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View Full Version : Hit the truck scales with my craz, help!



mcjimmy33
07-21-2018, 01:43 PM
So I hit the truck scales today with my Tahoe (2008), and 2016 craz. It was 3/4 full of gas, ropes and jackets, no boards.

Tahoe only on scale = 5660 lbs (2900 front and 2760 rear)
Tahoe and craz on scale = 11,840 gross (front axle 2540, rear axle 3540, trailer axle 5760)
Truck on scale with boat hooked up but boat off scale = 6120 lbs.

So it appears my craz is weighing in at 6180, heavier than I thought, but my tongue weight is only 460 lbs, is that right? It looks like none of my axles are overloaded and the total weight is under my Tahoe limits, but Iím over the 5k limit for weight carrying trailers the sticker on Tahoe hitch says itís rated for? Do I need a beefed up hitch on my tahoe?


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rdlangston13
07-21-2018, 03:55 PM
Iím over the limit on our Expedition with the Mojo as well. We have a 6,000 lbs weight carrying limit and the boat checked in at 6900. Lbs


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larry_arizona
07-21-2018, 03:58 PM
Upgrade your hitch, ball mount and ball to match what you are towing.

Most 1/2 tons have underrated equipment for towing wake boats.


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larry_arizona
07-21-2018, 04:35 PM
Upgrade your hitch, ball mount and ball to match what you are towing.

Most 1/2 tons have underrated equipment for towing wake boats.


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What is your 2008 Tahoe rated to tow?

I canít find a class 4 hitch for your truck.


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Broke Pilot
07-21-2018, 11:02 PM
Guys... y’all gotta remember the hitch doesn’t see anywhere close to those numbers on weight except for the tongue weight. Yes the boat may weigh (example) 6900# on the trailer, but the hitch is seeing a small fraction of that to pull it. That’s what the wheels are for! Lol if it was on skids yes you’d be seeing the full weight.
Look back at those old stupid tundra commercials pulling the space shuttle. It’s not pulling anywhere near what it weighs.
Trust me, these hitches on these trucks can pull way more than that sticker is rating them. Why the arbitrary numbers? Who freakin knows... probly lawyers and CYA.
Don’t sweat it.
Tow ratings go up every year for all classes of trucks, but not much has changed over the last 20 years. Power is up every year, but brakes are brakes. Suspensions can get stiffer to carry the load at the expense of ride quality. But towing is the same as it’s always been. Hitch up and roll. You’ll be fine! I’ve pulled way worse than a 7k pound wake boat with a 1/2 ton truck lol

ATS0921
07-21-2018, 11:10 PM
Guys... yíall gotta remember the hitch doesnít see anywhere close to those numbers on weight except for the tongue weight. Yes the boat may weigh (example) 6900# on the trailer, but the hitch is seeing a small fraction of that to pull it. Thatís what the wheels are for! Lol if it was on skids yes youíd be seeing the full weight.
Look back at those old stupid tundra commercials pulling the space shuttle. Itís not pulling anywhere near what it weighs.
Trust me, these hitches on these trucks can pull way more than that sticker is rating them. Why the arbitrary numbers? Who freakin knows... probly lawyers and CYA.
Donít sweat it.
Tow ratings go up every year for all classes of trucks, but not much has changed over the last 20 years. Power is up every year, but brakes are brakes. Suspensions can get stiffer to carry the load at the expense of ride quality. But towing is the same as itís always been. Hitch up and roll. Youíll be fine! Iíve pulled way worse than a 7k pound wake boat with a 1/2 ton truck lolCould not agree more with this post...

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mcjimmy33
07-22-2018, 12:09 AM
What is your 2008 Tahoe rated to tow?

I canít find a class 4 hitch for your truck.


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The manual for mine says 7500 lbs (I have 3.73 rear end), however the sticker on the hitch says 10k lbs for weight distributing and 5k for weight carrying.


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mcjimmy33
07-22-2018, 12:11 AM
Upgrade your hitch, ball mount and ball to match what you are towing.

Most 1/2 tons have underrated equipment for towing wake boats.


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My ball mount and ball are rated for 8k so Iím good there. My hitch is build into my bumper, can that be changed easily?


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larry_arizona
07-22-2018, 07:24 AM
Just because the truck and hitch didnít break the first or tenth time you pulled it with overloading the max hitch rating doesnít mean it wonít fail the next time. Safety factor only gets you so far for so long

The trailer hitch ratings are based on the weight of the trailer and assumes the trailer has rolling wheels.

Pulling a 6100# boat and trailer combo on a hitch rated for 5000# max trailer weight is not recommended.

1) Not sure how insurance would handle it if you had a failure towing overloaded.
2) losing a trailer not only endangers you, but certainly others. My friend lost a snowmobile trailer at 70mph, that crossed the median and took out 6 cars. Thankfully nobody was hurt.
3)Your investment your risk.

Donít feel bad, 2018 F150ís only come with a hitch rated for 5000#, I had to upgrade to a 10000# hitch and look how stupid this looks
lolhttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180722/c645ca8cc8ec2aa546ea90ba0a428646.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180722/f088451a5b40e1499b378d762057dfac.jpg



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rdlangston13
07-22-2018, 07:37 AM
I wonder if half ton weight carrying hitches are limited in part by the balance of the vehicle. Too much tongue weight starts to decrease weight on the front axle which can negatively affect handling. If the hitch is only rated for 5,000 lbs weight carrying then whoís to say that that isnít the max for the vehicle as a whole weight carrying?

Us half ton drivers may bee to start looking into weight distributing setups.


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larry_arizona
07-22-2018, 07:54 AM
In the case of the F150, the factory hitch is simply weak as its integrated as part of the bumper. Ford messed up here in my opinion.

How many F150ís are out there towing more than 5000#? My guess is A LOT!!

GM 1/2 tons come with a class4 hitch (10000#) with all variants of tow packages.

The F150 I have is SAE J2807 rated for towing 10700#. You need to look at the whole picture.

Things like payload, tire rating, cooling, brakes, hitch equipment etc.

All said, even with the proper equipment, pulling a 7100# Supra SA with a 3.5 ecoboost F150 is interesting. You absolutely know itís back there but it pulls it fairly well.






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rdlangston13
07-22-2018, 07:57 AM
Itís rated for 10,700 lbs yes but that is either weight distributing or fifth wheel/goose neck which does not decrease the weight on the front axle. Half ton trucks do not have giant heavy Diesel engines pushing down on the front tires. Hell I bet that bumper is rated for 10,000 lbs weight distributing which makes me believe it must be plenty strong


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larry_arizona
07-22-2018, 08:00 AM
I donít think you want to run a WD set up on a boat trailer.

Most WD set ups are not back up friendly


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Broke Pilot
07-22-2018, 09:19 AM
If yíall want to spend time and money on a hitch if it makes you feel safer I say go for it. But remember this... those receivers that are bolted to the bumper or frame with 4 to 6 hardened steel bolts, if you think that canít hold more than 5-10k pound trailers lol... the only link from the ball to the truck is a single 3/4Ē hardened steel pin (hell, I use a grade 8 bolt to keep people from stealing my hitch) that is being stressed constantly in every direction off 2 small contact points. If that doesnít fail, the receiver isnít going to.

larry_arizona
07-22-2018, 09:43 AM
I canít speak for all hitches, but I can tell you the weak link on a factory F150 hitch is the lack of welds on the receiver box AND the bolts are oriented to be in tension versus shear. Typically bolts in shear are stronger than bolts in tension.

The Class 4 hitch I added has bolts attached to frame in shear.

If bolts were the only thing that qualified hitch strength, I would agree with you BP.

If you research hitch failures ( itís the nerdy Mechanical Engineer in me lol) itís the welds that fail versus bolts.

For the record, the hitch pin is in double shear and one of the strengths of the hitch set up, and a smooth pin is stronger than a threaded bolt, cut threads are stress risers.


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parrothd
07-22-2018, 10:40 AM
Towing capacity has nada to do with braking.. �� What makes the towing capacity number is the gearing.

larry_arizona
07-22-2018, 10:44 AM
Towing capacity has nada to do with braking.. �� What makes the towing capacity number is the gearing.

As long as you donít exceed max payload.

It also assumes your trailer has brakes that are functional and rated for the trailer load.

I think it would be fair to say there is a large percentage of trucks towing wakeboats that are exceeding hitch equipment and or towing capacity.

Itís just not a risk worth taking in my opinion. For safety and financial risk, no way am I losing a 6 figure boat to a hitch failure that insurance would likely deny.


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MGX
07-22-2018, 04:05 PM
I'm no expert but my guess is that when pulling the boat and trailer out of the water on a ramp is probably the most stress put on the hitch. My friend bent his hitch on a Mercedes SUV with an 09 LSV.

Shoebox
07-23-2018, 02:49 AM
Guys... yíall gotta remember the hitch doesnít see anywhere close to those numbers on weight except for the tongue weight. Yes the boat may weigh (example) 6900# on the trailer, but the hitch is seeing a small fraction of that to pull it. Thatís what the wheels are for! Lol if it was on skids yes youíd be seeing the full weight.
Look back at those old stupid tundra commercials pulling the space shuttle. Itís not pulling anywhere near what it weighs.
Trust me, these hitches on these trucks can pull way more than that sticker is rating them. Why the arbitrary numbers? Who freakin knows... probly lawyers and CYA.
Donít sweat it.
Tow ratings go up every year for all classes of trucks, but not much has changed over the last 20 years. Power is up every year, but brakes are brakes. Suspensions can get stiffer to carry the load at the expense of ride quality. But towing is the same as itís always been. Hitch up and roll. Youíll be fine! Iíve pulled way worse than a 7k pound wake boat with a 1/2 ton truck lolThat all sounds good until you end up in an accident, and the other guy's lawyer finds out you were towing beyond your truck's ratings. Then guess who's liable?

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Broke Pilot
07-23-2018, 10:14 AM
How are they going to know? They can’t weigh anything. By the time it gets to lawyers your boat and trailer will be long gone and if it’s that bad, the boat will probly be substantially lighter than it was. Dunno about many other places, but Texas doesn’t have any enforcement for personal vehicles. We have state troopers that stop big trucks outside of weigh stations for spot inspections, but if it can roll down the road at least looking safe they’re not gonna bother.
We can what if this thing to death, I’m not saying be dumb when towing, you gotta use your head. But come on, if these new trucks with all the fancy crap that comes in them can’t tow a wake boat without a Cummins or PS, there a problem. If they’re coming with hitches that are so weak they can’t handle the rolling weight, there a bigger problem.
Y’all be safe out there, like my momma always told me, it’s not you I worry about, it’s all the other crazies! We have a lot of skin in the game with all these expensive toys. I don’t blame any one for worrying about it. But I hate this bubble wrapped for safety world we live in now, at some point you gotta look at that chunk of steel under there and say it’s good enough.
Besides, think how bad it would look for ford or Chevy etc, if they started having hitch failures because of a wake boat. The PR nightmare that would ensue, overloaded hitch or not, would be a major kick in the balls for them.

larry_arizona
07-23-2018, 10:25 AM
I donít think itís ďbubble wrappingĒ to upgrade a 2018 F150 factory hitch rated for 500# tongue and 5000# rolling trailer weight for a 7100#+ boat. $150 is cheap.

I do think Ford has a problem here and I donít think the majority of F150 owners care to check.

I donít mean to call anyone out, but ratings are out there by engineers for a reason, I certainly am not comfortable exceeding a 2-1 safety factor and blindly assume itís ok.

I think an insurance investigation is smart enough to look up the factory mass of the boat and trailer in question.





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rdlangston13
07-23-2018, 10:42 AM
I just think that if the hitch is rated for 5k weight carrying but 10k weight distributing then the weak link might be the balance of the truck. The hitch is carrying the weight regardless of weight distributing or weight carrying. You want your front wheels firmly on the ground.

I think tongue weight is more important than total trailer weight. If you are pulling 6000 lbs but can keep the tongue weight at or below 500 without sway then you will be fine


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larry_arizona
07-23-2018, 10:59 AM
As long as you guys feel comfortable with your data and analysis.

I wonít argue it. Just pointing it out with the data that Ford provides.

I am not calling anyone out, or trying to offend.

It was worth sharing.


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trayson
07-23-2018, 02:22 PM
I wonder if half ton weight carrying hitches are limited in part by the balance of the vehicle. Too much tongue weight starts to decrease weight on the front axle which can negatively affect handling. If the hitch is only rated for 5,000 lbs weight carrying then who’s to say that that isn’t the max for the vehicle as a whole weight carrying?

Us half ton drivers may bee to start looking into weight distributing setups.


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I just think that if the hitch is rated for 5k weight carrying but 10k weight distributing then the weak link might be the balance of the truck. The hitch is carrying the weight regardless of weight distributing or weight carrying. You want your front wheels firmly on the ground.

I think tongue weight is more important than total trailer weight. If you are pulling 6000 lbs but can keep the tongue weight at or below 500 without sway then you will be fine


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David, there's more than one way to affect the balance of your truck front-to-rear. Weight distributing isn't the answer, but Airbags very well may be. Eliminate butt squatt on our F150 Eco and BOOM, that also means that the front-rear bias is more equal and I've eliminated the problem you're describing of impacting handling with less weight on the front.

Also with bags you're actually affecting tongue weight too. I put my bags at 50psi when towing the boat in its normal setup and the 5psi minimum when driving the truck without trailer. I chose 50psi by taking a tape measure and comparing the distance between the top of my tire and the fender arch. I stopped adding air when the wheel gap was equal between front and rear on the truck. and made sure that I kept a level trailer by choosing the appropriate drop on the drawbar. If the trailer is level, there's less tongue weight compared to a trailer that's sloping downward towards the tongue.

Also, it's pretty rad when hitching and unhitching to not crank the tongue jack as far but use the airbags inflating/deflating to move the truck relative to the trailer tongue! I have the wireless remote with 2 memory presets on it.

Not really related, but as an interesting side note, I went with Load Range D tires instead of the C's that are normally put on our trailers. My boat/trailer came in at 6250 IIRC. I know that loaded down with 45 gallons of extra fuel, full tank in boat and truck, and all our camping gear for a week that we were at a combined total of 14,000 with 3 of us in the truck.

gregski
07-23-2018, 07:04 PM
mcjimmy33: The actual hitch isn't the limiting factor for the 5k rating. If GM could simply slap a different hitch on a Tahoe and make it rated for 10k, they would have done it a long time ago and sold them like crazy.

It's more about the stability of the vehicle/trailer combo which is a combination of vehicle weight, suspension and weight distribution. For stability, you want something around 10% (typically 10-15%) of the trailer weight to be on the tongue. 460lb tongue weight is 7.5% for you and probably a bit light. With the trailer's center of gravity farther back, your vehicle is in better shape but at the expense of overall stability. But your Tahoe would be in rough shape with 600-900lb sitting on the hitch. The only real solution here would be to limit your speed (55mph?). Here's a good article about the weight distribution vs. stability: https://jalopnik.com/tow-me-down-1609112611/1609771499

The secondary issues arise as total weights increase: drive-train strength, brakes, tires, steering, etc. (Have you ever looked at the drive-shaft and rear axle of a 3/4 ton truck compared to a 1/2 ton truck? The difference is huge)

So, you're overloaded. What are you going to do about it? Live with it and hopefully at least limit speed/distance/terrain? Help the suspension with air springs and a weight distributing hitch? (Air springs alone aren't really a solution but it'd be better than nothing and I think there's only 1 or 2 WD systems that can work on trailers with surge brakes). Get a different tow vehicle?

trayson
07-23-2018, 07:27 PM
The Tahoe itself says 7500, but the hitch says 5k. Sounds like the same problem that most of the F150 trucks have. I'd tow away and not sweat it. I can guarantee you that there are TONS of F150's and Tahoe's that are towing over 5k and no one bats an eye.

And if you ever have trouble, just tell them that some stranger on an internet forum said it'd be fine.

larry_arizona
07-23-2018, 07:39 PM
I might offer a back up plan......if you are going to overload the hitch rating willingly at minimum you might want attach your safety chains directly to the vehicles frame.

Hitch fails and the safety chains attached to the hitch doesnít do much.


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mcjimmy33
07-23-2018, 08:20 PM
I am still trying to figure out all my options. I tried looking up class iv or v hitches for my Tahoe and I found some for the body style before mine but not my body style.

I am still confused as Iím nowhere near my axle ratings and the truck already has the self leveling suspension and sits level when hooked up. I also am well within gvwr and gcwr. Ideally Iíd like to find a new hitch I can install. The truck also has the 3.73 12 bolt rear end so I feel everything is stout in the back.

Worst case scenario I would look to upgrade to a 1500 truck but Iíd really rather keep my Tahoe.


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rdlangston13
07-23-2018, 09:24 PM
The Tahoe itself says 7500, but the hitch says 5k. Sounds like the same problem that most of the F150 trucks have. I'd tow away and not sweat it. I can guarantee you that there are TONS of F150's and Tahoe's that are towing over 5k and no one bats an eye.

And if you ever have trouble, just tell them that some stranger on an internet forum said it'd be fine.

Once again itís rated for 7500 WITH a weight distributing hitch that disperses tongue weight to the front AND rear axles. No amount of air bag help will distribute trailer weight to the front and without weight distributing the more tongue weight you have you actually DECEASE weight on the front axle. This is why the limitations IMO. The hitch is plenty strong but if your overloading the rear axle and reducing the load on the front stability will start to become an issue. Iím not saying Iím innocent as I am 900 lbs over the trailer weight limit for my tow vehicle in a weight carrying set up but sour 2300 lbs under in weight distributing.


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parrothd
07-23-2018, 09:47 PM
I am still trying to figure out all my options. I tried looking up class iv or v hitches for my Tahoe and I found some for the body style before mine but not my body style.

I am still confused as I’m nowhere near my axle ratings and the truck already has the self leveling suspension and sits level when hooked up. I also am well within gvwr and gcwr. Ideally I’d like to find a new hitch I can install. The truck also has the 3.73 12 bolt rear end so I feel everything is stout in the back.

Worst case scenario I would look to upgrade to a 1500 truck but I’d really rather keep my Tahoe.


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I have same issue with my Avalanche, 7100 tow rating and 5000lbs hitch. I don't have any issues towing for short range like an hour or two. My main concerns are breakdowns on long trips. My Avalanche has 200k miles.

Every summer I tow to upper Wisconsin which is about an 8 hour trip each way. This year I rented a Ram 3500 turbo desiel 6 wheeled beast from enterprise truck rental. Made my Avalanche feel small. I couldn't even tell my fully loaded craz with an extra 500lbs lead in was back there, even with all our gear.

Do what makes you feel comfortable, I'd just keep it in 3rd gear to protect the trans and towaway.

Broke Pilot
07-23-2018, 10:51 PM
The Tahoe itself says 7500, but the hitch says 5k. Sounds like the same problem that most of the F150 trucks have. I'd tow away and not sweat it. I can guarantee you that there are TONS of F150's and Tahoe's that are towing over 5k and no one bats an eye.

And if you ever have trouble, just tell them that some stranger on an internet forum said it'd be fine.

Exactly... lol
Hitch up and roll!

Shoebox
07-24-2018, 12:19 AM
David, there's more than one way to affect the balance of your truck front-to-rear. Weight distributing isn't the answer, but Airbags very well may be. Eliminate butt squatt on our F150 Eco and BOOM, that also means that the front-rear bias is more equal and I've eliminated the problem you're describing of impacting handling with less weight on the front.This tells me you have no idea how weight distributing hitches work, or what they actually do.



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