I need your help, my wave sucks....

[Branden967]

Hey Guys,
I need your help here, whats the secret sauce on producing a surf-able wave? I feel like I've run the gambit of weight, people, ballast etc and I just cant figure it out. I can produce what looks like a huge wave but then it doesn't have any push. We've never gone rope-less and its a personal goal for this summer. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Here is what Im running where I think I got the best results for a goofy side wave;
08 OBV
Rear Starboard and Port stock Ballast full.
Center ballast full.
Suck Gate about 2 feet from the back on opposite surf side.
Wake plate 25% from bow up.
Additional chubby people in bow, estimate plus 350 lbs.
Additional chubby people in rear of boat 300 lbs on rear bench seat.

The rear corner rub rails are pretty much in the water. Im not sure what to do next.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Am I way off?

Thanks!

2896228963

[SONIC]

How fast are you running? Looks fast.

[Stazi]

Wakeplate all the way up!


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[Branden967]

That speed was about 11.2 MPH, I tuned the speedo with a GPS so it should be pretty dead on.

[Hayden]

08 OBV is an Outback, yes? I can't remember 100% but I think that could be the same hull as my 2005 LSV. How much weight are you running in each quadrant of the boat? I agree with Stazi, you need to run wakeplate all the way up.

[2in2out]

Double up on suck gates. I did this with my 2017 Sanger, plus added 450# lead. I found 10.6-10.8 were keys at Tahoe elevation. Go down to Folsom, and could get away with one gate and 11.2 max. I had no surf plate and we used trim tabs to clean the wave and provide additional list.

With two suck gates, place one at 18-32" from stern just below waterline. Next one should be lower on the hull as close to the stern as possible. I live in Reno and would be happy to let you borrow my lead and work the set-up for a pull:cool:.

[sandm]

my .02 fwiw....

it lists you are using starboard/port "stock" ballast. you will need more weight if you're still running the factory bags. hayden lists 3000lbs of ballast and that's what you need for that boat. our old 20ssv was similar hull and we ran similar weight to hayden.

personally, I'd start with a listed wave and get it down then move to a suck gate and both sides filled once you know what the wave is your are looking for. remove some of the variables of both sides and suckgate until you have it dialed.

[bsharer]

Stock rear ballast is what 400#?

Id say put a 750# bag rear starboard locker. Center ballast full. Wake plate all the way up. Try it with the port locker bag partially filled or full if using suck gate. Suck gate as far back as you can get it, just below the water line when running, and face of gate perpendicular to the water line when running.

The 400# bag you take out you can put on the floor starboard side, fill it up with a throw over pump. Or under the starboard seat, and piggy back of the rear bag. It wont fill up all the way but youd prob get 200+ in it.

And use your GPS app when surfing! Ive found the speedometer isn't accurate enough even though you adjusted it. One of the best tips on an older boat when setting up the surf wave, IMO.

[Hayden]

I've attached a diagram of how we run our ballast. Sometimes it's just surfer/driver, where we would add an extra bag but normally it's surfer/driver/spotter. The 2x750#, 1x400# and 1x400# IBS are all subfloor/cushion ballast. The 4x250# are all sacks just laid on the seats in the cabin. It's not in my sig but we run a suck gate as well, vertical spine mounted directly above the "L" of LSV lettering. We are regular (not goofy) riders so adjust as required.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Iv0TXUHKiyXOjcdfGz0WMAC_jM3OX-S5/view?usp=sharing

[Hayden]

Also, you may or may not know this but at that elevation and +2800#, you will need an upgraded prop. Do you know what you have now? I'm at 3200 ft elevation and we would not be able to surf at that weight without our prop upgrade.

A final point of advice I would give; if this is your first time adding that much weight, because our hull has so little freeboard, you need your drivers to know/learn how to do the power-skid-turn when they pickup their riders. I still have intermediate drivers that struggle with it. I found a video on it when I first started looking into heavy weight but can't find it now. When the surfer falls out of the wave and you need to do pickup, it breaks down into 3 steps:

1.) Cut throttle to 1/3 (2seconds to do this). Lets the boat settle somewhat.
2.) Start a hard turn to starboard (1-2seconds to do this) If goofy riders you would go port.
3.) Cut throttle completely and wait 8-10seconds for stern of boat to "skid" around 180 degrees.

We've found that not doing this, especially on busy lake, but even when we're solo, will eventually get you water over the bow because you're so heavy loaded and have next to no freeboard. By doing it, you keep the boat almost perfectly inline with the wake you've been creating behind you upto that point and won't get any random waves coming across the bow from doing a circular pickup.

[Branden967]

Hello Hayden, Could you PM that thumb pic to me, it loaded super small and I cant read it?

Holy crap.....3000 pounds! I get adding additional weight and I think I tried to accomplish that with the human element but guess I wasn't close. I didn't go big enough. Its hard for me to imagine more weight when the my rub rail are at the waterline. Just concerned about sinking....lol.

[Branden967]

Also, you may or may not know this but at that elevation and +2800#, you will need an upgraded prop. Do you know what you have now? I'm at 3200 ft elevation and we would not be able to surf at that weight without our prop upgrade.

A final point of advice I would give; if this is your first time adding that much weight, because our hull has so little freeboard, you need your drivers to know/learn how to do the power-skid-turn when they pickup their riders. I still have intermediate drivers that struggle with it. I found a video on it when I first started looking into heavy weight but can't find it now. When the surfer falls out of the wave and you need to do pickup, it breaks down into 3 steps:

1.) Cut throttle to 1/3 (2seconds to do this). Lets the boat settle somewhat.
2.) Start a hard turn to startboard (1-2seconds to do this) If goofy riders you would go port.
3.) Cut throttle completely and wait 8-10seconds for stern of boat to "skid" around 180 degrees.

We've found that not doing this, especially on busy lake, but even when we're solo, will eventually get you water over the bow because you're so heavy loaded and have next to no freeboard. By doing it, you keep the boat almost perfectly inline with the wake you've been creating behind you upto that point and won't get any random waves coming across the bow from doing a circular pickup.

Great advise on the turn and pick up. Right now with the little weight Im apparently running, I can easily get water flooding in the bow. The wife figured out that one the hard way....
I did switch out my props, Im running the ACME 1617.

[mikenehrkorn]

I would say more ballast as well......I'm running 900# in each rear locker, stock mid/front (400#) and IBS in the bow that probably fills to 450# in my 2013 OBV with a suck gate as well.

[z28ke]

I bought a ‘08 OBV new in 2008 and owned it until 2018 when I bought my Max so I’m full of advice lol! Along with the suckgate and wakeplate at zero you need:

750’s in each rear locker
400lb sac on the surf side rear seat
300+lbs in the bow (in addition to the ski locker bag)
Speed 10-11

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200825/237ba1cc33298fec388435e5bf37c117.jpg

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200825/882dbd15c79b8778acbb55084f3ced6a.jpg

[Isaguel]

I guess I'll ad my 2 cents also.
Your post suggests you're running equal weight both sides and using the suck gate to create the surf wave. That's all good but, as others have mentioned you need more weight. But, furthermore, you mentioned you're at the level of rubrails and that is close. When I look at your wave, it looks clean, pretty, but very flat, that's why u do not have push. You need it to be more rampy. From your post I gather you do not have surf tabs, so U are not creating list. The more list, the rampier the wave in my experience, and you'll get more push. The flatter you run the boat, the flatter the wave, is what I have seen. More modern boats produce rampy waves because the tabs produce list, delayed convergence and as I recently learned here from one of the threads, it also produces Yaw.
Bu's get away with using gates because they are heavy and displace a lot more water, they do produce a long clean wave, like yours, but more volume, so more push. Waves on the Bu are very nice, long, mellow with nice lip and transition. I do believe the Bu's surf system empties ballast to produce some list though.
Without the benefit of a surf tab, and with limitation on how much more weight U can safely add, You need to list that boat in addition to adding more weight, safely.

[z28ke]

Absolutely still need some list with the suckgate, here’s a pic showing how we had the 400lb’r on the bench:

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200826/f3f3cd52ca01b42f9a7f7b6001be0920.jpg

[2in2out]

I agree with everyone else that more displacement and more roll are needed. The double suck gate can give more ramp and push by forcing yaw, creating lower volume return on the surf side, deepening the pocket. By adjusting the placement of the suck gates, you can adjust the length and ramp of the wave.

[mpbanskie]

Hi,

Having been on a journey from this wave

http://youtu.be/qzuIMQCs9Q0

To this one
http://youtu.be/pWNtXqorvZM

With basically the same total weight in a 2015 Outback V what I can highlight is the importance of list.

In the first video I have two friends in the boat - both are heavier guys, in the second I have just my much lighter wife and son but the wave it 10 times better with less weight.

There are a few differences in weight placement but the one that has made the most difference and helped us achieve a repeatable foundation wave which we can tune for height vs length etc is list.

There are two quick and easy was you can test the effect of list on your wave without adding any lbs or USDs

1) Get your rider to cut out hard to the side on the rope and hold this position like a wakeboarder, this should list the boat a bit and you should see the wave get bigger and steeper

2) You can also get you surf side passengers to sit on the gunnels instead of the seats to see the effect of moving the same total weight a little bit further out - the effect should be the same but maybe not as instantly noticeable.

In the second video there are two set ups based on the same foundation of

650s in the rear lockers
400 ski locker
300 fatsac on bow seats
2 30-40lb bags of gravel that I move as far to the surf side as possible
Wife driving, son sitting on the surf side

This is our foundation wave, we can fine tune for length/height/clean face etc but as a fill up and go wave with barely any crew weight I am really happy with this, the push goes right back to the end of the rope.

Hope you get to try 1 or 2) and see the same results from adding list that we have

Duane

[Branden967]

Well I gave it a whirl with everyone's advice and weight is definitely the key. We typically run the boat with my wife and our three smaller kids so not normally a lot of weight. I brought some bigger guys and kept moving them around the boat as my test ballasts and the wave had more push and we were really close to going rope-less. Im at a tough crossroads, I know I need the weight but the wife wont let me go crazy as storage is premium also.

Is the next step lead, lots and lots of lead?

[Stazi]

Yes. Lead for maximum density. Most weight for least amount of space.


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[mpbanskie]

The alternative to more weight is a faster board.

You don't mention what board you have - I bought a job lot from a company that was closing down, some I can cruise on, some are so fast that I get cramp from staying on my back foot all the time, and some I would never be able to drop the rope on.

Generally, large flat skim style boards with sharp rails and minimal fins will be much faster than similar smaller board of surf style boards with more rocker and rounded edges.

In the first video I posted I am on a skim style board, in the second a surf style, the surf style would have been very hard work on the first wave it it would have even worked at all.

So what size and style of board are you using, how many and how large are the fins ?

From there, there are some small tweaks in foot position that make all the difference between 'almost there' and cruising all day.

If you have any video, post it, it will be obvious to anyone on the forum if your board is too small, your feet in the wrong position or your weight too far back

Duane.

[2in2out]

I was able to fit 200 lbs of lead in each rear locker under the bags on my Sanger, and 200 under the filler cushion in the bow. I left the bow weight, and shifted the lead bags to under the seats, which allowed me to move them around easier. Usually ran about 70% starboard 900 bag, 100% port 900 bag, 600 bag in ski locker, 200 lead and anchor in bow, 200 evenly distributed midship, double suck gates. 700lbs crew and 500 misc. weight center to port. Port tab 0, starboard tab 40. Speed 10.6-10.8.

28980

[MJHSupra]

The title of this thread still cracks me up

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[Branden967]

Good call about the boards, I didnt think about that. We are currently riding these.

28981

One is a 4'6 and the other is a 5'4. I typically ride the longer one because Im in the 240lb area but my daughter rides both and cant go ropeless. Im not sure how to post a video but here is one of her and her foot placement.

28982

[mpbanskie]

Great, your daughters board has enough lift for her size - there is air under it however her feet are way off.

First thing she needs to move her toes closer to the wave (toe side) of the board, this helps the board grip the wave and turn lift into forward movement.

Second she needs to bring her front foot further towards the front of the pad.

Third if she holds here back arm out over the wave, this will put even more pressure over her toes converting more wave energy into forward momentum.

Finally if she puts her other arm pointing towards the boat that will also help.

Good news is between your current wave and the board she is on, there is plenty fo lift for her to go rope less.

Three small changes that make a massive difference and will almost certainly get her dropping the rope next time out.

Duane.

[2in2out]

Good call about the boards, I didnt think about that. We are currently riding these.

28981

One is a 4'6 and the other is a 5'4. I typically ride the longer one because Im in the 240lb area but my daughter rides both and cant go ropeless. Im not sure how to post a video but here is one of her and her foot placement.

28982

I'm in the 260lb range. I found the Connelly Voodoo 5'1 was really good at surfing a wave like that.

https://www.evo.com/wakesurf-boards/connelly-voodoo-board?image=173399/690168/connelly-voodoo-wakesurf-board-2020-.jpg&gclid=CjwKCAjwqML6BRAHEiwAdquMnccgtd83e2rBkx8anSQT 8RWL267EsxLlqmMKTdOaf9wk9tBId7C6VRoCFdMQAvD_BwE

I've had two hyperlite boards. A 2018 H/L Shim 5.3 and an older H/L that I don't have the name for. Both sucked. I use a H/L landlock 5.9 for my beginner and bigger guy than me board. You can try my Voodoo, and I can help you get your ballast right. I'm just down the hill.

Get a suck gate and some weight and you'll greatly improve that wave.

[mpbanskie]

I will give another vote for Connelly

My fastest board is the Connelly Bentley in the largest size they offer.

Looking at the specs its is slightly wider and has less rocker than the Voodoo so should offer more lift to a larger rider and the flatter rocker will create less drag giving you the best platform for dropping the rope.

I know the voodoo is a fraction longer, but width is more important than length - the extra inch of width under your center of gravity will really make the most of the lift your wave has.

Duane.

[2in2out]

I don’t want to thread jack, but I’ve been curious about the Bentley? How is it for doing 360’s and shove-it’s? I’ve been really hesitant to get another skim style after I regretted buying the H/L Shim, but I really want to get to doing foot tricks.

[Hayden]

@Branden Here's the link I promised showing our ballast bag setup:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/3rcwPyMtt2pfZrpC7

Edit: forgot to mention we are all "regular foot" riders. bags would be opposite if you were riding goofy.