Exile XM9's more mid bass

[russellsmojo]

I know this is a silly question because I am asking to get more mid bass (really just less screaming) out of a horn tower speaker. However, we just do not blare these for the wakeboarder much. All that being said, is there a suggestion to turn some of the horn on the xm9 and make the sound richer and more mid bass? I had the entire system tuned when the 12 sub was installed. There are so many places to adjust that I am curious if a tuner on here could suggest what I adjust.

Do I adjust the gain, the input on eq, the input screws on bottom of eq, the setting for passover on amp? I have 4 xm9's (30.2 amp), 12 sub (javelin), 4 cabins, and newest eq.

[smorris7]

I know this is a silly question because I am asking to get more mid bass (really just less screaming) out of a horn tower speaker. However, we just do not blare these for the wakeboarder much. All that being said, is there a suggestion to turn some of the horn on the xm9 and make the sound richer and more mid bass? I had the entire system tuned when the 12 sub was installed. There are so many places to adjust that I am curious if a tuner on here could suggest what I adjust.

Do I adjust the gain, the input on eq, the input screws on bottom of eq, the setting for passover on amp? I have 4 xm9's (30.2 amp), 12 sub (javelin), 4 cabins, and newest eq.

Remove the logo plate on the back of the xm9. There is a crossover switch. Flip the switch for a toned down version. That simple.


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[russellsmojo]

I did that when I installed. Hoping for still more mid less high.


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[David Analog]

Russ,
You can't really equalize a boost in the midbass without seriously compromising the power handling. Maybe you can EQ just a little more midbass that is simultaneously offset by the raising the highpass filter. But there isn't a lot to be gained here addressing the midbass.
You have far more latitude in attenuating the horn tweeter. As you have discovered, the switch is limited in the amount of treble attenuation you'll get. You could change out the speaker's internal resister to a larger value and get more treble attenuation, but at some point this re-biases the passive crossover network and would have really negative consequences on the sound quality. So these type circuits are usually limited to about +/- 2 dB, a modest change, before the change becomes noticeable in other unwanted areas. This leaves the option of active equalization for the tower speakers, specifically to address the treble. If you don't have an EQ, strongly consider one. But you'll want to impact the tower speakers without impacting the in-boat zone. This can be done with the Wetsounds WS420SQ dual zone EQ or with a hide-away EQ like an Audio Control that is dedicated to the tower only. Keep in mind that any equalization that alters the tower speakers more to your liking (warmer) will absolutely reduce the peak output and therefore the projection range. That's okay if your interest is more for near field listening. However, you can defeat the tower EQ at any time and restore the speaker to its original balance and output.

[russellsmojo]

Russ,
You can't really equalize a boost in the midbass without seriously compromising the power handling. Maybe you can EQ just a little more midbass that is simultaneously offset by the raising the highpass filter. But there isn't a lot to be gained here addressing the midbass.
You have far more latitude in attenuating the horn tweeter. As you have discovered, the switch is limited in the amount of treble attenuation you'll get. You could change out the speaker's internal resister to a larger value and get more treble attenuation, but at some point this re-biases the passive crossover network and would have really negative consequences on the sound quality. So these type circuits are usually limited to about +/- 2 dB, a modest change, before the change becomes noticeable in other unwanted areas. This leaves the option of active equalization for the tower speakers, specifically to address the treble. If you don't have an EQ, strongly consider one. But you'll want to impact the tower speakers without impacting the in-boat zone. This can be done with the Wetsounds WS420SQ dual zone EQ or with a hide-away EQ like an Audio Control that is dedicated to the tower only. Keep in mind that any equalization that alters the tower speakers more to your liking (warmer) will absolutely reduce the peak output and therefore the projection range. That's okay if your interest is more for near field listening. However, you can defeat the tower EQ at any time and restore the speaker to its original balance and output.

David, would changing the amp from hf to full bring in the full sound? What about the bass boost? I have the latest exile eq. I was going to mess with setting them up like you would a speaker that you want full sound from. I do not really get why such a large surface area speaker is only good at blaring high notes? I am less concerned with range at wakeboard lengths. More concerned with good cove, surf, and anchored sound.


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[David Analog]

Russ,
First, these comments would apply to any 8" HLCD tower speaker regardless of brand. So I am not picking on Exile. I'm just giving you straight information.
Sure, an 8" speaker would normally have decent midbass depth. But after you load the pod with the deep driver displacement, there's hardly any air space remaining inside that bowl/pod. And the internal pod displacement has as much to do with the midbass as does the speaker size, actually more. Could the same speaker produce far better midbass in a pod four times as large? Certainly. But nobody wants that. So really, the speaker determines the low frequency roll-off point far more than the amplifier active crossover cut-off point. The active crossover is only mirroring the speaker's natural response in order to protect the speaker from damage. If you remove the highpass filter you will NOT get more midbass extension but you will seriously reduce the speaker's power handling. In the same respect, applying the bass boost is the worst possible approach to this issue. So either change is begging for a speaker failure.
The other part of this is that the horn tweeter is so dominant, which in part forms your perception of the lack of midbass. A horn loaded compression tweeter is at least 10 dB more efficient than an 8" midbass counterpart. The speakers internal passive crossover can moderate some of this....however, if they were to totally bridal the tweeter it would no longer give you the extra output which translates directly into distance projection.
You are probably a candidate for more of a surf speaker than an HLCD. But the right EQ can deliver a similar softer sound of a surf speaker. And like I mentioned, the EQ is defeatable at any time in order to restore the HLCD sound for max projection.

[russellsmojo]

Russ,
First, these comments would apply to any 8" HLCD tower speaker regardless of brand. So I am not picking on Exile. I'm just giving you straight information.
Sure, an 8" speaker would normally have decent midbass depth. But after you load the pod with the deep driver displacement, there's hardly any air space remaining inside that bowl/pod. And the internal pod displacement has as much to do with the midbass as does the speaker size, actually more. Could the same speaker produce far better midbass in a pod four times as large? Certainly. But nobody wants that. So really, the speaker determines the low frequency roll-off point far more than the amplifier active crossover cut-off point. The active crossover is only mirroring the speaker's natural response in order to protect the speaker from damage. If you remove the highpass filter you will NOT get more midbass extension but you will seriously reduce the speaker's power handling. In the same respect, applying the bass boost is the worst possible approach to this issue. So either change is begging for a speaker failure.
The other part of this is that the horn tweeter is so dominant, which in part forms your perception of the lack of midbass. A horn loaded compression tweeter is at least 10 dB more efficient than an 8" midbass counterpart. The speakers internal passive crossover can moderate some of this....however, if they were to totally bridal the tweeter it would no longer give you the extra output which translates directly into distance projection.
You are probably a candidate for more of a surf speaker than an HLCD. But the right EQ can deliver a similar softer sound of a surf speaker. And like I mentioned, the EQ is defeatable at any time in order to restore the HLCD sound for max projection.

David, thanks for the input. I get everything you are saying and had kind of came to that conclusion. It's kind of funny to have 2k in speakers that I leave turned down (via eq) most of the time and bang my head on!


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[trayson]

I am wondering where you have your tower speakers crossed over at. is it possible that you have them crossed over too high?

Yeah, the exile zone control is going to adjust the midbass and midrange and treble for your towers and your cabins simultaneously. Like David said, the WS420sq does let you adjust your equalizer settings of the towers separate from the cabins. This is good, because I've seen 6.5" cabins getting maxed out with all the midbass they can handle while the towers are begging for more. (admittedly the cabins SHOULD be crossed over higher than the towers and theoretically you could turn up your midbass on your whole system via the exile eq and the cabins shouldn't be affected adversely if they are crossed over correctly. if the EQ is boosting frequencies the cabins can't handle, they should be crossed over so it's filtered out.

[mmandley]

I know this is a silly question because I am asking to get more mid bass (really just less screaming) out of a horn tower speaker. However, we just do not blare these for the wakeboarder much. All that being said, is there a suggestion to turn some of the horn on the xm9 and make the sound richer and more mid bass? I had the entire system tuned when the 12 sub was installed. There are so many places to adjust that I am curious if a tuner on here could suggest what I adjust.

Do I adjust the gain, the input on eq, the input screws on bottom of eq, the setting for passover on amp? I have 4 xm9's (30.2 amp), 12 sub (javelin), 4 cabins, and newest eq.

As you have read there is no Real way to make the XM9 have more mid bass or accomplish what your truly after.

What you should do before changing your cross over settings and everything being suggested is Call Brian at Exile. Tell him i sent you over and you want to see about working a deal to change those XM9s to the Surf 9s.

These are a solid woofer and a separate tweeter and have a lot better ability to supply you the mid bass you are looking for. it will have a much richer and fuller sound then the XM9s but you won't be as loud at wake board distance.

The switch on the XM9 was designed originally for when some people who had tower at the back of the cabin vs those who have the tower more over the windshield. It would allow the speakers to not sound as harsh to the riders in the boat with a forward tower vs a rearward tower.

Anyhow before you go changing all your settings, call Brian tell him I sent you and see if you can work something out on a swap to SXTQ9s, they are a cheaper speaker by price so he might be willing to help you out.

[russellsmojo]

Thanks Mike! I was thinking about such a suggestion.


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[David Analog]

There's a speaker design principle called "Hoffman's Iron Law":
1) Bass Extension.
2) Efficiency.
3) Small Enclosure.
Hoffman's Iron Law states that you can have any two of the above three attributes in any speaker. But not all three.
A speaker that can go deep in a very small enclosure will be terribly inefficient...which isn't going to work in a tower speaker that needs
high efficiency to project over distance and overcome high noise levels.
Could you get high efficiency AND decent bass extension in a single speaker? Sure, if the speaker enclosure is larger than a 5 gallon drum. But that won't pass on a wake tower.
As mentioned before, tower pods are mostly filled with the speaker displacement and that leaves very little interior air space. Imagine blowing air across a soda bottle. As a resonant chamber, it provides a certain lower tone. Now when the bottle is half filled with liquid, and has a smaller volume of air mass, it now produces a distinctly higher tone. That's what is going on inside a tower speaker.
So the only way you will truly get deeper midbass extension is with a larger speaker in a larger pod.
Can you equalize the speaker to sound differently? Yes and No. You can re-shape the sound by attenuating the tweeter, BUT, you cannot accentuate the midbass extension or output before you begin running into severe distortion and risks. Why? That air mass inside can only be rarified or compressed to a very small degree before the resistance becomes virtually unmovable. At that point, trying to drive the speaker harder creates all kinds of thermal and mechanical stresses on the speaker, not to mention distortion. If the speaker already has an inherent resistance to playing lower, then additional power going in will be wasted, as a very, very small portion of that added power (or equalization) will result in any audible difference. The bulk of that excess power (or equalization) becomes destructive. So be careful with equalization, especially at the lower end.

[trayson]

There's a speaker design principle called "Hoffman's Iron Law":
1) Bass Extension.
2) Efficiency.
3) Small Enclosure.
Hoffman's Iron Law states that you can have any two of the above three attributes in any speaker. But not all three.
A speaker that can go deep in a very small enclosure will be terribly inefficient...which isn't going to work in a tower speaker that needs
high efficiency to project over distance and overcome high noise levels.
Could you get high efficiency AND decent bass extension in a single speaker? Sure, if the speaker enclosure is larger than a 5 gallon drum. But that won't pass on a wake tower.
As mentioned before, tower pods are mostly filled with the speaker displacement and that leaves very little interior air space. Imagine blowing air across a soda bottle. As a resonant chamber, it provides a certain lower tone. Now when the bottle is half filled with liquid, and has a smaller volume of air mass, it now produces a distinctly higher tone. That's what is going on inside a tower speaker.
So the only way you will truly get deeper midbass extension is with a larger speaker in a larger pod.
Can you equalize the speaker to sound differently? Yes and No. You can re-shape the sound by attenuating the tweeter, BUT, you cannot accentuate the midbass extension or output before you begin running into severe distortion and risks. Why? That air mass inside can only be rarified or compressed to a very small degree before the resistance becomes virtually unmovable. At that point, trying to drive the speaker harder creates all kinds of thermal and mechanical stresses on the speaker, not to mention distortion. If the speaker already has an inherent resistance to playing lower, then additional power going in will be wasted, as a very, very small portion of that added power (or equalization) will result in any audible difference. The bulk of that excess power (or equalization) becomes destructive. So be careful with equalization, especially at the lower end.

Isn't it also correct that you can cheat on #3 a little by adding polyfill?

[David Analog]

Isn't it also correct that you can cheat on #3 a little by adding polyfill?

If the subwoofer enclosure is just shy of the ideal air mass, then the right amount and density of insulation (polyester polyfill or other) can simulate a slightly larger enclosure...by converting acoustic energy into thermal energy that is then dissipated.
However, in this tiny tower pod it won't make any noticeable difference in the above sense. But it can be useful in attenuating the reflections (standing waves) from the interior of the pod. And that reflection can be very coincidental at a single frequency since the pod is round in shape. In other words, all reflections being of an equal distance. In this case, try a small sheet of 1" thick polyester batting (not the loose fill) around the pod interior. But easy does it on the quantity.

[viking]

If the subwoofer enclosure is just shy of the ideal air mass, then the right amount and density of insulation (polyester polyfill or other) can simulate a slightly larger enclosure...by converting acoustic energy into thermal energy that is then dissipated.
However, in this tiny tower pod it won't make any noticeable difference in the above sense. But it can be useful in attenuating the reflections (standing waves) from the interior of the pod. And that reflection can be very coincidental at a single frequency since the pod is round in shape. In other words, all reflections being of an equal distance. In this case, try a small sheet of 1" thick polyester batting (not the loose fill) around the pod interior. But easy does it on the quantity.

If I remember right my bullet 770 pods a few years ago came with these already in them!! :)

[David Analog]

If I remember right my bullet 770 pods a few years ago came with these already in them!! :)

Yes, they did. The Bullet HollowPoint dealer usually added that touch. And they often came with a spiral of solvent based foam that did a great job of damping the aluminum enclosure. Many Wetsounds tower speakers also contain an interior wrap of polyester batting.

Although polyfill, in one form or the other, can help with the internal standing waves, which helps the mids, there is a reason why polyfill will not change the appearance to a larger enclosure in tower pods. In a subwoofer enclosure the driver displacement might only be 10% of the entire enclosure gross internal displacement. So if the enclosure is 10 to 15% shy of the ideal target, the polyfill can make a small difference. However, in a tower pod with an HLCD driver, the driver can easily displace more than 1/2 of the pod's total internal volume. So a little polyfill won't make a dent in the problem in this case.

[Brianinpdx]

Russ - Your faced with a fairly common debate on Horn versus non horn tower speaker setups. SURF versus WAKE.

The XM9 actually has 14% more mid cone area than other brands that I've seen.It's kinda unique in that nothing about it is standard. We molded the housing into the cone parts to actually be part of the enclosure itself and becomes more efficient from an internal space point of view. However, it's still a horn speaker designed to project high frequency out to a long distance rider. Period. The XM9 also has a horn attenuation switch built into it that allows a 1.5db. I'd start there. Engaging that will make it sound more surf like.

Also confirm you amp settings on the XM30.2 -- HF (high freq), crossover @80hz and gain ~20%. You should be money.

The total sound field in any given boat is the sum of all three zones (Tower / Cabin / Sub). If I remember right, you haven't upgraded your cabin speakers right? Doing so will help balance out the dynamic range of your entire boat. Often times when one zone is lacking, the other zones feel over emphasized.


Lastly- if you confirm your tower tuning and think, "hey this still pretty bright..." contact the office and we can arrange to swap you into the Surf version of that speaker. It sounds fantastic up closer to the boat, wider high freq dispersion and over all blends better with the other 2 zones.

On my boat, I run the Hybrid setup that combines both wake and surf style speakers. That might be a good option to but I'd def like to see your cabin get upgraded before any of that talk.

Hit me up. you've got my digits I think?

-Brian

[russellsmojo]

Bust out another thousand. Haha!! I am going check out tuning and jam it all weekend and then decide next step.


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[dusty2221]

Are you going to be on Texoma Sunday by chance Russell? You can take a listen to my surfs and we could make some adjustments to yours.

[russellsmojo]

I will hit you up if we get up there. I am out of commission for lake sports ( have stitches on shoulder) until next weekend. May do some island time though. Speaking of the island we pulled a beached black and green mojo off the island Sunday of Memorial Day weekend. He was beached like a whale. Ever seen a black/green mojo on texoma before?


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