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View Full Version : How/Why is GPS speed control supposedly better? I love paddlewheel.



trayson
09-17-2018, 06:31 PM
Okay, I've been having a discussion and I honestly can't figure out WHY or HOW that GPS speed control would be better in any way than paddlewheel.

First off, I'll say that I'm even more in love with paddlewheel because 90% of my riding is done on a river with current. That said, my paddlewheel is truly "Set it and Forget it". I have presets for "surf" at 10.0mph and "Wakeboard" at 21.5mph and "ski" at 30mph, etc. (FWIW, I have PP Wakeboard Pro).

I don't have to evaluate the speed of the river current and determine whether we're going to go upstream or downstream and then do the math to add or subtract the current speed depending on which way we wanna go.

With the GPS boats I've been in, we've lost signal going under bridges (and then the boat launches up to the speed that the Throttle is at). I've had issues where the GPS speed control was set to a particular direction and the boat was pointed sideways because it naturally gets pushed around by wind/rollers/current. Trying to take off in a turn caused the boat to bog down miserably and it stayed at like 3-5 mph until the GPS could figure itself out and finally accelerate.

Remember when Perfect Pass was invented and they called it the "marriage saver"? Because you could set it and not require your driver to have to make any adjustments. Not that the current is 1.7mph and the optimal speed is REALLY 10.9 but to adjust for current, you have to either add or subtract... And don't forget to 'carry the one' when adding those decimals! And what if the current changes while you're out riding? Better be ready to adjust your settings. And don't go under that bridge or make a turn with the boat and expect you to be able to keep your rider with a consistent pull...

Supposedly paddlewheel has its limitations... but in almost 1000 hours of boat usage, I haven't found them. I've never had surging. I've never had a paddlewheel wear out, break, or spontaneously combust. I've never had the wheel get jammed or clogged. I've had it stop transmitting the signal, but that's because a wire broke, not because of the sender itself. (a wire could just as easily break on a GPS sender).

But as passionate as I am for paddlewheel, I'm open to hearing situations where GPS is actually better. Discuss.

parrothd
09-17-2018, 07:04 PM
Okay, I've been having a discussion and I honestly can't figure out WHY or HOW that GPS speed control would be better in any way than paddlewheel.

First off, I'll say that I'm even more in love with paddlewheel because 90% of my riding is done on a river with current. That said, my paddlewheel is truly "Set it and Forget it". I have presets for "surf" at 10.0mph and "Wakeboard" at 21.5mph and "ski" at 30mph, etc. (FWIW, I have PP Wakeboard Pro).

I don't have to evaluate the speed of the river current and determine whether we're going to go upstream or downstream and then do the math to add or subtract the current speed depending on which way we wanna go.

With the GPS boats I've been in, we've lost signal going under bridges (and then the boat launches up to the speed that the Throttle is at). I've had issues where the GPS speed control was set to a particular direction and the boat was pointed sideways because it naturally gets pushed around by wind/rollers/current. Trying to take off in a turn caused the boat to bog down miserably and it stayed at like 3-5 mph until the GPS could figure itself out and finally accelerate.

Remember when Perfect Pass was invented and they called it the "marriage saver"? Because you could set it and not require your driver to have to make any adjustments. Not that the current is 1.7mph and the optimal speed is REALLY 10.9 but to adjust for current, you have to either add or subtract... And don't forget to 'carry the one' when adding those decimals! And what if the current changes while you're out riding? Better be ready to adjust your settings. And don't go under that bridge or make a turn with the boat and expect you to be able to keep your rider with a consistent pull...

Supposedly paddlewheel has its limitations... but in almost 1000 hours of boat usage, I haven't found them. I've never had surging. I've never had a paddlewheel wear out, break, or spontaneously combust. I've never had the wheel get jammed or clogged. I've had it stop transmitting the signal, but that's because a wire broke, not because of the sender itself. (a wire could just as easily break on a GPS sender).

But as passionate as I am for paddlewheel, I'm open to hearing situations where GPS is actually better. Discuss.

It costs more and they call it an "upgrade" so people think it's better. GPS is pretty inaccurate, you need a lot of locked in satlights and there's lag when you do speed changes but the software smooths those out so you don't notice it. Except when you go under a bridge and it freaking takes off like a bat outta hell. Seriously have to warn people about that.. Lol

We ride in a dirty log filled river, never had an issue with paddle, it would suck having a GPS version on the river though. My new craz has the paddle wheel.

bergermaister
09-17-2018, 07:27 PM
For me I didn't have to drill another big hole under the water line - no existing paddle to tap into. PerfectPass Stargazer was a simple install and maintenance free for the last 7 years.

I don't really care if the GPS speed is spot on to actual speed as long as it is consistent and maintains whatever it's set at. Are we surfing at 10.1 or 10.7? Don't really care as long as the wave looks good and it's reproducible. Same with wake boarding. But it seems to me that we are adjusting speed a little rider by rider anyway with different abilities and who is sitting where when they get back in the boat.

We have yet to experience the loss of signal under a bridge and taking off. I'll have to give that one a try.

Strong river currents will cause you to change surf speeds to accommodate going up or down stream as discussed a couple dozen times before, but not a big deal in my book.

trayson
09-17-2018, 08:37 PM
For me I didn't have to drill another big hole under the water line - no existing paddle to tap into. PerfectPass Stargazer was a simple install and maintenance free for the last 7 years.

I don't really care if the GPS speed is spot on to actual speed as long as it is consistent and maintains whatever it's set at. Are we surfing at 10.1 or 10.7? Don't really care as long as the wave looks good and it's reproducible. Same with wake boarding. But it seems to me that we are adjusting speed a little rider by rider anyway with different abilities and who is sitting where when they get back in the boat.

We have yet to experience the loss of signal under a bridge and taking off. I'll have to give that one a try.

Strong river currents will cause you to change surf speeds to accommodate going up or down stream as discussed a couple dozen times before, but not a big deal in my book.

Well, I can't figure that one out either. I had to put in 3 big thru-hulls when I gutted and upgraded my ballast system. They haven't leaked a drop. I had to drill 3 holes to put in a temp sensor for my depth gauge that has that functionality. So what. I think that the 3m 5200 will live longer than I will. It's like people that won't mount a front license plate because they don't want to drill a hole in their bumper that they'll never see because it's covered by the front plate! LOLOL

so for you it's like when cell phones "upgrade" and you just accept it because it's what you're forced to swallow and it's not that big of pill? Like when I-phones get rid of headphone jacks or when phones change to different charging plugs or when phones stop having removable batteries? It's an "upgrade" because they say so.

And who's to say that a paddlewheel install wouldn't have been maint free? I have yet to hear of a paddlewheel problem being posted on this forum. But yeah, I can get that on a NEW install, not having to run wires into the bilge would be easier. I still haven't heard an usability argument where GPS works BETTER. Just that GPS isn't "that bad" or GPS isn't "that hard" to constantly adjust.

That said, go surfing in downtown portland under the various bridges. pretty much every time we've rode with GPS it loses signal. And trust me, it's awesome to set the Perfect pass at 10.0 and not care about where we are, what direction we're going, or any of that. You sound like you're adjusting your speed all the time. I rarely if ever adjust mine.

Broke Pilot
09-17-2018, 09:19 PM
Paddle wheel is great, but Iíll be the devils advocate and say Iíll never not have the gps speedo again. Itís incredible. Iíve never had issues with it dropping out under a bridge. It has a river mode.
It has had a few hiccups where it loses signal (I guess thatís what happening) but it doesnít race to the throttle. Mine actually decelerates until it catches back up. Which is always fun to watch the terror in the surfers eyes as they get sling towards the boat! Lmao

Now then, hereís the major difference, my boat being newer also has a drive by wire throttle. Itís instantaneous changes. It never lets the boat get more than .2mph off the set speed. Having an electronic throttle body just lets the motor fine tune itself so much easier. If it was a cable actuated TB, yea Iíd say paddle wheel all the way.
And having a steering wheel mounted switch to make speed changes on the fly is the s@%t!

jcarter20
09-17-2018, 09:40 PM
I think changing the speed all the time would be a huge pain in the ass. Call me crazy, but I can tell a difference between surfing at 11.2 and 11.4 behind my boat. I opted for the paddle wheel because I saw no advantages in GPS. I mostly boat on lakes, but we do have the Ohio River fairly close. I thought we might boat there some, so that was my deciding factor. For the record, my buddy had a Malibu with GPS, to my knowledge he has never lost signal or had any issues with speeds. However, his boat has never seen the river either.


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trayson
09-17-2018, 09:47 PM
Paddle wheel is great, but Iíll be the devils advocate and say Iíll never not have the gps speedo again. Itís incredible. Iíve never had issues with it dropping out under a bridge. It has a river mode.
It has had a few hiccups where it loses signal (I guess thatís what happening) but it doesnít race to the throttle. Mine actually decelerates until it catches back up. Which is always fun to watch the terror in the surfers eyes as they get sling towards the boat! Lmao

Now then, hereís the major difference, my boat being newer also has a drive by wire throttle. Itís instantaneous changes. It never lets the boat get more than .2mph off the set speed. Having an electronic throttle body just lets the motor fine tune itself so much easier. If it was a cable actuated TB, yea Iíd say paddle wheel all the way.
And having a steering wheel mounted switch to make speed changes on the fly is the s@%t!

BUT, is it REALLY the GPS Measurement device that's doing your instantaneous speed control and never getting more than .2 off? I have DBW in my 2008 with my paddlewheel speed control. It sounds like what you're really describing is a more aggressive KDW (throttle pull rate). it's a setting in Perfect pass where you can determine how aggressively the throttle will seek your desired speed. And one might also speculate that the simple fact that you have a more powerful engine with an agressive prop enables you to stay on speed easier. I wouldn't think that the speed measurement device would be the key factor. In fact, we all know that there is flat out GPS lag in measurement of speed and therefore I would argue that GPS might be less accurate in some regards... Isn't there lag in the GPS measurement of your flight speed changes?

For your speed control to have "river mode" doesn't that mean that it DOES have a paddlewheel that it actually uses to suppliment (or override) that GPS?

The ones I've been on with GPS, when they lose signal it's literally like turning off the speed control and the boat defaults to wherever the throttle lever is. We all just throw down to the lever to farther than it needs to be, right? So most boats start running like a raped ape!

trayson
09-17-2018, 09:56 PM
I think changing the speed all the time would be a huge pain in the ass. Call me crazy, but I can tell a difference between surfing at 11.2 and 11.4 behind my boat. I opted for the paddle wheel because I saw no advantages in GPS. I mostly boat on lakes, but we do have the Ohio River fairly close. I thought we might boat there some, so that was my deciding factor. For the record, my buddy had a Malibu with GPS, to my knowledge he has never lost signal or had any issues with speeds. However, his boat has never seen the river either.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Absolutely. I can most certainly tell the difference between 10.0 vs 10.3 vs 10.5

The Boats that have lost signal under bridges have been a 2015 G23 and also a 2009 Supra 24ssv. Obviously not all GPS units are created equal, especially since manufacturers have simply started integrating speed control into their boat computer systems rather than using add on systems like Perfect Pass.

KnoxMojo
09-17-2018, 10:49 PM
They are both useful. I find GPS works better for wakeboarding when loading the line, edging hard and driving doubles. I like paddlewheel for surfing. Not towing, don't care. The newer 0 off systems have a river mode that you can click for going up or down stream. Either way, they are both better than doing it by hand.

trayson
09-17-2018, 11:00 PM
I find GPS works better for wakeboarding when loading the line, edging hard and driving doubles. .

Thank you. That's the first argument that actually makes sense.

KnoxMojo
09-17-2018, 11:07 PM
Thank you. That's the first argument that actually makes sense.

That's the reason I put the Nautic-laugic system on our Mojo. The boat would slow down and speed up with the pull of the rider. Driving doubles, it would either speed way up going one way, or bog down going the other. GPS really maintains that locked in speed. The cool thing about the NL system was it was installed via pigtails, I could revert back to paddlewheel in about a minute. Other that wakeboarding and slalom comps, can't see that GPS is any better than paddle.

Jeepers
09-18-2018, 10:53 AM
Your experience with GPS is interesting. I havenít had any issues with mine. In fact, I just have the GPS receiver/transmitter glued up under the dash. It even works inside a metal pole building,

I will say there is something about the Portland area that screws with my truck and phones navigation. Theyíre always glitching out down there. Maybe it the VORTEX! [emoji23]


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Broke Pilot
09-18-2018, 11:12 AM
There is no delay in gps speed. All it needs is 3 satellites to for a speed. Flying, the gps is predictive since you have a given route. Any delay is overcome since it knows where you will be and when.
Boats, may be different, but I honestly don’t know. And I also don’t know if mine has a paddle wheel for river mode... haven’t really crawled that far under it.
As far how it controls the speed, I’m not sure if gps doing it or what. All I know is it works. We don’t get speed fluctuations even when surfing in choppy water or going over a wake. Once it hits the speed, it rarely budges.
Trayson, come down to Texas and come try it! Lol you’ll be a believer!

trayson
09-18-2018, 11:31 AM
Trayson, come down to Texas and come try it! Lol you’ll be a believer!

Oh you know I'm more than happy to hit up that warm TX water! Maybe summer of 2019 I might be able to get back down.
(that said, I think my first experience with having the boat race away when losing signal under a bridge was on the Trinity!)

gregski
09-18-2018, 01:53 PM
How about the historical perspective?

Get in your time machine and go back a little over 20 years before GPS was even available to consumers. The only way to calibrate your speedo with pitot tubes or a paddle wheel was to time your boat through a known distance. A slalom course provided the known distance and there were well known tables to determine speed like this http://sites.utoronto.ca/ski/water/faq/btspeedoadj.html I remember lots of dudes that knew those tables by heart and could quickly calibrate a speedo with just a stopwatch. Perfect Pass didn't exist. The best way to drive was to drive by engine speed (rpm/tach) with a mental calibration to the speedo (i.e. 3000 rpm = 30 mph) and men around the world yelled at their wives because they tried to control speed like a car and they couldn't get a smooth pull through the course. Perfect Pass was created in 1995 and it was dubbed "the marriage saver". IIRC, the first and only model was a tach based control which was basically like setting cruise control for 3000rpm. Wakeboarding is basically brand new.

Now fast-forward to about 15 years ago. GPS is available but not ubiquitous. Now you can calibrate your speedo without a course. Amazing! I remember borrowing a friend's Garmin GPS navigation device to do this and it was soooo wonderful since I didn't have access to a course. Check out this thread from 2005 https://www.mastercraft.com/teamtalk/showthread.php?t=5077 They actually discuss the ethics of buying a GPS from Walmart, using it once to calibrate and then returning it. Wakeboarding is the defacto sport and drivers pick a speed based on wake shape and adjust accordingly. Consistent speed is more important than absolute speed like it was with slalom but there was still lots of room for preference: "I like to be pulled at 21mph". Perfect Pass is common but it's still a bit of a luxury option. I'm not sure when Perfect Pass released their Stargazer GPS option but it was right around this time and it was their flag-ship product and everybody rejoiced with the idea of an automagically calibrated speedo! Wakesurfing is basically brand new.

Fast-forward to about 5 years ago. GPS is now ubiquitous. We have a minimum of 3 GPS devices on our boat at any time. Calibrating a speedo to GPS is trivial. Perfect Pass or similar devices are basically standard (like A/C or power windows in a new car). Wakesurfing is now the defacto sport. Now people really don't care about the absolute speed, only wave shape. If I jumped on your boat, I wouldn't dream of requesting a speed, just "make the best wave". But at the same time, the speed control is even more critical. I can tolerate +/- 2 mph wakeboarding, but on our boat, the surf wave is more like +/- 0.5 mph and I can notice even even a few tenths. We could basically set cruise control by locking in the speed when the wave looks good without even calibrating the speedo but since I know ours is great at 10.5mph, it's nice to be referenced to an absolute speed.

Water sports have a speed and control problem going back to the beginning of water-skiing that has been elegantly solved by Perfect Pass and GPS in the last 15 years. So yeah, it's hard to let go of the idea that GPS is the best solution. Especially for the majority of us that are on lakes and don't have to consider currents or bridges. GPS works 100% of the time for us so there's no downside.

Shoebox
09-18-2018, 01:58 PM
^^^ great post!

trayson
09-18-2018, 02:16 PM
How about the historical perspective?

Get in your time machine and go back a little over 20 years before GPS was even available to consumers. The only way to calibrate your speedo with pitot tubes or a paddle wheel was to time your boat through a known distance. A slalom course provided the known distance and there were well known tables to determine speed like this http://sites.utoronto.ca/ski/water/faq/btspeedoadj.html I remember lots of dudes that knew those tables by heart and could quickly calibrate a speedo with just a stopwatch. Perfect Pass didn't exist. The best way to drive was to drive by engine speed (rpm/tach) with a mental calibration to the speedo (i.e. 3000 rpm = 30 mph) and men around the world yelled at their wives because they tried to control speed like a car and they couldn't get a smooth pull through the course. Perfect Pass was created in 1995 and it was dubbed "the marriage saver". IIRC, the first and only model was a tach based control which was basically like setting cruise control for 3000rpm. Wakeboarding is basically brand new.

Now fast-forward to about 15 years ago. GPS is available but not ubiquitous. Now you can calibrate your speedo without a course. Amazing! I remember borrowing a friend's Garmin GPS navigation device to do this and it was soooo wonderful since I didn't have access to a course. Check out this thread from 2005 https://www.mastercraft.com/teamtalk/showthread.php?t=5077 They actually discuss the ethics of buying a GPS from Walmart, using it once to calibrate and then returning it. Wakeboarding is the defacto sport and drivers pick a speed based on wake shape and adjust accordingly. Consistent speed is more important than absolute speed like it was with slalom but there was still lots of room for preference: "I like to be pulled at 21mph". Perfect Pass is common but it's still a bit of a luxury option. I'm not sure when Perfect Pass released their Stargazer GPS option but it was right around this time and it was their flag-ship product and everybody rejoiced with the idea of an automagically calibrated speedo! Wakesurfing is basically brand new.

Fast-forward to about 5 years ago. GPS is now ubiquitous. We have a minimum of 3 GPS devices on our boat at any time. Calibrating a speedo to GPS is trivial. Perfect Pass or similar devices are basically standard (like A/C or power windows in a new car). Wakesurfing is now the defacto sport. Now people really don't care about the absolute speed, only wave shape. If I jumped on your boat, I wouldn't dream of requesting a speed, just "make the best wave". But at the same time, the speed control is even more critical. I can tolerate +/- 2 mph wakeboarding, but on our boat, the surf wave is more like +/- 0.5 mph and I can notice even even a few tenths. We could basically set cruise control by locking in the speed when the wave looks good without even calibrating the speedo but since I know ours is great at 10.5mph, it's nice to be referenced to an absolute speed.

Water sports have a speed and control problem going back to the beginning of water-skiing that has been elegantly solved by Perfect Pass and GPS in the last 15 years. So yeah, it's hard to let go of the idea that GPS is the best solution. Especially for the majority of us that are on lakes and don't have to consider currents or bridges. GPS works 100% of the time for us so there's no downside.

While I never slalom'd a course, I can appreciate the perspective. I started wakeboarding in the late 90's and yes, we determined our wakeboard speed by RPM's. In fact, I was SHOCKED that my buddy who was my roommate in the late 90's and after that upgraded to an "amazing" brand new custom built 2000 Sport Nautique actually STILL doesn't have perfect pass.

My first boat was my 92 Supra Sunsport that I got about 6 years ago. I adored the fact it had PP and it was a game changer for the wife that had never driven a boat in her life.

So while I can appreciate your comments about the benefits of PP in the first place, the one comment I find curious is:


GPS works 100% of the time for us so there's no downside.

Are there really piles of examples of where paddlewheel PP DOESN'T work consistently and reliably? I mean, the only paddlewheel disadvantage I see is calibration, right? I guess with my background not coming from the slalom world (even though I do freeride my slalom ski), the idea of the relative speed of the rider to the water is paramount. It wouldn't really matter to me if my PP display said 10.0 or 15.0 for surfing, because like you said, it's the relative speed that honestly matters. It might as well say "0.0" for my optimal surf speed and then anything would be + or - that figure.

I guess I must be a magnet for GPS speed control problems, because pretty much every one of the handful of times I've been on a GPS equipped boat there have been adjustments needed to be made or errors to deal with. Of course my sample size is small--4 different boats, every time on a river, and 2 of those boats on rivers with bridges.


I guess it boils down to that. I've never really had any problems with Paddlewheel and have had plenty of different GPS problems. I told one of my friends that I literally do "set it and forget it" for surfing with my paddlewheel PP. 10.0mph. he called BS saying that with our changing river conditions every speed control system he's used have required adjustment. But Honestly, we set it at 10.0mph and surf. MAYBE less than 10% of the time we change it to 10.3

That kind of ease of use with blind reliability just isn't available for me with GPS.

trayson
09-18-2018, 02:26 PM
So far I've gotten the following:

GPS

Easier to wire
Requires no calibration
does not vary in speed due to tension on wakeboard line or multiple riders


Paddlewheel

Is not affected by current or wind
more likely to "set it and forget it"
relative speed is consistent and reliable


I still haven't heard anything compelling for why GPS would be better than paddlewheel (specifically for surfing). Just that people don't mind or don't experience the GPS downsides. Because all the "it just works" or "my speed stays spot on" are things I experience with my paddlewheel. My experience has been that it's just as reliable.

gregski
09-18-2018, 04:11 PM
There's no moving parts with GPS. The one disadvantage to paddlewheels could be reliability. I know you haven't had trouble but it's still an exposed mechanical thing that has been known to get jammed/fail/etc. This was especially true with pitot tubes (that's why there were always 2 speedos). Essentially, your surfing day depends on a cheap plastic wheel on the bottom of the boat. It's not a problem until it is. But of course the same could be said for any component of the engine control...

From my perspective, GPS based Perfect Pass has been the only system that has truly been "set it and forget it", it has worked without a hitch and has always felt like the best solution, but the only downside was expense. I've found non-GPS stuff to be a little for fiddly, or finicky and I've seen plenty of weird behavior with non-Perfect Pass / custom factory solutions (but really no experience with the last 5 years-ish stuff coming from the builders). So I wouldn't put that bullet point for paddlewheels, or at least it's a tie in my book. (again, this is only on lakes, it's a valid point for current)

What would be ideal is a PP system that used the paddle wheel as the primary sensor, with GPS available for calibration and as the fallback control. PP could do all of this in firmware now. And while I'm dreaming, I'd really like PP to implement a hybrid speed/tach based control. Once we're surfing, it could record the engine speed. Then when we stop and start it would already know the target engine speed and could just adjust slightly as needed. Adjusting the response factors, etc and having it "hunt" a little until the speed stabilizes could be so easily eliminated.

trayson
09-18-2018, 04:29 PM
If something happened to my paddlewheel while out on the water for the day, it'd be easy enough to simply pull up my preset that uses RPM mode. Boom. Day is saved. You said that a moving part is a point of failure. I say that a bunch of shiny objects in the sky trying to beam a signal to a receiver is a bigger point of failure. I mean, do you have Sat radio in your car? I do and I can't count the number of times I'll lose signal. There are sections of road where I literally have to change to another music source because my signal's cutting out every 2 seconds.

I know some of the speed controls do have river mode. Centurion doesn't. I really dislike the idea of having 2+ settings needed for any given day. Also, here's the fluctuation in our river currents:
https://tidesandcurrents.noaa.gov/ofs/creofs/model_graphics/CREOFS_cu_crav_spddir_big.png
Again, like you said, we can all tell a change in .2 to .3 of speed surfing. current will fluctuate an entire MPH over the course of the day.

Maybe it's just a West coast thing? Because even our "lakes" are typically reservoirs that are formed by Dams and even they often have currents.



Personally I'm not a huge fan of engine speed. that varries depending on even things like wind and waves... I don't know why people are so hung up on how fast a boat/rider is travelling relative to someone going over land. What matters in practice is the speed at which the rider (boat) is travelling relative to the water. because that's what's going to give you the same wave size and shape and push and feel every time.

And it was only on the new Centurion where it wouldn't allow the engine to throw down its power until it was going in the straight line out of the hole.



Maybe people are happy with GPS because they don't have the same wants/needs/demands from a speed control system that I do??

And I agree. Those air Speedo things are a freaking joke

Broke Pilot
09-18-2018, 06:02 PM
I think gps just gives a finer speed control than a wheel. If I want to tune my wave it’s done in .1 mph increments. Plus with the fly by wire throttle it’s always spot on. With a PP I think you can only adjust in 1-200rpm increments. That may be too much or not enough to hold your wave. But hey, I’ll admit I’m spoiled now.
What would we do without technology. Y’all are getting it done, and that’s all that matters!

Shoebox
09-18-2018, 06:09 PM
Trayson, I guess my question would be, why do you care? You like paddlewheel, use it. I like GPS, so that's what I'm using. If you're on a river, paddlewheel is the only way to go. On a lake, it's whatever you prefer.

And your XM comparison is not valid. You lose the signal due to mountains, trees, buildings. Those are extremely rarely considerations on a boat. Again, if those are considerations where you boat, then use paddlewheel.

trayson
09-18-2018, 06:22 PM
I think gps just gives a finer speed control than a wheel. If I want to tune my wave it’s done in .1 mph increments. Plus with the fly by wire throttle it’s always spot on. With a PP I think you can only adjust in 1-200rpm increments. That may be too much or not enough to hold your wave. But hey, I’ll admit I’m spoiled now.
What would we do without technology. Y’all are getting it done, and that’s all that matters!

So I guess I've got a foot in each. Paddlewheel, but drive by wire.


Trayson, I guess my question would be, why do you care? You like paddlewheel, use it. I like GPS, so that's what I'm using. If you're on a river, paddlewheel is the only way to go. On a lake, it's whatever you prefer.

And your XM comparison is not valid. You lose the signal due to mountains, trees, buildings. Those are extremely rarely considerations on a boat. Again, if those are considerations where you boat, then use paddlewheel.

It got me thinking because in another post on Social Media I complained that the GPS speed control on the Centurion I rode on was garbage. I got called out saying that GPS is better, blah blah blah.

But I genuinely struggled coming up with reasons how and why it was supposedly better. I'd honestly never considered the considerations with the wakeboard pull and doubles. So that was enlightening.

As far as my sat radio comparo, I don't know if the trees that line the river would block a signal like the trees that line the roadway. I don't know if the 300 foot sheer canyon walls of my favorite lake would block the signal. I'd think yes, because it certainly makes the sun disappear way earlier than the official sunset and kills cell service.

My buddy with the new centurion hates his GPS speed control on his new FI21. And he literally has no option to fix it. even with a $300 retrofit to paddlewheel, it won't integrate into his systems controls. And his doesn't have a river mode like some moombas and supras do. I would be really unhappy if I "upgraded" to a 6 figure boat and was stuck with the hassles of GPS that he has to deal with. And he's not an idiot--he works as an airline pilot, but was frustrated having to measure river current, do math, reprogram if we changed direction, and have hole shots killed by the speed control. It really put a damper on our fun. And that's crazy with a surf specific brand new boat that's supposed to have all the tech you could dream of.

I adore my XLV and it's paddlewheel PP. But my boat isn't going to last forever, especially at the rate that I'm putting hours on it. So I do think about "what's next". And it's already disheartening that I'm going to lose a ton of storage space because modern boats don't have my playpen bow with the locker under it that holds 3 to 4 boards. I want my next boat to be a gain, lot mixed bag of gains and losses. So I guess that's why it matters. Plus I'm hyper-analytical and love to figure out how and why.

parrothd
09-18-2018, 07:07 PM
So I guess I've got a foot in each. Paddlewheel, but drive by wire.



It got me thinking because in another post on Social Media I complained that the GPS speed control on the Centurion I rode on was garbage. I got called out saying that GPS is better, blah blah blah.

But I genuinely struggled coming up with reasons how and why it was supposedly better. I'd honestly never considered the considerations with the wakeboard pull and doubles. So that was enlightening.

As far as my sat radio comparo, I don't know if the trees that line the river would block a signal like the trees that line the roadway. I don't know if the 300 foot sheer canyon walls of my favorite lake would block the signal. I'd think yes, because it certainly makes the sun disappear way earlier than the official sunset and kills cell service.

My buddy with the new centurion hates his GPS speed control on his new FI21. And he literally has no option to fix it. even with a $300 retrofit to paddlewheel, it won't integrate into his systems controls. And his doesn't have a river mode like some moombas and supras do. I would be really unhappy if I "upgraded" to a 6 figure boat and was stuck with the hassles of GPS that he has to deal with. And he's not an idiot--he works as an airline pilot, but was frustrated having to measure river current, do math, reprogram if we changed direction, and have hole shots killed by the speed control. It really put a damper on our fun. And that's crazy with a surf specific brand new boat that's supposed to have all the tech you could dream of.

I adore my XLV and it's paddlewheel PP. But my boat isn't going to last forever, especially at the rate that I'm putting hours on it. So I do think about "what's next". And it's already disheartening that I'm going to lose a ton of storage space because modern boats don't have my playpen bow with the locker under it that holds 3 to 4 boards. I want my next boat to be a gain, lot mixed bag of gains and losses. So I guess that's why it matters. Plus I'm hyper-analytical and love to figure out how and why.

I think some poeple are confusing older perfect pass systems with newer GPS control systems. They're trying to compare a 1990s perfect pass paddle wheel system to a modern GPS system. There's literally no difference between GPS and paddle on modern boats. Except if your on a river, then it's a big difference.

trayson
09-18-2018, 07:17 PM
I think some poeple are confusing older perfect pass systems with newer GPS control systems. They're trying to compare a 1990s perfect pass paddle wheel system to a modern GPS system. There's literally no difference between GPS and paddle on modern boats. Except if your on a river, then it's a big difference.

That's kind of what I'm thinking. I keep hearing BrokePilot talk about how great his GPS is because it's Drive by wire. But it sounds like he's never experienced paddlewheel with DBW, which is what I have and works great. So the benefits of DBW have nothing to do with PW vs GPS... I had the PP that had a motor wheel that was piggybacked to the throttle cable. Vast difference between that and what I have now where it's literally plugged into my engine harness and fully computerized.

parrothd
09-18-2018, 07:35 PM
And that they didn't know how to adjust the perfect pass settings to help with the lag from extra weight or hard cuts. So they installed the new GPS version which had newer updated software and electronics but they attrib the improvements to being the switch from the paddle wheel to the GPS. I think what they really like is the improvements to the whole system because it worked better but believe it to be the switch to the GPS.

parrothd
09-18-2018, 07:43 PM
That's kind of what I'm thinking. I keep hearing BrokePilot talk about how great his GPS is because it's Drive by wire. But it sounds like he's never experienced paddlewheel with DBW, which is what I have and works great. So the benefits of DBW have nothing to do with PW vs GPS... I had the PP that had a motor wheel that was piggybacked to the throttle cable. Vast difference between that and what I have now where it's literally plugged into my engine harness and fully computerized.

Theyre also getting confused about drive by wire, it's just removing the mechanical connection to the throttle butterfly, older perfect pass motor setups essentially made older boats drive by wire. The perfect pass motor directly controled the thottle butterfly, just not integrated like modern drive by wire systems today. Just the older systems had lots of slop and play so it sucked.. Lol

Broke Pilot
09-18-2018, 08:15 PM
I had paddle wheel on the 06 24SSV, and I hated it. Lol it was a stupid system.
The mechanical connection to the throttle body with the PP motor controlling it and having to rewind itself every time you stopped... I don’t miss it. And like I said, it doesn’t provide the finer control like an integrated gps does.
Like I said, I’m spoiled, I play with fancy Garmin G5000 electronics all day in my Lear 75, hate some it, love some of it. The SA, same thing, hate some of that fancy screen, but the GPS cruise is the tits.
I’m out! Lol

cpropes2005
09-18-2018, 08:35 PM
On my Mojo I had significant surging when surfing with the stock paddle wheel. I could actually hear the engine rev higher and then the wave would disappear as it overshot the speed. I upgraded to the nautilogic GPS receiver and it has been perfect ever since. I will say that I never had the surging issue on previous boats with perfect pass and paddle wheel so it might just be specific to the stock system/hull/placement on the mojo.

Shoebox
09-18-2018, 08:49 PM
As far as my sat radio comparo, I don't know if the trees that line the river would block a signal like the trees that line the roadway. I don't know if the 300 foot sheer canyon walls of my favorite lake would block the signal. I'd think yes, because it certainly makes the sun disappear way earlier than the official sunset and kills cell service.That would only be true if the trees and cliffs were on the south side of the river or lake, you hugged closely to the shore - and if GPS relied on the XM satellite. As it is, GPS relies on a system of 24 satellites, of which only 3 are necessary to fix position, and the chances of all but 2 being blocked are almost nonexistent.


My buddy with the new centurion hates his GPS speed control on his new FI21. And he literally has no option to fix it. even with a $300 retrofit to paddlewheel, it won't integrate into his systems controls. And his doesn't have a river mode like some moombas and supras do. I would be really unhappy if I "upgraded" to a 6 figure boat and was stuck with the hassles of GPS that he has to deal with. And he's not an idiot--he works as an airline pilot, but was frustrated having to measure river current, do math, reprogram if we changed direction, and have hole shots killed by the speed control. It really put a damper on our fun. And that's crazy with a surf specific brand new boat that's supposed to have all the tech you could dream of.
That sucks about your friend's boat, and sounds like he may have a malfunction or they wouldn't be selling many boats.

KnoxMojo
09-18-2018, 09:30 PM
Get a Makai with paddlewheel, you will have plenty of storage.

jason1973
09-19-2018, 09:50 AM
This is an interesting question.. i surf behind a malibu once in a while that has GPS, and even in the middle of the lake it can lose signal and dump the rider. I am all for keeping it simple.

KG's Supra24
09-19-2018, 10:15 AM
I had paddle wheel on the 06 24SSV, and I hated it. Lol it was a stupid system.
The mechanical connection to the throttle body with the PP motor controlling it and having to rewind itself every time you stopped... I don’t miss it. And like I said, it doesn’t provide the finer control like an integrated gps does.
Like I said, I’m spoiled, I play with fancy Garmin G5000 electronics all day in my Lear 75, hate some it, love some of it. The SA, same thing, hate some of that fancy screen, but the GPS cruise is the tits.
I’m out! Lol

Ha! I replaced more servo motors on that era of perfect pass than I can count! I'm not sure that is comparing apples to apples, though.

I haven't had any issues with the paddlewheel on the Mojo. I think either work for fine 95% of the people out there. Certain circumstances may dictate one is better for that scenario.

For your record keeping Trayson .... I've been behind a Tige that took off on me when it lost GPS signal.

trayson
09-19-2018, 01:45 PM
I had paddle wheel on the 06 24SSV, and I hated it. Lol it was a stupid system.
The mechanical connection to the throttle body with the PP motor controlling it and having to rewind itself every time you stopped... I donít miss it. And like I said, it doesnít provide the finer control like an integrated gps does.
Like I said, Iím spoiled, I play with fancy Garmin G5000 electronics all day in my Lear 75, hate some it, love some of it. The SA, same thing, hate some of that fancy screen, but the GPS cruise is the tits.
Iím out! Lol

Like kg said. You're not comparing apples to apples. Come ride my 2008 that is dbw! No throttle cable here. And I have a paddlewheel.

How can you say that it's the GPS? I'd say it's the dbw!


On my Mojo I had significant surging when surfing with the stock paddle wheel. I could actually hear the engine rev higher and then the wave would disappear as it overshot the speed. I upgraded to the nautilogic GPS receiver and it has been perfect ever since. I will say that I never had the surging issue on previous boats with perfect pass and paddle wheel so it might just be specific to the stock system/hull/placement on the mojo.

There's a setting in perfect pass to filter out the surging. You should have tried to adjust your settings before dumping money on the nauti logic.
(But then they wouldn't sell units!)

gregski
09-19-2018, 03:15 PM
I mentioned earlier that my Perfect Pass has been perfect for us and that I've experienced issues with factory built solutions. Could this be the common theme in several of these posts and the GPS/paddle-wheel part might just be coincidental? I know people had trouble with the Moomba cruise. It sounds like there is some bad experiences with the Centurion, Malibu Nautique and Tige systems as well (but it's not clear if those were PP or not)

It always bugs me that car (and boat) manufacturers get into the mentality of "not invented here". For example, I wish that car makers fully outsourced their stereo/infotainment to those who do it all the time, but they try to make it their own "Ford" system and it's a little more integrated into the car but it's just not as good as if it were a "Pioneer" or whatever. Perhaps speed control is the same? Embedded control systems as an engineering skill set was completely outside the realm of these boat builders just a few years ago. Maybe it would be better to outsource this?

Along these lines, I don't love the new style of touchpad/digital display dash board controller. To me, it just seems like too much integration by a small market manufacturer... "oops, we have a bug in our software, sorry your boat died in the middle of nowhere". I know they have lots of wow factor, but I like having my ballast switch separate from my cruise control.

Broke Pilot
09-19-2018, 07:41 PM
Trayson drive by wire means electronic throttle. Thereís a rheostat in the throttle that tells the ECM how to open the throttle body, thereís no direct link between the 2. Your boat should be a direct cable throttle. Not drive by wire.
I dunno if my 06 was any different than your 08, not familiar with Moombas of the era, so yea maybe not a fair comparison. My buddies 17 Craz works great. Iím in no way bashing paddlewheel!
Like I said, Iím just spoiled and so far love the GPS, it gets my vote!

trayson
09-19-2018, 07:57 PM
Trayson drive by wire means electronic throttle. Thereís a rheostat in the throttle that tells the ECM how to open the throttle body, thereís no direct link between the 2. Your boat should be a direct cable throttle. Not drive by wire.
I dunno if my 06 was any different than your 08, not familiar with Moombas of the era, so yea maybe not a fair comparison. My buddies 17 Craz works great. Iím in no way bashing paddlewheel!
Like I said, Iím just spoiled and so far love the GPS, it gets my vote!

LMAO. dude. How many times do I have to tell you that my boat is a 2008 with drive by wire. I do not have a physical throttle cable. I have a TPS at the base of my throttle lever sending electronic signals to my ECU via a wire harness. The only cables there is to shift my transmission. My boat was the first year to have CATS. And the first year to have MEFI-5. The first year of the redesign on the XLV hull.

I'm not sure when they went to DBW, but it stands to reason they introduced it in 07 or 08.

I can take a picture for you if you'd like!

Broke Pilot
09-19-2018, 10:45 PM
Oh crap, I’m sorry... lol maybe I missed it! I woulda sworn yours would be cable driven, my bad!!!!

trayson
09-19-2018, 11:58 PM
Oh crap, I’m sorry... lol maybe I missed it! I woulda sworn yours would be cable driven, my bad!!!!

Ha ha, the old Moomba has a few tricks up her sleeve!

russellsmojo
09-20-2018, 10:32 AM
Trayson says ďI love my boat, better not say she has a cable broke pilotĒ


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Broke Pilot
09-20-2018, 12:28 PM
Yea... I feel dumb. Never would have guessed it! Lol

sandm
09-20-2018, 12:52 PM
my 02 having had both...
paddlewheel was not consistent in keeping a speed but I really think that was more due to the cable throttle and how it was hooked in than the actual software. it did what it was supposed to do but needed some tinkering every now and again.
gps was on a drive by wire boat. I found it to be trouble free. I did use this mainly on rivers and I did have to adjust it .4 whether i was going up or downstream but that wasn't a big deal as it was quite a ways to surf up and down the river. on the few lakes I used it on it was set and forget..

I had xm on a boat for a spell and it had several spots where it would lose signal at the lake above Boise. gps never did. never experienced any signal loss due to mountains or trees but I assumed that was due to xm pointing at 1 satellite and gps triangulating 3.

if I was primarily river I would probably lean toward paddlewheel but where we are now I would want gps.