Surf tab or gate?

[Shoebox]

If you were going to build your own, would you build a surf tab setup, or surf gate setup?

Surf tab would look/act more "stock". But it seems people with factory tab systems often still use a suck gate.

For the effort, would a gate system provide a better wake than tabs?

[mcjimmy33]

DO some researching on independent testing. I saw a report that showed the surf tabs generate more push than the surf gates.

[gregski]

For build your own, I'd go with a gate all the way. Much cheaper, easier faster. I've been able to get better results with the SmartWave/WaveControl tabs but I think it would have been one helluva long trial-n-error process with several scrapped machined parts along the way.

[Shoebox]

For build your own, I'd go with a gate all the way. Much cheaper, easier faster. I've been able to get better results with the SmartWave/WaveControl tabs but I think it would have been one helluva long trial-n-error process with several scrapped machined parts along the way.

Cost-wise, they'd both be about the same. It's true I'd probably have to try a couple different sizes and shapes of plates, but once the hinges are set, it's just a matter of matching hinge holes between plates to swap them out.

Either way, I'll probably start with the Lenco switches with position indicator, then maybe upgrade the controls down the road.

[beat taco]

I know what I'd do. Lol.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180131/10fa905b5672cb017e1a71029aa51d4f.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180131/cf63f179d9073519d9edbf1bcff67b9a.jpg

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

[Shoebox]

Nice. How's the wave? Got any pics from further back?

[beat taco]

I'm pretty happy with it.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180131/8c13c58680da6f6c9c8e1202a7827906.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180131/da7415f2c8406b02daed5afae92feca5.jpg

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

[Shoebox]

Nice, what boat do you have? How do you control the gates?

[beat taco]

I Have a off brand 21' 2013 boat. I use Wakelogic to control it. I'm all in about $1700 with fast actuators. The Wakelogic kit was around $1100 of that.

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[Leebo]

Is this the report?

https://utahwatersports.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/Surf_Study_06.pdf

I’m not sure it’s unbiased. And the push conclusion was with stock ballast.

[Shoebox]

I Have a off brand 21' 2013 boat. I use Wakelogic to control it. I'm all in about $1700 with fast actuators. The Wakelogic kit was around $1100 of that.

Sent from my SM-G930V using TapatalkYeah I looked at that kit. $$$$ I think I'm gonna try basic switches first, then add the Wakelogic maybe down the road.

I bought some aluminum plate to play around with, made these one night when I was bored. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180201/19e5babddbef66502e172e32c74135c6.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180201/68d61999c50cb21f299eff171b086be6.jpg

[beat taco]

My buddy makes a trick three button setup for $450. One button for regular, one for goofy, and one to retract whichever side is out when the rider falls off. The deployed side button stays lit while out. You can also switch from side to side and the opposite side automatically retracts. He's on here somewhere his handle is "hyperryd" he also has write ups on wakegarage.com

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[Shoebox]

I remember seeing that. It's definitely an option.

[mcjimmy33]

Yeah that's it. What is the bias? Do you believe one will get better at a greater rate than the other method with more weight?


Is this the report?

https://utahwatersports.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/Surf_Study_06.pdf

I’m not sure it’s unbiased. And the push conclusion was with stock ballast.

[Hyperryd]

If you go the gate route and want to stay on a budget for the controller, I might be able to help you out. Wake logic is a great controller, but not everybody can afford $1100. I have a controller that uses three one touch buttons to fully deploy, retract and switch sides. There is no gps speed window like the WL, but it is very easy and intuitive to use. Push GOOFY button to to deploy the starboard actuator fully and light up the LED switch then ride goofy. When the rider goes down, push WIPEOUT and any gate deployed retracts so you can drive back easily to pick up the rider without any steering issues. When the rider is ready just press GOOFY again and away you go. Riding regulate works the same way. If while surfing you want to switch sides just press the opposite button and the deployed gate will retract at the same time that the opposite gate is deployed along with the corresponding button lighting up. Like I said it is very simple and easy to use. It comes with the controller and the buttons pre wired. Just hook up power/ground, two wires to each actuator, drill for the buttons and plug them in. $450 plus shipping. PM me if you are interested.
2664626647
Sorry for the old video. I need to make a new one.
https://youtu.be/rXv1TSn3Ogo

[Shoebox]

Yeah that's it. What is the bias? Do you believe one will get better at a greater rate than the other method with more weight?I watched a video on that awhile back. I'll have to find it, but I remember thinking that their methodology in measuring push was a little off, but I don't remember why. If I can find it I'll post it.

The other thing is a lot of those criteria have much more to do with the boat than the surf system. Noise, handling, fuel efficiency, etc. I also wonder what their baseline results would be - i.e., wave without the surf system deployed. Basically which hull makes a better wave.

For my purposes, it was good info, but I don't know how much it applies to deciding which system would be better on a given hull. Unless I felt like drilling craploads of holes in my transom and trying both. [emoji50]

[Hyperryd]

I think it was just a good way for a couple of engineers who are also boat buddies to get to uses 6 fun surf boats in the name of "Science". I need to try that!

[Shoebox]

If you go the gate route and want to stay on a budget for the controller, I might be able to help you out. Wake logic is a great controller, but not everybody can afford $1100. I have a controller that uses three one touch buttons to fully deploy, retract and switch sides. There is no gps speed window like the WL, but it is very easy and intuitive to use. Push GOOFY button to to deploy the starboard actuator fully and light up the LED switch then ride goofy. When the rider goes down, push WIPEOUT and any gate deployed retracts so you can drive back easily to pick up the rider without any steering issues. When the rider is ready just press GOOFY again and away you go. Riding regulate works the same way. If while surfing you want to switch sides just press the opposite button and the deployed gate will retract at the same time that the opposite gate is deployed along with the corresponding button lighting up. Like I said it is very simple and easy to use. It comes with the controller and the buttons pre wired. Just hook up power/ground, two wires to each actuator, drill for the buttons and plug them in. $450 plus shipping. PM me if you are interested.
2664626647
Sorry for the old video. I need to make a new one.
https://youtu.be/rXv1TSn3OgoI remember seeing that on wakegarage. Pretty slick.

Does it only deploy fully, or can you change deployment angle somehow (timer maybe)?

With the gates I can see full deployment being fine, but with tabs I'd like to be able to fine-tune it. Especially with how far down the tab could potentially go. Check out how far down the Mastercraft tabs go.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180201/81f4529b9cb5b1a3aee915cc4f679eae.jpg

[Hyperryd]

It's for full deployment. Great for gates, but not so much for tabs. That is another reason gates are an easier DIY. They work best fully deployed. There are a lot of variables with the tabs. Getting just the right shape, angle and weight combo is typically a lot trickier with tabs than gates.

Can't wait to see it whichever way you go. Who doesn't love drilling holes below the waterline?! LOL

[Shoebox]

It's for full deployment. Great for gates, but not so much for tabs. That is another reason gates are an easier DIY. They work best fully deployed. There are a lot of variables with the tabs. Getting just the right shape, angle and weight combo is typically a lot trickier with tabs than gates.True. I wonder if I could find the sweet spot for the actuator so that it could just be rotated if I went one route and decided to switch to the other at some point.

Are those buttons fixed at that spacing, or are they just mounted separately? Where do you typically mount that controller plate?

[Hyperryd]

I really don't think that sweet spot exists unfortunately. It's all commitment when you drill down under. Think about it 1000 times, measure 20 times and drill once. Then never look back at what you could have done instead. Just work with weight, speed and skill from there. Lol

The buttons are individual. You drill a 3/4" hole where you want them. You do need to have enough room around them if you want to use the decals. The controller board mounts within 3 feet of the buttons since that is the length of the wires for them. If you wanted them longer just let me know. I have seen it mounted it under the dash and in the gunnels depending on the boat. They are all a little different. It really kind of depends on where you decide to mount the buttons.

[Shoebox]

I really don't think that sweet spot exists unfortunately. It's all commitment when you drill down under. Think about it 1000 times, measure 20 times and drill once. Then never look back at what you could have done instead. Just work with weight, speed and skill from there. Lol

The buttons are individual. You drill a 3/4" hole where you want them. You do need to have enough room around them if you want to use the decals. The controller board mounts within 3 feet of the buttons since that is the length of the wires for them. If you wanted them longer just let me know. I have seen it mounted it under the dash and in the gunnels depending on the boat. They are all a little different. It really kind of depends on where you decide to mount the buttons.I need to take some measurements on my boat and maybe make a gate template and take it and the tabs I made and see how it looks.

[Hyperryd]

I've always said there are room for both on a lot of boats and they put up comparable but different waves. It would be interesting to see someone find a way to mount both and then give the rider the option of which one he want to ride. Not thinking both at same time but either or.

Who knows, a fully deployed gate with 30% tab might be a game changer?

[Shoebox]

I've always said there are room for both on a lot of boats and they put up comparable but different waves. It would be interesting to see someone find a way to mount both and then give the rider the option of which one he want to ride. Not thinking both at same time but either or.

Who knows, a fully deployed gate with 30% tab might be a game changer?Yeah, that's basically what some with tabs do when they throw on a suck gate too. But that's a lot of crap hanging off the back of the boat. It would look like shit.

[Hyperryd]

LOL. I didn't say it would be pretty or even work. It's the what if time of year!!

[Shoebox]

Lol true. [emoji23]

[Hyperryd]

Some people just like a challenge!!

[Leebo]

Agree that hull shape and ballast are much more important. I probably spent too much time thinking abt the study bias but…

· Anecdotes suggest that the benefit of Wavecontrol is the speed of deployment and ability to switch sides rather than a substantial “push” improvement over a suckgate.
· For the measurement of “push”, the study used an amateur rider with only the 24’ boats showing a substantial difference.
· If tabs were substantially better, then we should have seen a large difference among all three boat size categories.
· The Malibu MXZ 24’ should have had the same or more push than the Malibu LSV 23’ (rather than a lot less).
· I assumed the “independent” study was funded by Mastercraft (happy to be proven wrong).
· The study says they used stock ballast but omits those actual figures – no one that’s serious about surfing actually uses stock ballast and the study doesn’t mention whether they used the wedge.
· The fuel consumption/rpm figures make me question prop selection.

The chart is for stock weights I pulled from reviews circa 2014.

26651

[Shoebox]

Leebo - good points.

[Shoebox]

If you go the gate route and want to stay on a budget for the controller, I might be able to help you out. Wake logic is a great controller, but not everybody can afford $1100. I have a controller that uses three one touch buttons to fully deploy, retract and switch sides. There is no gps speed window like the WL, but it is very easy and intuitive to use. Push GOOFY button to to deploy the starboard actuator fully and light up the LED switch then ride goofy. When the rider goes down, push WIPEOUT and any gate deployed retracts so you can drive back easily to pick up the rider without any steering issues. When the rider is ready just press GOOFY again and away you go. Riding regulate works the same way. If while surfing you want to switch sides just press the opposite button and the deployed gate will retract at the same time that the opposite gate is deployed along with the corresponding button lighting up. Like I said it is very simple and easy to use. It comes with the controller and the buttons pre wired. Just hook up power/ground, two wires to each actuator, drill for the buttons and plug them in. $450 plus shipping. PM me if you are interested.
2664626647
Sorry for the old video. I need to make a new one.
https://youtu.be/rXv1TSn3OgoDo you happen to know which actuators you used? How far they extend?

[Hyperryd]

Lenco 15129-001 4 1/4" stroke fast actuator - 12 volt - 5/16"

[Shoebox]

Perfect thanks

[Shoebox]

Well you just about had me sold on doing gates. I cut out some cardboard templates and headed down to the marina where my boat is stored.

Because of the lines on my boat, I don't think the gates are going to work, unless I use a huge spacer block for the lower hinge.

Looks like I need to start saving for the Wakelogic controller...
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180202/5b3d12cf3ca1f6b8550dae8fd3b03a79.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180202/d18eea2a46a5f84ddecfc25e4768d688.jpg

[beat taco]

Cut the hdpe to fit the contour

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

[Shoebox]

Cut the hdpe to fit the contour

Sent from my SM-G930V using TapatalkWon't work if the hinges are on 2 different levels.

[dakota4ce]

Won't work if the hinges are on 2 different levels.

Just hinge the lower/longer part. If your HDPE is adequately thick it will work fine?


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[Shoebox]

Just hinge the lower/longer part. If your HDPE is adequately thick it will work fine?


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkI don't know if I can fit 2 hinges on the bottom part, and it would depend on where the actuator mounts to the boat. Could put a twisting stress on it.

I'll have to go fool around with it some more tomorrow.

[oldsmobiledriver]

You can get 4” and 5” tall stainless hinges and just run the one is what he is referring to. And the end of the actuator will twist so if the angle tries to change some it will be ok to a point. If too much the load on the actuator will pop the fuse.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Hyperryd]

Nothing new to see here...2665226653

[Hyperryd]

Just practice on the Nautique parked next to you. Practice makes perfect.

[Shoebox]

This is the web page with that Mastercraft vs Malibu comparison, and the video is at the bottom of the page. It's pretty clear there is a Mastercraft bias.

The push measurements are pretty useless really. Push should probably more accurately be measured by a larger rider seeing how far back on the wave he can ride without losing the wave or pumping.

https://utahwatersports.com/surf-systems/#1469199354742-93465c88-91bb

There was a pretty good discussion of the differences between the different types of systems on the Mastercraft forum, but pretty inconclusive with different experiences from different people.

[Leebo]

The push measurements are pretty useless really. Push should probably more accurately be measured by a larger rider seeing how far back on the wave he can ride without losing the wave or pumping.



I had a very similar thought. Larger advanced rider and progressively give him/her a smaller board.

The other interesting thing is that was done in 2014 and this is the first discussion of it I can find on a forum.

[Shoebox]

I had a very similar thought. Larger advanced rider and progressively give him/her a smaller board.

The other interesting thing is that was done in 2014 and this is the first discussion of it I can find on a forum.Trailblazers, we are! [emoji23]

[Shoebox]

I know what I'd do. Lol.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180131/10fa905b5672cb017e1a71029aa51d4f.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180131/cf63f179d9073519d9edbf1bcff67b9a.jpg

Sent from my SM-G930V using TapatalkWhere did you get your hinges?

[beat taco]

Home Depot. If you google "kcso mb" you will get a a thread with part list. Read part 1 and part 2.

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[Shoebox]

Home Depot. If you google "kcso mb" you will get a a thread with part list. Read part 1 and part 2.

Sent from my SM-G930V using TapatalkThanks, that was great info. Wish the pic links weren't broken.

Does anyone know if the Lenco actuators have built in limit switches?

[beat taco]

It spins freely at the end of its stroke in or out so no need for them. Join the forum and pics will work.

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[Shoebox]

It spins freely at the end of its stroke in or out so no need for them. Join the forum and pics will work.

Sent from my SM-G930V using TapatalkSo if you don't use a momentary switch, the motor will keep running?

[beat taco]

Correct

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[Shoebox]

It's for full deployment. Great for gates, but not so much for tabs. I'm trying to wrap my head around this. If the actuators don't have limit switches, how does your controller cut power once the actuators are extended or retracted? Does it have an onboard timer?

[Hyperryd]

There are no limit switch and the freewheel at the end so no amperage changes. That’s the tough part is one timing the actuator and two turning on a lighted switch that stays on while deployed.

[Shoebox]

So is it possible to change the timing?

[Hyperryd]

I can set it in one second intervals. They can be changed later but it is complicated.

[Shoebox]

Got the template almost worked out. The lower section of the hull is about 6.5 inches, and the nice thing is it's flat, so no spacer needed. Hinges can mount flat to the boat.

The vertical angle seems good, so I need to take my angle finder to be able to replicate it on the other side.

I can trim a hair off the top and it will sit flush with the top of the swim step [emoji106] , and I could add maybe 1/2" to the lower rear to get a little more in the water when it's extended.

Hyperryd, how far in from the edge of the boat did you mount yours? https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180207/f717aaafb39b5dd64f522b48412e5f77.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180207/eb194a3ebffc1607214e7425710f1850.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180207/1e528dfbf4aba66153b34b7693418313.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180207/18ba30fb6a730b3a38c87a167eb4417d.jpg

[Shoebox]

I can set it in one second intervals. They can be changed later but it is complicated.Damn, too bad it couldn't be done in 1/2 second intervals, then figure out a way to make a switch like this have say 2, 2.5, and 3 second positions (or similar, based on the max movement time of the actuator).

I'm good at dreaming up crap I have no solutions for. [emoji23] https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180207/47790694e0d49b8892548d95f5d26dc7.jpg

[beat taco]

Mount them in 1"

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[Shoebox]

Mount them in 1"

Sent from my SM-G930V using TapatalkThere's quite a bit of curve in the corners, I'll have to figure out where the flat ends and mount the hinge(s) there.

[beat taco]

Yes yours is more complicated than mine. The goal was to match the angle of the hull and be back 1". But I was working with a straight line.

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[Shoebox]

Nothing's ever easy.

[Hyperryd]

Cough,signature,cough,cough

[Shoebox]

Cough,signature,cough,cough[emoji23] I don't see signatures on Tapatalk. But so true!

[Shoebox]

I measured the angles. The cardboard gate was set at 10°. The lower hull is 7°, the upper hull varies from 10° to 5° from bottom to top. 10° seems like it will work OK, aesthetically and is about as much angle as I'd want.

Where it goes from flat to curve, top to bottom on the lower hull is a 5° angle (black line on the tape), and is set back several inches from the side of the boat. I need to get hinges and see what and where work best.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180208/407c1ebd119ef41d6e7fd6897b84b80a.jpg

[aerolland]

Well, have you drilled yet? :)

[Shoebox]

Well, have you drilled yet? :)[emoji23] Not yet. I'm leaning a bit toward the gates rather than tabs. Today I'm making a mockup of the gate I'd use as a ghetto gate to see how it will work. Hopefully it'll be quick to make and I can try it out this afternoon.

[Shoebox]

I built this ghetto gate today as a proof of concept. Same size gate as I've been playing with in cardboard. It's 20° out from the side of the boat, and a 10° angle vertically, which is the angle that would work best with my transom and how it would sit level with the swim step when retracted.

With this thing on, I could not turn the boat left at idle, it really wouldn't even drive straight at idle. The wave was huge, but the boat definitely worked harder than it does with the Nauticurl on there.

I'm going to replace the "gate" face with a slightly smaller version and see how it does. Maybe try slightly less out angle.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180515/1e89d308e2b2e867efeac7322a9927c0.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180515/85488145ae54d9f18c9df3f1845fd037.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180515/090e6fe06bc1111dac43f5b4da73a825.jpg

[csteel14golf]

https://youtu.be/peThE-tNJ0g

[KnoxMojo]

Shoebox, are you planning to have that on both sides to extend out? If so, it will really kill your wave. My neighbor attempted that with his boat. It changes the running length of the boat down the side more than you would think. If he only has one on at a time, it works great. But having both on to deploy one side or other really messed up his wave. Just something to consider and be aware of. Malibu\Axis have very abbreviated platforms with molded in areas that the surf gate folds into. If you could make it so it tucks under the platform, it might just work. Best of luck!

[Shoebox]

Shoebox, are you planning to have that on both sides to extend out? If so, it will really kill your wave. My neighbor attempted that with his boat. It changes the running length of the boat down the side more than you would think. If he only has one on at a time, it works great. But having both on to deploy one side or other really messed up his wave. Just something to consider and be aware of. Malibu\Axis have very abbreviated platforms with molded in areas that the surf gate folds into. If you could make it so it tucks under the platform, it might just work. Best of luck!Yes, gates like a Malibu. When retracted it will tuck up against the swim step. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180516/acff8aeb3e26df3429f04442182e216c.jpg

[carport fan]

I'll go with surf tabs!

[Shoebox]

https://youtu.be/peThE-tNJ0gI've seen that. There are a lot of issues with their methodology.

[Shoebox]

I'll go with surf tabs!I'm still undecided. Problem is, I can't do a similar proof of concept with tabs, so it would be jumping in pretty blind. Wish I knew someone with a 2016+ Mondo.

[aerolland]

What if you mocked up a system that clamped onto your swim deck and the center wake plate? Basically create a new temporary transom. Obviously don't move the wake plate once in the water, but that would give you a platform to mount a wooden tab on each side to manually adjust with a turnbuckle or even set it with a angle brace at the house and not adjust once on the water - it would at least give you an idea of how it would displace the water. Might be a lot of work to get that test up and running though...

I could draw up some concepts in CAD if you're interested. I think I have the transom of my OBV modeled already when I was designing my surf platform. Yeah I know, I'm a nerd...

[KnoxMojo]

Wicked wake surf out of Atlanta is/was doing the platform mount surf gates. Not sure what all brands they do. I had them on my Axis A22. You could either use the ratchet straps and turn buckles or through bolt it to the platform. You only have one on at a time.

[Shoebox]

Wicked wake surf out of Atlanta is/was doing the platform mount surf gates. Not sure what all brands they do. I had them on my Axis A22. You could either use the ratchet straps and turn buckles or through bolt it to the platform. You only have one on at a time.That is exactly what I did. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180516/0ddda0571f5d740468d3734b388fab4b.jpg

[Shoebox]

So I tried this gate with the 2419 prop and it really didn't make much difference. I also made a smaller gate face, and tried it out as well.

Both gates were buried under the water at the back of the boat, so I'd have to make it taller to be more effective. I don't want it to stick up past the swim when closed, so I think a gate system is out unless I raise the swim step.

Overall, the Nauticurl made a far better wave and didn't tax the boat as much.

[aerolland]

So the only thing left to do is drill for tabs... 🤣🤣🤣

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[Shoebox]

So the only thing left to do is drill for tabs... 🤣🤣🤣

Sent from my SM-G955U using TapatalkYeah that may be the next step. I've been working on that, kinda... [emoji6]

[Sago1]

For build your own, I'd go with a gate all the way. Much cheaper, easier faster. I've been able to get better results with the SmartWave/WaveControl tabs but I think it would have been one helluva long trial-n-error process with several scrapped machined parts along the way.

Do you have any photos and where you purchased it. I have a 07 outback LSV and use a rhonix wedge which is a overpriced POS. Want to install a powered gate system over the winter. Thanks Dean.