in Feb of 2019 and my 450 has the 1.76 and I know Dakota4ce's 450 had the 1.76 as well and his was built in 2018. TBH for me one of the big deciding factors in going with the 450 in my 2019 was getting the 1.76 transmission. To me that was worth the $ alone the extra HP and Torque was just lagniappe.

[TXSurf4]

So the 2019 and 2020 have different transmission ratios?

Depends on which year had which motor.

In the 2019 Moombas the 400 had the 1.5 and the 450 had the 1.76

In 2020 as Larry stated both the 400 and 450 got the 1.76

[dakota4ce]

I believe the mid year on the 450s was only on the Supra side of things. I believe MY 2019 Moombas with the 450 all had the 1.76. My spray date was in Feb of 2019 and my 450 has the 1.76 and I know Dakota4ce's 450 had the 1.76 as well and his was built in 2018. TBH for me one of the big deciding factors in going with the 450 in my 2019 was getting the 1.76 transmission. To me that was worth the $ alone the extra HP and Torque was just lagniappe.

Except: that was Makai ONLY.


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[dakota4ce]

As I recall, the Makai was rolled out by itself as a 450/1.76 combo, whereas other models, both Supra and Moomba, were phased in as referenced earlier regardless of 450 motor.

In other words, a 2019 Max with a 450 could be a 1.5 or a 1.76 depending when it was built.

Clear as MUD.


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[TXSurf4]

As I recall, the Makai was rolled out by itself as a 450/1.76 combo, whereas other models, both Supra and Moomba, were phased in as referenced earlier regardless of 450 motor.

In other words, a 2019 Max with a 450 could be a 1.5 or a 1.76 depending when it was built.

Clear as MUD.


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That is good to know I thought it was straight across the board for Moomba but I guess that is because I was only looking at the Makai.

[dakota4ce]

One caveat would be that I could be wrong, but that was my understanding.


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[Prospersigman]

As I recall, the Makai was rolled out by itself as a 450/1.76 combo, whereas other models, both Supra and Moomba, were phased in as referenced earlier regardless of 450 motor.

In other words, a 2019 Max with a 450 could be a 1.5 or a 1.76 depending when it was built.

Clear as MUD.


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This is how I recall it as well...only Makai with 450 had the 1.76 tranny.

[Prospersigman]

It was fine, adequate. But my buddies with a 550 is poetic.


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Is it overkill in TX probably...is it overkill when I have 10-12 people on board, 100% ballast and 850lbs in lead and I want to jump on plane to head to party cove without draining ballast to get on plane...no.

Plus that whine of the blower is f'ing awesome sounding!!

[2in2out]

Had our SA450 not been available, we were going to buy a SA550. Had one with similar hours and decent price in sites. We didn't need it, and the color scheme wasn't the best, but my wife thought the value would hold better. Plus, when we move to Texas, my wife wanted her cousin to piss himself when he witnessed the power. He'll still wet himself with the 450.