Engine shutoff during ballast fill

[Alexander Bowen]

I have a Moomba mobius LSV (2005). And it has the original gravity 3 system, whenever I fill the ballast, occasionally the whole boat will shut off including all electrical, after about 3-5 mins it will have power come back on and you can start the motor. I know it’s not a lot of detail, but any ideas on what causes that? I looked at my ballast system and drew a rough diagram although I didn’t trace all the wiring. I want to replace the whole thing and intend to, but wasn’t sure if there was an easy fix to prevent this from happening.


https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190924/647967130df0d22c7929a1a1c8940df8.jpg


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[Stazi]

Battery and/or alternator is toast.


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[sandm]

I was going to guess bad main ground?

does it only do it when filling ballast? does it have any issues starting? doesn't do it when stereo is cranked?

[Stazi]

Could be bad grounds or corroded battery terminals too. highly doubtful it’s anything to do with the pumps. If they were shorting, they’d pop breakers/fuses for the ballast circuit - not shut the entire boat down.


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[Alexander Bowen]

It ONLY does it when filling ballast, not at any other time, emptying it doesn’t do it, even when having the stereo on, and charging my phone from the cigarette lighter it doesn’t do it. I was wondering if the electronic valves could be causing a short? But wouldn’t that just flip a fuse or breaker for the ballast system rather than the entire boat?


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[Stazi]

It ONLY does it when filling ballast, not at any other time, emptying it doesn’t do it, even when having the stereo on, and charging my phone from the cigarette lighter it doesn’t do it. I was wondering if the electronic valves could be causing a short? But wouldn’t that just flip a fuse or breaker for the ballast system rather than the entire boat?


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I would think the breaker would pop.

One thing to note though; you ballast system has ONE pump to fill, but 3 different pumps for emptying. It could be the fill pump, but again I would think excessive current draw to overcome low voltage would trip the ballast breaker.


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[sandm]

provided there is a breaker involved. I found when working on my old '06 supra there were a few electrical shortcuts taken- not to mention he could have a monday/friday build that someone just hooked up a wire wrong or didn't secure properly.

I'd trace the wiring on the fill pump and valves back to see where it goes and ensure it's all tidy and check grounding from the battery(s) and engine ground.
my guess is still a bad ground or wire short somewhere.

[Alexander Bowen]

I will trace the wiring and see if a circuit breaker is installed, I have a feeling there isn’t one... any ideas on what size of breaker to throw in there? Like I said I want to replace the whole system and intend to; but I just want to make it safe right now


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[sandm]

once you have it traced down and know the root cause, I'd reach out to MLA on here for his advice. he's one of the resident go-to guys for ballast. he will be able to design you a new system and ship you all the pieces/parts to install(and his customer service is second to none if you have an issue with install on a late saturday night). he will have a recommendation on what will work with a new system so you are not buying extra parts down the road.

good luck.

[Alexander Bowen]

Well, I have come up with a hypothesis to what could be causing my issues with the boat shutting off.

I have three images below that help to explain and i tried to put text on them to help in understanding them. I think the ballast pump is fed off the ignition. Is this normal? Also it appears that the ignition system has a smaller gauge wire feeding it, so I think its just too much draw for that one small wire and its flipping the breaker. I remember the first time the boat shut off (freaked me out), that eventually i pushed the ignition breaker button and it came back to life (I didn't know it was a breaker at the time) It has happened multiple times since then but the button doesn't seem to always fix it.

anyway, should i just take that wire and transition it over to the 12 volt cigarette lighter breaker instead?

See the images below for explanation

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190925/edec5dfd84c267173cf2a8e29faa17fb.jpg

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190925/4bea0e4093f586d80528d4b3913ccb07.jpg

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190925/aa8ae2da35e1bb3f165b1fb3d36da414.jpg


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[sandm]

not sure what your end goal is. I would decide at this point what you want long term for upgrades and then plan how to attack this issue. if it was my boat I would be planning a 3 pump fill and drain setup. that said I would wire the pumps outside of the ignition circuit. if your boat is like my '06 supra was, there should be a positive buss bar under the dash. hook onto that and wire the pump thru it's own circuit/breaker.

[zabooda]

You may have a common connection between the ground of the pump and your ignition circuitry that in turn has a poor ground to your battery ground. When you turn on your pump, there is a high enough voltage potential applied to the negative wires to drop out your ignition circuit. You should see a reduction in pump speed if this occurs. Check the continuity of your ground wire to the terminal block.

[Alexander Bowen]

Well I went and wired the the feed wire for the pump/valves up and hooked it into the hot bus. It has its own distinct ground wire going to the grounding buss, the ground appears okay, I havnt’ plopped the boat in the water yet, but from my examinations without turning the boat all the way on, it appears to work, only time will tell I guess. I probably should wire in a breaker for it, but it does have fuses so I’m not that worried.

I intend on getting reversible pumps and completely redoing the system, but one step at a time. I had 350lb bags in each rear locker and 400-450 in the center locker, I just ordered the dual 910lb bags from wakeshapers for the rear as well as the reinforcing bars for the engine divider. Might stick those 350’s up front for temporary.


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[Turbinesurgeon]

Actually those fuses under the dash are for the drain pumps and the sprinkler valves. 3amp is for the sprinkler and the 10amp are for the drain pumps. The main fill pump has a resetable circuit breaker located right next to the fill/drain switches. I believe it’s 25amps. Your circuit is there and not at the fuse panel so I’m not sure you changed anything. I’m thinking like others mentioned that you have a ground issue.


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[Alexander Bowen]

Actually those fuses under the dash are for the drain pumps and the sprinkler valves. 3amp is for the sprinkler and the 10amp are for the drain pumps. The main fill pump has a resetable circuit breaker located right next to the fill/drain switches. I believe it’s 25amps. Your circuit is there and not at the fuse panel so I’m not sure you changed anything. I’m thinking like others mentioned that you have a ground issue.


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Hmmm I will look again to be sure, but I do think I changed something, because it used to be, even with the key out of the ignition, you could still turn the pumps (both fill and empty) on and off, now it only works when the key is in the run position. But that makes sense about the 10 amp drain fuses, I will look for a 25 amp circuit.


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[Turbinesurgeon]

That is normal to run the pumps with the key off. Just like the stereo. I wouldn’t want my pumps running on the ignition because the hour meter runs with the ignition on.


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[Alexander Bowen]

That is normal to run the pumps with the key off. Just like the stereo. I wouldn’t want my pumps running on the ignition because the hour meter runs with the ignition on.


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Well what I mean by that is I only ever fill the tanks when the boat engine is on, most of the time idling while I go to park the trailer and the better half waits for me to come down the dock, so I’m okay with them only running when the boat is on. I don’t want a switch accidentally getting pushed and the motors running dry and running the battery down while I’m trailering the boat, so I consider it an improvement (the fill motor is actually very quiet). I will look again, but I didn’t see a fuse or a breaker near the fill switches though

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[Alexander Bowen]

I have looked and the ballast system has its own distinct grounding wire different than the ignition system and it’s tight and doesn’t seem to have any issues, actually now the ballast system is completely separate from touching the ignition system on both positive and negative side, except they both touch the positive bus and negative bus coming from the battery of course.


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[Turbinesurgeon]

That’s interesting. My 06 with gravity games has three switches and a circuit breaker on the panel. I assumed they were all like that. That’s what I get for assuming.


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[Alexander Bowen]

That’s interesting. My 06 with gravity games has three switches and a circuit breaker on the panel. I assumed they were all like that. That’s what I get for assuming.


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Yeah I think they skimped out on adding the last valve, it does have 3 tanks, but it kinda fills them all weirdly, combines two of them into one zone. Honestly if it had manual valves it would be so much easier because the electric ones don’t close all the way and so you basically get one bag filling slowly and the other bursting at the seams, kinda stupid.

I’m going to get the reversible pumps and my ultimate goals is to have 4 switches: front, middle, and left/right rear.


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[Turbinesurgeon]

Yeah I think they skimped out on adding the last valve, it does have 3 tanks, but it kinda fills them all weirdly, combines two of them into one zone. Honestly if it had manual valves it would be so much easier because the electric ones don’t close all the way and so you basically get one bag filling slowly and the other bursting at the seams, kinda stupid.

I’m going to get the reversible pumps and my ultimate goals is to have 4 switches: front, middle, and left/right rear.


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I got rid of that set up and went with the aerator pump set up. I like it and it wasn’t all that expensive. You can see my post in the modification forum.


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[VA LSV]

Is your ballast switch on the dash connected to anything? My 05 came with center ballast only which was controlled from the switch on the dash. I ordered parts from Skiers to add factory Gravity 3. It came with 3 rocker switches and a fuse/relay board that provides power to the fill pump when any of the fill switches are on. My switch on the dash isn't connected to anything now.
Also in your pic of the circuit board under the dash the power feed wire with the ring lug is not secured with a nut.

[Alexander Bowen]

Well I actually took the boat out on the weekend with the re-wire and it filled perfectly without shutting down, it filled very quickly, and empties very quickly, faster then before, so maybe it was getting enough juice? I saw my battery is a 24v battery, I hope that there isn’t some sort of wrong voltage and that’s why it was hooked up weird, I need to test to see how many volts the positive bus has, and how many the motor is supposed to add.

In answer to your question about the dash ballast button, yes it’s hooked up, but I don’t think it does anything, I’ve flipped it before and nothing happens


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[Stazi]

There’s NO WAY your battery is 24V. Not a chance. The electronics on Moombas are made to run on 12V, period.

How on earth did you come up with that idea?

Post pics....I need to see this!


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[Alexander Bowen]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191001/211520b33193e03bb4c0adfcffeca0f5.jpg

Nvm, 24dc has to be the part number not the voltage...


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[Stazi]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191001/211520b33193e03bb4c0adfcffeca0f5.jpg

Nvm, 24dc has to be the part number not the voltage...


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LOL yeah, that’s the battery “size”.


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[Turbinesurgeon]

You can wire the batteries in series and then you’d essentially have one 24V battery but everything would be fried when you turned it on.


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[VA LSV]

You should move the ring lug from the large battery post clamps to the threaded battery posts for a much more secure connection. Your Neg connection looks to be a little loose.

[Alexander Bowen]

You should move the ring lug from the large battery post clamps to the threaded battery posts for a much more secure connection. Your Neg connection looks to be a little loose.

Good point, that makes sense, I will check it.

So I need some help with some math, I guess I need to figure out how many amps 4 reversible pumps will draw on start up and continuously running, as well as figure out amp draw of the boat engine running, and then figure out how well my alternator is running, or do you have to upgrade alternator when you are only going to be running the pumps for 5 mins to fill tanks and have them off the rest of the time?


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[VA LSV]

Shouldn't need to upgrade alternator. Most people are sitting with the motor off getting gear ready while ballast finishes filling. Use FLA rating on the pump motors to size wiring and fuses.