2019 Supra SL450 having issues getting to surfing speed

[boisebruin]

I am having issues getting up to surfing speed. 2019 Supra SL 450 with ACME 15x11, 2937 prop running at 5000 ft elevation. Full stock ballast with 500 lbs in each rear locker, 200 lbs of lead mid ship with 6 adults in the boat. zero off set at 11.3 mph and can't get to speed. Funny thing is that it won't go over 3600 rpms and I know the boat can rev higher than that. It doesn't matter if I have autowake on or off. Any suggestions?

[Ryann]

Make sure auto launch is on. And set your crossover point higher, say 90%.

The 2019 SL is a heavy boat and you probably need to dump the extra weight when running a big crew. My 2018 SL 400 would run huge groups of people with 500 lb lead and full bag of fuel no problem. My 2019 MUST be heavier because the same lead with no gas in tanks has a harder time getting and holding surf speeds.

I’m working through the same issue you’re describing. I’m still learning the new boat and will check back to see if you find something that works.

[padge]

Put that extra midship lead in the bow. Would help some


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[larry_arizona]

Would be curious if your launch system is on and if it is, is it calibrated.

You can adjust it to stay deployed longer until you get it on plane.

Ryann’s suggestion of taking the crossover to 90% is what I would try. I believe factory setting is 75%.

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[Matt0520]

I would definitely check autolaunch. For my boat (with the base motor + OJ950) surf speed is never an issue. Even with water ballast, lead, and a crew of over 10.

The issue for me has always been getting on plane (happens usually at ~13.5+) for wakeboarding when we have a big crew and lots of ballast.

[boisebruin]

Make sure auto launch is on. And set your crossover point higher, say 90%.

The 2019 SL is a heavy boat and you probably need to dump the extra weight when running a big crew. My 2018 SL 400 would run huge groups of people with 500 lb lead and full bag of fuel no problem. My 2019 MUST be heavier because the same lead with no gas in tanks has a harder time getting and holding surf speeds.

I’m working through the same issue you’re describing. I’m still learning the new boat and will check back to see if you find something that works.

The funny thing is that if I turn off the "Zero Off' cruise control and manually adjust the throttle it has no problems getting to speed. It seems like there is an rpm limit set at 3600 when I use Zero Off for some reason. I even tried decreasing my set speed to 10 and then trying to speed up the set speed after it locks in but won't go over 3600 rpms to get the boat to speed. I know that there is plenty more rpms on that engine. Now I've also had the boat hesitate at full throttle with no ballast at all and only 2 people in the boat. As soon as it hits around 4100 rpms it sputters and the rpm drops.

[larry_arizona]

The funny thing is that if I turn off the "Zero Off' cruise control and manually adjust the throttle it has no problems getting to speed. It seems like there is an rpm limit set at 3600 when I use Zero Off for some reason. I even tried decreasing my set speed to 10 and then trying to speed up the set speed after it locks in but won't go over 3600 rpms to get the boat to speed. I know that there is plenty more rpms on that engine. Now I've also had the boat hesitate at full throttle with no ballast at all and only 2 people in the boat. As soon as it hits around 4100 rpms it sputters and the rpm drops.

Did you increase your crossover %?

Sounds like you are hitting the crossover of 75% before you hit on plane and then zero off is trying to limit your speed/rpm


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[Ryann]

The funny thing is that if I turn off the "Zero Off' cruise control and manually adjust the throttle it has no problems getting to speed. It seems like there is an rpm limit set at 3600 when I use Zero Off for some reason. I even tried decreasing my set speed to 10 and then trying to speed up the set speed after it locks in but won't go over 3600 rpms to get the boat to speed. I know that there is plenty more rpms on that engine. Now I've also had the boat hesitate at full throttle with no ballast at all and only 2 people in the boat. As soon as it hits around 4100 rpms it sputters and the rpm drops.



That sounds oddly familiar. The rpm on mine was limited to about 3600 as well surfing. Now I didn’t try it with the cruise control off. My wife was complaining about it feeling way less powerful than our 2018 and that at times it wouldn’t get up to or stay at 11.4 mph surfing. Double checked all settings. I’ll stay tuned and run the boat again next weekend. Maybe there’s a secret break in rpm limit we don’t know about. Not sure about this one.

[boisebruin]

Did you increase your crossover %?

Sounds like you are hitting the crossover of 75% before you hit on plane and then zero off is trying to limit your speed/rpm


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I have not tried that yet. I will give it a go when I'm back out this weekend.

[boisebruin]

That sounds oddly familiar. The rpm on mine was limited to about 3600 as well surfing. Now I didn’t try it with the cruise control off. My wife was complaining about it feeling way less powerful than our 2018 and that at times it wouldn’t get up to or stay at 11.4 mph surfing. Double checked all settings. I’ll stay tuned and run the boat again next weekend. Maybe there’s a secret break in rpm limit we don’t know about. Not sure about this one.

Ryan,

The tech came up and installed a new prop. We are at 5000' elevation and have the 450. I think we had the 15x11.5 prop and he switched it out to a 16x13 prop. He said that the Zero Off will limit the rpms when it senses that the engine is working at max and not go above it. Putting in a more aggressive prop made it seem like the engine was getting less stress to the Zero Off sensors. I also discovered with a larger crew that if you accelerate early on then it will get to surfing speed easier.

Zac at Supra wrote this to me as well:

Yes Zero off has parameters that “limit” the engine and how hard it pushes the engine, it is strange that this is happening on your boat because we haven’t seen this on other stock boats. We can occasionally extremely overload our boats and get to do this but I wouldn’t say your boat is that overloaded. That is why I believe a new prop will solve most of this.

Another problem solving step that you could do to help us get more information is to unplug the gps puck that is in front of the starboard side windshield. If you are in a large canyon or not receiving GPS signal then the cruise system is relying on paddlewheel cruise which runs through a different software. So if you could unplug the gps in front of the windshield and the boat does the same thing it would lead me to believe the problem lies elsewhere, but If you unplug the gps and the problem goes away then there is something in the zero off logic that is limiting the engine.

Also I wanted some clarification on the boat going from 4000 rpms to <1000 rpm situation. That sounds extremely strange to me and seems like it needs to be addressed. I would say you need to take the boat into your dealer and get them to hook up diacom and see if any codes have popped up.

Matt suggested the following after above comments:

To add to this, another thought I had was check the GPS satellite status.

I have been on a boat where if you take off and the GPS has NOT locked in, then the boat can be in paddlewheel mode. The boat will accelerate and might be going a high rpm. BUT, when GPS locks in, it can take a second and the engine can drastically reduce rpm because it thinks it needs to reduce rpm to reduce speed. Again, it seems to happen the most drastic as soon as GPS locks in, but if the boat does this, then returns to correct speed, it could also be a sign of poor GPS signal, or maybe an issue with the GPS puck.

As Zac said, taking that out of the equation can tell us quite a bit.

[Broke Pilot]

Well that’s interesting to hear that the gps can limit power. When I switched props on my SA400 I thought it was odd that the motor wasn’t spinning to a higher rpm when pulling up a surfer under full load. Now I wanna do it with the zero off ‘off’ and see if it makes any difference...

[Ryann]

I wonder if zero off limits rpm so that it limits prop slippage. You could drop the hammer and let the cruise control do everything.

[Broke Pilot]

That’s generally what I do. I always have it on with a set speed and just let it eat.

[larry_arizona]

That’s generally what I do. I always have it on with a set speed and just let it eat.

Ditto



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[KnoxMojo]

Anyone running full ballast for wakeboarding? Mine will launch then the auto-launch kicks in, but only for a 2 seconds. It will go in and out of auto-launch but never get to speed, just bounces the nose up and down. I have calibrated the inclometer and set the crossover point to deploy until 90% of set speed. It will not get up to speed until I dump about a quarter of the weight out. And like a couple of y'all, it only pulls at around 3600 rpm until it gets on plain then will climb higher. It has to be something in the programming.

[larry_arizona]

My guess is the PCM/Zero off doesn’t like prop slip.

Knox, what prop are you running?


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[KnoxMojo]

I've ran several, all the same issue. Right now, the OJ 951, have also had in a 945 and 950... currently looking to borrow an ACME 15x12.5 to try out..I just hate running high rpms getting around the lake.

[Prospersigman]

Anyone running full ballast for wakeboarding? Mine will launch then the auto-launch kicks in, but only for a 2 seconds. It will go in and out of auto-launch but never get to speed, just bounces the nose up and down. I have calibrated the inclometer and set the crossover point to deploy until 90% of set speed. It will not get up to speed until I dump about a quarter of the weight out. And like a couple of y'all, it only pulls at around 3600 rpm until it gets on plain then will climb higher. It has to be something in the programming.

From my experience having driven and owned the 400, the 450 and currently own the 550 (all boats heavily weighted with a large crew) the 400 struggled to get on plane in wakeboard advanced mode at 100% all the way around. I would have to have 4 adults in the bow and dump weight to get on plane. With the 450 and 550 that is not a concern it gets on plane much easier. I've made this statement before but typically hear that the 400 is plenty, but that was not my experience.

[KnoxMojo]

That's what I'm beginning to think. The 400 in our Mojo was more than enough, but it weighed 1000 pounds less, and fully loaded was about 1500 pounds or so less overall than the SA.. but the Mojo only had the center plate and still got up. The SA with 3 tab launch doesn't even come close.

[z28ke]

My 400 was struggling a bit getting to surf speed yesterday until I moved a few extra bags of lead to the bow. The engine sounded much louder than normal and was running a couple hundred rpm higher until I moved the weight. It was also 96+ degrees out so that didn’t help.

[larry_arizona]

Can you re-prop to get it to plane? I would gladly give up top speed for more grunt.

I am running 2775 (15x12.5) and yet to have an issue towing full ballast surfing and have only towed 50% ballast with 3 peeps plus rider wakeboarding.

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[KnoxMojo]

Never have a problem getting to surf speed with any prop I've tried. Even with 10 adults in the boat. It's full ballast wakeboarding. The 15x13 did the same thing. It's a programming issue, not a prop issue I'm fairly certain.

[larry_arizona]

Based on what I just witnessed riding in the pro wake tour tow boat, full ballast, 500# lead midship, 7 crew equally distributed, that wake is HUGE!!!!

I doubt most would ride it.


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[KnoxMojo]

Based on what I just witnessed riding in the pro wake tour tow boat, full ballast, 500# lead midship, 7 crew equally distributed, that wake is HUGE!!!!

I doubt most would ride it.


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We'd ride it, but not many, lol.. maybe I must need the new 460 and 1.76-1.. Gabbana

[Prospersigman]

We'd ride it, but not many, lol.. maybe I must need the new 460 and 1.76-1.. Gabbana

Along with the cool tech vinyl, new screens, walk-through transom, RGB lighting and fender pro system...YES!!

[larry_arizona]

We'd ride it, but not many, lol.. maybe I must need the new 460 and 1.76-1.. Gabbana

Just wait for 2020.....let’s just say you won’t need the 460 lol.


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[KnoxMojo]

Until then, I'll either figure it out or dial it back

[Prospersigman]

Just wait for 2020.....let’s just say you won’t need the 460 lol.


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Somebody get the scoop on a new 2.1 tranny reduction?

[dakota4ce]

Somebody get the scoop on a new 2.1 tranny reduction?

Unless you’re looking at a TIGE I don’t think you’re going to see that. Maybe I’m wrong?


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[larry_arizona]

When does to low a gear ratio become an issue?

1.5, 1.76, 2

At some point, the prop diameter requires the shaft angle to increase and the prop no longer can be square to the plane of the water surface.

Do the tige boats max out at 30mph?


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[Shoebox]

When does to low a gear ratio become an issue?

1.5, 1.76, 2

At some point, the prop diameter requires the shaft angle to increase and the prop no longer can be square to the plane of the water surface.

Do the tige boats max out at 30mph?


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkDepends where the engine/v-drive is mounted. Moving them forward can reduce the required shaft angle.

[larry_arizona]

Depends where the engine/v-drive is mounted. Moving them forward can reduce the required shaft angle.

But takes away cabin space.

Is tige killing it with a 2:1 versus a 1:76?


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[Shoebox]

But takes away cabin space.

Is tige killing it with a 2:1 versus a 1:76?


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkTrue. Have you seen the cabin space in some of the new boats? A Supreme ZS232, 23 ft boat, has barely more cabin space than my 20.5 ft Mondo. Look how far forward the engine cover is. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190717/8a2ed66460cefd5f0a46f8aea170ab07.jpg

[larry_arizona]

And that is a huge negative


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[Shoebox]

And that is a huge negative


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkYep, that's one reason I'd never consider that boat. $110k, and way less space than a similarly priced Makai.

[Prospersigman]

Then when the prop diameter get that large you run the potential for drive shafts to shear off like the G23s had issues with there for a while.

I think the sweet spot is 1.76

[dakota4ce]

When does to low a gear ratio become an issue?

1.5, 1.76, 2

At some point, the prop diameter requires the shaft angle to increase and the prop no longer can be square to the plane of the water surface.

Do the tige boats max out at 30mph?


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They run beautifully.


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[dakota4ce]

Then when the prop diameter get that large you run the potential for drive shafts to shear off like the G23s had issues with there for a while.

I think the sweet spot is 1.76

But then they’ve increased prop shaft diameter to take care of this. Granted they did learn the hard way, but it’s fixed. For the most part.


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[Buchholz.cole]

I am having issues getting up to surfing speed. 2019 Supra SL 450 with ACME 15x11, 2937 prop running at 5000 ft elevation. Full stock ballast with 500 lbs in each rear locker, 200 lbs of lead mid ship with 6 adults in the boat. zero off set at 11.3 mph and can't get to speed. Funny thing is that it won't go over 3600 rpms and I know the boat can rev higher than that. It doesn't matter if I have autowake on or off. Any suggestions?

I had the same problem. I had full ballast with 200 in each locker with 100 mid ship and 100 front with 6 people in the boat and it wouldn’t go over 10.4 at 3600 rpm. All I did was turn it off and on and it acted normal again.

[Isaguel]

I had the same problem. I had full ballast with 200 in each locker with 100 mid ship and 100 front with 6 people in the boat and it wouldn’t go over 10.4 at 3600 rpm. All I did was turn it off and on and it acted normal again.

My supra does the same thing. What I have found is that if there's too much weight distributed towards the back, the boat will not go past 11.4 mph, I will then have a couple passengers sit in the bow and it speeds up to 12 as set. I think it has to do with weight, and the boats ability to get on plane. Something with the inclinometer the boat uses and the software that controls the takeoff to get it to plane. It uses the plates in rear all deployed simultaneously to get it on plane, so I wonder if having too much weight towards the back messes it up somehow, the software sets a speed to get the boat out and to level, if it cannot get the boat level despite speed of 11.4 in my case, I wonder if it sets to that speed and waiting for the sensors to show leveling while its not happening because too much stern weight. Anyway, its my theory and I'm sticking to it.
Anyone else experiencing this?

[larry_arizona]

You can adjust the “launch” system set points. Specifically your crossover speed where your plates transition from launch mode to surf mode.

But too much stern weight and not enough bow weight is your obstacle.


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[SONIC]

It's my understanding that the tabs are not used for launch in surf mode?
if you look here in the settings it says launch is only used when swell surf is off.
I think these settings only effect the center plate.

https://forum.moomba.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=28998&d=1599658797


https://forum.moomba.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=28999&d=1599659014

I really don't like launch mode without ballast it makes it jerk when it retracts the tabs so i toggle it on when I have full ballast and need to get on plane, but sometimes it doesn't respond and I have to keep trying until they finally deploy. Really annoying. Can't figure out what I'm missing.

[NewbFam5]

My supra does the same thing. What I have found is that if there's too much weight distributed towards the back, the boat will not go past 11.4 mph, I will then have a couple passengers sit in the bow and it speeds up to 12 as set. I think it has to do with weight, and the boats ability to get on plane. Something with the inclinometer the boat uses and the software that controls the takeoff to get it to plane. It uses the plates in rear all deployed simultaneously to get it on plane, so I wonder if having too much weight towards the back messes it up somehow, the software sets a speed to get the boat out and to level, if it cannot get the boat level despite speed of 11.4 in my case, I wonder if it sets to that speed and waiting for the sensors to show leveling while its not happening because too much stern weight. Anyway, its my theory and I'm sticking to it.
Anyone else experiencing this?

Haven't experienced that but there are definitely some SW glitches that have come up. I was in surf left at 11.4, shut completely down including turning the battery off so the kids could swim. Started back up and was in surf left and the system glitched. My wife was pulling me at 17.4 with a wake board wake but ballasts loaded for surf. Had to shut completely down and reboot.

We haven't had any issues with the 450 getting up on plane yet.

[Shoebox]

My only real glitch is using the touchscreen to change volume or speed, sometimes it runs away from me.