Flow 3.0 - Is it good?

[jazzvancouver]

Hi, can anyone comment on the 3.0 Flow, specifically what effect does it have on the wave over the 2.0? Is it a feature worth paying for or more of a gimmick? Considering for a 2021 Craz. Thanks!

[Stazi]

Great question. I would love to see the difference in the wave from the 2.0 plates to he 3.0 plates.


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[Isaguel]

You would need a side-side comparison. I personally believe what makes by far the most difference in these boats is weight. If you're gonna spend any money on these boats for aftermarket wake improvement, put that money into upgraded ballast systems, like WM's bag busters for the Max, or extra lead. I think the 3.0 is an extra 1100$ on the Mojo. Put that money into Lead, you're gonna get far more results for your dollar that way.
A tab is a tab, it causes list mainly and some delayed convergence secondarily, the improvement is probably marginal by changing the tab shape.
You know what I would really consider spending money on, if there was an option to add surf gates IN ADDITION to the tabs. I wonder what the effect would be.
You would have the list from tab and full delayed convergence from gates, with enough weight, I would assume one should get significant enhancement of the wave length mostly. I don't use the ghetto gates or the mission gates because I don't like stuff that does not look OEM, plus I don't think those are large enough in surface area to produce enough lateral water divergence. I would like it if it was mounted cleanly from factory though.

[MJHSupra]

The Wake9 crew has been riding some Moomba boats recently. They will have some videos on the setups and waves on the different models. Yesterday on social media I was looking at the Mondo wave. The Makai will be after that.

It does not answer you plate question, but wanted to throw that out there as some people have trouble with setup and what the boat can produce.

[dakota4ce]

A lot of misconception about there about what tabs and gates do.

Yes 3.0 is worth it. It does not make a different shaped wave, or a larger wave.

It introduces more yaw to the hull as it travels through the water. The main effect is that your wave face will be clean with less roll and true level weighting. You can switch the wave side to side—without moving weight—and have a clean wave face on both sides.

That’s it. And it works.

As for the addition of gates to tabs as mentioned above, this is really kinda what 3.0 does. Introduces MORE yaw. Yaw creates the “delayed convergence” more than the tab alters water flow. If that makes any sense.


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[haknslash]

Is it possible to retrofit the 3.0 tabs and actuators on a 2.0 flow boat?

[dakota4ce]

Is it possible to retrofit the 3.0 tabs and actuators on a 2.0 flow boat?

Negative—for the most part.

2021 with the larger screen option does have the proper PDM to do it. But I think that is the only one that does.

HOWEVER: I always thought it would be a piece of cake to do. Altering the plate looks easy as pie, and you really could install the second actuators on manual switches and put them down and up yourself. The same result would occur.


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[Stazi]

Or just bend that lip on a brake.


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[dakota4ce]

Or just bend that lip on a brake.


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Staz—since the flow plates don’t raise up beyond parallel with the boat bottom when stowed, you need to be able to make them “flat” again to get out of the water flow. Otherwise it’s like having the center plate 100% down all the time.


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[Hayden]

I personally believe what makes by far the most difference in these boats is weight. If you're gonna spend any money on these boats for aftermarket wake improvement, put that money into upgraded ballast systems, like WM's bag busters for the Max, or extra lead.

I agree that spending money on maxing out ballast is the first step. After that it's picking the options that give you the most fun on the water imo; shorter transitions and faster wave cleanup when swapping, seems like it would be really good. (All anecdotal evidence from researching/watching Moomba youtube videos all week.)

[dakota4ce]

I agree that spending money on maxing out ballast is the first step. After that it's picking the options that give you the most fun on the water imo; shorter transitions and faster wave cleanup when swapping, seems like it would be really good. (All anecdotal evidence from researching/watching Moomba youtube videos all week.)

Please accept my eyewitness accounts of it working. It does. Basically accomplishes what the swell 3.0 system accomplishes on the supra with a slightly different mechanical approach


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[jazzvancouver]

Thank you all for the answers.

[TXSurf4]

Is it possible to retrofit the 3.0 tabs and actuators on a 2.0 flow boat?

As far as an OEM retrofit to 3.0 no you are not able to through the dealers. I already asked mine and they contacted SC and were told no. Dakota and I have discussed a few other way to do it lol


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[Stazi]

You could make it mechanical with a tie rod connected back up to the transom so as the plate goes down it pulls on a lever connected to the hinged portion of the plate to tip it down. Only down side doing it that way is that is would deploy in direct proportion to the amount of tab you use.


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[Isaguel]

A lot of misconception about there about what tabs and gates do.

Yes 3.0 is worth it. It does not make a different shaped wave, or a larger wave.

It introduces more yaw to the hull as it travels through the water. The main effect is that your wave face will be clean with less roll and true level weighting. You can switch the wave side to side—without moving weight—and have a clean wave face on both sides.

That’s it. And it works.

As for the addition of gates to tabs as mentioned above, this is really kinda what 3.0 does. Introduces MORE yaw. Yaw creates the “delayed convergence” more than the tab alters water flow. If that makes any sense.


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Hmmm, don't mean to drag this out or be argumentative but about your Yaw comment. It's an interesting effect I had not considered.
First, are you and engineer, hydraulics, boat designer? I truly am not being facetious, I honestly would like to know. I'm not, my deductions are based on loose research around forums and pure deductive reasoning. I'm not a hardheaded person and am always willing to learn.

But, you mention Yaw being provided by the 3.0 tab design cleaning the wave lip. I'm just trying to understand how that occurs. Again, likely b/c I'm an engineering layman.
This is the explanation I come up with. When surfing, what I have seen is that when the boat turns toward the side contralateral to the surf wave, even with mild turns, the wave lengthens and cleans up nicely. That would be equivalent to Yaw to the right if you're surfing regular. If the boat turns toward the surf side the wave shortens and gets all rough, so much that I have to surf closer to platform in order to not loose wave. That's equivalent to Yaw to left. I'm sure we're all familiar with this.
So, if the 3.0 tab increases Yaw, it would be to the side ipsilateral to the tab, it would in effect cause the bow to point slightly to the right when surfing regular, so right side Yaw, similar to having the boat turn right. Is this what you are referring to? Did I get this right?

I would think any tab deployed will cause some Yaw to the ipsilateral side. We see that when we're driving straight and we have to keep the boat from turning to the side of the deployed tab. That lip on the 3.0 makes that much difference, huh?. Ok, if that is the case, I'll buy it. No arguments here, but then you still have the question of what gets you more bang for buck, extra ballast or the extra Yaw you get from the 3.0's.

Listen man, If you have bottomless pockets, get it all. Don't leave anything behind, but, most frequently we must make decisions based on budgets and someone's gonna get cut.

[FamilyMan]

Hmmm, don't mean to drag this out or be argumentative but about your Yaw comment. It's an interesting effect I had not considered.
First, are you and engineer, hydraulics, boat designer? I truly am not being facetious, I honestly would like to know. I'm not, my deductions are based on loose research around forums and pure deductive reasoning. I'm not a hardheaded person and am always willing to learn.

But, you mention Yaw being provided by the 3.0 tab design cleaning the wave lip. I'm just trying to understand how that occurs. Again, likely b/c I'm an engineering layman.
This is the explanation I come up with. When surfing, what I have seen is that when the boat turns toward the side contralateral to the surf wave, even with mild turns, the wave lengthens and cleans up nicely. That would be equivalent to Yaw to the right if you're surfing regular. If the boat turns toward the surf side the wave shortens and gets all rough, so much that I have to surf closer to platform in order to not loose wave. That's equivalent to Yaw to left. I'm sure we're all familiar with this.
So, if the 3.0 tab increases Yaw, it would be to the side ipsilateral to the tab, it would in effect cause the bow to point slightly to the right when surfing regular, so right side Yaw, similar to having the boat turn right. Is this what you are referring to? Did I get this right?

I would think any tab deployed will cause some Yaw to the ipsilateral side. We see that when we're driving straight and we have to keep the boat from turning to the side of the deployed tab. That lip on the 3.0 makes that much difference, huh?. Ok, if that is the case, I'll buy it. No arguments here, but then you still have the question of what gets you more bang for buck, extra ballast or the extra Yaw you get from the 3.0's.

Listen man, If you have bottomless pockets, get it all. Don't leave anything behind, but, most frequently we must make decisions based on budgets and someone's gonna get cut.


Good points. Would be nice to have a clean wave face without a little bit of listing that I currently use. Throw in hydraulic steering and a stern thruster and I would never feel the need to upgrade.

PS. Ipsilateral, contralateral.... I'll believe you are not in engineering....but going to go with healthcare professional, haha

[dakota4ce]

As far as an OEM retrofit to 3.0 no you are not able to through the dealers. I already asked mine and they contacted SC and were told no. Dakota and I have discussed a few other way to do it lol


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It’s all about the PDM. The older boats don’t have it.


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[dakota4ce]

Hmmm, don't mean to drag this out or be argumentative but about your Yaw comment. It's an interesting effect I had not considered.
First, are you and engineer, hydraulics, boat designer? I truly am not being facetious, I honestly would like to know. I'm not, my deductions are based on loose research around forums and pure deductive reasoning. I'm not a hardheaded person and am always willing to learn.

But, you mention Yaw being provided by the 3.0 tab design cleaning the wave lip. I'm just trying to understand how that occurs. Again, likely b/c I'm an engineering layman.
This is the explanation I come up with. When surfing, what I have seen is that when the boat turns toward the side contralateral to the surf wave, even with mild turns, the wave lengthens and cleans up nicely. That would be equivalent to Yaw to the right if you're surfing regular. If the boat turns toward the surf side the wave shortens and gets all rough, so much that I have to surf closer to platform in order to not loose wave. That's equivalent to Yaw to left. I'm sure we're all familiar with this.
So, if the 3.0 tab increases Yaw, it would be to the side ipsilateral to the tab, it would in effect cause the bow to point slightly to the right when surfing regular, so right side Yaw, similar to having the boat turn right. Is this what you are referring to? Did I get this right?

I would think any tab deployed will cause some Yaw to the ipsilateral side. We see that when we're driving straight and we have to keep the boat from turning to the side of the deployed tab. That lip on the 3.0 makes that much difference, huh?. Ok, if that is the case, I'll buy it. No arguments here, but then you still have the question of what gets you more bang for buck, extra ballast or the extra Yaw you get from the 3.0's.

Listen man, If you have bottomless pockets, get it all. Don't leave anything behind, but, most frequently we must make decisions based on budgets and someone's gonna get cut.

What you state is correct. It creates adverse yaw, which in a simple way directs the rooster tail (which extends in the opposite direction of the hull direction through they water) away from the desired surf wave face. The turbulence of the rooster tail is what dirties the wave face.

Yes there is drag created by the deployed plate that creates yaw, it just happens to not be quite enough in a lot of cases. The yaw plate gives it the extra bit of force needed.

The sole purpose is yaw generation exactly as you state, and that’s why it works. The supra Swell plates are mounted at an angle that generates this yaw inherently. Not sure why Supra and Moomba address this design need differently, but the net effect is the same.

I am not an engineer, just a very studious user with deep conversations with the engineering department at SC under my belt. Lots of chats. Awesome people.

Ballast is always priority number one. If you’re pinching pennies. I am not sure what the Flow3 option costs—as I am getting a Max on which it’s not offered. But for 2021, the Max has the brain to run it (7” screen required). Parts at retail to add it are in the $2600 range by loose calculations.

If I was optioning any of the other models that are 22’ and longer, Flow 3.0 is a no brainer for me. As you can imagine, more yaw force is needed for the longer hulls.


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[dakota4ce]

Good points. Would be nice to have a clean wave face without a little bit of listing that I currently use. Throw in hydraulic steering and a stern thruster and I would never feel the need to upgrade.

PS. Ipsilateral, contralateral.... I'll believe you are not in engineering....but going to go with healthcare professional, haha

I caught that too—I sell total knee and hip replacements for a living. These are common speak for me too. [emoji1787]


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[Hayden]

....I am not sure what the Flow3 option costs—as I am getting a Max on which it’s not offered. But for 2021, the Max has the brain to run it (7” screen required). Parts at retail to add it are in the $2600 range by loose calculations.

If I was optioning any of the other models that are 22’ and longer, Flow 3.0 is a no brainer for me. As you can imagine, more yaw force is needed for the longer hulls.

Damn, was really hoping 2021 Max would have Flow 3.0 as a standard option. Wondering why they'd tease you with such high potential in displacement (vs. Craz/Mojo/Kaiyen) but then limit some aspect of the surfing? I've attached a spec sheet I made for the 2020 models, where I compare all the publicized spec info. (I didn't include fuel weight but it only varies by about 200lbs from Helix to SupraSE.)



Model
Ballast (std)
Ballast (opt)
Length
Pass. Weight
Boat Weight
Boat + Pass. + Ballast


Helix
2400
2800
20'5"
2000
4000
8800


Max
3200
4000
22'6"
2800
4500
11300


Craz
3000

22'
2400
4200
9600


Mojo
3000

23'
2500
4400
9900


Kaiyen
3700

21'5"
2100
4500
10300


Makai
4000

24'5"
2500
5200
11700











SupraSR
3300

20'11"
2200
4950
10450


SupraSA
3500

22'5"
2400
5800
11700


SupraSL
3500

23'5"
2500
5600
11600


SupraSE
4100

24'5"
2800
6150
13050

[dakota4ce]

Damn, was really hoping 2021 Max would have Flow 3.0 as a standard option. Wondering why they'd tease you with such high potential in displacement (vs. Craz/Mojo/Kaiyen) but then limit some aspect of the surfing? I've attached a spec sheet I made for the 2020 models, where I compare all the publicized spec info. (I didn't include fuel weight but it only varies by about 200lbs from Helix to SupraSE.)



Model
Ballast (std)
Ballast (opt)
Length
Pass. Weight
Boat Weight
Boat + Pass. + Ballast


Helix
2400
2800
20'5"
2000
4000
8800


Max
3200
4000
22'6"
2800
4500
11300


Craz
3000

22'
2400
4200
9600


Mojo
3000

23'
2500
4400
9900


Kaiyen
3700

21'5"
2100
4500
10300


Makai
4000

24'5"
2500
5200
11700











SupraSR
3300

20'11"
2200
4950
10450


SupraSA
3500

22'5"
2400
5800
11700


SupraSL
3500

23'5"
2500
5600
11600


SupraSE
4100

24'5"
2800
6150
13050



It’s not an ultimate potential limit, but it’s a user friendliness limit.


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[Hayden]

It’s not an ultimate potential limit, but it’s a user friendliness limit.

To be clear, you're suggesting, they've not added Flow3 to Max because it adds another level of complexity and they want to keep it simple for their 2nd most affordable boat? Less things to worry about on screen?

When you look at total displacement of boat+pass.+ballast, Max is the odd one out there. All the others fall in line, more or less. More cash gets you more displacement (amongst other things). I've listed the table form lowest to highest priced MSRP.

I think they'd corner the market on people shopping 2021's who want, "the best surf wave/experience possible for the least amount of money", if they gave Max the Flow3 option.

If you can add the DIY option, I'd bet there's a lot of folks who would follow in your footsteps.

[dakota4ce]

Yeah—I guess! For $700 I am adding ballast to my max to take it to 5300# of water. Pretty cheap. It will be dope even without Flow 3.

You do need the 7” screen to do the 3.0.


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[Isaguel]

PS. Ipsilateral, contralateral.... I'll believe you are not in engineering....but going to go with healthcare professional, haha

You are correct. I guess these terms get used so often in my profession one assumes they’re more mainstream.


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[2in2out]

You are correct. I guess these terms get used so often in my profession one assumes they’re more mainstream.


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I was riding the rails you were laying down. I actually enjoyed seeing those terms.

[Bigswede]

New guy here, but wake9 just posted a video on how the difference between the two systems.

[MJHSupra]

New guy here, but wake9 just posted a video on how the difference between the two systems.

https://forum.moomba.com/showthread.php?35606-YAW-y-all-on-the-2021-Makai

[SONIC]

Anybody have any insight on why Supra and Moomba use different systems?

Flow 2.0 vs Swell 3.0, sure a lot less cost there without the bracketry for the swell setup, but adding a second set of actuators (along with the warranty issues that will bring) is surely pricier than the swell bracket.

I assume it's to keep the supra tech and wave a little advanced over the moomba?

[996scott]

I've wondered that as well. My conclusion was like yours, probably to keep Supra a step ahead of Moomba.

[dakota4ce]

I've wondered that as well. My conclusion was like yours, probably to keep Supra a step ahead of Moomba.

Discussing this with some internal folks on the Moomba side—-they think Flow is better. Not sure why the 2 different silos, but they sure don’t think Swell 3 > Flow 3 with regard to effectiveness.

In the end they both do the same thing.


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[SONIC]

They both need to license GSA like Tige and MB have IMO. I'm probably going to retrofit GSA style tabs onto my swell system at some point.

[sandm]

but adding a second set of actuators (along with the warranty issues that will bring) is surely pricier than the swell bracket.


this same thought went thru our conversations as we discussed a new boat purchase. frankly was the only negative that we could find on the moombas that felt like it was going to be a repair cost down the road. it also made me think about having too much adjustability in the wave.

as the boat captain, when I step into the water to surf, the easier the helm the better as seems my pulls are never as good as others.... sure some would agree.
and ya, sonic I thought the same thing but didn't want to be the first to type it on gsa :) those that have done side by side with gsa say it's the bomb on any boat.

[dakota4ce]

this same thought went thru our conversations as we discussed a new boat purchase. frankly was the only negative that we could find on the moombas that felt like it was going to be a repair cost down the road. it also made me think about having too much adjustability in the wave.

as the boat captain, when I step into the water to surf, the easier the helm the better as seems my pulls are never as good as others.... sure some would agree.
and ya, sonic I thought the same thing but didn't want to be the first to type it on gsa :) those that have done side by side with gsa say it's the bomb on any boat.

Flow 3 is not adjustable at all—second actuator is automated.

And GSA would be sweet, except all the factory software is incompatible due to different timing and actuator throw. You would have to be a relay wizard or go with a GSA controller.


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[jnr4817]

If the 2nd actuator is automated, why not split difference in degrees bent and put a bend on the flow 2.0 tabs with a break? Makes since to use the general degree the flow 3.0 use from 0-100 and place the medium degree on the flow surf 2.0 tab. No idea if this even makes since, but would be an interesting test. I wonder how much yaw a piece of 2" 90 degree angled metal screwed to the side of the tab would produce.

[dakota4ce]

If the 2nd actuator is automated, why not split difference in degrees bent and put a bend on the flow 2.0 tabs with a break? Makes since to use the general degree the flow 3.0 use from 0-100 and place the medium degree on the flow surf 2.0 tab. No idea if this even makes since, but would be an interesting test. I wonder how much yaw a piece of 2" 90 degree angled metal screwed to the side of the tab would produce.

Except in the stowed position, the whole plate is basically parallel to the bottom of the boat. The second tab needs to be “retracted” to be up and out of the flow of water.

I think a 90 of lip on the tab would do little, aside from cause some turbulence. Would be easy to try though.


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[dakota4ce]

At full amplitude, the secondary tab is all the way down. Which is how most people surf. So any bend would have to be a full bend and thus cause issues when in the stowed position.

Swell avoids this by retracting to a position above parallel and has the angle built into the hinge.


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[dakota4ce]

These tabs are also now being employed in auto leveling, which is where the flow tab design would be superior to the swell.

It’s all very interesting!


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[SONIC]

Flow 3 is not adjustable at all—second actuator is automated.

And GSA would be sweet, except all the factory software is incompatible due to different timing and actuator throw. You would have to be a relay wizard or go with a GSA controller.


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Factory software would work fine with gsa tabs. You set the deploy percentage, it just may be lower or higher than the stock tabs. You may or may not have to change the actuator mount position depending on the install.
I'll probably build my own this winter and see what happens.

[dakota4ce]

Factory software would work fine with gsa tabs. You set the deploy percentage, it just may be lower or higher than the stock tabs. You may or may not have to change the actuator mount position depending on the install.
I'll probably build my own this winter and see what happens.

The timing of actuator power pulse will be completely different. Moomba uses short throw 2.25” actuators, GSA uses long throw 4.25”

But go ahead and figure out how to make it work. You sound like you have it all figured out. Would love to use GSA tabs.


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[dakota4ce]

And you absolutely have to change the mount position, as GSA needs 10 degrees down and 20 degrees up to work properly.

I have ridden in this rodeo. I put GSA on my Makai. Factory software and actuators aren’t compatible. If you used programmable relays maybe it would work, but then auto launch and auto level would be all jacked up.


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[dakota4ce]

Here’s another crazy finding, my Makai was better with GSA, but not markedly so. In fact, it was hard to tell. I removed it and went back to factory software functionality because of Autolaunch.


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[KnoxMojo]

Flow and Swell are different because Supra and Moomba are actually 2 different companies under Skiers Choice.. they each also have their own engineers.. my guess is they're different because the hulls are different between the 2 with different geometry. Just an uneducated guess, not sure why they share some tech but not the surf system.

[SONIC]

The timing of actuator power pulse will be completely different. Moomba uses short throw 2.25” actuators, GSA uses long throw 4.25”

But go ahead and figure out how to make it work. You sound like you have it all figured out. Would love to use GSA tabs.


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Not sure why so argumentative.
There are certainly changes to be made and it's obviously not going to bolt up with stock gsa parts.
My last gsa build used 2.25" short throw Bennett actuators so that's not a problem.

Auto level and launch would still work if done correctly. It all comes down to the geometry of the mounting to get the deployments close to the factory deployment with similar timing.

Not trying to be an ass but just because you bolted stock parts up and it didn't work doesn't mean it can't if done properly.

[KnoxMojo]

Not sure why so argumentative.
There are certainly changes to be made and it's obviously not going to bolt up with stock gsa parts.
My last gsa build used 2.25" short throw Bennett actuators so that's not a problem.

Auto level and launch would still work if done correctly. It all comes down to the geometry of the mounting to get the deployments close to the factory deployment with similar timing.

Not trying to be an ass but just because you bolted stock parts up and it didn't work doesn't mean it can't if done properly.

At that point it looks like you're just wanting a larger tab? I'm not sure all the effort on a boat that has a nice surf system is really worth all the effort.. several people have done gsa on the new boats, all said it was better, and only marginally, and that may have just been hopeful thinking because they spent the money to do it. Really hard to quantify results.

[SONIC]

Gsa tabs are a lot more than just larger tabs.
I like to tinker and make things. My SA wave is great. If I can make it better why not.

To clarify spending 4k on it is in no way worth it on a new boat IMO.
But I can make them for nothing and see what happens.

[KnoxMojo]

Gsa tabs are a lot more than just larger tabs.
I like to tinker and make things. My SA wave is great. If I can make it better why not.

To clarify spending 4k on it is in no way worth it on a new boat IMO.
But I can make them for nothing and see what happens.

Fair enough.. have fun, hopefully it's great, I'll buy a set, lol

[dakota4ce]

Not sure why so argumentative.
There are certainly changes to be made and it's obviously not going to bolt up with stock gsa parts.
My last gsa build used 2.25" short throw Bennett actuators so that's not a problem.

Auto level and launch would still work if done correctly. It all comes down to the geometry of the mounting to get the deployments close to the factory deployment with similar timing.

Not trying to be an ass but just because you bolted stock parts up and it didn't work doesn't mean it can't if done properly.

I did not “bolt stock parts” up. I installed GSA.


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[dakota4ce]

Not sure why so argumentative.
There are certainly changes to be made and it's obviously not going to bolt up with stock gsa parts.
My last gsa build used 2.25" short throw Bennett actuators so that's not a problem.

Auto level and launch would still work if done correctly. It all comes down to the geometry of the mounting to get the deployments close to the factory deployment with similar timing.

Not trying to be an ass but just because you bolted stock parts up and it didn't work doesn't mean it can't if done properly.

Really interested to see how you got the large range of movement out of a 2.25” stock actuator without overloading it due to what will need to be a very short lever arm. Show me some pics of your last build? What was it on?

I would never do it in a 2020 SA personally. The improvement in wave was negligible at best on Makai. Swell 3.0 is a great setup.


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[dakota4ce]

Not sure why so argumentative.
There are certainly changes to be made and it's obviously not going to bolt up with stock gsa parts.
My last gsa build used 2.25" short throw Bennett actuators so that's not a problem.

Auto level and launch would still work if done correctly. It all comes down to the geometry of the mounting to get the deployments close to the factory deployment with similar timing.

Not trying to be an ass but just because you bolted stock parts up and it didn't work doesn't mean it can't if done properly.

You’re right, it’s all geometry. So you’re going to change the mounting point of the GSA tab to be much closer to the hinge. Like, borderline right next to the hinge. At that point it’s not a GSA tab, it’s a home made tab that is like GSA. That’s a bit different than what we were talking about. Which was converting a SC boat to GSA tabs. You’re starting from scratch with one off stuff out of your shop.

I personally would be very concerned about auto leveling—deploying that giant tab into the water stream at 25mph. That’s a shit ton of force on the mounting screws.

I say get to getting! It would be neat to see.

Show us what you did before?


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[SONIC]

Really interested to see how you got the large range of movement out of a 2.25” stock actuator without overloading it due to what will need to be a very short lever arm. Show me some pics of your last build? What was it on?

I would never do it in a 2020 SA personally. The improvement in wave was negligible at best on Makai. Swell 3.0 is a great setup.


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Tige 23V.
It is a short lever arm, but no issue with the actuators.
30 degrees up 14 degrees down.

28935

Lots of testing with placement to get it right.

28936


i agree Swell3 is very good, but I'd put money on GSA style being better. No way to know but to try though :D

[SONIC]

You’re right, it’s all geometry. So you’re going to change the mounting point of the GSA tab to be much closer to the hinge. Like, borderline right next to the hinge. At that point it’s not a GSA tab, it’s a home made tab that is like GSA. That’s a bit different than what we were talking about. Which was converting a SC boat to GSA tabs. You’re starting from scratch with one off stuff out of your shop.

I personally would be very concerned about auto leveling—deploying that giant tab into the water stream at 25mph. That’s a shit ton of force on the mounting screws.

I say get to getting! It would be neat to see.

Show us what you did before?


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If you reread my post that got you all hot and bothered you'll see I said GSA Style tab :D Hence why I said you used stock parts.

On my tige I used them for launch mode and I did use them to level on occasion but I agree its a lot of force on the screws at that point. That being said they didn't fail.

[dakota4ce]

I would suspect your mounting brackets might have to have to look a little something like the Swell 3.0 brackets look which move the top mount of the actuator out and away from the boat—in order to get the range of movement you need.

Anyway, good luck!


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[SONIC]

I would suspect your mounting brackets might have to have to look a little something like the Swell 3.0 brackets look which move the top mount of the actuator out and away from the boat—in order to get the range of movement you need.

Anyway, good luck!


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I agree, I really like the approach SC took there, it's really clever and is much better for the actuators long term IMO.
I would likely clone the Swell bracketry and replace the swell tab with the GSA style tab and then figure out the actuator throw for placement of the attachment point to the tab.

Just depends on how bored I get this winter!

[dakota4ce]

If you reread my post that got you all hot and bothered you'll see I said GSA Style tab :D Hence why I said you used stock parts.

On my tige I used them for launch mode and I did use them to level on occasion but I agree its a lot of force on the screws at that point. That being said they didn't fail.

Yeah I guess you got me really good there with the word “style.” To me the spirit of the conversation is really about being able to put GSA tabs on a swell or flow boat. That for me really is the only practical way to discuss this, because I do not have a fabrication shop or the time to spend figuring it all out. Nor does most everyone else—except of course you. Remaking the entire system to be one-off custom opens up the realm of what’s possible without a doubt. But nobody besides you will be able to get it done. I am a stock parts guy. Mostly anyway.

Good luck! For the rest of us, GSA tabs on a Skier’s choice boat are pretty much a pipe dream.


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[jnr4817]

You permanently bend both tabs to match the flow 3.0. When not in surf mode how much actual drag will be placed on the tabs? If there is a small amount of stage placed on the tabs will it be much and eventually wear out the connection to the boat. I’d try a none permanent solution.

[z28ke]

Y’all got me thinking about the possibility of converting 2.0 to 3.0, seems like a reverse lever system could work....

Thinking out loud here: One end mounted to the transom, fixed pivot point mounted to the regular tab, other end mounted on the “flap” at the end of the tab. As the regular tab goes down and away from the transom, it would extend the flap. The amount of “throw” achieved could be altered by using different length arms between the moving pivots and the fixed pivot.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200819/2d3ffb4e4b7e43e422a8ac2f53cf08a6.jpg

[jnr4817]

Y’all got me thinking about the possibility of converting 2.0 to 3.0, seems like a reverse lever system could work....

Thinking out loud here: One end mounted to the transom, fixed pivot point mounted to the regular tab, other end mounted on the “flap” at the end of the tab. As the regular tab goes down and away from the transom, it would extend the flap. The amount of “throw” achieved could be altered by using different length arms between the moving pivots and the fixed pivot.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200819/2d3ffb4e4b7e43e422a8ac2f53cf08a6.jpg

I'd be willing to try, as long as its not permanent.

[Tommy2slow]

Am I missing something here? If delayed convergence is what you’re after why not try a hillbilly homemade suckgate out and see if it improves your wave. If Flow 3.0 is such a game changer ( I’m not so sure it is) someone will do the R&D for you and then just buy the product with all the bugs already worked out..just sayin

[z28ke]

Am I missing something here? If delayed convergence is what you’re after why not try a hillbilly homemade suckgate out and see if it improves your wave. If Flow 3.0 is such a game changer ( I’m not so sure it is) someone will do the R&D for you and then just buy the product with all the bugs already worked out..just sayin

I’m with you, a baby suckgate would simulate the same “crab” effect of the 3.0 wing with the 2.0 tab deployed. I’m not putting my time and energy into it making a 2.0 to 3.0 conversion, I just saw working out the mechanics of it without an additional actuator as a fun challenge to discuss.

[dakota4ce]

Am I missing something here? If delayed convergence is what you’re after why not try a hillbilly homemade suckgate out and see if it improves your wave. If Flow 3.0 is such a game changer ( I’m not so sure it is) someone will do the R&D for you and then just buy the product with all the bugs already worked out..just sayin

I don't think its a game changer. It just allows clean waves on each side without dicking around with ballast or going for more list angle. Fill everything, have clean wave no matter what side you choose because of the yaw it adds. That is it. Convenience.

And it works. Well. True level weighted clean side switching.

[dakota4ce]

I’m with you, a baby suckgate would simulate the same “crab” effect of the 3.0 wing with the 2.0 tab deployed. I’m not putting my time and energy into it making a 2.0 to 3.0 conversion, I just saw working out the mechanics of it without an additional actuator as a fun challenge to discuss.

Heck you could add the additional actuator and just put it on manual switches. Same same.

Adding a suck gate would actually make it less convenient than offsetting ballast to clean the wave up.

[z28ke]

Heck you could add the additional actuator and just put it on manual switches. Same same.

Adding a suck gate would actually make it less convenient than offsetting ballast to clean the wave up.

Absolutely, I just started thinking about how do you mechanically (without an actuator) make something deploy downward, while it is attached to something that is also deploying downward? Obviously the engineers at SC decided an electric actuator is best, but I was stumped at the challenge of trying to figure out an alternative. A reverse lever is what I came up with. Just nerding out here trying to solve a hypothetical problem since I found it interesting lol.

[Tommy2slow]

I’m with you, a baby suckgate would simulate the same “crab” effect of the 3.0 wing with the 2.0 tab deployed. I’m not putting my time and energy into it making a 2.0 to 3.0 conversion, I just saw working out the mechanics of it without an additional actuator as a fun challenge to discuss.

Sorry bud, I wasnÂ’t directing my question at anyone in particular. I was just wondering after reading the thread why nobody was using a suckgate of some kind to create the delayed convergence that Is the intended effect of the 3.0 to see how well it works. For sure, the convenience of having it only the push of a button away is attractive but I would want to see the effects of the gate on the wave first if I could. I already weight my boat evenly so a quick change to one side or the other for a suckgate wouldnÂ’t be a huge hassle. As far as even weight goes and using delayed convergence, I would be willing to bet that Nauti and Malibu owners still list their boats to clean up their wave.

Your ideas on adding a linkage that lowers the hinged corner as the surf tabs are lowered is bordering on genius though. If you actually figure it out IÂ’ll be the first to place an order.

Cheers

[dakota4ce]

Sorry bud, I wasnÂ’t directing my question at anyone in particular. I was just wondering after reading the thread why nobody was using a suckgate of some kind to create the delayed convergence that Is the intended effect of the 3.0 to see how well it works. For sure, the convenience of having it only the push of a button away is attractive but I would want to see the effects of the gate on the wave first if I could. I already weight my boat evenly so a quick change to one side or the other for a suckgate wouldnÂ’t be a huge hassle. As far as even weight goes and using delayed convergence, I would be willing to bet that Nauti and Malibu owners still list their boats to clean up their wave.

Your ideas on adding a linkage that lowers the hinged corner as the surf tabs are lowered is bordering on genius though. If you actually figure it out IÂ’ll be the first to place an order.

Cheers

Yaw. It makes yaw. We are looking for yaw.

Delayed convergence is a somewhat mythical concept written in a brilliant Malibu Patent.


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[parrothd]

Make a mini suckgate and stick on the side of the boat. :)

[Shoebox]

Yaw. It makes yaw. We are looking for yaw.

Delayed convergence is a somewhat mythical concept written in a brilliant Malibu Patent.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkDelayed convergence is what all surf gates, tabs, shapers, and listing do, in different ways. It's all the same result. A wave.

[Shoebox]

Tige 23V.
It is a short lever arm, but no issue with the actuators.
30 degrees up 14 degrees down.

28935

Lots of testing with placement to get it right.

28936


i agree Swell3 is very good, but I'd put money on GSA style being better. No way to know but to try though :DDo you have a pic of it extended? I have a hard time believing you got any kind of travel with a 2.25" throw actuator. I built a similar system, and short throw wouldn't work. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200820/d85e59b94e1a2deed5c86c18414de072.jpg

[dakota4ce]

Delayed convergence is what all surf gates, tabs, shapers, and listing do, in different ways. It's all the same result. A wave.

What? Never heard of it.

Just kidding. I know this.

The small plate on 3.0 adds a yaw moment. That’s what I was clarifying.

My comment about it being mythical is because their patent uses that term, but applies to everything. It really is a brilliant patent but is far too broad. But it’s too late for that critique, though.

I am going to patent accelerated convergence and sue them.


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[dakota4ce]

Do you have a pic of it extended? I have a hard time believing you got any kind of travel with a 2.25" throw actuator. I built a similar system, and short throw wouldn't work. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200820/d85e59b94e1a2deed5c86c18414de072.jpg

He would really only need 5-7 degrees below the boat bottom—thats where all mine were best. Of course considering errors in measurement. Measuring that angle is different every time it seems.

This pic looks like you have a lot of down travel.

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[SONIC]

Do you have a pic of it extended? I have a hard time believing you got any kind of travel with a 2.25" throw actuator. I built a similar system, and short throw wouldn't work. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200820/d85e59b94e1a2deed5c86c18414de072.jpg

I'll see what I can find.
I had 30 degrees up and 14 degrees down.

[SONIC]

Ask and ye shall receive.

https://forum.moomba.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=28942&d=1597939211

[dakota4ce]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200820/40ab3e765fc304dbaea718f7833d666a.jpg
That’s a gigantic actuator for 2.25”! Weird looking. Seems like it’s as long as a Lenco body is for the 4.25” version.

What’s the actuator look like In the up position? Not familiar with Bennet at all. Looks like it’s mounted exactly like a Lenco would be—really far outboard on the plate. I would have expected the opposite.

Are the plate dimensions similar?


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[SONIC]

The tabs are same basic dimensions as the GSA tabs

They are Bennet Bolt actuators, their newer line to compete with Lenco.
Nice thing is lifetime warranty so no more having to buy new lencos every few years lol They warrantied one that I broke with a misalignment without question.
Only downside is the bottom mount is plastic where the lenco is metal.
13.75" length 2.5" stroke. (I misspoke on the 2.25 if that 1/4" matters to anyone :D)

https://forum.moomba.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=28943&d=1597941037

They make kits to convert lencos over so I assume they are the same dimensions essentially, but the bolts are larger in diameter.

[tre]

I don't have anything to add here but I find this a super interesting conversation. I learned a lot more about how these systems work. I've wondered, all summer, how my Supra can make such a great wave equally weighted when my old Supra needed to be listed to make a good wave. We tried listing the new boat and the wave was worse. These systems want equal weight and really are ingenious.

[dakota4ce]

I don't have anything to add here but I find this a super interesting conversation. I learned a lot more about how these systems work. I've wondered, all summer, how my Supra can make such a great wave equally weighted when my old Supra needed to be listed to make a good wave. We tried listing the new boat and the wave was worse. These systems want equal weight and really are ingenious.

All about the yaw! Gets that rooster tail away from the wave face and cleans that mess right up. Pretty sweet!

GSA plates make yaw with the vectoring channels built into the plate. Very slick design.

[SONIC]

Surf systems have come a long way in just a few years that's for sure.
Many different approaches can all create a great wave Surfgates (malibu), Tabs (SC, Tige, Mastercraft, centurion, etc) and NSS (nautique) are all different approaches to the same goal and they all work.

[jnr4817]

This is a great discussion. With the 2.0 system being on many boats out in the wild a manual or synchronized way of adding the 3.0 lip would be a big hit. I’m a nurse and work on people so, I have nothing to add except a boat I’ll trial something you good people can come up with.

[Shoebox]

What? Never heard of it.

Just kidding. I know this.

The small plate on 3.0 adds a yaw moment. That’s what I was clarifying.

My comment about it being mythical is because their patent uses that term, but applies to everything. It really is a brilliant patent but is far too broad. But it’s too late for that critique, though.

I am going to patent accelerated convergence and sue them.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkYeah I know, it wasn't really directed at you, more the guy who you were replying to.

[Shoebox]

He would really only need 5-7 degrees below the boat bottom—thats where all mine were best. Of course considering errors in measurement. Measuring that angle is different every time it seems.

This pic looks like you have a lot of down travel.

Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkHe said he has 30 up and 14 down. Not sure what my up was, looked similar to his, and I had it set to 18 down - too much as you noted, 5 was perfect. But not too different than what he had, and adjustable depending on which mount hole was used, and where I mounted the lower mount. I suppose you could get significant up and 6-8 down with a short throw actuator.

You can see in this pic of the smaller tabs I made as well, I could get between 12 and 30 down depending on where I placed the lower mount. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200820/372c3caf4fc1f97fb4e3b0bbc25afea0.jpg

[SONIC]

Yeah as you know a small movement in the actuator mount can have a large effect on the deployment, looks like on your small tabs about an inch of placement difference yielded 18 degrees of change.
Through a lot of trial and error on placement for both ends i was able to get the extension and retraction that I wanted with the 2.5" actuator.
It would have been easier with the 4.5" version but I wanted to give the bennetts a try and they don't have the long throw versions.

[dakota4ce]

Yeah as you know a small movement in the actuator mount can have a large effect on the deployment, looks like on your small tabs about an inch of placement difference yielded 18 degrees of change.
Through a lot of trial and error on placement for both ends i was able to get the extension and retraction that I wanted with the 2.5" actuator.
It would have been easier with the 4.5" version but I wanted to give the bennetts a try and they don't have the long throw versions.

Would be interesting to see the software linked up to the 2.25 and a GSA plate. I think you need to do this!

If you can get auto level, launch, and good surf operation on the lenco 2.25s you would crack the code. All assuming the tabs don’t rip out of the glass when autoleveling.

I would also wonder if those little guys have the stink to move those big plates under pressure.


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[SONIC]

Would be interesting to see the software linked up to the 2.25 and a GSA plate. I think you need to do this!

If you can get auto level, launch, and good surf operation on the lenco 2.25s you would crack the code. All assuming the tabs don’t rip out of the glass when autoleveling.

I would also wonder if those little guys have the stink to move those big plates under pressure.


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Yeah the auto leveling may be an issue.
Instead of doing the logical and intelligent thing and deploying the correct tab slowly until the boat is level for some unknowable reason they programmed it to deploy to 40% immediately and then move from there to set the level.
At 30mph taking a gsa from 0-40% is probably not a good idea.

It can be turned off though.
I don't find it overly useful anyway as its not sensitive enough, it lets me ride around at +/- 1.5 degrees without making any changes. I prefer to just fill the ballast on the off side so it rides level.

[2in2out]

Yaw. It makes yaw. We are looking for yaw.

Delayed convergence is a somewhat mythical concept written in a brilliant Malibu Patent.






The small plate on 3.0 adds a yaw moment. That’s what I was clarifying.

My comment about it being mythical is because their patent uses that term, but applies to everything. It really is a brilliant patent but is far too broad. But it’s too late for that critique, though.

I am going to patent accelerated convergence and sue them.

The GSA tab accessory creates a minimal yaw moment and delay in convergence through Bernoulli's Principle and Newton's 2nd law of motion in that the flow of water in the vanes increases in pressure and net velocity disrupting the laminar flow of the slip line of the hull creating delay in the convergence of the water. Imagine running a high volume pump and nozzle under the rear hull of your boat directed away from the surf side. Running a hose underwater doesn't create cavitation, whereas a tab penetrating the surface and disrupting surface tension does. The force of the volume of water emanating from the nozzle would alter the slip line subsurface, changing its trajectory creating a low pressure area where static water and the vectored water under pressure occur. Convergence shifts with less disruption to surface tension and amplified action.

Suck gates are more torturous in that they disrupt the surface tension and laminar flow so greatly that eddies and vortices introduce air into the slip line and convergence reducing the overall density of the wave, and as the Wake9 2021 Makai video shows, decreases the firmness of the wave. I would call this a forced convergence, because you're forcing the boat to disrupt its slip line to create a low pressure area for the opposing convergence to fill.

My concern with the Flow 3.0 tab is that it is to disruptive to the laminar flow of the slip line that it is introducing cavitation reducing wave density. I think the GSA design applied correctly on tab in which you could modulate the depth the chutes carve and redirect away from the slip line could give much greater wave adjustment.

The displacement created by a yawed hull is important in that it creates a larger low pressure area that increase in wave amplitude and the needs of surface tension are forced to react with a bigger wave. But if you introduce more yaw than can be absorbed by the slip line, laminar flow will be disrupted introducing cavitation and air induction at the surface. Add roll into the direction of yaw, and the laminar flow and resulting low pressure area are too subsurface for surface wave amplitude formation. One way to modulate yaw would be to include the tracking vanes and rudder into a complex system to force more yaw of the hull, but I have to think that beyond a certain percentage of yaw, significant drag would result and disruption of propulsive force of the prop.


I built a similar system, and short throw wouldn't work. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200820/d85e59b94e1a2deed5c86c18414de072.jpg

The problem I see with ShoeBoxes set up is that the GSA like addition to the tabs forces water down and away from the subsurface convergence point as the down angle of the tabs is increased. An articulation point just forward of the vanes allowing them to ride parallel to the slip line, but subsurface may allow for better redirection at steeper tab angles. I wonder if putting a break and hinge forward of the GSA vanes and a gas strut for leveling of the GSA would keep it close to level but subsurface.

This is all great discussion. As a disclaimer, I have no engineering training and only minimal understanding of fluid dynamics. Everything I said I pulled out my arse to describe the vague and incomplete concepts of this whole thing out of my head. I understand why the patent stated "mythical".

[2in2out]

Would be interesting to see the software linked up to the 2.25 and a GSA plate. I think you need to do this!

If you can get auto level, launch, and good surf operation on the lenco 2.25s you would crack the code. All assuming the tabs don’t rip out of the glass when autoleveling.

I would also wonder if those little guys have the stink to move those big plates under pressure.


Yeah the auto leveling may be an issue.
Instead of doing the logical and intelligent thing and deploying the correct tab slowly until the boat is level for some unknowable reason they programmed it to deploy to 40% immediately and then move from there to set the level.
At 30mph taking a gsa from 0-40% is probably not a good idea.

It can be turned off though.
I don't find it overly useful anyway as its not sensitive enough, it lets me ride around at +/- 1.5 degrees without making any changes. I prefer to just fill the ballast on the off side so it rides level.

I had concerns about this when I investigated the GSA system for my Sanger 215SX. Cruising without trim tabs would be untenable, and I was afraid deployment at speed would rip the tabs off. I asked GSA what they could do to accommodate both functions, and the answer was basically you gotta give to get. That wasn't suitable to me.

I contemplated a design that would had slots cut out of the trim tabs for the GSA vertical vanes and a cam actuator to raise the GSA vane box so that the bottom plate would flush with the trim tab plate at cruise speeds, and drop at surf speeds.

Since the trim tab adjustment on the Sanger was 30 degrees max, the GSA wouldn't be driven to a steep angle like Shoeboxes set-up.

[Shoebox]

The GSA tab accessory creates a minimal yaw moment and delay in convergence through Bernoulli's Principle and Newton's 2nd law of motion in that the flow of water in the vanes increases in pressure and net velocity disrupting the laminar flow of the slip line of the hull creating delay in the convergence of the water. Imagine running a high volume pump and nozzle under the rear hull of your boat directed away from the surf side. Running a hose underwater doesn't create cavitation, whereas a tab penetrating the surface and disrupting surface tension does. The force of the volume of water emanating from the nozzle would alter the slip line subsurface, changing its trajectory creating a low pressure area where static water and the vectored water under pressure occur. Convergence shifts with less disruption to surface tension and amplified action.

Suck gates are more torturous in that they disrupt the surface tension and laminar flow so greatly that eddies and vortices introduce air into the slip line and convergence reducing the overall density of the wave, and as the Wake9 2021 Makai video shows, decreases the firmness of the wave. I would call this a forced convergence, because you're forcing the boat to disrupt its slip line to create a low pressure area for the opposing convergence to fill.

My concern with the Flow 3.0 tab is that it is to disruptive to the laminar flow of the slip line that it is introducing cavitation reducing wave density. I think the GSA design applied correctly on tab in which you could modulate the depth the chutes carve and redirect away from the slip line could give much greater wave adjustment.

The displacement created by a yawed hull is important in that it creates a larger low pressure area that increase in wave amplitude and the needs of surface tension are forced to react with a bigger wave. But if you introduce more yaw than can be absorbed by the slip line, laminar flow will be disrupted introducing cavitation and air induction at the surface. Add roll into the direction of yaw, and the laminar flow and resulting low pressure area are too subsurface for surface wave amplitude formation. One way to modulate yaw would be to include the tracking vanes and rudder into a complex system to force more yaw of the hull, but I have to think that beyond a certain percentage of yaw, significant drag would result and disruption of propulsive force of the prop.



The problem I see with ShoeBoxes set up is that the GSA like addition to the tabs forces water down and away from the subsurface convergence point as the down angle of the tabs is increased. An articulation point just forward of the vanes allowing them to ride parallel to the slip line, but subsurface may allow for better redirection at steeper tab angles. I wonder if putting a break and hinge forward of the GSA vanes and a gas strut for leveling of the GSA would keep it close to level but subsurface.

This is all great discussion. As a disclaimer, I have no engineering training and only minimal understanding of fluid dynamics. Everything I said I pulled out my arse to describe the vague and incomplete concepts of this whole thing out of my head. I understand why the patent stated "mythical".My tabs were an exact copy of GSA tabs. While your thought makes sense in theory, GSA's original tabs had a hinge forward of the vanes, with a turnbuckle for adjustability. They don't make them that way anymore, I'd imagine for good reason.

[Shoebox]

Since the trim tab adjustment on the Sanger was 30 degrees max, the GSA wouldn't be driven to a steep angle like Shoeboxes set-up.Mine only went to 18°, and I had adjustability to do less.

[dakota4ce]

Well, GSA TABS do seem to create yaw as observed from driving the boat and how clean the waves end up.

Or.....
Maybe they don’t.

[emoji1787]


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[Shoebox]

Well, GSA TABS do seem to create yaw as observed from driving the boat and how clean the waves end up.

Or.....
Maybe they don’t.

[emoji1787]


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkYou mean like this? [emoji16] [emoji1690] https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200820/b62042c0017b113d8b80e1e69d29451b.jpg

[dakota4ce]

You mean like this? [emoji16] [emoji1690] https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200820/b62042c0017b113d8b80e1e69d29451b.jpg

That seems clean!


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[dakota4ce]

To revisit the OP question: Flow 3.0, is it good?

Yes.


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[z28ke]

If 2in2out isn’t an engineer he’s a damn good bullsh*tter!!!!!

[2in2out]

Thank you sir!

I’ve just filled my head thinking about all of this while riding in the wrong boat. I’ll hopefully have a SA to sit upon next season and think of other things than big, long, pushy waves.

Eh, who am I kidding, that’s BS too!

[z28ke]

Thank you sir!

I’ve just filled my head thinking about all of this while riding in the wrong boat. I’ll hopefully have a SA to sit upon next season and think of other things than big, long, pushy waves.

Eh, who am I kidding, that’s BS too!

As a gearhead and speed freak I would never call a Sanger the “wrong” boat considering their serious west coast racing pedigree, but when it comes to surf wakes maybe just not the “right” boat. I rarely see one here in NC, but when I do I usually have way more appreciation for what it is than the owner...

[sandm]

sanger bubble decks are the bomb in the big engine jet scene. uncle has one that he uses on the colorado at laughlin.

beyond that they build a decent boat but with little engineering and marketing monies, they have struggled. rarely see one anywhere outside of cali anymore.
we had some friends that, back in 07-12 had a V210. good little boat and solid ride but it had some challenges. surfed it a TON and as good wave(maybe better) than our launch20 but couldn't overcome the interior/mechanical quality issues.

[2in2out]

The Sanger was a good boat for us because we hadn’t decided what we wanted to do on the water. I had never surfed before, and wanted to learn. My wife likes knee and wake boarding, but got injured at work shortly after getting the boat, so she doesn’t do either now. Grandkids love the tube unfortunately, one place the Sanger will be better than the SA. The crew we get leans more towards surf, so we needed more than it could provide.

Like I said, if I’d have had a moomba dealership near me, we’d probably be in one now and not searching for a better surf machine.

[sandm]

interesting find today. this boat has both tabs on each corner AND what looks like a smaller copy of surfgate.
hard to find pics of the back end but you can see it if you flip a few pages in.
wonder how it surfs....
http://online.fliphtml5.com/cydw/ibvm/#p=8

[Shoebox]

interesting find today. this boat has both tabs on each corner AND what looks like a smaller copy of surfgate.
hard to find pics of the back end but you can see it if you flip a few pages in.
wonder how it surfs....
http://online.fliphtml5.com/cydw/ibvm/#p=8Looks like small tabs and gates. Interesting. Wonder if them being smaller helps keep the 2 systems from messing with each other.

[sandm]

150k boat so I'll never know :)

[dakota4ce]

150k boat so I'll never know :)

I would be utterly shocked if they’ve sold one. I saw them when they were released and it was very strange.


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[sandm]

I would be utterly shocked if they’ve sold one. I saw them when they were released and it was very strange.


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theres one on onlyinboards so they did sell at least 1.....