is 230 watts enough

[casmith71]

i just ordered a pair of samson s7hd's. i really dont wanna shell out $500+ for a new amp until maybe next year. so my question is just that is 230 watts enough? my current tower amp is 4ch that will push 230 wattsx2 if bridged. the s7hd's are 250 watts rms. i know they can handle and really need more but will they sound punie with 20 watts less than rms? the towers are the only thing running off of this amp. i also have a ws420 so i can tune it if the lower watts affect one aspect over another.

[KG's Supra24]

I think anything near a clean 200w would be fine. The 4 speaker Exile bundle pushes approx 210 to each of the 9's for reference.

[MLA]

The wattage is fine, but I would spend a little more and get the 8" version, seriously! There will not be an audible difference between 230 and 250 watts, besides, 250W rms is a little ambitious for a 6.5" speaker anyway. The amp, how its set up and tuned will have more to do with how the speaker sounds, then wattage thats below the advertised spec.

[casmith71]

I think anything near a clean 200w would be fine. The 4 speaker Exile bundle pushes approx 210 to each of the 9's for reference.

that's a good point. didn't think about the exile bundle watts

[casmith71]

The wattage is fine, but I would spend a little more and get the 8" version, seriously! There will not be an audible difference between 230 and 250 watts, besides, 250W rms is a little ambitious for a 6.5" speaker anyway. The amp, how its set up and tuned will have more to do with how the speaker sounds, then wattage thats below the advertised spec.

I really wanted the 8's but after new cabin speakers, wifes new board, ws 420, new sub amp, and complete overhaul of all the wiring, budget just didn't allow the extra $250. next year I will probably get the bundle with the 8's and the amp to add to the s7's. im going from 4 6.5 coax with about 38w each to two 6.5 HLCD's with 230w each so I would hope it makes a huge difference.

[MLA]

Huge difference for sure. Those are unbridled compression drivers with very little mid-bass to add balance. At higher levels, they will be be very dominate for any rear seated passenger.

[casmith71]

So is it better next year to go with the xm9 or the 9q. Paired with the s7's?


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[MLA]

neither. If you want a 4 pod setup, start building it now with a single pair of the 8". Im not a fan of mixing different size speaker as it requires different amping. Meaning, you would need 2 chnls for the small pair and 2 more amp chnls for the larger pair. They dont use/sum/divide the wattage evenly as well as you have to tune to the smaller speaker when they are wired together on a single chnl. At that point, you negate some of the advantage of having the larger speaker to begin with. To take it further, you dont want to mix a traditional coaxial speaker with an HLCD.

[casmith71]

So what about the smt65. I thought a pair of hlcd and a pair of coax was the same as the hybrid package. We surf and wakeboard about 50/50 so I really didn't know which way to lean vs the two. I figured hlcd this year and coax next year. I plan on buying another amp next year so keeping my old one plus a new is an option if needed


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[David Analog]

71,
MLA is giving you some pretty darn solid advice. And I would also strongly recommend staying away from any/all 6.5" HLCDs. They all are hideously bright and strident with very little lower midrange or midbass to offer balance. There was a time that if you wanted an HLCD in order to get better projection to a rider, you didn't have many choices beyond a smaller 6.5" version. But today most of those same manufacturers have discontinued their 6.5" HLCD offerings for good reason. The only decent sounding 6.5" HLCD (to my ears) would be the Kicker HLCD with two pair of 6.5" midbass drivers. So in order to get the surface area of an 8", great projection, and a more balanced sound with the Kicker HLCD, you needed to double up on the midbass drivers and have six tower pods. So my only exception would not be a single pair of 6.5" HLCD speakers.
Also, as mentioned above, mixing smaller and larger, or conventional with HLCD on the tower, will not give you the equivalent output per your total speaker and amplifier investment. Yes, you save now going with the lower cost 6.5", but in the long run, it's not the best investment. Wait and step up to the 8".

[David Analog]

71,
Maybe a different way of saying it would be....
An 8" tower speaker will play equally as loud as a 6.5" with one/half the amplifier power. Or, you could say that when comparing the 6.5" to the 8", the 6.5" will require twice the amplifier power to equal the 8" output.
Regardless of the power, there is nothing you can do to make a 6.5" have the same midbass extension as an 8" in a slightly larger pod.

[casmith71]

are 6.5 comparable to a traditional PA speaker? is that the kind of sound im going to get for $850 bucks? im ok with it being bright if that's the main difference between the two. the speakers have already shipped so I would have to pay return shipping plus the $250 difference for the 8's. the only reason I ordered the Samson over exile was bc exile no longer offers the xm7. didn't I see somewhere that brian gives forum members a discount? if so that could offset some of the cost difference.
I know the 8's are better, that's probably why they cost so much more, but are the 6.5s really that bad? you guys are making me feel like I just flushed $850 down the drain, lol.
what if I stick with the s7's and next year add the smt65 from Samson with a completely different amp running them than the s7's? will the s7's completely drown out the smt's? will the smt's sdd more mid/bass than the s7's at surf distance?
sorry for all the questions but im already $1500 in to this which is a lot for me. thanks for all the reply's

[KG's Supra24]

If you paid $850 ... I know you don't want to hear this ... but you really could do better for one pair of tower speakers.

I think the WS Icon8 is priced at 750 before any forum discounts. The Exile SXQ9 is 900 before forum discount. Both of those will end up cheaper than the $850.

I'm not sure how much difference you will notice at the end of the line on 6.5" HLCD vs 8" coaxial but your nearfield (in boat and surf) will be much more enjoyable. It will also provide you a platform to build from if you plan on adding another pair next year. With the 6.5", you leave yourself scratching your head on how to upgrade next year.

If you are worried about wake distance, the advertised prices on the HLCD's are 1050 Wetsounds and 1100 Exile .... I'd think a forum discount would take care of 100 of the 250'ish difference.

Tough call, especially since you have purchased, but I'd consider it if it were me.

[MLA]

but are the 6.5s really that bad?

By todays standards, yes. 75% of what I install, are 10" HLCD Rev-10's. I dont even demo 6.5" coaxial tower speakers any more because a single pair of 8" gets us similar output with better mid-bass for about the same price as 2 pair of 6.5".


what if I stick with the s7's and next year add the smt65 from Samson with a completely different amp running them than the s7's? will the s7's completely drown out the smt's? will the smt's sdd more mid/bass than the s7's at surf distance?

In reality, not really. The HLCD is still going to be the dominate speaker. Yes, you are adding a 2nd pair of 6.5 drivers, but keep in mind that they come with a 1" tweeter thats also going to be contributing to the output of the higher frequencies. So the mid-bass return on investment, is going to be minimal.

[casmith71]

is there a discount code or do I just call brian? so a pair of 8" coaxal is better than a pair of 6.5 hlcd? the main reason I looked past the icon 8 was bc I wanted an hlcd plus I think the exile's are better looking.

[jstenger]

you guys are making me feel like I just flushed $850 down the drain, lol.

Sorry, but that is because you did.

[casmith71]

Sorry, but that is because you did.

I guess my pockets just aren't as deep as others, nice to hear how to spend my money.
I know the 8's are better, that has been made VERY clear.
all I really wanted was a good quality hlcd, not coaxal.
all I was concerned about was if 230w was enough, not if I made a good or bad choice in speakers.

[jstenger]

I guess we hit a nerve. You have to get used to it. It is all in good fun. Especially when it is about audio. We ALL love spending other people's money on this forum.

[David Analog]

Quote (filling in a few blanks), "Are 6.5 HLCDs comparable to a traditional PA speaker? Is that the kind of sound I'm going to get?"

A 6.5" HLCD is not in the ballpark with a good open air speaker. A Mackey or Pevey or JBL PA speaker typically has a 12" or 15" woofer to mate with the horn tweeter. The enclosure is the size of a 50 gallon drum and it's bass-reflex. So there is much better balance with a typical horn speaker.
A horn-only voice-only PA speaker? No. It's not near that bad. But it can be far more piercing on the highs.
But to put this into perspective....the horn tweeter used in a 6.5" HLCD is at least 10 dB more sensitive than the 6.5" cone speaker. What kind of difference is 10 dB? The same as 10 TIMES amplifier power, OR, perceived as at least twice as loud. So could they tame that horn a little? Sure. But usually they don't. It's unbridaled and angry. If they wanted balanced sound they wouldn't use a horn. Just about any off-the-shelf conventional 1" dome tweeter will keep up with a 6.5" cone speaker. But the goal is maximum peak output for maximum distance projection. And sound quality totally takes a back seat. Brand really doesn't matter. The train has already left the station a long time ago on 6.5" HLCDs.
Classifieds are full of 6.5" product. Savings is important but it's far more expensive to do it twice.
Those trying to push you in the direction of an 8" tower speaker, by any brand, are just looking out for you.

[KG's Supra24]

I was staying away from the 6.5" HLCD because when I first read, I thought you had them, and assumed you got a great deal on them because, as mentioned, the 6.5" HLCD is mostly a thing of the past. There is a reason Exile doesn't still sell the 6.5"

I only spoke up when you mentioned the $850 and that they were returnable.

ON HLCD vs Coaxial ... This year there might be a little less sound at the end of the rope, MAYBE. Next year, if you plan to go to 4 speakers, you will be way behind output wise with the 4 6.5" HLCD than where you would be with 4 8" coaxials, for the same or less money.

Seems everyone gets defensive over budget but members aren't asking to make you spend all your money or brag about deep pockets .... it's because most of us have went through upgrades where we ended up selling most of what we bought the year before.

Your question ... yes 230w is enough to power anything from coaxials 6.5" to 8" HLCD.

If you are set on Exile HLCD, I'd bet you never think about the extra $150, at most, once you hung the XM9's on your tower.

[David Analog]

Yes, and we all have lots and lots of advice when it's other peoples money and other people are doing the work.

[casmith71]

if I return the s7's and order the sxt9q's can I add the xm9's next year? or do I have to go back with sxt9's?
or should I skip the sxt's all together and fork it out for the xm9's?

im not mad at any members. most of the replies have been positive, guess im more mad at myself for not asking this before I ordered.
trying to weigh out if I really wanna go through all that it will take to return and order new plus the $ difference.
it seemed just a few years ago the xm7's were all anyone could talk about and how much they loved them. I wonder if that would still be the case if the 8's and 10's hadn't came out? if they come out with 12's and 14's will the 8's and 10's no longer be sufficient? how many ppl upgraded from xm7's to xm9's just bc they were the latest and greatest and how many did it bc they were not satisfied with the xm7's?

[KG's Supra24]

I was not satisfied with my 6.5" HLCD's. (disclosure: they weren't exile) I couldn't hear them that well at wake range and they were super bright up close.

If you do Q9's this year, you are kinda pushing yourself into Q9's next year. If youwant HLCD's ... id spend the extra
$150 (max) to get into the XM9's this year.

[David Analog]

if I return the s7's and order the sxt9q's can I add the xm9's next year? or do I have to go back with sxt9's?
or should I skip the sxt's all together and fork it out for the xm9's?

im not mad at any members. most of the replies have been positive, guess im more mad at myself for not asking this before I ordered.
trying to weigh out if I really wanna go through all that it will take to return and order new plus the $ difference.
it seemed just a few years ago the xm7's were all anyone could talk about and how much they loved them. I wonder if that would still be the case if the 8's and 10's hadn't came out? if they come out with 12's and 14's will the 8's and 10's no longer be sufficient? how many ppl upgraded from xm7's to xm9's just bc they were the latest and greatest and how many did it bc they were not satisfied with the xm7's?


The reality is that at one point all we had was 6.5" HLCDs and the hype was way over the top. They were represented as sound quality speakers. People soon found out different. You could line up every brand of Proaxial 6.5" HLCD side by side and although they all sounded slightly different the truth is they all sounded equally bad. Hybrid/Mix/Double-Up packages came along as a sort of an apology and a fix by averaging harsh but louder HLCDs with warmer coaxials that had less output. Ultimately the real and simple solution was a larger and more balanced speaker. There's a very small production cost difference between a 6.5" and 8" HLCD. And it was no longer cost effective to produce two product tiers when one was so inferior.

[casmith71]

update: I have spoke to Samson and I am returning the s7's. I have been talking with Brian all weekend and decided to go with a pair of xm9's. Brian is great. he really sets the highest standards of customer service. thanks for everyones help.

[KG's Supra24]

Another world problem solved. :p

Congrats, I think you will be glad in the long run.