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MJHSupra
03-10-2019, 06:54 PM
Anyone checkout the new Polar Bear video from Oct 2018?

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL8167B2FD1A12D9D8

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dakota4ce
03-10-2019, 07:04 PM
I have indeed watched.


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LAwake
03-10-2019, 07:06 PM
I watched it as well.

dakota4ce
03-10-2019, 07:33 PM
"Total displacement" makes me think. It's more complex than simply weight when it comes to producing a surf wave, as hull size and surface area make it harder or easier to sink a hull deeply at a given weight.....and its very much about how deeply the hull sinks into the water.

I.e. a big flat hull is going to achieve a more shallow depth than a short deepV hull at the same or similar overall weight. And surf wave is going to be the roughly inverse amplitude of the hull moving water aside as it plows through the water. Every action produces an equal and opposite reaction......KINDA.

Not that Robert draws any conclusions from presenting these displacement numbers, I just hesitate to relate them to actual results/waves with much meaning.

If that makes sense. Not really a critique of anything, just a deep thought on surf waves, weights and wave sizes.....well not that deep, but whatever.

dakota4ce
03-10-2019, 07:41 PM
Example: I know the Fi25 was really good. But it also was 1200# heavier than anything else, and has a deepV hull shape that lends itself to deep sinking. They even had a hydrolock issue related to this at one point. They sink like mothers!

So it stands to reason that boat will do well.

Meanwhile an equal sized boat with a much flatter hull (Makai) is running a lot less weight and is harder to sink. Thus producing a less impressive wave.
The outcomes are going to reflect this discrepancy.

Flatter hulls will need more weight at a given size than a deepV to make the same amplitude wave.

So why is not everyone deepV if its more "bang for the pound?" (sounds dirty but isn't?) Well, I suppose its because there are tradeoffs in stability, the way the interior space ends up, wakeboard performance, etc....so each manufacturer chooses the shape according to their desired outcomes.

More deep and potentially completely useless thoughts.

Now to make chicken in the InstantPot.

haknslash
03-10-2019, 07:45 PM
I watched it as well. Glad to see they were able to recover the footage. I feel bad for his community losing everything in the fire.

jmvotto
03-11-2019, 09:26 AM
Good surf video. Pretty worthless analysis overall

Missing a few if not many of the best boats out there too

Sems like a friend surf party. Which is cool. But reallly not helpful.

jcredible
03-11-2019, 10:51 AM
I was out there this year, and my 2 cents on my personal favourite waves were...everyone on the boat had differing opinions though:

1) Supra SL - This wave was not the biggest in amplitude...but it had such consistent push from front to back...the Wake9 family has it dialed as well!
2) Centurion FI-25 - This wave was HUGE...it was Hunter Clement's boat and he was driving...so it had a LOT of weight....so much room as well.
3) MB B52 - This wave was dialed and steep...seemed to lack the customizability of some of the other waves...but it was pretty awesome and the stock setup comes with a LOT of weight.

4) G23 - Had never ridden behind a G...but I really liked it...was a great wave with very consistent push
.
5) X23 - This boat is really nicely finished inside with the CoolTech Vinyl. The Mastercraft surf system appears to have a lot of customization to the wave.
6) Makai - The length on the wave was pretty long...I felt like it was lacking push though at the end of the wave...I think given it was so new they were still getting some of the kinks out of the wave. One of the drivers(Brandon) didn't seem to have any problems catching some pretty awesome air off the wake though ;) I think with a little bit more tinkering...the wave could be pretty awesome from what I seen...the boat is massive!

7) Heyday - This boat with the stock ballast and about 600 lbs of lead in the bow was pretty awesome. It lacked any form of surf system outside of the suckgate...but it surprised everyone with how good the wave was. I would say with some plug and play bags to add an additional 1000ish pounds of weight this thing could be really good.

From what I heard, they had a Max out in 2017 and it was one of the top waves running stock ballasts with 1000 lbs of lead midship under the tower.

dakota4ce
03-11-2019, 12:33 PM
I was out there this year, and my 2 cents on my personal favourite waves were...everyone on the boat had differing opinions though:

1) Supra SL - This wave was not the biggest in amplitude...but it had such consistent push from front to back...the Wake9 family has it dialed as well!
2) Centurion FI-25 - This wave was HUGE...it was Hunter Clement's boat and he was driving...so it had a LOT of weight....so much room as well.
3) MB B52 - This wave was dialed and steep...seemed to lack the customizability of some of the other waves...but it was pretty awesome and the stock setup comes with a LOT of weight.

4) G23 - Had never ridden behind a G...but I really liked it...was a great wave with very consistent push
.
5) X23 - This boat is really nicely finished inside with the CoolTech Vinyl. The Mastercraft surf system appears to have a lot of customization to the wave.
6) Makai - The length on the wave was pretty long...I felt like it was lacking push though at the end of the wave...I think given it was so new they were still getting some of the kinks out of the wave. One of the drivers(Brandon) didn't seem to have any problems catching some pretty awesome air off the wake though ;) I think with a little bit more tinkering...the wave could be pretty awesome from what I seen...the boat is massive!

7) Heyday - This boat with the stock ballast and about 600 lbs of lead in the bow was pretty awesome. It lacked any form of surf system outside of the suckgate...but it surprised everyone with how good the wave was. I would say with some plug and play bags to add an additional 1000ish pounds of weight this thing could be really good.

From what I heard, they had a Max out in 2017 and it was one of the top waves running stock ballasts with 1000 lbs of lead midship under the tower.

Good summary. The Makai was stock +1000 of lead, which is not nearly enough. The Centurion had 1200# lbs more than that. So all that makes sense.

The SL has one arm tied behind its back. Only 700 in lead and a new driver just running basic Autowake profile.

You find any new love affairs with surf boards?


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jmvotto
03-11-2019, 12:59 PM
Good summary. The Makai was stock +1000 of lead, which is not nearly enough. The Centurion had 1200# lbs more than that. So all that makes sense.

The SL has one arm tied behind its back. Only 700 in lead and a new driver just running basic Autowake profile.

You find any new love affairs with surf boards?



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Right ,where are the board reviews?

jmvotto
03-11-2019, 01:31 PM
also, not trying to be a Debbie downer , but if a mfg. cant throw a killer wave with factory ballast and 1000 lb of lead , then the hull and surf system should be redesigned. I have not seen so much lead entered into a surf equation as this Polar bear event

dakota4ce
03-11-2019, 02:26 PM
also, not trying to be a Debbie downer , but if a mfg. cant throw a killer wave with factory ballast and 1000 lb of lead , then the hull and surf system should be redesigned. I have not seen so much lead entered into a surf equation as this Polar bear event

Yeah, well itís a trade off between size and interior space available. So....thereís really no other way to slice it.

That heavy ass Fi has poor storage. A real downer for an owner that wants storage and a ďdecentĒ surf wave. That owner would love a Makai for opposite reasons.

You can alter a Makai to take on a lot more water like the Fi if you want to....all the storage goes away though.

Hence people opt for lead.

Itís really not a complex decision tree. You want space or weight? Canít have both.

If you want the boss wave, it becomes weight. Polar bear is supposed to be a boss wave event.

The hull and surf system are fine. Theyíre not nearly as vital as you think. Itís -Mostly- about weight.


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muehlcj
03-11-2019, 02:42 PM
Yeah, well it’s a trade off between size and interior space available. So....there’s really no other way to slice it.

That heavy ass Fi has poor storage. A real downer for an owner that wants storage and a “decent” surf wave. That owner would love a Makai for opposite reasons.

You can alter a Makai to take on a lot more water like the Fi if you want to....all the storage goes away though.

Hence people opt for lead.

It’s really not a complex decision tree. You want space or weight? Can’t have both.

If you want the boss wave, it becomes weight. Polar bear is supposed to be a boss wave event.

The hull and surf system are fine. They’re not nearly as vital as you think. It’s -Mostly- about weight.


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I'm with JMV - if you add 1000lbs to a any manufactures factory system it should be throwing a wave that's as good or better then any of us can surf. If not they should revisit the factory system, hull, surf system - something.

jmvotto
03-11-2019, 02:58 PM
Yeah, well it’s a trade off between size and interior space available. So....there’s really no other way to slice it.

It’s really not a complex decision tree. You want space or weight? Can’t have both.

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One MFG that was noticeably missing does both , BOSS waves and plenty of storage...
just saying .....

dakota4ce
03-11-2019, 03:06 PM
I'm with JMV - if you add 1000lbs to a any manufactures factory system it should be throwing a wave that's as good or better then any of us can surf. If not they should revisit the factory system, hull, surf system - something.

Yeah well, thatís easy to say. And impractical if youíre making business decisions. They could add more water to the factory system and fill all your compartments? But half of the people donít want that. So which part of the buyer population do you alienate?

I personally donít mind adding weight to the boat because surf is my top priority. If storage was, I wouldnít add a thing.

Furthermore there are capacity regulations that they need to dance around as well.


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dakota4ce
03-11-2019, 03:07 PM
One MFG that was noticeably missing does both , BOSS waves and plenty of storage...
just saying .....

Do tell? Tige?


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dakota4ce
03-11-2019, 03:08 PM
One MFG that was noticeably missing does both , BOSS waves and plenty of storage...
just saying .....

Malibu?


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jmvotto
03-11-2019, 03:25 PM
Malibu?


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Dakota winner winner chicken dinner.... tige too. but Robert wouldn't let "his best surf boat" over the last 5 of 7 years near his event since he signed with SC 2 yrs ago , now tige is Sh$t

dakota4ce
03-11-2019, 03:30 PM
Dakota winner winner chicken dinner.... tige too. but Robert wouldn't let "his best surf boat" over the last 5 of 7 years near his event since he signed with SC 2 yrs ago , now tige is Sh$t

Oh boy. Which Malibu has boss waves and huge storage? And the secrets to circumventing the laws of physics....


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dakota4ce
03-11-2019, 03:31 PM
Dakota winner winner chicken dinner.... tige too. but Robert wouldn't let "his best surf boat" over the last 5 of 7 years near his event since he signed with SC 2 yrs ago , now tige is Sh$t

By the way I never once have heard him say that Tige is sh!t.....has he?


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dakota4ce
03-11-2019, 03:50 PM
By the way I never once have heard him say that Tige is sh!t.....has he?


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Also: I have it on good faith that they did indeed desire for a Tige to be present at this yearís event but corporate Tige did not want to do it. Thereís possibly a rift there, and a concern that it may not be entirely objective? Thatís speculation on my part.

I personally donít think that Robert rolls that way.

Have no clue why Malibu is not there.


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jmvotto
03-11-2019, 03:59 PM
True. Just an observation on the missing and the boats that were there .
Fi vs the Ri, sl vs the Se , x23 vs the xstar or x24

dakota4ce
03-11-2019, 04:03 PM
True. Just an observation on the missing and the boats that were there .
Fi vs the Ri, sl vs the Se , x23 vs the xstar or x24

I would say thereís really not much in it for the boat manufacturers. Or the dealers that donate the boats. Therefore probably not high on the list of ways to spend time?

Just guessing again. Now that all manufacturers have incredible boats there isnít really much to learn. Other than having a good time and surfing.


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muehlcj
03-11-2019, 04:12 PM
Yeah well, thatís easy to say. And impractical if youíre making business decisions. They could add more water to the factory system and fill all your compartments? But half of the people donít want that. So which part of the buyer population do you alienate?

I personally donít mind adding weight to the boat because surf is my top priority. If storage was, I wouldnít add a thing.

Furthermore there are capacity regulations that they need to dance around as well.


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There are a couple manufactures that seem to throw top 3 waves with factory ballast and less the 1000lbs of lead. No need for 3k more water.

I just rode the new '19 SE with factory only - If you need to add more then 1000 lbs to that then you should spend more time practicing.

jmvotto
03-11-2019, 04:17 PM
I would say there’s really not much in it for the boat manufacturers. Or the dealers that donate the boats. Therefore probably not high on the list of ways to spend time?

Just guessing again. Now that all manufacturers have incredible boats there isn’t really much to learn. Other than having a good time and surfing.


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My conclusion all along , not a premier surf event. Just a really good time surfing and partying with your buddys and their boats boards and who ever else wants to pay to play. Sounds like a blast

dakota4ce
03-11-2019, 04:19 PM
There are a couple manufactures that seem to throw top 3 waves with factory ballast and less the 1000lbs of lead. No need for 3k more water.

I just rode the new '19 SE with factory only - If you need to add more then 1000 lbs to that then you should spend more time practicing.

It depends on what factory ballast is! Thatís the point.

What are your top 3 on factory ballast?

I also have quite a bit of time in the new SE. Iím sure factory ballast is fine, but it really has nothing to do with your skill level. Bigger waves- longer waves- more powerful waves- are always more fun. Always.

In factóyou should ride the new SE with 650s in the rear lockers and 1000 pounds of lead in the nose. Oh boy. Now thatís some fun!


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dakota4ce
03-11-2019, 04:38 PM
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190311/e05cca1afdabb07ea25c27068ec761d2.jpg

Good times! [emoji102]


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schwan
03-11-2019, 04:56 PM
I'm almost certain they planned to have an axis at the event, but maybe something happened where it didn't line up? Or more likely I'm just miss remembering things...

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dakota4ce
03-11-2019, 05:07 PM
I'm almost certain they planned to have an axis at the event, but maybe something happened where it didn't line up? Or more likely I'm just miss remembering things...

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They had a couple late back outsóoh so I heard. Thatís what generated the Tige info I was referencing I think...


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elevatedconcept
03-11-2019, 05:17 PM
Tige was indeed almost in the event. It was just too last minute to arrange logistics to get a boat of mine down there.

In regard to the SE....

I have one. Boat is awesome with 1k lbs of lead but its really really awesome with 650s in the rear and that 1k of lead midship/bow. Some might say why? I say why not? You direct me to the guy that prefers less length, less height and a softer wave, I want to shake his hand.

Its definitely a trade off when talking about why certain MFG use more weight then others. The short answer (given I carry competing brands) is simple. It really is about the trade offs and what a said MFG thinks its customer base values more.

While you make think that one boat has it all, I can assure you it does not. I heard malibu mentioned as a boat that might fit that bill. Ill play devils advocate here.... Ill use the LSV as a comp. Nice nice boat, has storage although it needs rear pnp to really surf good... but it only all works if you use the wedge. Want to know what that wedge is simulating? You guessed it, weight. Sure it frees up some storage room but guess what? the tradeoff here is a fuel burn from that drag that is in the neighborhood of 14-17 GPH. I'll use lead instead.

Back to the SE. To be honest we use the extra weight because we like to run faster. The extra weight does not transform it into a different animal at face value but what it does do is NOT change the shape and height when you start to introduce big speed into the equation which in itself induces lift. We weight it heavy to negate that which allows us to run the boats in the 12-12.3 range for big time pros and even beginners. The wave when significantly heavier retains its shape but also is transformed into this concrete hard Loooooooong playground. The bonus is also that the deeper it is ran the more it is sending the delayed water out and away. You can run a heavier boat much more straight up then one that is lighter. Stock AW is around 4-5 degrees of lean. When we are heavy it needs maybe 1.5-2 degrees side to side max. Hit fill all and go. 6500 lbs, 12mph plus turning 3100 RPM sipping a measly 7gph with a blower.

Ill take that everyday and twice on sunday.

MJHSupra
03-11-2019, 06:28 PM
the last 5 of 7 years near his event since he signed with SC 2 yrs ago , now tige is Sh$t

Not sure about that. I watched one of his recent videos and when he mentioned Tige. Nothing was negative about it. He comment was ďgo try one outĒ

Now that he is with SC, not sure anyone would be expecting him push buyers to Tige anyone.


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dakota4ce
03-11-2019, 06:30 PM
Not sure about that. I watched one of his recent videos and when he mentioned Tige. Nothing was negative about it. He comment was ďgo try one outĒ

Now that he is with SC, not sure anyone would be expecting him push buyers to Tige anyone.


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Agree. Havenít heard any negative out of him.


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MJHSupra
03-11-2019, 06:33 PM
I would say thereís really not much in it for the boat manufacturers. Or the dealers that donate the boats. Therefore probably not high on the list of ways to spend time?


I was just telling someone this same thing. They will sell boats if they go or donít go.

But I sure wish some of the other big-boys were there.

And it would be a good time, this why the event sells out so fast.


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jmvotto
03-11-2019, 06:43 PM
I would love to ride your SE. all sacked and leaded out
But the title of the video is the best surf boats for 19 and i think they missed the mark by not including some of the best including the SE and putting in a MC that is discountinued

Eveyone has there preferences. But i would rather push a button for 1500 lbs than move it around the boat regardless of the GPH comparisons

elevatedconcept
03-11-2019, 07:01 PM
I would love to ride your SE. all sacked and leaded out
But the title of the video is the best surf boats for 19 and i think they missed the mark by not including some of the best including the SE and putting in a MC that is discountinued

Eveyone has there preferences. But i would rather push a button for 1500 lbs than move it around the boat regardless of the GPH comparisons

We dont move anything around :) the 1k stays in all the time, in the same spot.

You may not care about the GPH but I cant for the life of me see how a boat that burns an avg of double the fuel a trip is tolerable or accepted. Go to powell and boat for a week. My crew surfs for 6-8 hours a day.... that's around 48 gallons vs around 90 gallons. Thats 120 plus a day difference in fuel. Do this for 7 days and you can see where I am going.

Locally we surf 3 days a week, 4 hour at a time. You say regardless of fuel burn you would rather push a button. I say take a harder look at the numbers.

jmvotto
03-11-2019, 07:57 PM
Now its a gph issue ? maybe we should talk resale value if your worried about your bottom line

Your comments are misplaced
The main coments were about the PB18 missing the mark on the best surf boats out there . They missed


As a dealer i assume your running demos So running gas laps is important

Gas station is 1 mile from my lake house on the water .
so i would love to ride as much as you all do but family time and water time on our other boat is just as important to me on the lake .

dakota4ce
03-11-2019, 08:23 PM
Now waitóyou started this line of discussion with the Debbie Downer post. From there it has been an exploration of why manufacturers choose different areas of emphasis. I think mention of GPH is ok in the storage vs ballast vs other advantages discussion. Especially when you assert that Malibu ďhas it all.Ē

Maybe I missed your sentiment?

It bears examination that you offer Malibu as the holy grail. The truth: No bow storage. No locker storage. A wedge that sucks gas. And a wave, although EXCELLENT, is not ďsuperiorĒ to a similarly set up competitors 25í boat.

Point is: in the end, nobody has secrets. Nobody. I am not saying this is you, but being a brand homer is way out of style these days.

Your point about the event not being a collection of premier surf boats is very valid. The lineup is not quite on par with that title. SE would be good, a properly weighted SL would be good, a properly weighted Makai also belongs there. The Fi is as good as any Ri and thus belongs. The x24 would be nice, but x23 is no slouch. A zx5 would have been greatóthey tried but it didnít work. An A24, 24 MXZ, or 25 LSV would have been fun too.

All should be permitted and not scorned for adding weight to make the playing field level.


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MJHSupra
03-11-2019, 08:40 PM
I wonder what was up with no BU of any size?

The new X24 or XStar would also be cool.

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jmvotto
03-11-2019, 08:46 PM
Not sure about that. I watched one of his recent videos and when he mentioned Tige. Nothing was negative about it. He comment was ďgo try one outĒ

Now that he is with SC, not sure anyone would be expecting him push buyers to Tige anyone.


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I didnt say he was talkin sh$t about tige , but the years he repped them. Best surf boat out there , not included to the best wake surf boat event for 19 , easy to read between the lines . Its all in whos paying for the Kool aid

elevatedconcept
03-11-2019, 08:52 PM
Now its a gph issue ? maybe we should talk resale value if your worried about your bottom line

Your comments are misplaced
The main coments were about the PB18 missing the mark on the best surf boats out there . They missed


As a dealer i assume your running demos So running gas laps is important

Gas station is 1 mile from my lake house on the water .
so i would love to ride as much as you all do but family time and water time on our other boat is just as important to me on the lake .

My comments arent misplaced at all. My point was that its all a give and take and that no boat has it all. Its big picture. Resale? You have me there, dont know how that correlates or where you even are going with that but I digress.

You seem to really like Malibu and thats awesome, its why I used them as an example. FYI its a killer machine IMO.

You seemed to think that my 1k in lead + PNP is a lot so I explained to you the reasoning why . You said you would rather push a button then move weight around which I clarified in saying that we actually dont move weight, ever, at any time, since it originally went in the boat. Just was trying to get the details straight is all.

In your opinion you would rather push a bottom and drag a weighting device that simulates 1500lbs of weight at the expense of double the fuel... Instead of what? Adding some lead at the beginning? Running some PNP Bags?. To supra/moomba and most other MFG for that matter, the fuel burn is more important then needing to add 1k lbs of lead in the boat.

If you want to talk about on water time lets do it. I think on water time is exactly what supra and other MFG have as a top priority. How much time are malibu/ axis owners wasting having to get fuel once a day in their big boats and every half day in the smaller stuff? I guess its all about perspective. Even with living on a lake, I know how much time it takes to drop ballast, motor to the dock, get fuel and then go back out, re setup and start again.

"Also, not trying to be a Debbie downer , but if a mfg. cant throw a killer wave with factory ballast and 1000 lb of lead , then the hull and surf system should be redesigned. I have not seen so much lead entered into a surf equation as this Polar bear event"

My counter to that before and ill repeat is and I quote "Id rather run some lead then burn 15-17GPH with all things considered".

You say "If a mfg cant throw a killer wave with factory ballast and 1k lbs of lead then the hull design and surf system should be redesigned"

I say, if a mfg cant get a good wave without dropping a gas guzzling foil that simulates 1500lbs of downforce at the expense of 15 Gph then maybe it too should explore a hull design or ballast change.

All perspective right?

Thats really what I was after. Ill chalk it up to me doing a shitty explaining my thoughts.

elevatedconcept
03-11-2019, 08:55 PM
I didnt say he was talkin sh$t about tige , but the years he repped them. Best surf boat out there , not included to the best wake surf boat event for 19 , easy to read between the lines . Its all in whos paying for the Kool aid

We agree here- Him and Tige didnt have the most gracious of splits. I wouldnt expect him to go out of his way to hype them anymore. But I will say, he wanted one at the event bad. We just couldnt swing it in time. So is it really on him?

larry_arizona
03-11-2019, 09:10 PM
I had no idea he was Supra sponsored. Just enjoyed his videos

Pretty cool gig.

BTW, the popcorn [emoji897] is amazing and this thread delivers!!!


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jmvotto
03-11-2019, 09:28 PM
I had no idea he was Supra sponsored. Just enjoyed his videos

Pretty cool gig.

BTW, the popcorn [emoji897] is amazing and this thread delivers!!!


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We aim to please

dakota4ce
03-11-2019, 09:45 PM
I had no idea he was Supra sponsored. Just enjoyed his videos

Pretty cool gig.

BTW, the popcorn [emoji897] is amazing and this thread delivers!!!


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You betóalthough I would submit thereís not much heavy hitting here. Itís all stuff that comes up continually over and over. People are mistaken to think there is a magical silver bullet to making a big ass surf wave. Hull designs, surf systems.....theyíre cool, but unfortunately theyíre not THAT meaningful. 80% of the factors are non-manipulable laws of physics. The rest is frosting, convenience, style points. Hulls need to sink. The bigger the hull the more WEIGHT it needs to sink. A pound is a pound. Buoyancy is buoyancy. No way around this.

We can have a heavy hull, we can have a light hull, we can have lots of ballast or a medium amount, we can use a wedge....yadda yadda yadda but they all need to converge at roughly the same end point to perform comparatively.

The point about a surf boat shootout actually having all the heavy hitters is valid if it carries the ďbest surfboats of 2019Ē title. I get that. And agree!



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jmvotto
03-11-2019, 09:49 PM
FWIW. If our dealer didnt drop SC over issues i would be in an SL or SE , both my previous boats ran flawlessly.

That being said. I did not bring up malibu , some else did I just mentioned other top tier surf boats were missing from the event.

I think if your going to sell a 150 k boat and demo it with lead , its a tough sale at the boat show . “ you want a great wave , get 1k in lead toss in the bow and your good to go plus sign a check for 150k”

Ive been to lots of surf demos and festvals and the amount of lead on those boats just seam like overkill. The resale has about as much to do with the wave as GPH , thats why i brought it up . Has no business in the convesation and can be debated until we are blue in the face .

The wedge is an extra tool if needed. Dont always run it it helps shape the wave .
They are all great boats in there own right . Just disappointed with the line up and shocked with the amount of lead being used.

LAwake
03-11-2019, 09:59 PM
BTW, the popcorn [emoji897] is amazing and this thread delivers!!!


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I concur........Yum Yum

dakota4ce
03-11-2019, 10:19 PM
FWIW. If our dealer didnt drop SC over issues i would be in an SL or SE , both my previous boats ran flawlessly.

That being said. I did not bring up malibu , some else did I just mentioned other top tier surf boats were missing from the event.

I think if your going to sell a 150 k boat and demo it with lead , its a tough sale at the boat show . ď you want a great wave , get 1k in lead toss in the bow and your good to go plus sign a check for 150kĒ

Ive been to lots of surf demos and festvals and the amount of lead on those boats just seam like overkill. The resale has about as much to do with the wave as GPH , thats why i brought it up . Has no business in the convesation and can be debated until we are blue in the face .

The wedge is an extra tool if needed. Dont always run it it helps shape the wave .
They are all great boats in there own right . Just disappointed with the line up and shocked with the amount of lead being used.

I call BS on the wedge ďif neededĒ usage. The 2017 23LSV we run weekly is useless without the wedge deployed, for one, and is a hot mess for storage. And, it needs a 750 triangle bow sack on the seats in order to kick off a great wave. Personally? I would use lead.

Heres an option then, have the dealer outfit the boat (before you take delivery) with a comparative amount of water weight and there you have your desired setup. Would be cheap, easy, clean.

Maybe they should offer more formal additional PnP options. To your point, I think. But the truth is: lead is so so so much better than water for reaching max performance weight. IMHO. Using all water sucks.

Did I dream it? You indeed did bring up Malibu passively. I guessed and you confirmed the mystery brand that ďhas it allĒ if I recall? Ballin waves and plenty of storage.....or something like that.

Maybe that was the other fella who hates lead.

Lead is great if you ask me. And everyone I surf with.


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KnoxMojo
03-11-2019, 10:20 PM
JmV.... the thing with lead is that it mimics people. If you want to take that Makai or SE or pick whatever big boat you want and fill it to max occupancy, then your wave will be monster every time. The problem is, most want these huge boats and only have a crew of 3-6, so you have to do something to reach full potential. And that's really what all the talk is about, a boat reaching max potential. Now if you had 14 adults in a boat, and it still needed 1000 more pounds, then that would be an issue, imo. Plus, most people can't ride that great anyway, including myself, sorry.. truth hurts.

dakota4ce
03-11-2019, 10:22 PM
Yes, it was you. Or you were hacked?

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190312/47d5eef490b2553add81194435494031.jpg


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dakota4ce
03-11-2019, 10:27 PM
JmV.... the thing with lead is that it mimics people. If you want to take that Makai or SE or pick whatever big boat you want and fill it to max occupancy, then your wave will be monster every time. The problem is, most want these huge boats and only have a crew of 3-6, so you have to do something to reach full potential. And that's really what all the talk is about, a boat reaching max potential. Now if you had 14 adults in a boat, and it still needed 1000 more pounds, then that would be an issue, imo. Plus, most people can't ride that great anyway, including myself, sorry.. truth hurts.

I am tracking Knox! Makes sense. Lead is very handy. Easy to move. Instant results. On the fly.

I personally hold the opinion that the crappier you are as a surferóthe more a big powerful wave benefits you. Roll into a milder shape, but keep the power. Makes surfing as a newbie easier.

There is literally no scenario in my surfing life where a less-powerful-than-max wave makes sense. Maybe on a little kid....but no adult.


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dakota4ce
03-11-2019, 10:30 PM
That being saidóI wanna surf a foil this year. That could be a place for a smaller wave!


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KnoxMojo
03-11-2019, 10:35 PM
That being said—I wanna surf a foil this year. That could be a place for a smaller wave!


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I had fun on the wake foil in Florida. Rode it long line, it would take me a while before I was anywhere good enough to let go like in the videos, lol.

MJHSupra
03-11-2019, 10:50 PM
Its all in whos paying for the Kool aid

All I can say, good for him on his gig - whatever he worked out with SC. I would be spewing the same SC jargon.

Pick up your new SL from the factory. Make some videos. Make some friends cruising and surfing across the country.


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dakota4ce
03-11-2019, 11:00 PM
All I can say, good for him on his gig - whatever he worked out with SC. I would be spewing the same SC jargon.

Pick up your new SL from the factory. Make some videos. Make some friends cruising and surfing across the country.


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Yeah heís a good dude. And decently objective actually, all things considered.


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jmvotto
03-11-2019, 11:21 PM
Yes, it was you. Or you were hacked?

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190312/47d5eef490b2553add81194435494031.jpg


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I said i didnt bring up malibu. You guessed it , and typed it I used your BOSS PB surf event as sarcasm. But whatever .

Yes storage i wish the bow had storage ,hot mess your opinion , plenty for my family of 7 and all their gear . Wedge is only necesary if you dont have the crew and want a super steep wave .

The 25 and the mxz 24 have plenty of storage

Find it ironic that you rollall week in an lsv 23 :o

jmvotto
03-11-2019, 11:28 PM
JmV.... the thing with lead is that it mimics people. If you want to take that Makai or SE or pick whatever big boat you want and fill it to max occupancy, then your wave will be monster every time. The problem is, most want these huge boats and only have a crew of 3-6, so you have to do something to reach full potential. And that's really what all the talk is about, a boat reaching max potential. Now if you had 14 adults in a boat, and it still needed 1000 more pounds, then that would be an issue, imo. Plus, most people can't ride that great anyway, including myself, sorry.. truth hurts.

I use lead as well. Just not 1000 lbs. ,the dealer stated he drops 1k of his SE in the bow never moves it If he gets abig crew. Overkill in my opinion but i bet it throws a banging ( wait BOSS) wave with 18 peeps and 6k in ballast .

Your right. Most of us arent any good i dont see any of our stats in the cwsa rankings

dakota4ce
03-11-2019, 11:38 PM
I said i didnt bring up malibu. You guessed it , and typed it I used your BOSS PB surf event as sarcasm. But whatever .

Yes storage i wish the bow had storage ,hot mess your opinion , plenty for my family of 7 and all their gear . Wedge is only necesary if you dont have the crew and want a super steep wave .

Find it ironic that you rollall week in an lsv 23 :o
And if you donít think you brought up Malibu, then I am at a loss. Who are you Bill Clinton?

Naw man, I surf 3-4 days a week. My boat, the 23LSV, RZX3, SL550. We simply rotate driving between the boats. Very nice mix.

Lotsa time in that boat. To be in the same ballpark as the rest of the fleetóneeds wedge and the 750 sack on the bow seats. For sure 100%. Otherwise itís not on par or close. With that setup, sheís nice. 4-5 200# dudes in boat. 400 motor doesnít love the load, but we love the wave.

Surfed randomly with Tarzan/Wakesurf Orlando a few weeks backódude coaches Parker Payne. Found nearly same exact setup. Except 600 sack in bow, same wedge setting. Not that that proves anything, but he rolled a fat wave too. It was a blast.


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dakota4ce
03-11-2019, 11:41 PM
I use lead as well. Just not 1000 lbs. ,the dealer stated he drops 1k of his SE in the bow never moves it If he gets abig crew. Overkill in my opinion but i bet it throws a banging ( wait BOSS) wave with 18 peeps and 6k in ballast .

Your right. Most of us arent any good i dont see any of our stats in the cwsa rankings

Maybe you should use 1000#. Itís pretty fun. Do you like to have fun?


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dakota4ce
03-11-2019, 11:43 PM
The 25 also has no bow storage and bags in the lockers.....so.....a lot like the 23. Room for a couple more bumpers I guess.

Thatís not class leading by any stretch.

I am not familiar with the 24MXZ layout.


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elevatedconcept
03-11-2019, 11:46 PM
I roll 1k in lead 400 mid ship and 600 in the bow, it doesn’t move. I run 650 pnp in the rear. I do this because of two reasons. I go out with a light crew 1-2 religiously and I don’t want this boat to ever lose a demo. Which it doesn’t.

In your neck of the woods this may not be the case or any of your concern but the name of the game for most consumers in my area? “It’s about the biggest wave, if this boat has the biggest wave I’m in”

Couple that with some of the big factory ballasted boats out, I have to even the playing field.

I do that with Pnp and lead. And I don’t lose. Ever.

dakota4ce
03-11-2019, 11:55 PM
I roll 1k in lead 400 mid ship and 600 in the bow, it doesnít move. I run 650 pnp in the rear. I do this because of two reasons. I go out with a light crew 1-2 religiously and I donít want this boat to ever lose a demo. Which it doesnít.

In your neck of the woods this may not be the case or any of your concern but the name of the game for most consumers in my area? ďItís about the biggest wave, if this boat has the biggest wave Iím inĒ

Couple that with some of the big factory ballasted boats out, I have to even the playing field.

I do that with Pnp and lead. And I donít lose. Ever.

I leave lots of lead in the Makai too. It does not give 2 sh!ts. Huge boat, huge freeboard, and the 450. I basically bring it up to the equivalent weight of an empty SE with a little lead in it. And you could store a football teamís equipment in that boat. Insane caverns of storage.


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jcredible
03-11-2019, 11:57 PM
I haven't been into boating as long as a lot of people on this forum...but what I will say is that every boat i have been on requires additional weight from stock...even the top end boats! If you think you can get a boat and run 100% stock...you are fooling yourself for a variety of reasons(aftermarket opportunity, but primarily weight restrictions)


Talking of the SL with hands tied...what I will say is the following:

1) The Garcia family has that goofy wave dialed!
2) Part of running it stock with autowake was proving a point on how awesome that wave is stock!


Personally if I were to buy any boat out there...it would be a 2018 or newer Supra SL...the finish coupled with the surf system technology, wave quality, and boat size is so darn good for me personally...that I would definitely make it happen if money wasn't an object in the equation!

As far as the boards go...some thoughts on boards i tried:

1) LibTech's - Not bad boards....but they are indestructible!

2) Zombie Boards were FAST!

3) I ended up buy a Soulcraft Secret Weapon after the event that I have yet to try...but should tell you what I thought of that board!

4) Tried a selection of BluSurf, Varials, HyperLite, Victoria Skims, etc....but what stuck out to me were the Zombie and Soulcraft boards!

dakota4ce
03-12-2019, 12:05 AM
I haven't been into boating as long as a lot of people on this forum...but what I will say is that every boat i have been on requires additional weight from stock...even the top end boats! If you think you can get a boat and run 100% stock...you are fooling yourself for a variety of reasons(aftermarket opportunity, but primarily weight restrictions)


Talking of the SL with hands tied...what I will say is the following:

1) The Garcia family has that goofy wave dialed!
2) Part of running it stock with autowake was proving a point on how awesome that wave is stock!


Personally if I were to buy any boat out there...it would be a 2018 or newer Supra SL...the finish coupled with the surf system technology, wave quality, and boat size is so darn good for me personally...that I would definitely make it happen if money wasn't an object in the equation!

As far as the boards go...some thoughts on boards i tried:

1) LibTech's - Not bad boards....but they are indestructible!

2) Zombie Boards were FAST!

3) I ended up buy a Soulcraft Secret Weapon after the event that I have yet to try...but should tell you what I thought of that board!

4) Tried a selection of BluSurf, Varials, HyperLite, Victoria Skims, etc....but what stuck out to me were the Zombie and Soulcraft boards!

Good post. Good feedback!

The Weapon is wildly popular for a reason!

Also heard good things of Zombie Next Level.

Handbuilt Chaos customs are freaking sick too. Not sure Nick sent out thoseóI didnít see any in vid. I saw what appeared to be a couple bamboo Sixers which are also sweet wips.


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muehlcj
03-12-2019, 03:34 AM
You betóalthough I would submit thereís not much heavy hitting here. Itís all stuff that comes up continually over and over. People are mistaken to think there is a magical silver bullet to making a big ass surf wave. Hull designs, surf systems.....theyíre cool, but unfortunately theyíre not THAT meaningful. 80% of the factors are non-manipulable laws of physics. The rest is frosting, convenience, style points. Hulls need to sink. The bigger the hull the more WEIGHT it needs to sink. A pound is a pound. Buoyancy is buoyancy. No way around this.

We can have a heavy hull, we can have a light hull, we can have lots of ballast or a medium amount, we can use a wedge....yadda yadda yadda but they all need to converge at roughly the same end point to perform comparatively.

The point about a surf boat shootout actually having all the heavy hitters is valid if it carries the ďbest surfboats of 2019Ē title. I get that. And agree!



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Hull shape and surf systems arenít THAT meaningful? Man a guess a lot of really smart people wasted a ton of time developing CFD.

dakota4ce
03-12-2019, 04:19 AM
Hull shape and surf systems arenít THAT meaningful? Man a guess a lot of really smart people wasted a ton of time developing CFD.

They canít do it without the weight. Read it in context and it makes sense. They all need to displace a boatload of water first. Pun intended.

Give me a suckgate or 3, a cement truck, and a life jacket and letís go make a Bayliner throw a sweet surf wave. Well and maybe a helmet and an extra outboard motor.

To further illustrate the point.



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dakota4ce
03-12-2019, 04:24 AM
Hull shape and surf systems arenít THAT meaningful? Man a guess a lot of really smart people wasted a ton of time developing CFD.

Hereís another way to maybe show what I mean: with every manufacturer using roughly similar surf tabs (Malibu aside) and with widely variable hull shapesóis it a giant coincidence that they all make a clean wave once slammed/leaned and otherwise finessed into the right setup?

How do these pre-surfing-craze hull designs even manage to make a wave?

Hereís another one: how is GSA able to work well on basically any hull you bolt it to?


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muehlcj
03-12-2019, 06:50 AM
They can’t do it without the weight. Read it in context and it makes sense. They all need to displace a boatload of water first. Pun intended.

Give me a suckgate or 3, a cement truck, and a life jacket and let’s go make a Bayliner throw a sweet surf wave. Well and maybe a helmet and an extra outboard motor.

To further illustrate the point.



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I don’t disagree that weight is an overwhelmed factor. However if you have a hull a and a surf system that doesn’t work in concert with your weight for equation then you are adding more weight to overcome your Hull and SS.

I think what JMV is saying is work smarter not harder.

That said I’m the first person to say something if every square inch of a boat isn’t full of ballast and lead. Kind of the pot calling the kettle black here - hahahahaha

dakota4ce
03-12-2019, 07:39 AM
I donít disagree that weight is an overwhelmed factor. However if you have a hull a and a surf system that doesnít work in concert with your weight for equation then you are adding more weight to overcome your Hull and SS.

I think what JMV is saying is work smarter not harder.

That said Iím the first person to say something if every square inch of a boat isnít full of ballast and lead. Kind of the pot calling the kettle black here - hahahahaha

Except itís really pretty linearówork smarter not harder doesnít really play. Thereís no way to fool the water into making a massive wave. You have to move it first, so it ďsprings backĒ and makes your wave. Move more, get more. Hull depth is the main factor.

Your main statement was that adding 1000# to a factory system should make a tsunami. Take the PB Makai as an example. It had 1000# in it. But it STILL was 1200# LIGHTER than the Fi.....

Thatís not going to be a fair wave comparison. Give that Makai the missing 1200# and then you have a fair contest.




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muehlcj
03-12-2019, 08:01 AM
Except it’s really pretty linear—work smarter not harder doesn’t really play. There’s no way to fool the water into making a massive wave. You have to move it first, so it “springs back” and makes your wave. Move more, get more. Hull depth is the main factor.

Your main statement was that adding 1000# to a factory system should make a tsunami. Take the PB Makai as an example. It had 1000# in it. But it STILL was 1200# LIGHTER than the Fi.....

That’s not going to be a fair wave comparison. Give that Makai the missing 1200# and then you have a fair contest.




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Consider designing a hull and surf system that doesn’t create as much lift that needs to be counteracted by weight - smarter not harder

So you are saying someone should drop six figures on a Moomba then they have to add 2000 + lbs of lead to maximize the wave? I’m a loyal Moomba customer and I say no thanks l.

MJHSupra
03-12-2019, 08:11 AM
As far as the boards go...some thoughts on boards i tried
!

Too bad the event did not have a method where the riders could post their comments on some of these boards. Like you did.

How many different boards did you get to ride - 6 to 8? If I recall, each rider gets 2 morning and 2 afternoon sets for 2 days? And 8 different boats to try.


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dakota4ce
03-12-2019, 08:40 AM
Consider designing a hull and surf system that doesnít create as much lift that needs to be counteracted by weight - smarter not harder

So you are saying someone should drop six figures on a Moomba then they have to add 2000 + lbs of lead to maximize the wave? Iím a loyal Moomba customer and I say no thanks l.

Ok! Why donít you create that system. You would be revolutionary! The hull and surf system that sinks itself.

You arenít wanting to hear the physics. Yes it really would like to have 2000 pounds more. Do it with people. Do it with water. Do it with lead. Itís your choice.

What about a boat that is exactly the same length weighing 1200 pounds less to you doesnít make sense? It has absolutely nothing to do with the shape of the boat or the type of tabs.

If you want your Makai to behave like an FI25, then fill it with water bags like the Fi is filled. Every compartment: WATER. No storage. Then you have what youíre asking for.

Not sure how else to communicate it.


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dakota4ce
03-12-2019, 08:42 AM
I think buoyancy is a good thing for boats....I sure like it!


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dakota4ce
03-12-2019, 08:46 AM
Actually, someone does have a device that does that. The patented Wedge. Except is creates a bunch of drag and costs lost of fuel to do its job. And itís patented.

I will do the weight.


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larry_arizona
03-12-2019, 09:01 AM
A boat is only rated to carry so much weight. Be it from water,lead or people.

It would not be wise to exceed this rating.

This argument is similar to buying a performance car and then modding it to add horsepower/Torque.

Itís human nature to modify and want more.


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jmvotto
03-12-2019, 09:20 AM
Ok! Why don’t you create that system. You would be revolutionary! The hull and surf system that sinks itself.

You aren’t wanting to hear the physics. Yes it really would like to have 2000 pounds more. Do it with people. Do it with water. Do it with lead. It’s your choice.

What about a boat that is exactly the same length weighing 1200 pounds less to you doesn’t make sense? It has absolutely nothing to do with the shape of the boat or the type of tabs.

If you want your Makai to behave like an FI25, then fill it with water bags like the Fi is filled. Every compartment: WATER. No storage. Then you have what you’re asking for.

Not sure how else to communicate it.


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Dude, your making my point , the line up for the PB best surf boats for 2019, subpar , only one 25 ft boat , a wake tractor ( really ) not and apples to apples comparison and lots of lead to try and equal, but as you stated doesn't matter how much lead I throw in a 23 ft boat wont compare to a 25 foot boat .

yes bigger boats make bigger waves.

jmvotto
03-12-2019, 09:26 AM
And if you donít think you brought up Malibu, then I am at a loss. Who are you Bill Clinton?

Naw man, I surf 3-4 days a week. My boat, the 23LSV, RZX3, SL550. We simply rotate driving between the boats. Very nice mix.

Lotsa time in that boat. To be in the same ballpark as the rest of the fleetóneeds wedge and the 750 sack on the bow seats. For sure 100%. Otherwise itís not on par or close. With that setup, sheís nice. 4-5 200# dudes in boat. 400 motor doesnít love the load, but we love the wave.

Surfed randomly with Tarzan/Wakesurf Orlando a few weeks backódude coaches Parker Payne. Found nearly same exact setup. Except 600 sack in bow, same wedge setting. Not that that proves anything, but he rolled a fat wave too. It was a blast.


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find in the early thread where I typed Malibu , you could have guessed sanger or pavati but YOU didn't.

Bill Clinton , really , grow up.

jmvotto
03-12-2019, 09:28 AM
Actually, someone does have a device that does that. The patented Wedge. Except is creates a bunch of drag and costs lost of fuel to do its job. And it’s patented.

I will do the weight.


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one of two devices that doesn't fight the ballast just saying . other NSS

jmvotto
03-12-2019, 09:30 AM
don't need it 300 on top of the hard tank under the cushions is just fine.

roll with me and I will show you fun.

dakota4ce
03-12-2019, 09:47 AM
one of two devices that doesn't fight the ballast just saying . other NSS

Wedge is not a surf device.


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jmvotto
03-12-2019, 09:49 AM
Wedge is not a surf device.


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I know I wasn't talking about wedge. tabs do gates don't

dakota4ce
03-12-2019, 09:53 AM
Dude, your making my point , the line up for the PB best surf boats for 2019, subpar , only one 25 ft boat , a wake tractor ( really ) not and apples to apples comparison and lots of lead to try and equal, but as you stated doesn't matter how much lead I throw in a 23 ft boat wont compare to a 25 foot boat .

yes bigger boats make bigger waves.

Thatís awesome that we are making the same point apparently!

Whatís your dream lineup for a surf event?


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dakota4ce
03-12-2019, 09:56 AM
yes bigger boats make bigger waves.

I would not say that exactly. Deeper boats make bigger waves is how I would phrase it.


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dakota4ce
03-12-2019, 09:58 AM
I know I wasn't talking about wedge. tabs do gates don't

Gates flood over the top eventually and have a limited ceiling. A significant drawback. Gates also induce tremendous drag.

They work very well to a certain point, yes.


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dakota4ce
03-12-2019, 10:00 AM
find in the early thread where I typed Malibu , you could have guessed sanger or pavati but YOU didn't.

Bill Clinton , really , grow up.

Never grow up .

You bait me into saying Malibu. But You didnít have anything to do with it. Got it. [emoji1743]*[emoji3603]

Were you perhaps thinking Malibu? Is that fair?


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dakota4ce
03-12-2019, 10:01 AM
I know I wasn't talking about wedge. tabs do gates don't

Oh my bad. You quoted my wedge post and responded.


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jmvotto
03-12-2019, 10:06 AM
Never grow up .

You bait me into saying Malibu. But You didn’t have anything to do with it. Got it. [emoji1743]*[emoji3603]

Were you perhaps thinking Malibu? Is that fair?


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lol ......... really thought it was odd no tige but understand the friction. johhny steig may have send his A24 if asked

dakota4ce
03-12-2019, 10:06 AM
don't need it 300 on top of the hard tank under the cushions is just fine.

roll with me and I will show you fun.

I donít doubt it would be fun!

The 23LSV we have is less than stellar without wedge and at least 500 in the bow. We run 11.4-11.6 mph. Maybe it changes with speed?

And with the requisite weight, the nose is low. Caution is recommended. But the wave is a sweet thing.


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dakota4ce
03-12-2019, 10:07 AM
lol ......... really thought it was odd no tige but understand the friction. johhny steig may have send his A24 if asked

They tried to get an Axis and it fell through. Same for the ZX5.

Not sure what Axis.


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jmvotto
03-12-2019, 10:14 AM
That’s awesome that we are making the same point apparently!

What’s your dream lineup for a surf event?


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Supra SE
MC x24
Centurion RI257
Tige Z5
Malibu lsv25
pavati al24 or al 26 just because.
Nautique g25

I left out the" budget" models of each mfg not there is a budget model anymore

TXSurf4
03-12-2019, 10:14 AM
https://i.imgur.com/fI3omdh.png

I left yesterday and we were at 3 pages LOL!!

jmvotto
03-12-2019, 10:20 AM
https://i.imgur.com/fI3omdh.png

I left yesterday and we were at 3 pages LOL!!

WW aint got nothing on us .. lol

winter doldrums definitely taking its toll up north

dakota4ce
03-12-2019, 10:32 AM
Supra SE -needs weight
MC x24 -needs weight
Centurion RI257
Tige Z5 -needs weight
Malibu lsv25 -unknown, maybe needs gas LOL
pavati al24 or al 26 just because -needs huge weight
Nautique g25 -needs weight

Thereís your fair playing field. Like I said Iím not sure about the 25 LSVóbut the bone stock one that I rode behind in Feb was good but not amazing.



There, itís ready. Tell LeadWake to ship in a few thousand pounds for the event if we want all things equal.


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jmvotto
03-12-2019, 10:50 AM
There, it’s ready. Tell LeadWake to ship in a few thousand pounds for the event if we want all things equal.


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yes but probably not 7k

dakota4ce
03-12-2019, 11:00 AM
yes but probably not 7k

To have enough I sure would. The Pavati will swallow 2K right off the bat. Poor little AL24 only weighs 4900#.

Anyway, we are in full agreement anyway so itís all good? LOL


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muehlcj
03-12-2019, 11:34 AM
Ok! Why donít you create that system. You would be revolutionary! The hull and surf system that sinks itself.

You arenít wanting to hear the physics. Yes it really would like to have 2000 pounds more. Do it with people. Do it with water. Do it with lead. Itís your choice.

What about a boat that is exactly the same length weighing 1200 pounds less to you doesnít make sense? It has absolutely nothing to do with the shape of the boat or the type of tabs.

If you want your Makai to behave like an FI25, then fill it with water bags like the Fi is filled. Every compartment: WATER. No storage. Then you have what youíre asking for.

Not sure how else to communicate it.


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At a very simplified representation there are planning hulls and displacement hulls. Then you start taking sections through an actual hull port to starboard, bow to stern, keel to water line and looking at how that shape transitions and how the waterline changes with speed. Now you start getting into that CFD. You want to engage different shapes at different speeds to produce different results at different speeds. Initial lift at slow speeds, less lift at desired speed etc. Why shape a hull that fights your desired end result? Most wakeboats were already headed the right direction anyway but some have optimized for surfing better than other thus requiring less offset weight.

I guess all those fluids and aerodynamics classes I took are holding me back in the physics department.

You are looking at displacement in only a static situation. When the boat is sitting still overall weight of the boat + ballast will displace = weight in water. When you start moving all that changes.

Iím not arguing that a Makai needs more weight than a FI to achieve the same results. I think in fact thatís the point. One manufacture is set with killer wave from factory no need to 2-3k in lead and ones not.

muehlcj
03-12-2019, 11:40 AM
There, it’s ready. Tell LeadWake to ship in a few thousand pounds for the event if we want all things equal.


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I'm not sure I understand "equal". Are you saying boat weight + ballast weight for each boat should be the same? That's not "equal". You add weight to the SE to get total weight the same as the RI257 you aren't equal because now you could add 2K to the RI and make it better.....

dakota4ce
03-12-2019, 11:47 AM
At a very simplified representation there are planning hulls and displacement hulls. Then you start taking sections through an actual hull port to starboard, bow to stern, keel to water line and looking at how that shape transitions and how the waterline changes with speed. Now you start getting into that CFD. You want to engage different shapes at different speeds to produce different results at different speeds. Initial lift at slow speeds, less lift at desired speed etc. Why shape a hull that fights your desired end result? Most wakeboats were already headed the right direction anyway but some have optimized for surfing better than other thus requiring less offset weight.

I guess all those fluids and aerodynamics classes I took are holding me back in the physics department.

You are looking at displacement in only a static situation. When the boat is sitting still overall weight of the boat + ballast will displace = weight in water. When you start moving all that changes.

Iím not arguing that a Makai needs more weight than a FI to achieve the same results. I think in fact thatís the point. One manufacture is set with killer wave from factory no need to 2-3k in lead and ones not.

Except how do you explain that if you give the Makai the same amount of weight as the FI it makes a very similar size and awesome wave? It really doesnít need ďmoreĒ than the Fi.

If you close that 1200 pound gap between the Polar Bear Fi and Makai, the waves are very similar. I have run mine at that weight. Itís ridiculous.

But....That shouldnít happen with their hull designs being so differentóright? Or maybe their differences simply donít matter a lot in this situation and at these speeds. And overall displacement really isnít the most important factor. Itís really about the depth of the hull in the water at weight and speed. And itís ability to stay down. Nobody is really planing at surf speeds.





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dakota4ce
03-12-2019, 11:50 AM
I'm not sure I understand "equal". Are you saying boat weight + ballast weight for each boat should be the same? That's not "equal". You add weight to the SE to get total weight the same as the RI257 you aren't equal because now you could add 2K to the RI and make it better.....

Equal overall weight in order to sink the boat to similar depths.

The Ri comes with a LOT MORE stock water ballast than SE.

Yes you could add more to the Ri if you want. If you can get the motor to actually push it. Youíre going to run into the limit of a single propeller to be able to push it.


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dakota4ce
03-12-2019, 11:53 AM
Except how do you explain that if you give the Makai the same amount of weight as the FI it makes a very similar size and awesome wave? It really doesnít need ďmoreĒ than the Fi.

If you close that 1200 pound gap between the Polar Bear Fi and Makai, the waves are very similar. I have run mine at that weight. Itís ridiculous.

But....That shouldnít happen with their hull designs being so differentóright? Or maybe their differences simply donít matter a lot in this situation and at these speeds. And overall displacement really isnít the most important factor. Itís really about the depth of the hull in the water at weight and speed. And itís ability to stay down. Nobody is really planing at surf speeds.





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I guess your solution would be that all other brands should offer huge factory water ballast like Centurion. They donít unfortunately. They for some reason choose to offer storage.


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jmvotto
03-12-2019, 11:56 AM
I guess your solution would be that all other brands should offer huge factory water ballast like Centurion. They don’t unfortunately. They for some reason choose to offer storage.


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They want to keep them off the bottom of the lake ...

dakota4ce
03-12-2019, 11:58 AM
They want to keep them off the bottom of the lake ...

Oh I get it. Centurion has cornered the market to floating better. Damn! Thatís a huge competitive advantage.


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dakota4ce
03-12-2019, 11:59 AM
They want to keep them off the bottom of the lake ...

Frankly I donít know how centurion is able to offer that much factory ballast. They obviously play the capacity rules differently with what they choose to equip their boats with.


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jcredible
03-12-2019, 12:00 PM
Too bad the event did not have a method where the riders could post their comments on some of these boards. Like you did.

How many different boards did you get to ride - 6 to 8? If I recall, each rider gets 2 morning and 2 afternoon sets for 2 days? And 8 different boats to try.


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This thing escalated quickly! We got to ride behind 8 boats in the weekend...and I probably tried ~10 boards...as part way through the session I would swap if I wasn't digging the board. Here are some that I rode:


1) Zombie Next Level(A few different sizes) - So fast and fun...would buy one of these for sure
2) Soulcraft Da Honu - Was a 49" and super short...spun my first 360 on it and rode away!
3) Soulcraft Secret Weapon - Loved this board...ordered a shorter version that I am pumped to get on in May
4) A Zombie Hybrid...not sure the model - It was fun...but have decided the Hybrids are not really my thing...don't seem to do anything well with a bit of both worlds
5) Soulcraft AV Inspire - Was a great board too
6) BlueSurf - Not sure the model, and it was super choppy when riding it.
7) LibTechAir'N - I liked this board...would consider buying one just due to the invincibility of it not getting dinged up!
8) Hyperlite Varial - I couldn't seem to make this one work for me personally.
9) Soulcraft custom build of the fella on our boat. - I was super little and fast...loved it.
10) Victoria Captain - Just tried a Skim...personally like the surf style more!

dakota4ce
03-12-2019, 12:06 PM
I donít believe itís really escalated. We are discussing how it can possibly be that 2 different 25í boats that have a 1200# weight difference whilst surfing could possible have a noticeable wave difference.

A. It must be that the lighter of the 2 has a crappy hull and surf system that needs to be revisited.

B. Or, maybe is it because the heavier one, well, is a lot heavier? Like 1200# worth.

Folks have asserted A. I think itís primarily B.


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shockthis
03-12-2019, 12:49 PM
Anyone ever seen either of these?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYJ85CEc2Sw

https://patents.google.com/patent/US7216601B1/en

larry_arizona
03-12-2019, 03:48 PM
Anyone ever seen either of these?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYJ85CEc2Sw

https://patents.google.com/patent/US7216601B1/en

Isnít this similar to centurions ram fill?


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trayson
03-12-2019, 04:27 PM
That being said—I wanna surf a foil this year. That could be a place for a smaller wave!


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I tried surfing my foil a couple times. And I realized I had "too much ballast"!!! And also having the 30" mast wasn't great and I need to try surfing the foil with the 20" mast instead. We just don't spend a lot of time on the foil. It's usually an afterthought if we have "extra" time after ski, wakeboard, surf.

dakota4ce
03-12-2019, 04:31 PM
I tried surfing my foil a couple times. And I realized I had "too much ballast"!!! And also having the 30" mast wasn't great and I need to try surfing the foil with the 20" mast instead. We just don't spend a lot of time on the foil. It's usually an afterthought if we have "extra" time after ski, wakeboard, surf.

We have a limited amount of calm water, so maybe the foil can provide some fun after the lake gets chopped up a little bit.


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trayson
03-12-2019, 08:38 PM
We have a limited amount of calm water, so maybe the foil can provide some fun after the lake gets chopped up a little bit.


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It is good for that. but even the foil is affected to some degree by chop (though not in the normal way). When you're foiling, you don't want the blades to breach the surface of the water, so if there's 1 foot high chop, and you're only riding on the 2' mast, there's not a lot of room for error. That's why if I'm riding at wakeboard length it's been more fun on the 30" mast.