Not Getting Good Push!

[Jwredmon101]

Hey guys I went ahead and traded the 14 Mondo for a 16 Craz... I didn't have a surf system on the Mondo so I just listed the boat to one side and dialed it in that way.... I had a ton of push and could easily get my 280 pound friend riding rope less... I had never rode a surf system boat until I bought this Craz. After riding and messing with the wave I just cant seem to get the push that I had with the smaller Mondo.. Looking for a little help here... I had surf side 900 bag 100% full ... had NON surf 900 bag at 80 percent ,had bow 100 % and wake plate all the way up... Also had the auto flow 2.0 set at 85% on the plate and running 10.5 mph (GPS) . I wondering what everyone else is doing. I find it hard to believe that my little listed Mondo can push harder than my new Craz!

Thanks,
Josh

[07STI]

Did you try the non-surf bag at 100%, or only at 80%? Did you mess around with the wake plate at all?

Couple other questions, as I’m going to be upgrading rear bags and adding an ibs this week:

1) So you have upgraded stock rears to 900s? Do you have room for 1,100s?
2) When you say front, is that the optional 500, or did you put something else in? If so, what weight?

[Jwredmon101]

Tried the wake plate at all levels ... when I say front that means 700 in the hard tank under the floor and the 500 surf bag in the nose... and height wise yes 1100 would fit, length wise .. not a chance ... the 900s are almost to long them selfs.

[Jon]

Jwredmon101,

Where are your passengers placed in the boat?

Also, here are few tips for setting up your boat for wakesurfing with the Auto Flow 2:

Ballast and passenger placement: Rear weight will add to the height of the wave and typically give you more push. Additional bow weight will lengthen the wave but will decrease some of the height. On the Craz I would recommend filling rear ballast 100% on each side and favor a passenger or 2 towards the surf side. If you feel there isn't enough push with all ballast full in the boat, drain the bow bag some to achieve a taller wave with more push. It is also important to keep in mind passenger placement in this equation. Sitting passengers in the rear vs the bow will result in the same way as ballast.
Wakeplate Position: The wakeplate in a higher position will result a taller wave with more push. A lower wakeplate setting will lengthen the wave but you will lose some push.
Speed: Ideal speed will vary based on the amount of ballast and passengers you have in the boat. A slower speed will give you a taller wave with more push. Higher speeds will give you a longer wave. You typically want to speed up some when you have heavy ballast and/or passenger load. I would recommend running between 10.2 and 10.8 mph verified by GPS on the Craz, again depending on your weight configuration.
Auto Flow 2 settings: Much like the wakeplate, the position of the Auto Flow 2 plates can change the shape of the wave. The Craz stock settings are 65% for port side surfing and 75% for starboard side. For reference, 0% is all the way up (not deployed) and 100% is fully deployed. Lower percentages than that of stock will result in a taller wave with more push. Higher percentages than stock will result in a longer, more mellow wave, more ideal for a lighter or skim style rider.

Based on your described setup, what you are looking for, and following the tips above, I would recommend the following:

Speed at 10.4 mph
Ballast 100% in both rear bags and around 60% on the gauge for the front/middle.
Wakeplate all the way up.
Auto Flow 2 settings at 60% for port side and 70% for starboard side surfing.
Passengers number is a variable so I would just start by placing them in the cockpit, again maybe 1 extra person favoring the surf side. If you have a heavy passenger load, distribute some to the bow or fill the bow ballast more.

Hopefully those tips will help you out. Let me know if you have any other questions.

[07STI]

Okay, the 900's and 1,100's I'm looking at are the same length...1,100's are 2" wider and 2" taller than the 900's, so it sounds like I should be able to go with 1,100's.

Based on Zim's (Mike) review of the Craz, I thought all that was needed was larger rear bags. The demo boat he received was using 900's.

It's disappointing to hear that you tried all setups and were still unable to get him going ropeless. Only thing I can think of is trying 1,100's or taking more weight out of the opposite bag.

[Jwredmon101]

Thanks for all the replies.. So what your saying Jon is if I am looking for more push while im surfing the port side ... I need to lower the percentage from 85% to lets say 60 percent in order to create more push?

[Jon]

Yes, lowering the Auto Flow 2 settings will help but that is just one part of the equation. Make sure all other items are set correctly as well. Follow my final suggestions in my post above and you should see good results.

[07STI]

Jwredmon101,

Where are your passengers placed in the boat?

Also, here are few tips for setting up your boat for wakesurfing with the Auto Flow 2:

Ballast and passenger placement: Rear weight will add to the height of the wave and typically give you more push. Additional bow weight will lengthen the wave but will decrease some of the height. On the Craz I would recommend filling rear ballast 100% on each side and favor a passenger or 2 towards the surf side. If you feel there isn't enough push with all ballast full in the boat, drain the bow bag some to achieve a taller wave with more push. It is also important to keep in mind passenger placement in this equation. Sitting passengers in the rear vs the bow will result in the same way as ballast.
Wakeplate Position: The wakeplate in a higher position will result a taller wave with more push. A lower wakeplate setting will lengthen the wave but you will lose some push.
Speed: Ideal speed will vary based on the amount of ballast and passengers you have in the boat. A slower speed will give you a taller wave with more push. Higher speeds will give you a longer wave. You typically want to speed up some when you have heavy ballast and/or passenger load. I would recommend running between 10.2 and 10.8 mph verified by GPS on the Craz, again depending on your weight configuration.
Auto Flow 2 settings: Much like the wakeplate, the position of the Auto Flow 2 plates can change the shape of the wave. The Craz stock settings are 65% for port side surfing and 75% for starboard side. For reference, 0% is all the way up (not deployed) and 100% is fully deployed. Lower percentages than that of stock will result in a taller wave with more push. Higher percentages than stock will result in a longer, more mellow wave, more ideal for a lighter or skim style rider.

Based on your described setup, what you are looking for, and following the tips above, I would recommend the following:

Speed at 10.4 mph
Ballast 100% in both rear bags and around 60% on the gauge for the front/middle.
Wakeplate all the way up.
Auto Flow 2 settings at 60% for port side and 70% for starboard side surfing.
Passengers number is a variable so I would just start by placing them in the cockpit, again maybe 1 extra person favoring the surf side. If you have a heavy passenger load, distribute some to the bow or fill the bow ballast more.

Hopefully those tips will help you out. Let me know if you have any other questions.

Great info.

I'm a little confused about the bow bag though. My Craz did not come with the optional 500# bow bag. Based on what you've noted, if I had the 500# bow bag, that would really only serve to lengthen the wave and not provide much push (all other things being the same as stock). So is the bow bag really needed? If I upgrade rear bags, that should increase the height and corresponding push. However, if I also add weight to the bow, that will lengthen the wave and make it shorter (height perspective)...essentially counteracting the increased rear ballast?

My hope is that if I go from 650's in the back to 1,100's, but also add 650 to the front, the net 300# increase in the back will be enough to keep a relatively long wave, but also increase height/push. I'll have the ability to reduce the front weight if needed, as well as adjust the autoflow setting.

Do you have any recommendations for upgrading the bags?

Thanks

[Jon]

07STI,

I would highly recommend adding the bow bag for surfing, especially if you are upgrading the rear bags to 1,100's. If you were to fill the 1,100's full and have 6-7 people all sitting in the cockpit area, that is too much rear weight. You will want to add bow weight to lengthen the wave and get the bow down. With surfing it's all about finding YOUR perfect combination of length and height on a wave. I stress the YOUR part because different riders are looking for different waves. Beginners want a tall wave with tons of push for learning. More advanced riders typically want a big wave with a longer wave face for tricks. Over time you will find that perfect combination of rear and bow weight that will work best for you.

[07STI]

Sounds good. I appreciate the feedback and that all makes sense. This info should really be stickied somewhere...Or put into a manual that comes with the boat.

[sandm]

jon,
was on sti's boat this weekend. wave was short-ish in height and not much push but tons of potential tho based on the initial shape and curl it had :)
you mention the autoflow settings at 60 and 70%. are those adjustable or do you just flip the switch from side to side? an adjustment in the lcd screen possibly?
good info to help dial it in.

[Jon]

sandm,

Yes, both with the Auto Flow and the Auto Flow 2 you can adjust the percentage using the Digital Cruise Pro 2 Screen. You press Menu, then go into Vessel Settings. On that screen you see the percentages for port side and starboard side surfing. You can adjust these percentages by 5% at a time. The cool thing is you can do this while running. What I like to do is set my speed, ballast, wakeplate, etc, then get the boat up to speed. Once up to speed, go into Vessel Settings and start adjusting while looking at the wave. You will definitely see it when you know it's good. Again, lower percentages than factory position makes the wave steeper and taller while higher percentages make the wave longer and more mellow.

[sandm]

good to know.
is the dig. cruise set up to have auto select buttons for surf and skim? in other words multiple presets? since you list surf riders might want one setting and skim riders might want a different setting.

thx.

[Jon]

No presets on the Moombas. You will just flip the switch to the side you surf on and then can modify all the variables on the boat to shape for more of a skim or surf style wave.


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[goose]

I will jump in on this thread also....

On the one comment about the bow bag, I think sometimes people get confused on how bow ballast and rear ballast work together. I think some people view the boat as a teeter-totter or see saw, where if you add weight in the bow, then it automatically takes away from weight in the rear. That isn't exactly how it works. Adding weight anywhere in the boat displaces more water. That displaced water eventually leads to the wave or wake created by the running surface. So, if you have 2000 lbs in the rear of the boat and you add 1000 lbs to the front, the boat is going to displace the weight of the boat, plus the 3000lbs of extra weight. If you don't have the 1000 lbs of weight in the front, then you are not going to displace as much water and the wave or wake will be smaller. The shape of the wake or wave is dictated by the angle of the boat moving through the water and where that weight is in the boat dictates that angle. So, yes, in some aspects, the weight in the front and the weight in the back can conteract the overall angle, but the overall amount of boat weight moving through the water is a combination of the front and rear ballast. Not sure if that makes sense in how I described it, but that is why front and rear weight is important. Plus, as Jon said, having the front bag also helps when you have too many passengers all sitting in the rear. When you have too much rear weight, the angle of the boat is too steep and if the angle is too steep, then the wave will be too steep and eventually curl over. In the opposite manner, if you have too much weight in the front, then the angle of the boat will not be steep enough and the wave will be super long, but it will have no push. In regards to the AutoFlow plates and wakeplate, if you have too much weight in the front or the rear, then the plates can NOT overcome the ballast effects and the wave or wake might not be able to clean up without first fixing the ballast location.

Ok, I am not sure if that helps or hurts, but hopefully that, along with Jon's comments and suggestions should help get you guys dialed in with these new systems.

[07STI]

Matt - That does all make sense and I appreciate the feedback. With all the different factors (front/center weight, rear weight, speed, rear weight, and weight/location of passengers), it's just tough to try to translate that all together. We'll have to continue playing around and try to get some real-world data into a thread.

[BamaMojo]

Great info.

I'm a little confused about the bow bag though. My Craz did not come with the optional 500# bow bag. Based on what you've noted, if I had the 500# bow bag, that would really only serve to lengthen the wave and not provide much push (all other things being the same as stock). So is the bow bag really needed? If I upgrade rear bags, that should increase the height and corresponding push. However, if I also add weight to the bow, that will lengthen the wave and make it shorter (height perspective)...essentially counteracting the increased rear ballast?

My hope is that if I go from 650's in the back to 1,100's, but also add 650 to the front, the net 300# increase in the back will be enough to keep a relatively long wave, but also increase height/push. I'll have the ability to reduce the front weight if needed, as well as adjust the autoflow setting.

Do you have any recommendations for upgrading the bags?

Thanks

Go as heavy in the bow as possible. I have a sumo 750 in my Mojo, I also add 400 on top as well.


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[goose]

It definitely is a challenge trying to get all the variables together and it might take a little trial and error to get it all dialed in, but actually the process of dialing it in will help you in the long run. I tell my son all the time that sometimes success comes from failure, and by getting it wrong and then seeing how you adjust one variable changes things, it will help you as you start adding more passengers or when you are on someone elses boat. Good luck and keep us posted with how it all turns out.

[07STI]

Will do. I am looking forward to it and it's great to have a better overall understanding of how the variables interact. With knowing at least 2 of the variables (rears at 100% and speed around 10.5), that significantly decreases the # of combinations we need to play with.

[Isaguel]

I was also entertaining the idea of upgrading the rear bags in my mojo, to 1000 lb bags. I have a question. Right now, to my surprise, the digital display that shows the level of water in the bags is pretty accurate. If i put bigger bags in, does that mean the digital fill gauge will be off by 250 lbs? Do you adjust the settings somehow on the display?

[jeamk03]

I was also entertaining the idea of upgrading the rear bags in my mojo, to 1000 lb bags. I have a question. Right now, to my surprise, the digital display that shows the level of water in the bags is pretty accurate. If i put bigger bags in, does that mean the digital fill gauge will be off by 250 lbs? Do you adjust the settings somehow on the display?
You can adjust fill and drain times under vessel menu I think. I want to say you can adjust in 10 second increments. Took me all of 3 mins when I swapped out my 650s for 1100s. Figure about 1 min per 100 lbs to start.

Wakemakers has the upgrade package for Mojo. 10 min swap. Really easy.

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[07STI]

I purchased 1,100's for the rear and a 750 ibs today. Hoping to get them swapped out/installed within the next 10-14 days depending on shipping. I'll post results as soon as I have them. I'll also post what we find to be the best setup (weight up front/center, speed, and tab settings...I'll keep the rear bags full at 1,100 each side).

[cfdrews12]

Anyone tell me where you change the settings for the Percentage on Surf Plate? Also, my Craz is 4 mph off on the digital readout. Anyone know how to re-calibrate the digital speed reading?

Any help would be appreciated.....