Adding dual pumps per bag

[moombahighrider]

I need some help guys. Who has a 2018 boat with the g6 ballast? Would you be willing to take some pictures of the wiring for me? The PDM is located behind the panel at the back of the port locker. I would like to see how the factory has wired the 2 pumps per bag to the pdm. Thanks in advance!

[cpropes2005]

I am interested in trying this as well. If I recall some of the other posts on the subject it sounded like they had 3 new relay based ballast modules for the 2018 models so maybe they wired the on/off from the pdm out to the relay modules so they could keep the timer function controlled from the screen? That would be ideal because if you have the correct power to energize the relays I think you could do a spst combined dpdt relay setup to properly control the on/off and reversing polarity of each new pump without adding any more current draw to the pdm. Pictures would definitely be helpful!

Not to hijack the thread but if someone does snap some pictures of the wiring could you also take a pic of the where the plumbing splits? Is it right after the through hull?

[moombahighrider]

I am interested in trying this as well. If I recall some of the other posts on the subject it sounded like they had 3 new relay based ballast modules for the 2018 models so maybe they wired the on/off from the pdm out to the relay modules so they could keep the timer function controlled from the screen? That would be ideal because if you have the correct power to energize the relays I think you could do a spst combined dpdt relay setup to properly control the on/off and reversing polarity of each new pump without adding any more current draw to the pdm. Pictures would definitely be helpful!

Not to hijack the thread but if someone does snap some pictures of the wiring could you also take a pic of the where the plumbing splits? Is it right after the through hull?

It is right before the pumps at the back of each locker. they also moved the center pumps to mount close to the center tank.

[korey]

27013

Single line from the ball valve to a Y just upstream of the pumps.

There are 4 relays on this (port) side. Orange wire from each pump turns red at a connector then go to seperate relays. I didn't trace it all but I'm thinking one power relay per pump, and one reversing relay? What does a boat with only 3 pumps look like? Center pumps are between the fuel tank and ballast tank under the deck. I'm assuming stbd pumps are behind the similar panel on that side. I didnt see relays for the center pumps, obviously they've got to be somewhere...

I was up there remote troubleshooting my depth finder/water temp issue on the phone with my dealer.

Sorry for the not so greatbpic, it's as far as I had time to dig into it right now.

[moombahighrider]

27013

Single line from the ball valve to a Y just upstream of the pumps.

There are 4 relays on this (port) side. Orange wire from each pump turns red at a connector then go to seperate relays. I didn't trace it all but I'm thinking one power relay per pump, and one reversing relay? What does a boat with only 3 pumps look like? Center pumps are between the fuel tank and ballast tank under the deck. I'm assuming stbd pumps are behind the similar panel on that side. I didnt see relats for tge center pumps, obviously they got to be somewhere...

I was up there remote troubleshooting my depth finder/water temp issue on the phone with my dealer.

Sorry for the not so greatbpic, it's as far as I had time to dig into it right now.

Thanks. When you have time, can you take a clear pic of the relay module on the top right of the board? It is shrouded with wires in this pic. I am assuming that is a relay module, as I don’t have that and the pdm looks identical. On my boat with 3 pumps, the pdm wires go directly to the pumps, with no relays in the mix.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180516/8f9bfb4057536cf03a398bb5ad9e0b2b.jpg

[korey]

Derp, I can't believe I didn't get that picture. I did pull the shroud off of the relay module and trace wires. I'm at work now, but I'll snap a picture of the relays before I put it back together now that I know there are none on yours... might not be tonight, but definitly by the weekend.

[cpropes2005]

What pump are you planning on adding? Looks like the stock one is model # 18670 which according to google is only 480 gph? If we are moving to relays any reason the second pump couldn't be a bigger pump like the ballast king or the wakemakers branded pump that claims 720 gph?

[korey]

27028
27029

I hope thus helps, no time for me to trace wires this morning - this reminds me too much of working on a boat, and that's the reason I bought a new one!

[parrothd]

How about the relay model numbers.. ��

[cpropes2005]

Looks like it is listed on the case in the picture he posted. Hella 931680011.

[parrothd]

Ahh.. My bad, thanks!

[cpropes2005]

I have been thinking a little more about how I would have to wire this up. I was hoping I could just leave the existing 3 pumps alone and tap into the PDM to control relays for the 3 new pumps but the more I look at it I don't think that will work. I think we would have to switch all 6 pumps to relays and use the current +/- motor output from the PDM to open and close all of the relays. Attached is a sketched out wiring diagram. You guys see any holes in that plan? I think it will work but still trying to decide if I want to give it a shot.

27109

[trayson]

I have been thinking a little more about how I would have to wire this up. I was hoping I could just leave the existing 3 pumps alone and tap into the PDM to control relays for the 3 new pumps but the more I look at it I don't think that will work. I think we would have to switch all 6 pumps to relays and use the current +/- motor output from the PDM to open and close all of the relays. Attached is a sketched out wiring diagram. You guys see any holes in that plan? I think it will work but still trying to decide if I want to give it a shot.

27109

I see what you're trying to do... have the PDM trigger relays for the two pumps. However, I wonder if the PDM is already designed to power a single pump, and you're just using the outputs of the PDM before you get to the OEM pump to trigger a relay, couldn't you just skip the 2nd relay? It seems like it'd be redundant. I mean, it's not going to hurt anything per se, but it seems like you could go simpler and have the PDM to pump 1 and then simply tap that line in between the pump and PDM to trigger a single relay for the pump you're adding....

Because really you're just looking for a + to trigger that 2nd relay...

Those are my thoughts.

[cpropes2005]

If using SPDT relays you have to have two of them for a reversible pump in order to be able to change the polarity for fill/empty. With that said my original thought was the same as yours, just leave the existing pump alone and tap the power out of the PDM to energize the relays of the second pump. My concern was that if I just use the power out of the pdm to energize the relays without running dedicated grounds back to the battery I think the relays would be energized at all times regardless of the polarity coming from the pdm. IfI ran the grounds and left the original motor hooked up I think it might short the circuit. The easiest thing would be just to tap the power leads from the switch before the pdm to control the new relays but then the new pumps wouldn't have timer control.

I think it is all doable but I also think I am talking myself out of it. Maybe I will just go with plan B at the 2019 boat show. ;)

[trayson]

I get ya now. Sure, adding that 2nd relay now makes more sense. And no biggie on a $10 relay! It's really just the price of the pump and the time involved in basically making your own relay module. If I had the money and time to burn on the project, I'd do it for sure. Just take your time and get the wiring right from the start!

[cpropes2005]

I think cost would be less than $1000 all in which would be worth it for me to have faster ballast but yeah I agree time to work on it is the biggest issue. Boat would be down for at least a couple weeks since I would only have an hour or two here and there to work on it. Would be a good winter project but not something I really want to start in the middle of summer.

[Headric56]

I have a max with g3 ballast. I just completed upgrading that system. Put 2 x ballast kings on the rear (1 per bag) and 2 x puppies on the front bag. Made 2 x relay bases using the recommended relays and fuses. I also made the relay bases with extra relays if i decide to go to 2 x pumps per bag on the rear down the track. Also plumbed in 2 x 400 lbs bags under the center seats. Should be epic on the water ����

[moparsigfan]

I have a max with g3 ballast. I just completed upgrading that system. Put 2 x ballast kings on the rear (1 per bag) and 2 x puppies on the front bag. Made 2 x relay bases using the recommended relays and fuses. I also made the relay bases with extra relays if i decide to go to 2 x pumps per bag on the rear down the track. Also plumbed in 2 x 400 lbs bags under the center seats. Should be epic on the water ����

Hi Headric56
Do you have any shots of your upgraded setup? Also, what were the recommended relays and fuses for the Ballast Kings? Did you upsize the power and ground wires to the pumps? I’m not sure I want to extra pumps but moving to the Ballast Kings seems more reasonable approach.
Thanks in advance


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[Headric56]

Hi Headric56
Do you have any shots of your upgraded setup? Also, what were the recommended relays and fuses for the Ballast Kings? Did you upsize the power and ground wires to the pumps? IÂ’m not sure I want to extra pumps but moving to the Ballast Kings seems more reasonable approach.
Thanks in advance


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Hey I do have some picks will upload them from my PC later. I ran britax fully sealed 40 amp relays with bussman ignition rated 25 amp ato fuses. I ran new supply from the starter motor to a 80 amp ignition protected C/B. I used approx 10mm2 automotive cable. Then from the relay modules to the pumps i used 5mm twin automotive cable. The ground is also 10mm2 automotive cable. The ballast kings seem to be nearly as quick as 2 x puppies.

[parrothd]

Hey I do have some picks will upload them from my PC later. I ran britax fully sealed 40 amp relays with bussman ignition rated 25 amp ato fuses. I ran new supply from the starter motor to a 80 amp ignition protected C/B. I used approx 10mm2 automotive cable. Then from the relay modules to the pumps i used 5mm twin automotive cable. The ground is also 10mm2 automotive cable. The ballast kings seem to be nearly as quick as 2 x puppies.


Did you add a second Ballast king pump per bag? So you have two pumps per bag, one puppy and one king?

From the specs I'm planning just to replace the puppies with ballast king, the draw is only 19 amps, so probably 25 amp on startup.

[parrothd]

Did you add a second Ballast king pump per bag? So you have two pumps per bag, one puppy and one king?

From the specs I'm planning just to replace the puppies with ballast king, the draw is only 19 amps, so probably 25 amp on startup.

Ahh...didn't see the previous post...Nice..

[moparsigfan]

Hey I do have some picks will upload them from my PC later. I ran britax fully sealed 40 amp relays with bussman ignition rated 25 amp ato fuses. I ran new supply from the starter motor to a 80 amp ignition protected C/B. I used approx 10mm2 automotive cable. Then from the relay modules to the pumps i used 5mm twin automotive cable. The ground is also 10mm2 automotive cable. The ballast kings seem to be nearly as quick as 2 x puppies.

Hi Headric56,

Were you able to keep the use of the factory dash switches and fill timers with your new setup? The guys at Wakemakers didn’t know if that was possible. Seemed to think the timers wouldn’t recognize the ballast king pumps. I would have thought it was possible to do by increasing the wire gauges appropriately. I wouldn’t have thought that the timers were so sophisticated as to be monitoring current draw.

Thanks


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[parrothd]

Hi Headric56,

Were you able to keep the use of the factory dash switches and fill timers with your new setup? The guys at Wakemakers didn’t know if that was possible. Seemed to think the timers wouldn’t recognize the ballast king pumps. I would have thought it was possible to do by increasing the wire gauges appropriately. I wouldn’t have thought that the timers were so sophisticated as to be monitoring current draw.

Thanks


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The switches on the dash are just timers, the magic happens with the relay. The timers just turn the relays on/off. The puppies use a 15amp fuse? The kings need 19amp, you'd at least need to upgrade the fuse and check the wire size. My plan is just to swap pumps to the faster pump too.

[Headric56]

The switches on the dash are just timers, the magic happens with the relay. The timers just turn the relays on/off. The puppies use a 15amp fuse? The kings need 19amp, you'd at least need to upgrade the fuse and check the wire size. My plan is just to swap pumps to the faster pump too.

My setup uses the standard switches and the factory timers. The ballast king pulls to much current for the PDM and they do not work. That is why the relay modules are required. That side is pretty much covered by the previous posts in this thread.

Because I have upgraded the size of the rear sacks with probably over winter install another pump per bag on the rear because they are a few minutes slower than the standard center sack

[BigOrange]

I'll be interested in upgrading to the ballast kings at some point in the future as a useful mod. I was curious and actually found it hard to get flowrate comparisons of the Jabsco puppy vs. the ballast king on just wakemakers or Amazon. After digging a little online I came up with 9 GPM for the puppy vs. 16 GPM for the ballast king. So, there should be some good payback there in fill time. But, still about a $1K mod for just material when you consider wiring, fuses, etc.

[The General]

I mentioned the idea of adding another pump per bag to my service guy the other day. His response was that if I did that, I would have to go with a bigger alternator. I backed away slowly, pointed behind him and yelled SQUIRREL!

[larry_arizona]

I mentioned the idea of adding another pump per bag to my service guy the other day. His response was that if I did that, I would have to go with a bigger alternator. I backed away slowly, pointed behind him and yelled SQUIRREL!

Hrmmmm, sounds like a service advisor who doesn’t want the work.

Even if you needed a bigger alternator, and I doubt it, add a bigger alternator, simple bolt on.

I have not looked but imagine a ford alternator is maybe $150-$200.

Rockauto has a 200amp for the 6.2l F250’s for $146.


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[The General]

I thought it was odd as well. I am kind of on the fence still though about wether or not I need to fill faster. The lake we usually ride on has an 8 mph limit until out of the bay, which usually takes about 10 minutes so the bags are over half full. My wife and son are now ropeless so we really only fill once a day. Maybe the money would be better spent on a foil.


Hrmmmm, sounds like a service advisor who doesn’t want the work.

Even if you needed a bigger alternator, and I doubt it, add a bigger alternator, simple bolt on.

I have not looked but imagine a ford alternator is maybe $150-$200.

Rockauto has a 200amp for the 6.2l F250’s for $146.


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[KnoxMojo]

Just a thought, but you could install the Johnson controls ballast pumps in place of the Jabsco Ballast Puppies. I think the puppies are 720 gph and you can install the 810 gph Johnson's with no additional wiring. The only time I have seen you have to run relays and wiring are for the ballast Kings. You could go with the Johnson when it is time to do your impellers, then sell the puppies to offset your cost and come out close to even on the upgrade.

[MLA]

the real world flow difference between the johnson ultra ballast and jabsco ballast puppy is measured in seconds.

[KnoxMojo]

When I was looking at doing this to our Mojo, it was theoretically going to reduce my fill times for the rear 1100s from 11 minutes or so down to around 8.5 minutes or so. Nothing like the ballast kings or G6, but was still around 2-3 minutes faster.

[dakota4ce]

How would it not cut it in half?

I haven’t read every thread detail....disclaimer.

I have G6 on the new Makai and it’s 6 minutes. Freaking sweet.


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[KnoxMojo]

How would it not cut it in half?

I haven’t read every thread detail....disclaimer.

I have G6 on the new Makai and it’s 6 minutes. Freaking sweet.


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90 gph difference wouldn't cut the fill times in half if you are still just using 3 pumps. I made the suggestion of looking at a faster pump as an alternative to installing a 3 more pumps for 2 pumps per bag. Yes, G6 is awesome!!!

[MLA]

Johnson = 12 gpm
Jabsco = 11.3 gpm
1100 lbs = 133 gal

Fill time comes to about 40 seconds difference.

Now, if you fill one sac at a time, you might come to a cumulative total of 2-3 (50% swing) faster. However, if you do like most and fill all ballast at the same time, the time savings can only be factored based on the largest sac. 1100# in this example, so 40 seconds.

[larry_arizona]

Does any wake boat use qty 6 ballast King pumps?


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[MLA]

Does any wake boat use qty 6 ballast King pumps?


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Mastercraft uses a 30GPM impeller pump, but not sure if its just one or two per sac.

[larry_arizona]

Thinking the 2018 SL might run a ballast king pump, according to the owners manual the SL fills faster than the SE,SA and SR.

My SA has puppies.


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2018 fill times

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181224/eee84aafcfcc6bfb6bebd2ad659eb9b5.jpg

2019 fill times

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181224/b5b56365bbb197424633f3ad6d0b9350.jpg

[dakota4ce]

I am pretty sure they’re regular pumps. But I was wrong one time in the 80s. Kings are FAST MAMA TRUCKERS. Big bad pumps.

I threw a king helper pump in my SE and it sounds like a concrete pump running back there.


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[larry_arizona]

9 min fill time is fine with me, but I do like the real time adjustments while on the fly in autowake holding my setting.




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