Max vs Craz: Surf Wave Only

[UNSTUCK]

Looking hard at a new max or craz. All I care about is the surf wave. There are no boats around to demo. Dealer even tried asking recent buyers to give us a pull. We’d like to place an order but don’t know which way to go. We plan on likely going ballast crazy and probably will modify the surf system as needed like we have done on past boats we’ve owned. I’d call us wave snobs. My daughters can really tell the difference between a good wave and a poor one.
So for the cost of the two boats is there any reason to pick the craz over the max? Will adding extra ballast or maybe GSA style tabs or anything else ever make the wave better in the craz? Does adding those items to a max make it even better?

Anyone in the Salt Lake area want to get a bunch of gas money for a pull in either boat?

Thanks.

[jimmsch]

2020Max vs 2020 Craz...stock vs stock, Max wins for surf wave. 2021 Max comes standard with 4000lbs ballast. Should make an even bigger difference.

[larry_arizona]

Max has more surf potential. You can also order it without a surf system. Although not sure what the GSA will give you over the factory flow 2.

Also at your elevation, get the 450.

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[UNSTUCK]

I asked the dealer about the 450. He said they are still running the 400 here with success. I guess no one gets the 450. That seems odd to me. Coming from a tige rzx3 the 440 with 2:1 was barely enough. This is why I need to demo it.

[UNSTUCK]

I ran GSA tabs on my tige and was really impressed with the improvement of the wave. I would still use flow 2 to control the tabs. I like to play around and test things to get the most out of the boats we’ve owned.

[parrothd]

I believe the new Craz has the newest flow 3.0 where the max only has the flow 2.0, the 3.0 adds a extra acucuator to improve the wave face. Max will have more space but craz is going to have the better wave system. You don't need to change the flow system just add lead, get autowake and the 6 pumps.

[996scott]

Parrothd is correct, the Craz does come standard with the 2.0 but you can add 3.0 I don't believe 3.0 is even an option on the Max (doesn't make any sense at all to me). I can't comment on how much better the 3.0 is over the 2.0 but from what i have read the 2.0 can still give you a great wave with the right setup (weight).

I'm in Salt Lake and the dealer told me the same thing about the 400. He said it is plenty good with the new 1.76 transmission and the altitude/surf prop. I'd offer you a demo in my 2021 Craz but i'm still waiting on delivery. Give me a few weeks and i hope to have it.

[parrothd]

Parrothd is correct, the Craz does come standard with the 2.0 but you can add 3.0 I don't believe 3.0 is even an option on the Max (doesn't make any sense at all to me). I can't comment on how much better the 3.0 is over the 2.0 but from what i have read the 2.0 can still give you a great wave with the right setup (weight).

I'm in Salt Lake and the dealer told me the same thing about the 400. He said it is plenty good with the new 1.76 transmission and the altitude/surf prop. I'd offer you a demo in my 2021 Craz but i'm still waiting on delivery. Give me a few weeks and i hope to have it.
I see your coming from an older LSV welcome to the Craz club, upgrage those bags and 500lb lead!

[Bmac]

I have a 2020 Max in Idaho Falls. If you come my way I will give you a pull. I have the 400 and it does fine but I wish I had the 450. More torque is always better right? I run 5,500 lbs of weight plus crew and if I have a large crew I have to put a bunch of weight in the nose to get to speed. Not a huge deal but it’s frustrating to see your boat struggle even when it’s only with large crews. I went with the Max over the craz due to the ability to add more weight and still have a lot of space for storage. My $.02


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[Isaguel]

Not have owned either, but I owned a Mojo which has a hull design close to the Craz. In my mind, the Craz is a better crossover boat, for those who still may want to ski, whereas the Max is more geared towards surf. Either boat is great otherwise.
I agree with Larry, you're at >4k feet elevation. Looks like you are committed to spending some extra cash if you're considering the 4500$ GSA. I'd say, save the GSA money, the flow 2.0 is plenty good, and put that money towards the 450 engine. You can always upgrade the surf tabs but you can't upgrade the engine, at least not easily.
Your dealer says OK with the 400, and that is fine for the average buyer who plans on surfing stock and never takes the time to understand or maximize these boats. It sounds like you will plan to add ballast, prolly extra 1k lbs, or more, the 400 engine might be ok stock at that elevation, but you may find it struggles with the extra weight.

[996scott]

haha, yep. Already have 10 bags of lead sitting in the garage, as well as the engine divider reinforcements. Enzos are going to be ordered this week! Getting pretty excited.

[parrothd]

Dont forget the bow sac.. ������

[996scott]

The bow sac comes standard :)

[UNSTUCK]

I'm in Salt Lake and the dealer told me the same thing about the 400. He said it is plenty good with the new 1.76 transmission and the altitude/surf prop. I'd offer you a demo in my 2021 Craz but i'm still waiting on delivery. Give me a few weeks and i hope to have it.

Scott, thanks for the offer. I’m mostly interested in the craz because I was told it produces a much better wave on the goofy side. All three of our old boats made better waves on the regular side. My whole family surfs goofy. And on the goofy side! I’d love to know if that is really the case. Otherwise we like the Max’s size better.

Anyone know the wave difference on the max? Better on the regular or goofy side?

[Bmac]

I have to list the boat further on the goofy side to get a perfectly clean wave. I can get up to speed better surfing goofy than regular. The only time my boat struggles getting to speed with the 400 is when I have a regular side surfer. I feel like I can get the wave just as good if not a little taller on goofy side. I wouldn’t let that deter you from getting a Max. The only thing I don’t know about is the flow 2.0 vs 3.0. To me it sounds like the biggest thing 3.0 does is make it so you don’t have list it as far on the goofy side to get that clean wave, which in turn makes it easier to do transfers.


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[UNSTUCK]

Anyone know the ideal pitch and roll numbers for the goofy wave on the max? If I had I guess I would say 4-5* roll and 9-10 bow high. I assume center plate at 0 or close to it. What about the surf tab number? Thanks.

[pat6969]

Max goofy wave is stellar!!

28987

[Bmac]

Your surf tab might be a preference for you. I run mine anywhere from 65-95 depending on how much the rider weighs. At 65 the wave is at its highest with the most push but is steep. At 95 my wife who is 90lbs can ride way back and really enjoys how much mellower the wave is. We mostly ride skim so we try to make the wave a little flatter with the wave as long as possible to recover. And yes I try not to use the wake plate when surfing unless I get lazy and don’t want to move lead when the crew moves. I keep 150-200 lbs of lead under and around the back seat and move it from side to side to get the list I want.


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[DNIXD99]

The wave being better on the goofy side has to do with prop rotation. It has nothing to do with the Craz. Youll experience the same on the Max or Craz.

[UNSTUCK]

In my experience it’s the prop rotation that has made the regular side wave far superior to the goofy side. So if the max or craz is better in the regular side that says something about the hull or surf systems because all the props are spinning the same way.

[UNSTUCK]

In my experience it’s the prop rotation that has made the regular side wave far superior to the goofy side. So if the max or craz is better in the regular side that says something about the hull or surf systems because all the props are spinning the same way.

[haknslash]

On my Max the regular side is a little longer and wave shape a bit more rounded on the top than my goofy side. The goofy side for me tends to be steeper wall and have more of a waterfall curl in the back of the wave. This was with AutoWake turned on so no telling what the surf plates were for each side but these were default AutoWake settings -3 degrees roll regular and IIRC -5 degrees roll for goofy. Regardless of AW settings or manual the wave shapes I mentioned and characteristics are about the same.


https://youtu.be/da56Rym4jUQ

[UNSTUCK]

We finally got to test a Max last night. It was a good experience. The owner was great guy who answered all our questions and really let us experiment with the wave. The boat had the stock 3000 pounds, 1000 in lead and a 650 bag on the seat in the bow. Surfing just like that I felt the wave was good enough given a bit of boat chop on the water. We then filled a 1000 pound bag I brought with us. It was as far forward on the cabin floor as we could get it. This was the real test. I jumped in the water. The wave really didn't look much different, but it was rock solid. I really liked it. I'm used to surfing fast. We set the cruise for 12.0. It couldn't get there. It was stuck at 11.2. I got in the boat and my daughter got in the water. The owner moved up to the front of the bow while I drove standing in the bow walk way. It got right up to 12.0. My daughter back there was basically giddy. She loved it.
We were boating at 5500 ft elevation and this boat had the 450 motor, but I don't know what prop. On our way in, running empty, I think I saw 39mph on the screen. Fastest I've ever gone in a tow boat. So I would call this a successful test.

We have another test with a 400 boat tonight. This lake is at 5000 ft. We will bring two 1000 bags with us to try to replicate what we did last night. Supposedly this boat has the 4000 ballast system. If we can even get close to 12 mph tonight we will get a boat with the 400 motor, if not, we will get the 450.

Stay tunned.

[rockymtnsurfer]

high altitude prop?

[UNSTUCK]

We had another great test last night. This was a boat the dealer uses as a demo. It's a rental boat at Pineview. It was in pretty rough shape, but allowed us to run our test. I'm 99% positive it was the 4000 pound ballast boat. We lifted up the side seats and saw the shallow floor. It was floating a bit which led me to believe there was a full bag under it. The boat did not have the bow filler cushion so we filled a 1000 pound bag in the bow walk way. Not fully full as it was cramped in the walkway. I'd say probably around 800 pound though. We filled a second 1000 bag full right behind it, next to the driver seat. I set the cruise at 12.0 and took off. It had no issue at all getting to 12.0. I was really surprised. The weight was further back in the bow than the night before so I thought it would struggle because of that, not just the weaker motor.
I do not know what props were on these boats, but I would guess the standard "high altitude" prop. I'm now kicking myself for not looking at the RPMs on these boats during the tests. RPMs on my past boats have always been a priority to watch and I didn't even think of it these times. I will say the engine noise sounded very similar between the two. It was so loud that I had to almost shout at people sitting next to me. The engines didn't sound screaming fast, just loud. I found it odd that the 2019 (the 450 boat) had most of the noise coming from the cup/storage area right behind the driver seat. Led me to wonder how/if these boats are sound insulated at all. The 450 had a FAE installed and the 400 did not. The 400 was just as loud, but for the first time in a long time I noticed exhaust smell while surfing. So the FAE is worth the purchase for smell, not noise reduction.

Bottom line takeaways: If we decide to build a Max, we will not option the 450 motor as the 400 works just fine at 5000' with close to 6000 in water weight and with 1000 in people weight. We will add the FAE. I would option the new larger 7" screen. The older smaller one is stupid (I'm coming from the BIG Tige screen). Looks like autowake is standard now. I would have done without it. I look forward to getting the quote on a boat we built on the website. Hopefully it works out.

[Zog]

We have the 400 in a Mojo and have not seen it struggle at all. One word of morning on the surf pipe/FAE: If you enjoy waterskiing, the surf pipe will really make a mess of the wake. My brother in law has it on his Supra SE and it is very messy for water-skiers. We don't have it on our Mojo and it is a very clean wake.

[larry_arizona]

Personally would not own a boat without a Skier’s choice surf pipe


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[Shoebox]

My brother in law has it on his Supra SE and it is very messy for water-skiers. We don't have it on our Mojo and it is a very clean wake.Waterskiing behind an SE? [emoji23] And you blame it on the surf pipe. [emoji23]

[larry_arizona]

Waterskiing behind an SE? [emoji23] And you blame it on the surf pipe. [emoji23]

Was thinking same and how can you quantify that the surf pipes causes it exactly, unless they ski behind a SE without a surf pipe.

Sounds like “bro science”

[UNSTUCK]

My "bro science" tells me I will live a lot longer and have less surgeries if my boat stays at or under 12 mph. No skiing or wakeboarding for me.

[Zog]

Waterskiing behind an SE? [emoji23] And you blame it on the surf pipe. [emoji23]

Yeah, I get it! It's a bit of a monster for that (though I got it wrong, he has a SL not an SE), but we have a lot of ski die hards in the family. Before we bought the Mojo, we tried skiing behind his boat and found it to be a lousy experience, mostly due to the rooster tail from the surf pipe. We were used to big shoulders on the wake since we have mostly skied behind stern drive boats so we weren't bothered by the hills. The Mojo outperformed any stern drive we have ever had once we loaded it up with about 50% ballast up front.

[larry_arizona]

Rooster tail is not caused by surf pipe, it’s from the hull and prop.


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[Shoebox]

Rooster tail is not caused by surf pipe, it’s from the hull and prop.


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[UNSTUCK]

Anyone want to comment on the noise level of these motors in at least the Max? Maybe its the whole Moomba line? FAE didn't make a noticeable difference. They were both loud. It was a major put off and the first thing my wife said we'd have to address. She wasn't happy.

[parrothd]

Anyone want to comment on the noise level of these motors in at least the Max? Maybe its the whole Moomba line? FAE didn't make a noticeable difference. They were both loud. It was a major put off and the first thing my wife said we'd have to address. She wasn't happy.

You need to add some dynamat sound deadening to the front and sides of the engine compartment. It helps but no where near as quite as the pre raptor boats.

[dakota4ce]

You need to add some dynamat sound deadening to the front and sides of the engine compartment. It helps but no where near as quite as the pre raptor boats.

The transmission tunnel is a good place to Dynamat as well.


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[larry_arizona]

Plus dynamat adds ballast.

Maybe Supras are quieter, but I don’t find the Raptor loud at all.


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[SONIC]

Plus dynamat adds ballast.

Maybe Supras are quieter, but I don’t find the Raptor loud at all.


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I don't find the raptor itself loud but the vdrive screams like a banshee.
I used Noico (dynamat) to do the trans tunnel and it helped a bit.
I'm hoping they will update their specs to allow the use of gear oil instead of transmission fluid in the vdrive, that would quiet it down considerably.

[UNSTUCK]

We are comparing the noise to our old RZX3. We didn't find it loud at all. Talking to each other and to the surfer was easy. The radio did not need to be full blast to hear it. I thought about products like Dynamat or the knockoffs. They don't absorb noise as much as prevent vibration noise. The tige engine bay was lined with an actual insulation product of some sort. Should have looked to see what the Max had, if anything.

[parrothd]

My 06 lsv was super quite with an FAE, like you can whisper and actually have a conversation a surf speeds. The raptor motor is way louder.. �� Now you have to yell or and say what? Huh?

The raptor exhaust is next to the rear bench seat and facing towards the cabin area where you sit. Previous models the exhaust was facing back towards the rear.

[Bmac]

I agree that the Max is super loud. I frequently ride in an Axis and a Centurion and they are a lot quieter. It’s not even close. Interested to see what I can do to quiet the motor as well.


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[996scott]

We got our new Craz out this weekend to put some break-in hours on it and the noise was very noticeable. Kind of shocked me. I think most of it was coming from the v-drive/transmission, and not the exhaust. My guess is because on our old LSV you had the back seat over the v-drive opening and the seat was pretty heavy duty HDPE along with carpet so there was some good insulation there. Now there is just that fiberglass cover over the opening. I just ordered some Kilmat to see if that will help.

[parrothd]

The exhuast is located at the v-drive/trans, that's what you're hearing. :) The mat will help slightly, but it's really not worth the money or the time. I've got 2 layers of dynamat and dynamat foam and carpet on the walls and trans cover.

[UNSTUCK]

The location of the exhaust doesn't matter. It's in the same spot for all Raptor motors. Yet not all Raptor powered boats are loud. Also, to be clear, I heard engine noise. Not transmission whine. Likely there was transmission while mixed in, I just couldn't hear it over the engine. Is that a, "on the bright side"?

[htfit]

Check out z28ke's thread on murder max mods. I did the kilzmat on the floor, transmission hatch/cover and on the bottom of the plastic tray over the engine.

I noticed a big difference.

I think it was the kilzmat on the floor board and transmission hatch that made the biggest difference and not so much around the engine.

Of course having the surf pipe makes the biggest difference if you don't have that yet.

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[parrothd]

The location of the exhaust doesn't matter. It's in the same spot for all Raptor motors. Yet not all Raptor powered boats are loud. Also, to be clear, I heard engine noise. Not transmission whine. Likely there was transmission while mixed in, I just couldn't hear it over the engine. Is that a, "on the bright side"?

I think other manufacturers using raptor engines probably noticed the noise and added sound deadening to their hulls. Moomba are cheaper for a reason. :)