PDA

View Full Version : Surf Boat for $40k



sivs1
02-12-2016, 10:50 AM
Wanted to get your thoughts on this, basically, you go to the boat show and look at all the boats, one would be lucky to get a surf boat for under $60k. Thinking back to the Moomba Boomerang, fabulous ski boat, but that was about it, bare bones boat that skied really well and was cheap.

Is it possible to build a bare bones surf boat and sell it for under $40k? thinking along the lines of the Boomerang but 20+ years later. Is there a market for this or is it the used market?

kaneboats
02-12-2016, 11:16 AM
Those days are gone.

trayson
02-12-2016, 11:52 AM
I think there could be a market for something like that. They are TRYING to do that with the Wake Tractor v-drive. But the radical funky layout isn't going to do it for most.

But there's kind of a 'bare minimum' that I think is needed for the typical wake boat.

So I'd think if someone did it, it'd look like this:

21 Foot Hull
325 Engine
Acme 537 prop
Factory rear 1100's or 900's
Factory 1180 under a playpen
Analogue Gauges
Perfect pass wakeboard pro (or equivalent)
Basic flip up bolster seat
basic tower with a pair of wakeboard racks


I guess I'm picturing something equivalent to a 2008 LSV but with a playpen bow so you can have a factory gravity bag. But maybe it just can't be done for that price anymore?

I mean, the Moombas start at $60k realistically. And the MC NXT starts at $50k not including a trailer and the trailer is $3600.

KG's Supra24
02-12-2016, 11:57 AM
Yea ... I'd call a Moomba pretty stripped down. Mojo base is 63k I think.

If you can move all the boats you can manufacture at 60k+ ... why tighten your margins. I don't see 20k worth of costs that could be stripped from a Moomba and still have a functional boat.

I understand the sentiment from the consumer standpoint but unfortunately easy financing and longer terms have increased prices on all these types of items. A Cadillac Escalade is a 100k vehicle ... wth???

kaneboats
02-12-2016, 11:58 AM
Wake Tractor? I had never heard of that thing. Wow. That is REALLY ugly.

http://www.austinboats.com/pre_owned_detail.asp?veh=4510106

sandm
02-12-2016, 12:02 PM
someone could, but won't. the market has dictated that people will pay 60k+ to get an entry level surfboat.
I believe that someone like bayliner could if they wanted to.

trayson
02-12-2016, 12:04 PM
I suppose if someone really wanted to strip things down to a basic level to create a surf monster for cheap, it'd have to be more like this:


20 to 21' deeper v-hull (more like a Tige or a Centurion).
Big rear lockers with 1100's and throw over the side Tsunami pumps.
Basic walkthrough bow with a big walkway sack that fills with the over the side tsunami pump. (or even a closed bow!)
No PP
No Tower
Basic surf platform
Basic driver's seat (no flip up bolster)
factory installed ghetto gate or Velcro side wedge
No stereo
Basic 5.7L V8
Propped for surfing
rear bench seat in front of the v-drive
Single solid cover over the engine and both storage lockers
Hydroturf covering the sundeck/engine cover
No flooring except textured finished fiberglass
Cheap $15 clamp on the windshield mirror

trayson
02-12-2016, 12:06 PM
Wake Tractor? I had never heard of that thing. Wow. That is REALLY ugly.

http://www.austinboats.com/pre_owned_detail.asp?veh=4510106

I saw one in person. I believe the term you're looking for is FUGLY!!!

It's basically a v-drive version of something like a sea-doo sportster! WTF?!!?!?

trayson
02-12-2016, 12:15 PM
someone could, but won't. the market has dictated that people will pay 60k+ to get an entry level surfboat.
I believe that someone like bayliner could if they wanted to.

Also, when you can buy a nice used boat that's 5 years old or newer for $35 to $40 that's decently outfitted, then why care about the price of new. Browse through only inboards and look at what you can get for $30k to $40k that's less than 5 years old and there's some decent boats out there. A22's, OBV, LSV's, XLV's, Tige R20... Lots of late model boats that would make a person happy for $40k and under.

sivs1
02-12-2016, 12:33 PM
Those days are gone.

That's my thought, those days you could get a Bayliner for $8k and now they're over $20k.

MC NXT22 was priced out at $76k here in UT for boat show pricing. what's the point of a 50k boat optioned out to 76k? I thought the comparable Craz, Supreme and MB 22's were nicer.

CRAZy440
02-12-2016, 01:34 PM
That's my thought, those days you could get a Bayliner for $8k and now they're over $20k.

MC NXT22 was priced out at $76k here in UT for boat show pricing. what's the point of a 50k boat optioned out to 76k? I thought the comparable Craz, Supreme and MB 22's were nicer.

I totally agree. The NXT had good fit and finish but is not as nice at the Craz. The price shot up past the Craz very fast with the trailer and minimal add-on (2 speakers and surf tabs). Plus it was so plain inside, I understand its suppose to me a base model but still it should look somewhat fun/good at 55-60,000. Lastly, I couldn't stand the NXT bumper style that kinda swoops up and down. :p

DFTR Josh
02-12-2016, 03:56 PM
I had a couple come last night and their intention was to buy the NXT22 and with the information I provided they really like the Mondo now.

zabooda
02-12-2016, 05:21 PM
Easy to do and once it is done they will dominate the market. Thinking you have to automate the process more than what it is now and the labor market would have to move to a foreign country. Sound familiar? Follow the automobile industry. The risk is sales numbers aren't as high as autos and economy changes would really affect the industry. Like autos, the colors and options would be limited.

trayson
02-12-2016, 05:27 PM
Easy to do and once it is done they will dominate the market. Thinking you have to automate the process more than what it is now and the labor market would have to move to a foreign country. Sound familiar? Follow the automobile industry. The risk is sales numbers aren't as high as autos and economy changes would really affect the industry. Like autos, the colors and options would be limited.

Makes sense. sell boats more like cars. Just a handful of standardized color packages. group options into packages (they already do this to some degree, but honestly boats are so customizable that they're all pretty much one off boats).

Really aside from Hull shape and a few basic options on layout (playpen bow vs. walkthrough) there's not a lot to wake boats that couldn't be made "vanilla" if that meant dropping the prices.

Just pick the least expensive bow option, and offer 3 color choices and be done with it. Choice 1: Blue/Gray. Choice 2: Red/Gray Choice 3: Black Gray.

CRAZy440
02-12-2016, 05:56 PM
Makes sense. sell boats more like cars. Just a handful of standardized color packages. group options into packages (they already do this to some degree, but honestly boats are so customizable that they're all pretty much one off boats).

Really aside from Hull shape and a few basic options on layout (playpen bow vs. walkthrough) there's not a lot to wake boats that couldn't be made "vanilla" if that meant dropping the prices.

Just pick the least expensive bow option, and offer 3 color choices and be done with it. Choice 1: Blue/Gray. Choice 2: Red/Gray Choice 3: Black Gray.

Sounds boring! lol

When it comes to cars and I am spending top level money like 50-60,000 it better have a few things that make it stand out from others. I would hate it if I spent 55000 on a boat and I saw 2 or 3 of the same boat at the lake. I think it doesnt have to be cookie cutter boats to make it cheaper. I think you can actually automate customizations. They do it with cars and trucks, 4 engines, 3-4 different stereos, 3-4 diff interiors, 20 different color combos,... The reason boat companies dont now is because these are still relatively small companies. The auto industry is bringing in 100 times the money these guys are. They have the capital at any time to develop and build new automation, plus they rake in tons in stock purchases. They own their own credit companies! If boat companies had the capital, they would Henry Ford everything and do a 4-5 year cycle for model years. Plus they dont have to people are still buying the 50-120K boats. More profit to use for new tech to go into the new 180K boats.

The bottom line is that boats are expensive because any Joe Schmoe can get a 20 year recreational loan to by a boat or RV... Companies dont need to automate to lower cost. Cars can only get a 6 year loan max usually. Monthly cost is the same for a $40000 car and a $120000 boat! People are basically ok with renting a boat for low monthly costs. We love our monthly payments in the US!

Same reason college is so expensive. Easy to get 120000 in loans to pay for it! That usually also take 20 years to pay off.

trayson
02-12-2016, 06:18 PM
Sounds boring! lol

When it comes to cars and I am spending top level money like 50-60,000 it better have a few things that make it stand out from others. I would hate it if I spent 55000 on a boat and I saw 2 or 3 of the same boat at the lake. I think it doesnt have to be cookie cutter boats to make it cheaper. I think you can actually automate customizations. They do it with cars and trucks, 4 engines, 3-4 different stereos, 3-4 diff interiors, 20 different color combos,... The reason boat companies dont now is because these are still relatively small companies. The auto industry is bringing in 100 times the money these guys are. They have the capital at any time to develop and build new automation, plus they rake in tons in stock purchases. They own their own credit companies! If boat companies had the capital, they would Henry Ford everything and do a 4-5 year cycle for model years. Plus they dont have to people are still buying the 50-120K boats. More profit to use for new tech to go into the new 180K boats.

The bottom line is that boats are expensive because any Joe Schmoe can get a 20 year recreational loan to by a boat or RV... Companies dont need to automate to lower cost. Cars can only get a 6 year loan max usually. Monthly cost is the same for a $40000 car and a $120000 boat! People are basically ok with renting a boat for low monthly costs. We love our monthly payments in the US!

Same reason college is so expensive. Easy to get 120000 in loans to pay for it! That usually also take 20 years to pay off.

But a $55k boat is like a $25 to $30k car. and your expectations on that level of kia/hundyai/econobox isn't the same as on an M-series BMW. We're talking about what it would take to make a $40k boat (which would be comparable to producing a $15k car), so to do it, standardization would be fine.

That said, you're spot on with your points. I remember back around 2000 my buddy got a top of the line Sport Nautique custom built for him and it was under $30k. Around that time, they started that shift to V-drives and also started the shift to "if we build it more expensive, people will buy it". It was the boom of the economy and they realized that they could just keep upping the tech and luxury on boats and people would simply throw down more money (for the reasons you just described). So yeah, I completely agree with you that the boat companies have NO incentive to break out into a "bargain" $40k market right now, because they're selling a reasonable number of boats at the inflated/ridiculous prices, so they don't care.

And also there's the whole buyer appeal. We're using the Moomba Boomarang as our model for the bare bones "function over form" boat. I remember back in the late 90's and early 2000's when the Moomba Boomarangs came out. I turned my nose up at them. They were unattractive, minimalist and just didn't hold a candle to the MB Sports and Nautique boats I was fortunate enough to get to ride behind regularly. I told myself that I'd NEVER own one, and find it incredibly ironic that I'm in a Moomba now (albeit my XLV is WAY nicer with plenty of creature comforts so I don't feel like I'm in a VW Bug on the water). That said, how many people would even WANT a stripped down wake boat? Bayliner certainly didn't dominate the market with their V-drive and DD wake boats. I mean, even though you can get a used Bayliner Wake Challenger for $15k used really easily, most people just don't want them and would rather spend the $25k it takes to get a more attractive brand (even if from a functional perspective, they're the same).

So yeah, I think Bayliner could bring out its Wake Challenger again for $40k, but I don't see them doing it.

sandm
02-13-2016, 03:36 PM
problem with bayliner is that they might stick a vdrive in a boat, but won't listen to the market to figure out what else they need to make it successful.

sticking with the bmw example, you can go buy a new m3 for 70k. or for 50% less, you can buy a sti, an evo or a focus rs that are all well built cars, albeit missing some of the luxury bells and whistles, but all 3 will pretty much either equal or best an m3 in performance, which is why they all sell.
if bayliner, or other xyz boat builder, is going to compete with the market, lose some of the bells and whistles, but the performance still needs to be equal to what their target boat is. my guess is the original wake challenger didn't hold a candle to it's competition. the other piece is marketing/advertising/dealers. you have to get the word out and dealers have to demo and sell against the big brands. most of the salesmen I have talked to at boat shows over the years at the bayliner booth don't know $hit about wakeboats as they don't sell against them. if you put a boat on the floor, you have to know how to sell and how to demo.

we are held captive to ever-increasing wakeboat prices due, as trayson points, out, to the only other avenue being the used market and with 20 year loans, new are "affordable". if the financial market crashes again or loans are reduced to 10 years, the market will adjust and we will see a 40k wakeboat.

MJHSupra
02-16-2016, 12:08 AM
For a 40K boat (no trailer), that would have some cheap azz 'core' stuff on it. I do not see it out of the current wake boat companies. I also don't see XYZ Company selling a 40K boat for the items Trayson mentioned above.

I watched them build the big brands. A company like SC is a small company. I've been to auto plants before, can't compare the manufacturing process. Assume you were ready to build:
1) 2016 SE
2) 2016 Craz
3) 2016 40K Surf Boat
Do you think the build time (labor cost) is that short on a 40K boat vs SE or Craz?
Each one that comes off the lines get the plant "indirect cost" of running the company.

I agree. I would not think another company like a XYZ Company would get into a market they do not sell to. The market share is only so big for wake boats. They have to compete with the other big brands. The setup cost would be huge to be able to make MANY cheap boats coming off the line one after another.

MJHSupra
02-16-2016, 09:34 PM
Caught this link over on WakeWorld - $39,900

Bryant Boats debuting 18-foot model designed for millennials
Posted on June 24th, 2015
Written by Reagan Haynes

A new model called the Wake Tractor is part of a brand-new company making boats that will be geared to millennials.

The Wake Tractor will be made by Bryant Boats, but will be its own brand, according to brand manager Ben Dorton, 26, who will be the face of the new line.

“Our whole approach to this boat company is that millennials are calling the shots on this boat,” Dorton told Trade Only Today.

In 2013, John Dorton, Ben’s father and the chairman at Bryant, partnered with Lawrence Technological University, a Detroit-area design school, and with Andrew Hanzel, a professor of industrial design there. Hanzel, who has deep design roots in the auto industry with General Motors, tasked his class of 19- to 24-year-olds with creating a boat that appealed to them.

That was how the concept for the Wake Tractor began. The boat, which will be part of a company for which the name has not yet been determined, will be launched at Surf Expo in September.

“It’s all about the wake,” John Dorton said. “The wake and the music.”

The 18-foot boat will have a 21-foot boat’s wake because it has the same amount of hull in the water as a 21-footer, John Dorton said. It’s built for six passengers, which gave designers more ballast capacity and made for more versatile interior space. It’s powered with a 5.7L engine from Crusader, one of Correct Craft’s latest purchases.

A professional wakeboarder, Ben Dorton said the boat produces a good wake, which was crucial for its success with his demographic.

When designing the boat, Bryant tried to do three things.

“We saw a demand for a rugged boat,” he said. “It had to be able to be stored, clean easy, trailer easy. There are a few things we’ve done on the exterior to offer protective surfaces instead of gelcoat that can scratch really easily. So when they rub up against the docks, it won’t faze the finish. The interior vinyls are really dense, so they have no chance of tearing, scuffing, scratching when your friends jump on the boats with a 12-pack and their shoes on.”

“We knew we had to make the boat lighter and easier to store so they can tow it with their Xterra,” Ben Dorton said. “And we knew we’ve got to hit a price point where they were comfortable buying it.”

The Wake Tractor is set to retail for $39,900 with the trailer, tower, bimini top, speed control ballast and music system.

“We designed a lot of content out that’s not important to this group,” the elder Dorton said. “It’s a good-looking boat. You just won’t miss it. The boat’s a head turner. But there are significant content pieces in traditional boats that aren’t in this one.”

And as important, the Wake Tractor opens up a whole new realm to enable people to connect via social media, Ben Dorton said, using Wi-Fi, Bluetooth and video integration with monitors.

“We knew we had to make it become that tool to communicate with friends,” he said. “They can connect GoPros to the tablet at the helm and record the ride. And when they’re done after, they can share it with everyone.”

The Wi-Fi-based boat will be driven off a smart tablet, where all of the gauge readings will be displayed. It will have Bluetooth connected to the system so the stereo head unit can be eliminated.

A proprietary docking system in future boats will allow the Wake Tractor to dock in a uniquely social way, John Dorton said. “If you’re not in a Wake Tractor, you won’t fit so well, if you can imagine four or five Wake Tractors floating on this dock on a busy day. Maybe you take turns on whose boat gets used for riding. From space it would look like a snowflake or a floating molecule.”

The Dortons also see the Wake Tractor appealing to Gen Xers, and even baby boomers looking for second or third boats. But the design is geared to the Gen Y group, John Dorton said.

“We need to keep those millennials to continue to love boating.”

viking
02-16-2016, 09:46 PM
^^ there is an update to that thread ^^
Looks now like Bryant has started a new V-drive arm called HeyDay Inboards.
Don't think you can get one for under $40K? Could be wrong but one for sale in Austin http://www.austinboats.com/pre_owned...sp?veh=4510106 No Listing price but $55786 is MSRP. Doubt they will drop 30%?
Either way it's too much $$ and not my cup of tea.

one thing for sure is that it is FUGLY

KG's Supra24
02-16-2016, 10:08 PM
Either way it's too much $$ and not my cup of tea.

Not even if you could dock it like a snowflake?

It seems over thought to me. It's a very nontraditional way use a boat. Could be a tough sell.

The marketing verbiage makes me feel old. I doubt you find me owning a boat with this decal ....

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/16/02/16/70b2d3f60b319d7652c9db98007d87f0.jpg

Sent from my SM-G928V using Tapatalk

trayson
02-16-2016, 10:33 PM
Caught this link over on WakeWorld - $39,900

Bryant Boats debuting 18-foot model designed for millennials
Posted on June 24th, 2015
Written by Reagan Haynes

A new model called the Wake Tractor is part of a brand-new company making boats that will be geared to millennials.

The Wake Tractor will be made by Bryant Boats, but will be its own brand, according to brand manager Ben Dorton, 26, who will be the face of the new line.

“Our whole approach to this boat company is that millennials are calling the shots on this boat,” Dorton told Trade Only Today.

In 2013, John Dorton, Ben’s father and the chairman at Bryant, partnered with Lawrence Technological University, a Detroit-area design school, and with Andrew Hanzel, a professor of industrial design there. Hanzel, who has deep design roots in the auto industry with General Motors, tasked his class of 19- to 24-year-olds with creating a boat that appealed to them.

That was how the concept for the Wake Tractor began. The boat, which will be part of a company for which the name has not yet been determined, will be launched at Surf Expo in September.

“It’s all about the wake,” John Dorton said. “The wake and the music.”

The 18-foot boat will have a 21-foot boat’s wake because it has the same amount of hull in the water as a 21-footer, John Dorton said. It’s built for six passengers, which gave designers more ballast capacity and made for more versatile interior space. It’s powered with a 5.7L engine from Crusader, one of Correct Craft’s latest purchases.

A professional wakeboarder, Ben Dorton said the boat produces a good wake, which was crucial for its success with his demographic.

When designing the boat, Bryant tried to do three things.

“We saw a demand for a rugged boat,” he said. “It had to be able to be stored, clean easy, trailer easy. There are a few things we’ve done on the exterior to offer protective surfaces instead of gelcoat that can scratch really easily. So when they rub up against the docks, it won’t faze the finish. The interior vinyls are really dense, so they have no chance of tearing, scuffing, scratching when your friends jump on the boats with a 12-pack and their shoes on.”

“We knew we had to make the boat lighter and easier to store so they can tow it with their Xterra,” Ben Dorton said. “And we knew we’ve got to hit a price point where they were comfortable buying it.”

The Wake Tractor is set to retail for $39,900 with the trailer, tower, bimini top, speed control ballast and music system.

“We designed a lot of content out that’s not important to this group,” the elder Dorton said. “It’s a good-looking boat. You just won’t miss it. The boat’s a head turner. But there are significant content pieces in traditional boats that aren’t in this one.”

And as important, the Wake Tractor opens up a whole new realm to enable people to connect via social media, Ben Dorton said, using Wi-Fi, Bluetooth and video integration with monitors.

“We knew we had to make it become that tool to communicate with friends,” he said. “They can connect GoPros to the tablet at the helm and record the ride. And when they’re done after, they can share it with everyone.”

The Wi-Fi-based boat will be driven off a smart tablet, where all of the gauge readings will be displayed. It will have Bluetooth connected to the system so the stereo head unit can be eliminated.

A proprietary docking system in future boats will allow the Wake Tractor to dock in a uniquely social way, John Dorton said. “If you’re not in a Wake Tractor, you won’t fit so well, if you can imagine four or five Wake Tractors floating on this dock on a busy day. Maybe you take turns on whose boat gets used for riding. From space it would look like a snowflake or a floating molecule.”

The Dortons also see the Wake Tractor appealing to Gen Xers, and even baby boomers looking for second or third boats. But the design is geared to the Gen Y group, John Dorton said.

“We need to keep those millennials to continue to love boating.”

yep, that is the one I mentioned 4 days ago. hehe. i saw one in person at the Portland boat show. fugly. no thanks. for that price, I would buy my XLV used like I did and have $10k left over for mods! and have a 23 foot boat vs an 18 foot boat that looks like an I/O had a special needs baby with a seadoo sportster...

sivs1
02-17-2016, 08:14 AM
so I guess you can buy a wake boat for $40k. The wife saw one at the boat show and asked what the hell that was. Looked at it briefly but it was next to something else I wanted to see, so got distracted and didn't pay much attention.

MJHSupra
02-17-2016, 08:57 AM
yep, that is the one I mentioned 4 days ago. hehe. i saw one in person at the Portland boat show. fugly. no thanks. for that price, I would buy my XLV used like I did and have $10k left over for mods! and have a 23 foot boat vs an 18 foot boat that looks like an I/O had a special needs baby with a seadoo sportster...

I did the same thing with my 22' SSV. I want to see one of these 40K boats. Hope they have one at the boat show in 2 weeks.

trayson
02-17-2016, 11:18 AM
I did the same thing with my 22' SSV. I want to see one of these 40K boats. Hope they have one at the boat show in 2 weeks.

The interior has a center driver seat, with no real windshield. the rest of the "seats" are all modular with various flip up backrests and stuff.
http://www.alliancewake.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/WakeTractor_SurfExpo15-2-533x800.jpg
Supposedly seating for 8.
http://cd8ba0b44a15c10065fd-24461f391e20b7336331d5789078af53.r23.cf1.rackcdn.c om/ballofspray.vanillaforums.com/editor/6w/sg39a8wgmhsr.jpg

It's a big wedge for the hull.
http://i835.photobucket.com/albums/zz279/begarrett/7a412dc89ef192409765af276040098b_zpskpqu1q02.jpg
The stereo is a wetsounds BT soundbar.


https://vimeo.com/140099214

dru1974
02-17-2016, 11:39 AM
That there is one ugly boat.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

viking
02-17-2016, 11:43 AM
That there is one ugly boat.


You got that right..........but ugly girls need some luvin too

sandm
02-17-2016, 02:03 PM
lots said the same thing about some of the pickleforks and towers that have come out over the years and most are still in production.

the proof will be in the wake. if it's legit, they might stand a chance of selling, but something tells me that boat will not get a fair shake at an unbiased review due to it not being from a wakeboat maker already and the odd shape/size.

DFTR Josh
02-17-2016, 02:12 PM
Just bring back the old 210 and everybody will be happy. Old being $30,000 brand new...

sivs1
02-17-2016, 02:20 PM
lots said the same thing about some of the pickleforks and towers that have come out over the years and most are still in production.

the proof will be in the wake. if it's legit, they might stand a chance of selling, but something tells me that boat will not get a fair shake at an unbiased review due to it not being from a wakeboat maker already and the odd shape/size.

I liked the picklefork when they came out and still like them, we'll see how the wife likes it when trailering



Just bring back the old 210 and everybody will be happy. Old being $30,000 brand new...

that 30k today might be more like 50k.

bouldozer
03-15-2016, 04:28 PM
I live in quebec canada and for a moomba craz the retail price is about 95 000$ before all tax .... :/