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View Full Version : 17 se450, 17 sa450, or 19 makai



padge
02-02-2019, 06:47 PM
Out of these three, which one and why. Looking at all three. 18 se450 May be in the works. Obviously itís the most expensive. But the 17 supras and the makai are evenly priced


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ghebert1111
02-02-2019, 11:06 PM
If you dont mind can we throw in 2018 Supra SL?

padge
02-02-2019, 11:06 PM
Sure


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ghebert1111
02-02-2019, 11:21 PM
Thank you!

Broke Pilot
02-03-2019, 12:45 AM
If it was me, I’d buy my 17 SA again in a heartbeat. Holds plenty of people, and a wave that’s hard to beat. Plenty of room for more stereo gear if you want it, or lead, or anything else. Doesn’t take ridiculous amounts of weight to get a fun wave.
As much as I’d love an SE, I just don’t need that much room. And it’s take that much more weight I’d have to carry when I’ve got a small crew.

padge
02-03-2019, 12:47 AM
If it was me, Iíd buy my 17 SA again in a heartbeat. Holds plenty of people, and a wave thatís hard to beat. Plenty of room for more stereo gear if you want it, or lead, or anything else. Doesnít take ridiculous amounts of weight to get a fun wave.
As much as Iíd love an SE, I just donít need that much room. And itís take that much more weight Iíd have to carry when Iíve got a small crew.

Thanks for the insight. Iím leaning towards a Supra. Iím coming from a 247 so the seís room is what Iím used to.


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DFTR Josh
02-03-2019, 12:06 PM
2019 Makai with the 450
Space, performance, wave and wake.

dakota4ce
02-03-2019, 03:05 PM
Makai with a 450 trumps previous generation SE with a 440. I have owned both. Currently have Makai. 575 in the old one would make the choice more interesting, still would likely lean to the Makai.

SL is a killer boat. No doubt. Wave is delicious.

Makai is massive. The biggest of all. If you came from 247 land youíre going to want room...


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MJHSupra
02-03-2019, 03:08 PM
^^ This ^^ and 1000# of add 'l ballast

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padge
02-03-2019, 03:16 PM
What about value down the road??


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dakota4ce
02-03-2019, 03:29 PM
What about value down the road??


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I would say the model most susceptible to suffering from a decline in value would be the old generation SE.


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dakota4ce
02-03-2019, 03:36 PM
If you can tolerate the size, SL is a great boat. The only thing you would be missing is a transom walk through if you were getting something older than 19. Which you would probably have to in the Supra.

It is an awesome feature. I will say it again this Makai is a marked improvement over my 2016 SE450. Do know however that boat did not have auto wake or 3.0.


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MJHSupra
02-03-2019, 10:17 PM
What about value down the road??


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkThe 17s and 18s SE would be hurt the most. I was looking at an ad for an 18 SE, 40 hours, owner traded for a 19, I think it was just dropped to 104k.

By 2020, the SA will follow the redesign route and follow the same value as the SE.

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padge
02-03-2019, 10:18 PM
The 17s and 18s SE would be hurt the most. I was looking at an ad for an 18 SE, 40 hours, owner traded for a 19, I think it was just dropped to 104k.

By 2020, the SA will follow the redesign route and follow the same value as the SE.

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I can buy this 18 se for 100


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padge
02-03-2019, 10:30 PM
But I can also buy a used makai for 86


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dakota4ce
02-04-2019, 12:44 AM
But I can also buy a used makai for 86


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The one in KY asking 87? My -only- hesitation on that boat is itís a 400 and I didnít see tower speakers (which makes me wonder what sound is in it).

Otherwise thatís a great price and a good looking boat.


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padge
02-04-2019, 05:40 AM
The one in KY asking 87? My -only- hesitation on that boat is itís a 400 and I didnít see tower speakers (which makes me wonder what sound is in it).

Otherwise thatís a great price and a good looking boat.


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Yeah. 400 is plenty here with a good prop. They had taken that picture when it first came in. It does have rev 10ís


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MJHSupra
02-04-2019, 06:34 AM
Sounds like you have 2 great choices in the 18SE and the 18 Makai.

So what are you leaning towards? Have you been on that year/model boat for any test rides?


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padge
02-04-2019, 06:35 AM
Sounds like you have 2 great choices in the 18SE and the 18 Makai.

So what are you leaning towards? Have you been on that year/model boat for any test rides?


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Iíve been on a 18 se. but not surged behind either.


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MJHSupra
02-04-2019, 06:44 AM
My -only- hesitation on that boat is itís a 400
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I would have the same feeling.

Itís a 24í boat, itís deep, most buyers will upgrade to the extra ballast for a boat that size (1000-1500#), then start adding all the people that will be looking to ride on that new boat.

A lot of weight on a 400. I sure it will run with the motor and prop, but I would spend the extra cash and take the bigger motor.


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dakota4ce
02-04-2019, 07:22 AM
Yeah. 400 is plenty here with a good prop. They had taken that picture when it first came in. It does have rev 10ís


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Depends on how you are gonna run it of course. I have a feeling a 400 would have exploded in my boat already...[emoji1787]



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padge
02-04-2019, 07:22 AM
Depends on how you are gonna run it of course. I have a feeling a 400 would have exploded in my boat already...[emoji1787]



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Iím gonna slam any boat i get lol


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MJHSupra
02-04-2019, 09:06 AM
Ahhh. The winter thoughts we all have of how much weight can we throw in there and how great it will feel cruising down the lake.

Summer yet?



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padge
02-04-2019, 09:17 AM
Ahhh. The winter thoughts we all have of how much weight can we throw in there and how great it will feel cruising down the lake.

Summer yet?



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Heard that


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padge
02-04-2019, 08:11 PM
Going with the 18 se450


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larry_arizona
02-04-2019, 08:41 PM
Going with the 18 se450


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Congrats, Supras are legit


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padge
02-04-2019, 08:45 PM
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190205/0dd078cf4a6b2b39d45917be4659240f.jpg


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MJHSupra
02-04-2019, 09:26 PM
Sweet ride.


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TXSurf4
02-04-2019, 09:38 PM
Awesome ride!! Do you know the % of the tint on it?


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padge
02-04-2019, 09:39 PM
Awesome ride!! Do you know the % of the tint on it?


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I donít. Looks def lighter than 5%


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larry_arizona
02-04-2019, 09:44 PM
All black or ultra black also?


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padge
02-04-2019, 09:45 PM
All black or ultra black also?


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Black and black metal flake


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TXSurf4
02-04-2019, 10:03 PM
Man we need some more pics of this thing. I definitely want to see that Black Flake!!

The tint looks like 20%....I was asking bc I am going to have mine tinted before I take delivery and I was curious as to the % vs the black as that will be similar to mine. Yours looks great!!


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padge
02-04-2019, 10:04 PM
Man we need some more pics of this thing. I definitely want to see that Black Flake!!

The tint looks like 20%....I was asking bc I am going to have mine tinted before I take delivery and I was curious as to the % vs the black as that will be similar to mine. Yours looks great!!


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Thanks, when i get it home I will get more pics. Hereís the inside
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190205/034cf7a0644b728f156a36804a529452.jpg


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Matt0520
02-04-2019, 10:11 PM
That thing is NASTY!

TXSurf4
02-04-2019, 10:14 PM
Yeeahh buddddy!!!


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MJHSupra
02-04-2019, 10:26 PM
How many hours?

padge
02-04-2019, 10:27 PM
How many hours?

Around 100. Guy def used it. But itís in immaculate shape.


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MJHSupra
02-04-2019, 10:30 PM
100 is avg. He broke it in for you and traded for 2019 . . . . Good for you.

padge
02-04-2019, 10:30 PM
100 is avg. He broke it in for you and traded for 2019 . . . . Good for you.

I got one sweet deal on it I know that


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MJHSupra
02-04-2019, 10:30 PM
I think the one I noticed had 70 hours.

padge
02-04-2019, 10:31 PM
I think the one I noticed had 70 hours.

May be the same one? Iím not sure on exact hours. Just knew it was around 100. Itís from Tn I believe


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ghebert1111
02-05-2019, 11:01 AM
Going with the 18 se450


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So what steered you in that direction as opposed to the Makai? Did you get an extended warranty? I really liked the Makai, but after 4 years in my Mojo, which I love, I just want to step up to something nicer.

padge
02-05-2019, 11:06 AM
So what steered you in that direction as opposed to the Makai? Did you get an extended warranty? I really liked the Makai, but after 4 years in my Mojo, which I love, I just want to step up to something nicer.

Itís just a nicer boat In my opinion. I like the styling of the SE over the makai. Colors were a factor also. I know the surf system works well. Iím sure the makai does as well. I couldíve saved about 5000 from a new makai but I personally think itís worth the extra.


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BigOrange
02-05-2019, 04:06 PM
Padge, did you get it through Denney's or private party?

padge
02-05-2019, 04:21 PM
Padge, did you get it through Denney's or private party?

Denneyís



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dakota4ce
02-05-2019, 04:28 PM
So what steered you in that direction as opposed to the Makai? Did you get an extended warranty? I really liked the Makai, but after 4 years in my Mojo, which I love, I just want to step up to something nicer.

For sake of information: Makai interior materials are nicer than what youíre used to on your Moomba. Itís a step upóthe same vinyl that went into the 2018 Supras before they switched to ChillTech in 2019.

I owned a 2016 SE450 for 170 hrs, and now a Makai that has 35 hours. The differences are aesthetic to a degree. Example: grab handles are simple chrome on Makai, fancy billet type stuff on Supra. However....and this is interesting....we prefer the ďcheap onesĒ because our kids heads, our elbows, etc hurt a lot less when we bang them on the cheap curved chrome ones. Aesthetically inferior, practically superior. Same for the flip seat brackets. Knee killers on SE, non-factor on Makai. The vinyl patterns are more elaborate on the Supra. The gunnels are fancier. The seat bottoms are narrower on Makai, yielding a larger floor, and more ďopenĒ feel. The driver footwell has a side on Supra, none on Makai.

The walkthrough is a major advantage to Makai. We really like that. Storage favors Makai big time. Stereo in Makai is much less fancy than Supra touch screen, but is dead simple to operate. I actually prefer it (kinda like cruddier grab handles).

Supra is def a bit fancier, but less user friendly and open. Perhaps prettier, but less well thought out in the human-ness department (example: phone holders in Makai are brilliant). Freeboard is much bigger in Makai.

If you ordered a Makai, the 450 is worth every penny.

Swell 3.0 is better than Flow 2.0, but ballast arrangement in Makai is better. They both make a huge wave when dialed. Swell will clean up a little bit easier. Negligible advantage overall once you dial.

I have a unique perspective having significant time in both. I see the merits of both. Itís really what your priorities are, and which one ďcapturesĒ you.


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ghebert1111
02-05-2019, 04:52 PM
Thanks for the thorough input. I spent a lot of time in the Makai at the Birmingham boat show and like I said, I liked it, but after being in a friends 2018 SE last summer I have Supra on the brain

I have a much longer horizon to buy a boat then most people so I can see how prices are next year or the year after that and decide if a used 2019 Supra is still worth the extra money over a Makai.

I'm more interested in an SL than an SE but it seems that 2018 SLs are selling for more than 2018 SEs, why is that?

TXSurf4
02-05-2019, 05:03 PM
I'm more interested in an SL than an SE but it seems that 2018 SLs are selling for more than 2018 SEs, why is that?

I am not "in the know" on this but I would assume the 2018 SEs "value" is suffering due to the all new redesigned 2019 SE. The SL was a new model in 2018 so it is holding its value. Either way I feel like there is a lot of value for people buying 2018SEs at the lower prices as they are great boats.

ghebert1111
02-05-2019, 05:06 PM
I was told at the boat show that the SL would probably be getting a redesign as well in the next year or 2.

dakota4ce
02-05-2019, 05:20 PM
I was told at the boat show that the SL would probably be getting a redesign as well in the next year or 2.

I would sure think SA is next but I donít know SQUAT.


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ghebert1111
02-05-2019, 05:25 PM
Maybe it was the SA, by that time I had found the bar.

Broke Pilot
02-05-2019, 09:24 PM
Yep, 2020 SA is supposed to be a beast, the Rinkers guys keep teasing me with info but nothing substantial enough. It’s suppsosedly gonna debut some major Autowake changes. I’m curious...
congrats on going with the SE, you’re gonna love it!

MJHSupra
02-06-2019, 12:43 AM
I agree. Same news from TN. SA is next, but when I ask about the major changes, I do not get specifics except for "technology changes" that will advance the systems better and better each year.

Hard to chase technology b/c it changes so fast. Gen 1 is great at the time of Gen 1. But when Gen1 advances to Gen10 and looked back on, people say Gen 1 was 'so simple' from what we know now . . . . I think we are still early in the overall picture.

MJHSupra
02-06-2019, 12:43 AM
Denney’s



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That place has some deals . . . . . and they must sell a few boats.

padge
02-06-2019, 05:44 AM
That place has some deals . . . . . and they must sell a few boats.

I think he told me they have sold all their slots already for Supra and moomba


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padge
02-08-2019, 05:44 AM
Man we need some more pics of this thing. I definitely want to see that Black Flake!!

The tint looks like 20%....I was asking bc I am going to have mine tinted before I take delivery and I was curious as to the % vs the black as that will be similar to mine. Yours looks great!!


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https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190208/b870d2096f8aa2208d8d7dd6871024a4.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190208/6a547f28f6baf73b6f5e33a3ee15f2fc.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190208/7495d3ee6f9a0063d190abd6745a000e.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190208/e5e51527b2a877658bf151ee98d7e492.jpg



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jason1973
02-08-2019, 09:27 AM
That is a beautiful boat.

ghebert1111
02-08-2019, 10:03 AM
Wow! Great looking boat.

padge
02-08-2019, 10:24 AM
Thanks fellas



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TXSurf4
02-08-2019, 11:26 AM
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190208/b870d2096f8aa2208d8d7dd6871024a4.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190208/6a547f28f6baf73b6f5e33a3ee15f2fc.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190208/7495d3ee6f9a0063d190abd6745a000e.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190208/e5e51527b2a877658bf151ee98d7e492.jpg



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Man great looking boat!!! I am very curious about the ladder that is on the swim platform....does anyone know if that was a stock option or was it done after market?

padge
02-08-2019, 11:38 AM
Man great looking boat!!! I am very curious about the ladder that is on the swim platform....does anyone know if that was a stock option or was it done after market?

I think the dealer added it


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Prospersigman
02-08-2019, 11:40 AM
I was about to ask the same thing about the ladder, my SL550 has every available option except the triple axle trailer and I didn't get an option for the rear ladder.

On another note, take your time when lowering the tower. I recommend using a couple small bungees on both of the arms that come down and forward!! I learned the hard way and tore a 3" gash in my dash and had to bay $275 for a replacement upper dash. Especially the 1st few trips out until you get used to putting the bimini top cover on. It's not as easy on the FX1 power tower as it was on my 2017 Supra or Mojo. With the bungees you dont have to put the bimini cover on every time you can use the bungees to hold the arms and lower it down then throw the cover on. Do not lower the tower without putting the bimini cover on or you will hit the dash and the mirror if you have the mirror on the drivers side.

padge
02-08-2019, 11:42 AM
I was about to ask the same thing about the ladder, my SL550 has every available option except the triple axle trailer and I didn't get an option for the rear ladder.

On another note, take your time when lowering the tower. I recommend using a couple small bungees on both of the arms that come down and forward!! I learned the hard way and tore a 3" gash in my dash and had to bay $275 for a replacement upper dash. Especially the 1st few trips out until you get used to putting the bimini top cover on. It's not as easy on the FX1 power tower as it was on my 2017 Supra or Mojo. With the bungees you dont have to put the bimini cover on every time you can use the bungees to hold the arms and lower it down then throw the cover on. Do not lower the tower without putting the bimini cover on or you will hit the dash and the mirror if you have the mirror on the drivers side.

Yeah I saw that when lowered it would flip back and hit so i tied a band around it to hold it in place. Thanks for the heads up though!



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TXSurf4
02-08-2019, 11:56 AM
I think the dealer added it


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Can you take some pictures of any brand name on the ladder? Also some pics of how it is mounted and one of it deployed? That is if it isn't too much trouble. That is something I have researched on here as it would be nice to have for times when the Grandparents come on the boat and want to swim.

padge
02-08-2019, 12:00 PM
Can you take some pictures of any brand name on the ladder? Also some pics of how it is mounted and one of it deployed? That is if it isn't too much trouble. That is something I have researched on here as it would be nice to have for times when the Grandparents come on the boat and want to swim.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190208/3419402061f80a93d22d5115e43dc116.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190208/0d05502177fae0da23becc6cdbf0aa39.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190208/6c1c74b78979a6e22c1fa90b9c5da03f.jpg



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Prospersigman
02-08-2019, 12:22 PM
Oh that's gonna mess up your convergence and throw the entire wave off...you should pull that off and sell it in the classified sections now.

TXSurf4
02-08-2019, 12:27 PM
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190208/3419402061f80a93d22d5115e43dc116.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190208/0d05502177fae0da23becc6cdbf0aa39.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190208/6c1c74b78979a6e22c1fa90b9c5da03f.jpg



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Thanks so much!! Those are great pics!!


Oh that's gonna mess up your convergence and throw the entire wave off...you should pull that off and sell it in the classified sections now.

LOL This was actually my next question. Does it have any affect on the wave?

Prospersigman
02-08-2019, 12:28 PM
http://www.garelick.com/Under-Platform-Sliding-Ladder

https://www.wholesalemarine.com/garelick-under-platform-ladder.html

I believe this is it.

padge
02-08-2019, 12:31 PM
Thanks so much!! Those are great pics!!



LOL This was actually my next question. Does it have any affect on the wave?

Iíve not had the boat out yet


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jph3
02-08-2019, 12:34 PM
$130 isnít too bad.
https://www.fisheriessupply.com/garelick-under-platform-sliding-ladder-3-steps-19643

TXSurf4
02-08-2019, 12:42 PM
Iíve not had the boat out yet


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What you have had the boat a whole 2 days and haven't had it out!!!! J/K LOL!! I figured that you hadn't taken it out yet I just wasn't sure if anyone else had any experience with anything similar.

I am really curious as to how they mounted the ladder under there. I see the screws but with the reflection it is hard to tell if they reinforced the fiberglass where it is mounted, if the platform is thicker there or if they glassed the mounting bracket in or anything. The ladder comes with a mounting bracket and suggest through bolting it so that is why I am so curious. It looks great though! Super clean install and very handy!

Also I am not trying to Hi-Jack your thread just very interested in this mod as I have looked into temporary ladders that I could put off of my ski pylon that are rope style with solid footholds but this is what I would really love to do.

padge
02-08-2019, 12:45 PM
What you have had the boat a whole 2 days and haven't had it out!!!! J/K LOL!! I figured that you hadn't taken it out yet I just wasn't sure if anyone else had any experience with anything similar.

I am really curious as to how they mounted the ladder under there. I see the screws but with the reflection it is hard to tell if they reinforced the fiberglass where it is mounted, if the platform is thicker there or if they glassed the mounting bracket in or anything. The ladder comes with a mounting bracket and suggest through bolting it so that is why I am so curious. It looks great though! Super clean install and very handy!

Also I am not trying to Hi-Jack your thread just very interested in this mod as I have looked into temporary ladders that I could put off of my ski pylon that are rope style with solid footholds but this is what I would really love to do.

Iím thinking the platform is thicker there. Itís finished fiberglass under there so leads me to believe it solid?


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TXSurf4
02-08-2019, 12:54 PM
I’m thinking the platform is thicker there. It’s finished fiberglass under there so leads me to believe it solid?


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Is there any indication that it is thicker there? is it raised at all in that area as compared to the surrounding area?

I hope I am not bothering you with this....I am just trying to figure if I could actually make this happen on mine when it shows up.

padge
02-08-2019, 12:56 PM
Is there any indication that it is thicker there? is it raised at all in that area as compared to the surrounding area?

I hope I am not bothering you with this....I am just trying to figure if I could actually make this happen on mine when it shows up.

Iíll have to look when I get back to the shop


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cpropes2005
02-08-2019, 02:18 PM
I added this ladder on my mojo.

https://www.amazon.com/Amarine-made-Stainless-Platform-Boarding-Telescoping/dp/B00EQR7J5M/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1549649455&sr=8-3&keywords=under+platform+ladder

Looks very similar but the way yours locks in is slick. I would have gotten that one instead if I had found it when I was looking.

For mounting I drilled a few extra holes into the ladder frame so I would have 4 or 5 per side of the ladder and just stainless lag screws that where short enough not to go all the way through the platform. I also put 3m 5200 to seal the holes and "glue" the frame to the platform. I figured worst case would be it starts to pull out I can always go back and drill through holes later if I need to but it has been rock solid for at least a year.

cpropes2005
02-08-2019, 02:18 PM
Also no effect on the wave for me.

cpropes2005
02-08-2019, 02:26 PM
Picture of mine.
28057

TXSurf4
02-08-2019, 02:33 PM
I added this ladder on my mojo.

https://www.amazon.com/Amarine-made-Stainless-Platform-Boarding-Telescoping/dp/B00EQR7J5M/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1549649455&sr=8-3&keywords=under+platform+ladder

Looks very similar but the way yours locks in is slick. I would have gotten that one instead if I had found it when I was looking.

For mounting I drilled a few extra holes into the ladder frame so I would have 4 or 5 per side of the ladder and just stainless lag screws that where short enough not to go all the way through the platform. I also put 3m 5200 to seal the holes and "glue" the frame to the platform. I figured worst case would be it starts to pull out I can always go back and drill through holes later if I need to but it has been rock solid for at least a year.

Good to know that thing looks great!! Did you drill any pilot holes for it or just screwed them in?

cpropes2005
02-08-2019, 03:32 PM
Yeah I did drill pilot holes. Obviously just make sure you don't go too deep and go all the way through the platform. If I recall correctly my platform was around 1" thick so I used 7/8" long stainless screws.

TXSurf4
02-08-2019, 04:02 PM
Good to know! Thanks!!

larry_arizona
02-08-2019, 04:55 PM
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190208/52bd68f8c832c5d9bc3158de63b2602d.jpg

That is a beautiful interior.


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clad
04-05-2019, 09:19 AM
Finally found someone who has done this to a Mojo. I assume it hasn't seen a lot of use yet but what is your impression of how it will hold up? There are some big people out there.

padge
04-05-2019, 09:22 AM
Finally found someone who has done this to a Mojo. I assume it hasn't seen a lot of use yet but what is your impression of how it will hold up? There are some big people out there.

I honestly donít know. Havenít had it out yet. But my dad weighs over 250, so next time he goes with us and the water is warm, Iím sure heíll test it out haha


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clad
04-05-2019, 10:33 AM
Word. Can you post a closeup of the underside when you get a chance? Just want to compare with the 2017 Mojo.

padge
04-05-2019, 10:54 AM
Word. Can you post a closeup of the underside when you get a chance? Just want to compare with the 2017 Mojo.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190405/2e7d01435de304c1000d4535a8e36aa3.jpg



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MJHSupra
04-05-2019, 12:58 PM
What about drilling all the way, using a SS bolt and a locking nut on the underside?


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padge
04-05-2019, 01:00 PM
What about drilling all the way, using a SS bolt and a locking nut on the underside?


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I suppose you could, but I wouldnít want to do that to my swim platform


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MJHSupra
04-05-2019, 01:03 PM
Gotch ya. I was thinking about a friendís X30. Nice option to have!

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190405/09fc51936db854d6bad6d3ccd33bd944.jpg


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evoimport6
04-10-2019, 08:56 PM
Hey Padge where do you boat.

padge
04-11-2019, 06:56 AM
Hey Padge where do you boat.

Lake cumberland


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padge
04-11-2019, 07:03 AM
Update, Iíve had the boat out, ladder doesnít effect wave at all. Did have some spray at 20+ mph but wouldnít effect wakeboard wake. One thing Iíve noticed is that this boat feels big when driving compared to my 247. Also boat steers very easy to the right and is a bit tougher to go left, any reasoning for this??


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